Tribulus / Natural Test Boosters

[WOLFCRAFT]

Has anyone tried / had any luck using any of these?

[bladerunner9]

Has anyone tried / had any luck using any of these?

Like ?

[Swifto]

Trib WILL NOT raise total or free testosterone .

[WOLFCRAFT]

Like ?

Vitrix... any of that stuff.

[jimmyinkedup]

cap up some grass clippings from your front yard...will do about as much for test levels as tribulus .....

[RATTLEHEAD]

working out major muscle groups such as the legs will probably do more to boost natural test than tribulus etc. products. The only time i'd take "test boosters" of sorts is after a cycle or something, if your libido isn't up to par yet. I'd take tribulus and maca or something in that case. Other than that, I don't see much of a use for those products.

[whatthehellizthat]

From what I've read, test "boosters" have almost 0 effect on raising 'free' testosterone levels and free test is the only thing we really care about. I agree with Rattlehead, train legs. If that doesn't work add the grass clippings.

[Swifto]

From what I've read, test "boosters" have almost 0 effect on raising 'free' testosterone levels and free test is the only thing we really care about. I agree with Rattlehead, train legs. If that doesn't work add the grass clippings.

Total Testosterone is just as important.

Free T can be increased a number of ways.

PP's Testosterone stack and Sustain Alpha seem to be the only solid products on the market that will raise total T IMHO. Fadogia Agrestis and Vitex may slightly raise LH, but I'm not totally convinced.

Trib and Lj100 are bullshit.

[anaBROLIC]

I am not big on the stuff like the vitrix. i buy a $10 bottle of the cheap stuff (high mg) and get just as good of a test boost.

[ralph4u2c]

Trib. Alatus in our T-bol has proved to be very successful and helped to produce good gains in both strength and mass. i know we are working on some more potent extracts and testing the alatus on its own, which will give better feedback to your question but .... there are many logs and bloodwork proving the effects from Thermolife T-bol. Problem with other forms of trib. were inferior extractions and cheap quality. This along with marketing hype, exaggeration, and false claims/comparisons gave it a bad rep like many other herbs out there.

here are some studies from trib. alatas too:

Free serum testosterone level in male rats treated with Tribulus alatus extracts.
El-Tantawy WH, Temraz A, El-Gindi OD.

Drug Bioavailability Center, National Organization For Drug Control and Research, Cairo, Egypt. [email protected]

OBJECTIVE: The present study was undertaken to investigate the effect of Tribulus alatus extracts on free serum testosterone in male rats. MATERIALS AND METHODS: Free serum testosterone level was measured in male rats treated with alcoholic extracts of the aerial part without fruits, fruits of Tribulus alatus and their fractions. RESULTS: All tested extracts showed significant increase in the level of free serum testosterone when compared to that of corresponding control, p < 0.05. Statistical comparison of all groups revealed that the maximum level was found in groups treated with chloroformic and ethanolic fractions of fruits extract. CONCLUSION: Tribulus alatus extract appears to possess aphrodisiac activity due to its androgen increasing property.
----------------------------------------
Steroidal saponins from the aerial parts of Tribulus alatus Del.
Temraz A, El Gindi OD, Kadry HA, De Tommasi N, Braca A.

Dipartimento di Chimica Bioorganica e Biofarmacia, Università di Pisa, Via Bonanno 33, 56126 Pisa, Italy.

Six steroidal glycosides (1-6) were isolated from the aerial parts of Tribulus alatus Del. (Zygophyllaceae), together with one known cholestane, one spirostane, and six flavonol glycosides. Among them, 1 and 2 possess a furostane-type aglycone, 3 and 6 a cholestane structure, and 4 and 5 a spirostane skeleton. Their structural elucidation was accomplished by extensive spectroscopic methods including 1D ((1)H, (13)C, (13)C DEPT, TOCSY, ROESY) and 2D NMR experiments (DQF-COSY, HSQC, HMBC) as well as ESI-MS analysis.

PMID: 16631216 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[jimmyinkedup]

Trib. Alatus in our T-bol has proved to be very successful and helped to produce good gains in both strength and mass. i know we are working on some more potent extracts and testing the alatus on its own, which will give better feedback to your question but .... there are many logs and bloodwork proving the effects from Thermolife T-bol. Problem with other forms of trib. were inferior extractions and cheap quality. This along with marketing hype, exaggeration, and false claims/comparisons gave it a bad rep like many other herbs out there.

here are some studies from trib. alatas too:

Free serum testosterone level in male rats treated with Tribulus alatus extracts.
El-Tantawy WH, Temraz A, El-Gindi OD.

