Endus's Sarm S4 (lyons) log

[endus]

Warning - this post is long and I'm letting you know up front that I'm not the greatest wordsmith nor a grammatical cop.



This is 8th day from start of my SARM S4 cycle (10/31/09) and I believe I have enough data/observations to start a log at this point - hope you find it useful.

First my stat -

Age 44 - really ugly fat bastard

Weight 200

BF - 20% been on cutting cycle, started at 25% and hope to gp down to 15% or less.

Previous cycles - done Test E in my mid 30's and finished Bold/Havoc PH cycle this past Aug.

known Issues - I have a right elbow tendinitis and a left knee (runners knee) pain. The right elbow pain only affect certain movements (specific bicep workout or upright row are tough) but does not interfere with any other movements. No problem with leg movement for any exercises.

Point of interest - I was primarily interested in SARM S4 for a TRT application. It seem to have all of the plus without the side effect. If this doesn't work, I'm going to start a Test E cycle first, then probably TRT later on. By the way, I did take a picture of myself but after seeing how some of you guys are so in shape, I'm just to self conscious to post. I hope to post when I reach my goal - hope you understand.

So from my college chem/bio days, here's entry from my lab journal (I'm the test mice),

Pre - start:

Ordered from Lyon on Tuesday night, delivered on Saturday morning (10/31). No delivery notice was sent to my email account but I've check their website (login required) and it showed the tracking info - so I knew when it was going to be here.

Day 1 thru 3:

No effect. Dosage was 50mg divided into 3 un-equal doses (1ml = 50mg, 1/4 ml at 9:00am, 1/2 ml at 4:30 pm and 1/4 ml at 11:00pm) The mixture has slight hint of menthol with head scalping benzene taste. Yuck. Its really good to have a small treat like candy or chocolate to get rid of the awful taste.

Day 4:

No effect. I did noticed a slight dizziness immediately after 5:00pm and 11:00pm doses.

Day 5:

No day time effect. Had a great shoulder workout and increased my seated shoulder press by 20lb. I can't attribute this to SARM as this is happens to me occasionally with burst of energy/strength. We'll see if next week's shoulder workout will confirm this strength increase.

Panic Attack? After taking my last dose, I had my first vision problem. The vision toward either side was severely limited and had a bit of panic attack as it was quite severe or was not expecting it at this point. Its a very eery feeling where you could see things in front of you but limited in field of vision to the side and its blurred. I've lay ed on my bed feeling panicked but by 2:00am, the effect have subsided a bit. Fell a sleep after that.

Day 6:

I haven't noticed anything special during the day. I've did noticed that everything is much more yellower than normal. Didn't pay particular attention to this effect. The night vision effect is still present but not as severe as yesterday.

The vision issue is not constant. It seems to come and go. At most, I'm feeling it for about 1/2 hour, then everything is fine. And later, get slight less severe then disappear again.

The last dose (11:00pm) wasn't as bad as yesterday but I definitely do notice something right after taking SARM. Sort of bit dizzness then vision is changed - blurred, and bit later, night vision issue.

Note: based on half-life discussion on the board, I'm thinking if changing the dose frequency will have any effect. I will try something different tomorrow to see if it does.

Day 7:

I've decided to change the frequency to twice a day instead of three. Today, I will be taking 9:00am and 5:00pmdoses and skip the 11:00pm dose - Still 50mg/2x total.

I took the last dose at 4:30pm.

Around 6:30pm, I went shopping with my wife and on the way back at 7:20pm, on a particularly dark street, I couldn't see my wife sitting right next to me. This is very dis-heartening.

At 9:00pm, I had to go out again on same streets and I did not have any issue with side vision.

Note/Conjecture - this is probably a good point for discussion about half life. I think there is a very specific active period for SARM (Lyon's version anyway). This is based on how it affect my vision at certain time after each dose. I hope others could duplicate this scenario to see if effect is same.

Noticed yellow tint is present at all time.

At 11:00pm I did not notice any vision issue. Slightly blurry at times, but nothing like day 4-5.

I was going to take another dose at 11:00pm to see if symptom will return but didn't want to risk it. The vision problem will be issue for many people and if it gets more severe, I will probably terminate this cycle - lets hope not.

Day 8 - Today, I've decided to change the frequency again - to once a day. I took the only dose of 50mg at 9:30am. Today was off day.

Noticed slight blurring but nothing that couldn't be handled. No yellow tint all day but came back around 4:40pm (right around when sun is nearly gone). By 5:10pm, the tint was severe (outside was dark at this point).

The night vision - other than slight blurriness, it was fine (thank god). Again, I think there's definitely half life issue that could be worked out so that night vision issue can be minimized. For example, if I could figure out when to take it so that it will still be active for my work out session but be past the half life point by time evening comes around. I hope someone else could duplicate this - I will try more next week to see if there's optimal time.

Note: my joint/tendinitis issue is about same or actually got worst.

Edit - I forgot, I got some Acne problem yesterday/today. I've noticed that I'm getting mild acne under my chin and on my chest. I don't usually get Acne, so I assume this is from SARM? I haven't read this issue before. Got some benzoil pad to deal with this issue.

Well, that it for now. Next week will be interesting as SARM has already taken effect on my body (vision wise anyway). Tomorrow is my chest day - I hope I could lift 1000lb

Cheers!

[bass]

endus, this is the first I’ve heard vision sides from 50mgs per day, mine was gradual and never reversed, basically it kept getting worse every day. Even now that my vision is coming back its gradual, not sure why yours comes and goes! Anyway, i hope you can finish your cycle and get some good results. I’ll be watching...and for your joint (I am assuming your elbow) try this technique and see if it helps, look at my post with illustration photos…Forearm pain

BTW, i was timid to post my photo as well, but thought it was important to show people so they can give me their opinion of my progress...

[endus]

endus, this is the first I’ve heard vision sides from 50mgs per day, mine was gradual and never reversed, basically it kept getting worse every day. Even now that my vision is coming back its gradual, not sure why yours comes and goes! Anyway, i hope you can finish your cycle and get some good results. I’ll be watching...and for your joint (I am assuming your elbow) try this technique and see if it helps, look at my post with illustration photos…Forearm pain

BTW, i was timid to post my photo as well, but thought it was important to show people so they can give me their opinion of my progress...

Thanks for the info on joint issue.

The vision problem is actually getting worst. I had a hard time driving home today - field of view is cut in half where outer half is dark gray. If vision problem gets any worst, I will have to stop as its too dangerous to drive on busy highway at night. Yes I could see things in front but its the side and further out that worries me.

As for strength gain or whatnot, I haven't felt it yet. My workout tonight was good but nothing that would indicate I'm using something more than a OTC supplements like creatine or Arginine-K type. Maybe its still too early? There's nothing like that Euphoric feeling you get from AAS gear or even designer gears. When I did Bold/Havoc cycle two months ago, I felt like I could destroy anything.

[endus]

Day 9 Update:

I stuck with single dose to see if it will help with my vision issue (9:30am, 50mg). It actually got worst. The best way to describe my vision issue is - driving with your sunshade down. My field of view is restricted. Its not a true tunnel vision but fairly close. At time its severe enough where it could become issue in busy highway.

Again, the vision issue is not constant. It sort of comes and go but does not fully disappear. I would guess I've lost about 20% of vision capability and yellow tint as constant.

Today was my chest day and my workout was good but no noticeable strength gains.

[elpropiotorvic]

bass did u try to supplement with a vitamin ?

maybe s4 somehow gets rid of it or makes ur body not absorb it fully, and fvcks u up....
endus id give it a shot and report.....btw id give a high dose a shot just to make sure improvements can be measured with a good dose

[bass]

bass did u try to supplement with a vitamin ?

maybe s4 somehow gets rid of it or makes ur body not absorb it fully, and fvcks u up....
endus id give it a shot and report.....btw id give a high dose a shot just to make sure improvements can be measured with a good dose

the only supplement i am taking for joints is Apex Joint support which has glucosamine and chondroitin with MSM...it seems to be helping...