Drug Bioavailability Center, National Organization For Drug Control and Research, Cairo, Egypt. [email protected]

OBJECTIVE: The present study was undertaken to investigate the effect of Tribulus alatus extracts on free serum testosterone in male rats. MATERIALS AND METHODS: Free serum testosterone level was measured in male rats treated with alcoholic extracts of the aerial part without fruits, fruits of Tribulus alatus and their fractions. RESULTS: All tested extracts showed significant increase in the level of free serum testosterone when compared to that of corresponding control, p < 0.05. Statistical comparison of all groups revealed that the maximum level was found in groups treated with chloroformic and ethanolic fractions of fruits extract. CONCLUSION: Tribulus alatus extract appears to possess aphrodisiac activity due to its androgen increasing property.
----------------------------------------
Steroidal saponins from the aerial parts of Tribulus alatus Del.
Temraz A, El Gindi OD, Kadry HA, De Tommasi N, Braca A.

Dipartimento di Chimica Bioorganica e Biofarmacia, Università di Pisa, Via Bonanno 33, 56126 Pisa, Italy.

Six steroidal glycosides (1-6) were isolated from the aerial parts of Tribulus alatus Del. (Zygophyllaceae), together with one known cholestane, one spirostane, and six flavonol glycosides. Among them, 1 and 2 possess a furostane-type aglycone, 3 and 6 a cholestane structure, and 4 and 5 a spirostane skeleton. Their structural elucidation was accomplished by extensive spectroscopic methods including 1D ((1)H, (13)C, (13)C DEPT, TOCSY, ROESY) and 2D NMR experiments (DQF-COSY, HSQC, HMBC) as well as ESI-MS analysis.

PMID: 16631216 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

pretty meaningless as applied to humans IMO .....

As for the first sentence/paragraph well that is a statement obviously made by the supplement manufacturer ..what do you expect them to say.
Notice dosage and administration method omitted ..and the national organization for drug control and research in cairo egypt has a yahoo webmail address..that makes sense ... possibly edited????? *L*
Here is a perfect example of applying an obscure study ...done on rats..... and implying we as humans will get the same benefits. Shameful.

[ralph4u2c]

What is shameful your prejudgment of a product based on me being a rep. I was a member here for years and many other forums before being a rep for Thermolife.

i guess picking 15 qualified members of a forum between the ages of 21-40+ and having them give their honest opinion of a product is shameless to. to put the icing on the cake, we paid for them to have their hormone levels tested pre, during, and post using the product. When is the last time you saw a company go out on that kind of limb and back up their products......shameful isnt it?

i guess its a shame that many other users have bought, enjoyed, and logged our product all by themselves too. some of them even having blood work by their doctor that shows an increase of 100+ ng/dl in total test, lower estrogen and progesterone levels. these can be all backed up by links to other threads on other forums, just PM me if you would like to view the 10+ threads i have on hand (dont want to break any rules here).

your comment on someone in Egypt having a yahoo account shows how naive you really are. do you think people in a country like Egypt dont have the internet or dont use search engines like Yahoo? the studies i posted are published documents that can be found here.

in conclusion: sorry if you dont like someone to post their honest opinion that is backed by both previous experience and published studies. sorry if you don't like that i am a rep for a company now. last, sorry if you do not like studies done rats, a product is created from these studies, and it is then backed by real world results and bloodwork/science to prove it. what world are you living in bro, if only other companies did this the industry would be a better and safer place. merry christmas fellas

[jimmyinkedup]

1- What is shameful your prejudgment of a product based on me being a rep. I was a member here for years and many other forums before being a rep for Thermolife.

2- i guess picking 15 qualified members of a forum between the ages of 21-40+ and having them give their honest opinion of a product is shameless to. to put the icing on the cake, we paid for them to have their hormone levels tested pre, during, and post using the product. When is the last time you saw a company go out on that kind of limb and back up their products......shameful isnt it?

i of them even having blood work by their doctor that shows an increase of 100+ ng/dl in total test, lower estrogen and progesterone levels. these can be all backed up by links to other threads on other forums, just PM me if you would like to view the 10+ threads i have on hand (dont want to break any rules here). guess its a shame that many other users have bought, enjoyed, and logged our product all by themselves too. some

3-your comment on someone in Egypt having a yahoo account shows how naive you really are. do you think people in a country like Egypt dont have the internet or dont use search engines like Yahoo?
4-the studies i posted are published documents that can be found here.