[bass]

Day 9 Update:

I stuck with single dose to see if it will help with my vision issue (9:30am, 50mg). It actually got worst. The best way to describe my vision issue is - driving with your sunshade down. My field of view is restricted. Its not a true tunnel vision but fairly close. At time its severe enough where it could become issue in busy highway.

Again, the vision issue is not constant. It sort of comes and go but does not fully disappear. I would guess I've lost about 20% of vision capability and yellow tint as constant.

Today was my chest day and my workout was good but no noticeable strength gains.

Endus, really sorry to hear about your vision, i hope you find a way to work around it...

[endus]

bass did u try to supplement with a vitamin ?

maybe s4 somehow gets rid of it or makes ur body not absorb it fully, and fvcks u up....
endus id give it a shot and report.....btw id give a high dose a shot just to make sure improvements can be measured with a good dose

I will actually be doing that - to 100mg today. I already got the vision problem, may as well to see if higher dose will actually do anything with the strength.

Again, if this compound does anything, you don't feel it like AAS or prohormone. There's none of that Euphoric or invincible feeling. When I was on my last cycle, I actually had to limit my weight because I knew it could be trouble on my joints.

The vision side is bit too much - I just don't know how you could function with reduced night vision. Its enough to affect even going to a local convenient store and I go there a lot during the night.

[Okinawa_Power]

I will actually be doing that - to 100mg today. I already got the vision problem, may as well to see if higher dose will actually do anything with the strength.

Again, if this compound does anything, you don't feel it like AAS or prohormone. There's none of that Euphoric or invincible feeling. When I was on my last cycle, I actually had to limit my weight because I knew it could be trouble on my joints.

The vision side is bit too much - I just don't know how you could function with reduced night vision. Its enough to affect even going to a local convenient store and I go there a lot during the night.

That is why i'm taking it with a prohormone......I just want it to help out with my sore joints......I am having issues with vision also.....At night can't see to far in front of me and the sides are like gone....Sucks but I only have 25 more days......I think I can hack it.......

[endus]

Endus, really sorry to hear about your vision, i hope you find a way to work around it...

I really do hope so Bass. Will try few more things including increasing dosage to see if at least my strength will go up.

[endus]

That is why i'm taking it with a prohormone......I just want it to help out with my sore joints......I am having issues with vision also.....At night can't see to far in front of me and the sides are like gone....Sucks but I only have 25 more days......I think I can hack it.......

I wished I could of too but I'm in between cycle. I was losing BF to do a test E cycle in Jan and will do that anyway if I terminate this early.

The whole reason why I've started my dose low was to keep the vision issue away and to see if I could do this for 10-12 weeks (like AAS cycle). I guess thats now out of question

Be careful driving at night, the capability is really reduced and your reaction time is affected - which I found out yesterday while driving home. I was lucky and only got honked !

[elpropiotorvic]

Okinawa why don't u give a vitamin a shot ... And see if it helps...

[endus]

Okinawa why don't u give a vitamin a shot ... And see if it helps...

What do you mean by that - multi-vitamin ? Did it work for you? Thanks

[elpropiotorvic]

I mean vitamin A , which is used to make visual pigments in the eyes

try a good dose to see if vision improves

[endus]

I mean vitamin A , which is used to make visual pigments in the eyes

try a good dose to see if vision improves

It doesn't seem to do any good - one of the vet from another board mentioned that he tried lutien and bilberry and it also didn't helped any.

[Okinawa_Power]

Okinawa why don't u give a vitamin a shot ... And see if it helps...

Elpropiotorvic I will give it a try. Thanks for bringing it up, it can't hurt.....Thanks again.

[elpropiotorvic]

O prob man ^^ but I'm very intrigued as to what exactly causes the vision it would be great if they could modify the product

[endus]

O prob man ^^ but I'm very intrigued as to what exactly causes the vision it would be great if they could modify the product

I been doing heck of lot of reading in many boards and conclusion is - no one knows. There's lot of conjecture but nothing concrete nor anything that worked.

Some are actually saying don't take eye supplements as it accelerate the issue - so confusing and no help. And no one know if there will be any issue in the future (even if symptom goes away after stopping).

[endus]

Day 10 update:

Well I decide to say heck with it and up the dose to 120mg x 2. My vision problem isn't going away and I'm not feeling anything at 50mg.

I worked my back/tri - workout was excellent but nothing that would indicate much strength gain.

The vision problem is still there and is bit more pronounced. The yellow/green tint is near constant - fading out once in a while.

I've been doing lots of reading lately due to the vision problem and I found one log where a guy was doing 5 days on and 2 days off routine and that mitigated some of the vision issue. He is conjecturing that 2 day off is clearing out whatever particle that is binding to his eye. So I may do this routine to see if it helps.

I also have a worst acne issue. I don't usually get acne, even when I was doing AAS or Prohormone. Its on underside of my face (below ear to chin) and on my chest. I'm using a clearcil to combat this but it itch so bad. It is drying out now at this point.

Sorry to be a downer and not make some interesting post about my incredible strength gains or weight loss but its not happening, yet - this vision issue is much greater than I originally thought! I am trying to find a way to stick with the program though. Thanks for reading.

[elpropiotorvic]

The symptoms do go away after stoppage... Everymember from this board that has tried reported it goes away

[endus]

The symptoms do go away after stoppage... Everymember from this board that has tried reported it goes away

I'm not too worry about that - rather, reduced driving capability at night. That would stop me long before any harm done to me. And I'm sort of hypochondriac, so I go overboard with some concerns. Thanks!

Oh I've also tried Visine A (allergy version) and just normal eyedrop and neither helped.

[endus]

I've waited a bit to try few things and here's what has happened since my last post.

As mentioned, I've increased my dosage to 100mg or slightly bit more per day and I think this did the trick. My strength have increased noticeably.

Here's some notables,

Day 11 (Shoulder day) - I typically work my way up to 110lbx6-8 for a shoulder press. Today I was able to do move it up to 160lb x 6. A new record for me. Everything else also went up by about 10%

Day 12 (Leg day) - I was able to add another 50lb (from 290 to 340 x 6) on my squat and leg press (490 to 540lb). I was barely able to walk to my car - a good leg day.

Day 13-15 - rest day

Day 16 - (Chest day) I've actually lost some strength today but I think this was due to a lack of food/carb during the day. I've also did a 30 mile bike ride, so that probably took whatever energy I've had. I did 90x8 dumbell press instead of 100x8. Everything else also went down by 5-10lb. Hopefully it will be better tomorrow when I have a better nutrition.

Other observations - I've noticed a huge increase in libido - which is what I was really after since I was considering TRT at some point in my life. I had a morning wood every day and I normally don't get these at all. So this is indeed a good news for those who are looking at this from a different perspective.

As for the vision problem - most of the symptoms are still there but it has improved quite a bit. The tint seems to come and go and are only bothersome at for short time. At the same time, I got used to slight decrease in night vision and tint - so its definitely livable given the positive vs. negative.

I think this week will be a important gauge for me to see if increased strength is not a fluke. That's about it for now and thanks for reading.

[bass]

great, i am glad it’s finally kicking in, and wow, that’s a great % strength increase...keep us posted

[Okinawa_Power]

I am glad you are working around the vision problem you had....As for the strength increase that is great!!! Keep pounding out those heavy weights!!!!! Post some pictures so we can see the results you are getting.....

[elpropiotorvic]

Aré u still using the eye support thingies ?

[endus]

great, i am glad it’s finally kicking in, and wow, that’s a great % strength increase...keep us posted

Will do - Hopefully it will keep increasing. Thanks!

[endus]

I am glad you are working around the vision problem you had....As for the strength increase that is great!!! Keep pounding out those heavy weights!!!!! Post some pictures so we can see the results you are getting.....

Yeah, the vision thing kind of scared me a bit - I've seemed to got hit badly than most. But its mostly gone now so I could concentrate on more important thing.

I'm taking pics as I go along, just haven't had time to transfer the pics. I'm trying to find one of my old pic so that people know where I started last year.

I'm definitely going to do longer term testing - but next cycle, I'm going to add bunch of orals for mental euphoria that I get from AAS/PH and/or quicker start.

Cheers!