in conclusion: sorry if you dont like someone to post their honest opinion that is backed by both previous experience and 5-published studies. sorry if you don't like that i am a rep for a company now. last, sorry if you do not like studies done rats, a product is created from these studies, and it is then backed by real world results and 6-bloodwork/science to prove it. what world are you living in bro, if only other companies did this the industry would be a better and safer place. merry christmas fellas

1-*L* i didnt even realize you were the rep....
2- lets see the published results from the independent labs ..including control subjects in study
3- No i think the Drug Bioavailibility Center in Egypt wouldnt have a yahoo webmail as their professional email address
4- The studies are on RATS dude
5- Again on rats - rats are not people ...many drugs and chemicals(compounds) illict responses totally different in rats than in human subjects..bank on it.
6- Lets see it - on humans!

[jimmyinkedup]

1- Tribulus terrestris
by Thomas Incledon, PhD(c), RD, LD/LN, RPT, NSCA-CPT, CSCS
.......The bottom line? Despite the anecdotes, there is no conclusive evidence that Tribulus enhances muscle growth or strength. For now, it is merely a fad. More research must be conducted on healthy people who have no libido or hormonal problems to see if Tribulus truly affects muscle. It must be evaluated both as a stand-alone supplement and in combination with other supplements. And finally, the study results must be peer-reviewed.

References
1. Yan, W., et al., Steroidal saponins from fruits of Tribulus terrestris. Phytochemistry, 1996. 42(5): p. 1417-1422.
2. Wright, J., A Natural Wonder, in Muscle & Fitness. 1996. p. 140-142.
3. Antonio, J., et al., The effects of Tribulus terrestris on body composition and exercise performance in resistance-trained males. International Journal of Sport Nutrition & Exercise Metabolism, 2000. 10(2): p. 208-215.
4. Taskov, M., S. Milano, and A. Maleova, Vitaton: Effect on the concentration of some hormones in the serum of healthy subjects. MBI. Medico-Biologic Information, 1988(1): p. 24-26.
5. Brown, G.A., et al., Effects of anabolic precursors on serum testosterone concentrations and adaptations to resistance training in young men. International Journal of Sport Nutrition & Exercise Metabolism, 2000. 10(3): p. 340-359.
6. Brown, G.A., et al., Endocrine and lipid responses to chronic androstenediol-herbal supplementation in 30 to 58 year old men. Journal of the American College of Nutrition, 2001. 20(5): p. 520-528.


2- It is also claimed that Tribulus terrestris increases testosterone by increasing gonadotropin-releasing hormone[7] (GnRH) which in turn stimulates the production of LH and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH). Testosterone, besides its role in muscle-building and raising fertility and libido, is also known to have a positive effect on bone marrow activity (for red blood cell production) and the immune system.
One recent study found that T. terrestris caused no increase in testosterone or LH in young men,[8] and another found that a commercial supplement containing androstenedione and herbal extracts, including T. terrestris, was no more effective at raising testosterone levels than androstenedione alone.[9]
references
* Germplasm Resources Information Network: Tribulus terrestris
* Flora Europaea: native distribution in Europe
* Page on T. terrestris at the Global Compendium of Weeds
* Page from the U.S. Department of Agriculture's PLANTS database
* Abstract of Brown et al. (2000) at PubMed
* Abstract of Gauthaman, Aidakan, and Prasad (2003) at PubMed
* Abstract of Neychev and Mitev (2005) at PubMed

Should I continue????? These are real life studies on tribulus ...on people! Wait let me guess whats next ....YOUR tribulus is different its standardized for like 80%steroidal sapponins or some BS. Show me the money bro ...real life tests, certified by a reputable independant lab with control subjects and proper coupound evaluation protocol and I MIGHT start to reconsider. Evidence and personal experince say this product is bunk and a waste of money . I understand your a rep...its not your fault the product doesnt do shit ..you dont make it ..u just sell it under false pretences...and hey maybe not... the company may even have you believing the BS and hype. Pharmaceutical companies have derived effective compounds(prescription meds) from plant extracts for years and made amazing profits....do you honestly believe with all the myths surrounding tribulus a human grade pharma company hasnt tried to synthesize it into an effective compound for libido boosting , erectile disfunction , even low dose androgen replacement? If there were ANY truth to these claims they would have succeeded and had a prescription med on the market... but it doesnt work! I work for a pharmaceutical company bro...i can assure if it did .......the process i just described would have taken place . No doubt about it. The ED market is a goldmine..... Im sorry the product IMO is bunk....