[endus]

Aré u still using the eye support thingies ?

No I have not other than a daily vitamin (multi from Target). The vision actually improved quite a bit when I increased the dosage - weird. Either I got used to the compound or my body adjusted to decreased vision. Either way, its much better than 1st week where I almost stopped.

[endus]

Day 17 - (Back day)

I don't think my strength increase was/is a fluke. After yesterday's bad nutrition (not enough carb), I had plenty today for a workout.

On barbell row, I went from 140lb to 170lbx6 and 200lb to 240lbx6 on cable row.

Day 18 - off day.

I'll have two more days left for Sling-shot routine and next week, I'll be changing things around to a new routine. The new routine is even simpler in that you only do one set per body part. I'm also moving from from 4 day workout to 3 days.

In case you're interested in other aspect/potential of S4 - my libido is insane, its even better than when I was doing PH. All without the side effects. You definitely don't need Viagra. Too bad I'm freaking married (those who's been married long know what I'm talking about) Acne issue is also dissipating - skin is peeling a bit from Oxy but no new ones.

cheers

[bass]

you will post pics, right?

[elpropiotorvic]

i want to get to the bottom of the vision problem...want to know if it goes away with the bloody A vitamin.....someone

[endus]

you will post pics, right?

I will but let me finish the cycle. I'm already self conscious... then comes Okinawa with his monster profile - yikes!

[endus]

i want to get to the bottom of the vision problem...want to know if it goes away with the bloody A vitamin.....someone

I thought Okinawa was doing that. If he's is not, then I will. I still have few more weeks to go. I will most likely finish 100mg cycle on 1st week of Dec. However, I'm still going to test till new year at 20mg. I want to see if 20mg at that point will do anything and/or get rid of vision problem.

I'll get some vitamin A tonight. By the way, why vitamin A? Because retinoid?

[Okinawa_Power]

i want to get to the bottom of the vision problem...want to know if it goes away with the bloody A vitamin.....someone

Vit A not a fix...Been in my system for 7 days now and still seeing the world with a yellow tint.......I took 1500mg of Vit A everyday for the last 7 days.....

[endus]

Vit A not a fix...Been in my system for 7 days now and still seeing the world with a yellow tint.......I took 1500mg of Vit A everyday for the last 7 days.....

Crap - just bought some!

[endus]

Another record - I now don't have any doubt about S4 and strength increase.

Day 19 (shoulder):

I've increase my shoulder press by another 10lb but big increase was on Upright row - I've went up another 20lb!

Day 20 (legs):

This is where I've set a new record. I did my squat at 3 plates like normal but felt light. Did it anyway to failure and did 2 more reps.

The leg press was another matter - I've warmed up with 5 plate and went up to 7 plates and still felt like I could of went another 1/2 plate. I got tired more from loading and unloading the plate.

Another strange thing - other than couple of occasion, everything looked normal. No yellow tint - weird! Again it comes and go but it was wonderful to see normal colors.

One other development - I've decided to hire an online trainer. I found 2 guys - Shelby Starnes or Phil Hernon. Anybody heard of these guys? I seen their transformational stuff and looks amazing. I'm not ready for AAS due to my high fat % or length of workout at this point, so I figure this would be a better course (I know, S4 was done on a whim).

Yes Bass, I'll have to take several pics to send it to these guys so I'll post

Cheers.

[bass]

wow this is great endus, i am glad to see the S4 is working for you, reading your log, big O's (Okinawa_Power ) and Oh Realy makes me look forward to my next cycle...

[lifterjaydawg]

glad to see the S4 is working so well with the strength gains. I should be getting mine at the start of the year and will do a sarms s4 log as well. thanks for all the great information.

[endus]

wow this is great endus, i am glad to see the S4 is working for you, reading your log, big O's (Okinawa_Power ) and Oh Realy makes me look forward to my next cycle...

Thanks - PM sent.

[endus]

glad to see the S4 is working so well with the strength gains. I should be getting mine at the start of the year and will do a sarms s4 log as well. thanks for all the great information.

Thanks - glad bunch of us are logging so others could see. Make it feel little better with research liquid. cheers