[ralph4u2c]

1-*L* i didnt even realize you were the rep....
2- lets see the published results from the independent labs ..including control subjects in study
3- No i think the Drug Bioavailibility Center in Egypt wouldnt have a yahoo webmail as their professional email address
4- The studies are on RATS dude
5- Again on rats - rats are not people ...many drugs and chemicals(compounds) illict responses totally different in rats than in human subjects..bank on it.
6- Lets see it - on humans!

please reread my two previous post as they contain all the information you seek to know. since you didnt get it the first time ill sum them up for you:

1 - obviously i said "we", have the TL logo, and the comment "As for the first sentence/paragraph well that is a statement obviously made by the supplement manufacturer ..what do you expect them to say." This was not written by Thermolife this was written by me personally, from my personal past experiences when dealing with trib.-based products

2 - controlled group you ask for eh? RESULTS: All tested extracts showed significant increase in the level of free serum testosterone when compared to that of corresponding control

3 - Yes studies are done on rats BEFORE humans in almost all cases. whats your point here? This is for the safety of human beings, to get an idea of how the product works, and at what dose to begin alpha test in humans.

4 - Again on rats ... Yes gotta love the rats taking one for the team. I would rather them be the test dummies than my family and friends as some pharmaceutical companies do.

5 - See it on humans you ask? Admin if this violates any rules please delete links and PM me for the links yourself (or search). Here are just a few links to logs, reviews, and independent blood work
proving it works in both humans and rats .... as you asked.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=112542501 (log)
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=111760971 (saliva testing)
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=110987231 (testers home page)
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=112418881 (independent blood work)
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=112376001 (review)
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=109698391 (independent blood work)

6 - We are known quality and innovation as i think it shows. Thank you and have a good Christmas.

[jimmyinkedup]

2 - controlled group you ask for eh? RESULTS: All tested extracts showed significant increase in the level of free serum testosterone when compared to that of corresponding control - My Rsponse:YEAH IN RATS NOT PEOPLE !


Here are just a few links to logs, reviews, and independent blood work
proving it works in both humans and rats .... as you asked.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=112542501 (log)
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=111760971 (saliva testing)
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=110987231 (testers home page)
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=112418881 (independent blood work)
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=112376001 (review)
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=109698391 (independent blood work)

6 - We are known quality and innovation as i think it shows. Thank you and have a good Christmas.[/QUOTE]


My Response:
*L* what a joke 1 independant lab report with no initial lab report to establish baseline...gimme a break bro. I KNOW proper compound testing procedures in and out and this is a joke. The rat study ...is a joke -and anyone with any medical knowledge knows that ... thats early phase research info ..so far from conclusive testing in humans its an insult to peoples intelligence to insinuate it is even comparable. It is sad the myth is perpetuated by people like yourself...who may actually have good intentions but are so misinformed and pay your bills selling this bunk you WANT to believe it. Oh and how dare you compare your testing procedure and infer that its better than pharmaceutical companies because u test on rats not people...by the time testing on people begins more risk factors have be assessed by a pharma company than u can EVER find out from a rat. That is possibly the most assenine statement i ever heard...a downright insult to common sense....

[ralph4u2c]

1- Tribulus terrestris
by Thomas Incledon, PhD(c), RD, LD/LN, RPT, NSCA-CPT, CSCS
.......The bottom line? Despite the anecdotes, there is no conclusive evidence that Tribulus enhances muscle growth or strength. For now, it is merely a fad. More research must be conducted on healthy people who have no libido or hormonal problems to see if Tribulus truly affects muscle. It must be evaluated both as a stand-alone supplement and in combination with other supplements. And finally, the study results must be peer-reviewed.

References
1. Yan, W., et al., Steroidal saponins from fruits of Tribulus terrestris. Phytochemistry, 1996. 42(5): p. 1417-1422.
2. Wright, J., A Natural Wonder, in Muscle & Fitness. 1996. p. 140-142.
3. Antonio, J., et al., The effects of Tribulus terrestris on body composition and exercise performance in resistance-trained males. International Journal of Sport Nutrition & Exercise Metabolism, 2000. 10(2): p. 208-215.
4. Taskov, M., S. Milano, and A. Maleova, Vitaton: Effect on the concentration of some hormones in the serum of healthy subjects. MBI. Medico-Biologic Information, 1988(1): p. 24-26.
5. Brown, G.A., et al., Effects of anabolic precursors on serum testosterone concentrations and adaptations to resistance training in young men. International Journal of Sport Nutrition & Exercise Metabolism, 2000. 10(3): p. 340-359.
6. Brown, G.A., et al., Endocrine and lipid responses to chronic androstenediol-herbal supplementation in 30 to 58 year old men. Journal of the American College of Nutrition, 2001. 20(5): p. 520-528.


2- It is also claimed that Tribulus terrestris increases testosterone by increasing gonadotropin-releasing hormone[7] (GnRH) which in turn stimulates the production of LH and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH). Testosterone, besides its role in muscle-building and raising fertility and libido, is also known to have a positive effect on bone marrow activity (for red blood cell production) and the immune system.
One recent study found that T. terrestris caused no increase in testosterone or LH in young men,[8] and another found that a commercial supplement containing androstenedione and herbal extracts, including T. terrestris, was no more effective at raising testosterone levels than androstenedione alone.[9]
references
* Germplasm Resources Information Network: Tribulus terrestris
* Flora Europaea: native distribution in Europe
* Page on T. terrestris at the Global Compendium of Weeds
* Page from the U.S. Department of Agriculture's PLANTS database
* Abstract of Brown et al. (2000) at PubMed
* Abstract of Gauthaman, Aidakan, and Prasad (2003) at PubMed
* Abstract of Neychev and Mitev (2005) at PubMed

Should I continue????? These are real life studies on tribulus ...on people! Wait let me guess whats next ....YOUR tribulus is different its standardized for like 80%steroidal sapponins or some BS. Show me the money bro ...real life tests, certified by a reputable independant lab with control subjects and proper coupound evaluation protocol and I MIGHT start to reconsider. Evidence and personal experince say this product is bunk and a waste of money . I understand your a rep...its not your fault the product doesnt do shit ..you dont make it ..u just sell it under false pretences...and hey maybe not... the company may even have you believing the BS and hype. Pharmaceutical companies have derived effective compounds(prescription meds) from plant extracts for years and made amazing profits....do you honestly believe with all the myths surrounding tribulus a human grade pharma company hasnt tried to synthesize it into an effective compound for libido boosting , erectile disfunction , even low dose androgen replacement? If there were ANY truth to these claims they would have succeeded and had a prescription med on the market... but it doesnt work! I work for a pharmaceutical company bro...i can assure if it did .......the process i just described would have taken place . No doubt about it. The ED market is a goldmine..... Im sorry the product IMO is bunk....

This is tribulus terrestris not tribulus alatus. Similar names and in the same plant family but different compounds. This would be like saying Chilean sea bass and a small-mouth river bass are the same thing (obviously far from it) but hey thats what you claim. I can show you pages and pages on terrestris as it has been more widely used in the past. Research and science moves on and certain things get replaced. This would be one of those instances.

It is funny, to anyone who has any general knowledge on the subject or basic supplements for that matter, that you have no earthly idea what you are talking about.

To finish it off, I back my comments back with published studies, logs, blood work, and all products are tested by one of (if not the top) independent lab in the USA named Chromadex. Keep in mind these are not claims, these are facts & others' personal opinions in black and white. Just admit you were wrong and stop posting, proving your ignorance is getting a bit aggravating now. Remember, its better to look stupid and say nothing than open your mouth and prove to everyone they were correct.

[ralph4u2c]

*L* what a joke 1 independant lab report with no initial lab report to establish baseline...gimme a break bro. I KNOW proper compound testing procedures in and out and this is a joke. The rat study ...is a joke -and anyone with any medical knowledge knows that ... thats early phase research info ..so far from conclusive testing in humans its an insult to peoples intelligence to insinuate it is even comparable. It is sad the myth is perpetuated by people like yourself...who may actually have good intentions but are so misinformed and pay your bills selling this bunk you WANT to believe it

They all have baselines and post-cycle test results What are you talking about .... same goes for the on going tests we paid for. All the individuals are tested PRE CYCLE to establish baseline, during cycle, and post-cycle to examine all results and compare them to the BASELINE.

Oh by the way, sorry i could only post a few blood reports as of today. The product has been out for only for a few months now. Sorry the blood work from those individuals as well as the 15+ other individuals currently getting tested isnt enough for you. I think if another company could show me 2-3 studies that would be enough for me and i dont know many companies willing to do this. i dont know of many other products with blood test proving them effective either but there are some out there which is always a good thing. I think i speak for myself and everyone else on the board that this would be plenty enough for me. Reports on both rats and humans, logs and good reviews, and within one year we will have a collection of 20+ users blood results from pre to post. can you recall anyone else ever doing that.....dont worry ill wait.

[jimmyinkedup]

This is tribulus terrestris not tribulus alatus. Similar names and in the same plant family but different compounds. This would be like saying Chilean sea bass and a small-mouth river bass are the same thing (obviously far from it) but hey thats what you claim. I can show you pages and pages on terrestris as it has been more widely used in the past. Research and science moves on and certain things get replaced. This would be one of those instances.

It is funny, to anyone who has any general knowledge on the subject or basic supplements for that matter, that you have no earthly idea what you are talking about.

To finish it off, I back my comments back with published studies, logs, blood work, and all products are tested by one of (if not the top) independent lab in the USA named Chromadex. Keep in mind these are not claims, these are facts & others' personal opinions in black and white. Just admit you were wrong and stop posting, proving your ignorance is getting a bit aggravating now. Remember, its better to look stupid and say nothing than open your mouth and prove to everyone they were correct.

*L* yeah i just work on a team that synthesizes compounds(medications) for the largest pharmaceutical comany in the US ... that then hopefully go on to REAL clinical trials ...and do what they claim. So you may bs some people when it comes to some things ....but you wont bs me when it comes to clinical trial procedure and methods to truly prove compound effectivenss...what u put up is laughable to any professional. Save it.

Oh and wait what did i say u would say ..NO thats not our trib product our trib product is different. Disgraceful

[jimmyinkedup]

Ralph4u2c:
They all have baselines and post-cycle test results What are you talking about .... same goes for the on going tests we paid for. All the individuals are tested PRE CYCLE to establish baseline, during cycle, and post-cycle to examine all results and compare them to the BASELINE.


My Response:
baseline levels are typed in threads...i looked through all threads and saw 1 scanned bloodwork result and it was at the end of "trial" (like this could even be called that)...convenient.
So we are to just believe the typed in starting and middle of trial test levels but then we are allowed to see the lab report with the supposed final testing at end of "trial" - that seems highly suspect and rediculous if u have nothing to hide...
You also claim an average increase of 100ng/dl in test levels (key word claim ....not prove) lets pretend thats true - avg test range is 300ng/dl-1000ng/dl - how effective at building muscle would a substance be when using it the majority (almost all) of users would still remain in normal test level range??? In the big pic 100ng/dl is nothing

[jimmyinkedup]

ralph4u2c:
Reports on both rats and humans, logs and good reviews, and within one year we will have a collection of 20+ users blood results from pre to post. can you recall anyone else ever doing that.....dont worry ill wait.

So because you appear to do more than other companies ...your claims are true and credible...
-even though your "rat"studies are useless ......
-your testing protocol invalid and flawed ...
-there are NO published studies or your product effects on humans....
-no clinical trials (real ones not bs one with type baselines etc...and proper testing protocol followed)
- double blind trials??? now THATS real testing ...phase 2 clinical trials..heard of it?
- we have anecdotal evdience....same as we started with .....
- btw lots of supp companies use bs non applicaple studies on rats and somehow infer mechanism is the same in humans

i do to some extent applaud some of your effort..now do it the right way... with and effective base compound ....and you can be the leader in changing the horribly corrupt industry that u are presently a part of .

[jimmyinkedup]

oh u never commented on this:
Pharmaceutical companies have derived effective compounds(prescription meds) from plant extracts for years and made amazing profits....do you honestly believe with all the myths surrounding tribulus a human grade pharma company hasnt tried to synthesize it into an effective compound for libido boosting , erectile disfunction , even low dose androgen replacement? If there were ANY truth to these claims they would have succeeded and had a prescription med on the market... but it doesnt work! I work for a pharmaceutical company bro...i can assure if it did .......the process i just described would have taken place . No doubt about it. The ED market is a goldmine.....

thoughts???

btw my malice is not intended to be directed tword you personally....the industry itself is corrupt...you are a part of it..while u may try to do more your studies and methods are so flawed they lose all credibility to the intelligent, well educated consumer. I challenge your company ...stand up ...do it right(really right)...change the trend..lead the way...go that extra mile .....do that , like i said with an effective base compound (hell do it right with this one and prove me wrong-i personally am skeptical thats possible but hey go for it)..and ill back you 100%....

[ralph4u2c]

So because you appear to do more than other companies ...your claims are true and credible...
-even though your "rat"studies are useless ......
-your testing protocol invalid and flawed ...
-there are NO published studies or your product effects on humans....
-no clinical trials (real ones not bs one with type baselines etc...and proper testing protocol followed)
- double blind trials??? now THATS real testing ...phase 2 clinical trials..heard of it?
- we have anecdotal evdience....same as we started with .....

i do to some extent applaud some of your effort..now do it the right way... with and effective base compound ....and you can be the leader in changing the horribly corrupt industry that u are presently a part of .

we are working on clinical studies but this takes time and a lot of money. money unfortunately many companies do not have. this is why you will never see a supplement company have research done and published on a material before it is released. this is typically not feasible and many time is not called for. i make a product based off of 50+ published reports of ingredients (what we used to make T-bol) that was used on both humans and rats (see our product writeup on our website for every study used) and make a product. if they product works and gets great reviews then awesome you have a winner right? well we go beyond that and get blood work done proving that it does truly work. the cost of doing double blind studies is virtually not needed and while it will help build credibility, the end user could care less. he has friends, board members, and blood work all in his favor. this would be enough for virtually every person out there to commit to trying a product. get my drift bro? i dont think you realize how much it cost to develop, test, retest, perfect, retest, create logo/ads etc, and put out a quality product.

[bladerunner9]

OK now according to above discussion i think I should give it a try. I'll have my Bloodwork after the PCT. Will wait for 4 weeks and get another Blodwork and then i'll use the tribulus terrestris and will post the results. I hope that will do ?

Ahh have to be a Lab rat for you guys...LOL j/g

[jimmyinkedup]

we are working on clinical studies but this takes time and a lot of money. money unfortunately many companies do not have. this is why you will never see a supplement company have research done and published on a material before it is released. this is typically not feasible and many time is not called for. i make a product based off of 50+ published reports of ingredients (what we used to make T-bol) that was used on both humans and rats (see our product writeup on our website for every study used) and make a product. if they product works i question this and gets great reviews then awesome you have a winner right? well we go beyond that and get blood work done proving that it does truly work your bloodwork proves nothing if you dont publicly show before during and after lab reports substantiating claims...which so far you dont. the cost of doing double blind studies is virtually not needed and while it will help build credibility, the end user could care less I care. he has friends, board members, and blood work all in his favor No proof of this. this would be enough for virtually every person out there to commit to trying a product If it were true possibly. get my drift bro? i dont think you realize how much it cost to develop, test, retest, perfect, retest, create logo/ads etc, and put out a quality product.[/QUOTE]




remember what i do for a living ..these costs i know very well... ur right its expensive but i feel it a fundimental necessity ..i realize in your industry it isnt done often if at all ...but that represents exactly whats wrong with the industry. How many less than credible, corrupt companies are there as a result of these procedures lacking???

What you do do..publish it openly ...real lab reports not typed info ..beginning mid end of administration. Control group pertinent to target market (appears you did try this) 1/2 posted results and opinions of guys who in their mind are getting free stuff who know what it should do is suspect. Throw in placebos...get input from test participants there..that will explain my last comment (placebo effect def exists esp in this area ). Not correct but better than what im seeing. I wanna believe in a supp company i truly do ..it would be refreshing.

I reiterate and hopefully leave this debate on civil terms:

btw my malice is not intended to be directed tword you personally....the industry itself is corrupt...you are a part of it..while u may try to do more your studies and methods are so flawed they lose all credibility to the intelligent, well educated consumer. I challenge your company ...stand up ...do it right(really right)...change the trend..lead the way...go that extra mile .....do that , like i said with an effective base compound (hell do it right with this one and prove me wrong-i personally am skeptical thats possible but hey go for it)..and ill back you 100%.... (and so will THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of consumers IMO

Happy Holidays....

ps - i truly would like a response on the bold statement in post #22 ..i feel it is very pertinent valid point.

[ralph4u2c]

i hear ya bro. again, you will prob. never see double-blind and published reports funded by a supplement company, just wont happen. im content with what we have laid out on the table, as many users are as well. the next stage is just to big of a leap for just about every supplement company, both small and large.

we do know how to conduct studies. we have one of the best team of developers right now. almost all of them have a Ph.D and/or (some have both!) a M.D. and all conduct their own studies for their practice. we have called out many companies for attempting to post "reports" without having any baseline values or control group. well this has been fun, you guys have a merry christmas.

[jimmyinkedup]

i hear ya bro. again, you will prob. never see double-blind and published reports funded by a supplement company, just wont happen.OK how about good solid testing following standard protocols with honestly reported results and full disclosure im content with what we have laid out on the table, as many users are as well thats because you have people believing what you want and they are buying the product ..thats all u care about. the next stage is just to big of a leap for just about every supplement company, both small and large.

1-we do know how to conduct studies. we have one of the best team of developers right now. almost all of them have a Ph.D and/or (some have both!) a M.D. and all conduct their own studies for their practice. we have called out many companies for attempting to post "reports" without having any baseline values or control group. Ironic since you have none involving human beings well this has been fun, you guys have a merry christmas.

damn i wanted this to be over..
1- if you know how then do it correctly - you arent ...
you never addressed why bloodwork results were "typed in" on threads establishing base levels and you only posted one real (lab report)final result bloodwork...showing a supposed increase...but we never saw the starting lab report! How much more would placebo testing cost you? My other points are valid but this is bothersome as you wont address this issue (re improper testing even at a subpar level -at least post clinical bloodwork at start middle and end for even one person ..you havent done that...essentially that proves nothing-although we both know it take way more than 1 person for a meaningful result)or responded to my question re pharma companies as well. Your failure to address these issues is bothersome. I still maintain my opinion re your (and all tribulus) products.
Happy Holidays.

[xlxBigSexyxlx]

Gaspari Nutrition Novedex Xt




Eight weeks of aromatase inhibition using the nutritional supplement Novedex XT: effects in young, eugonadal men.

Willoughby DS, Wilborn C, Taylor L, Campbell W.

Department of Health, Human Performance, and Recreation, Baylor University, Waco, TX 76798-7313, USA.

This study examined the effects of an aromatase-inhibiting nutritional supplement on serum steroid hormones, body composition, and clinical safety markers.

Sixteen eugonadal young men ingested either Novedex XT or a placebo daily for 8 wk, followed by a 3-wk washout period. Body composition was assessed and blood and urine samples obtained at weeks 0, 4, 8, and 11. Data were analyzed by 2-way repeated-measures ANOVA.

Novedex XT resulted in average increases of 283%, 625%, 566%, and 438% for total testosterone (P=0.001), free testosterone (P=0.001), dihydrotestosterone (P=0.001), and the testosterone:estrogen ratio (P=0.001), respectively, whereas fat mass decreased 3.5% (P=0.026) during supplementation. No significant differences were observed in blood and urinary clinical safety markers or for any of the other serum hormones (P>0.05).

This study indicates that Novedex XT significantly increases serum androgen levels and decreases fat mass.

PMID: 17460335 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[jimmyinkedup]

^^^ where does this fit in here? Did u use it like it etc? not tribulus product i know but im wondering re OP where r u coming from?

Tribulus / Natural Test Boosters

Has anyone tried / had any luck using any of these?

[jimmyinkedup]

Trib. Alatus in our T-bol has proved to be very successful and helped to produce good gains in both strength and mass. i know we are working on some more potent extracts and testing the alatus on its own, which will give better feedback to your question but .... there are many logs and bloodwork proving the effects from Thermolife T-bol. Problem with other forms of trib. were inferior extractions and cheap quality. This along with marketing hype, exaggeration, and false claims/comparisons gave it a bad rep like many other herbs out there.

here are some studies from trib. alatas too:

Free serum testosterone level in male rats treated with Tribulus alatus extracts.
El-Tantawy WH, Temraz A, El-Gindi OD.

Drug Bioavailability Center, National Organization For Drug Control and Research, Cairo, Egypt. [email protected]

OBJECTIVE: The present study was undertaken to investigate the effect of Tribulus alatus extracts on free serum testosterone in male rats. MATERIALS AND METHODS: Free serum testosterone level was measured in male rats treated with alcoholic extracts of the aerial part without fruits, fruits of Tribulus alatus and their fractions. RESULTS: All tested extracts showed significant increase in the level of free serum testosterone when compared to that of corresponding control, p < 0.05. Statistical comparison of all groups revealed that the maximum level was found in groups treated with chloroformic and ethanolic fractions of fruits extract. CONCLUSION: Tribulus alatus extract appears to possess aphrodisiac activity due to its androgen increasing property.
----------------------------------------
Steroidal saponins from the aerial parts of Tribulus alatus Del.
Temraz A, El Gindi OD, Kadry HA, De Tommasi N, Braca A.

Dipartimento di Chimica Bioorganica e Biofarmacia, Università di Pisa, Via Bonanno 33, 56126 Pisa, Italy.

Six steroidal glycosides (1-6) were isolated from the aerial parts of Tribulus alatus Del. (Zygophyllaceae), together with one known cholestane, one spirostane, and six flavonol glycosides. Among them, 1 and 2 possess a furostane-type aglycone, 3 and 6 a cholestane structure, and 4 and 5 a spirostane skeleton. Their structural elucidation was accomplished by extensive spectroscopic methods including 1D ((1)H, (13)C, (13)C DEPT, TOCSY, ROESY) and 2D NMR experiments (DQF-COSY, HSQC, HMBC) as well as ESI-MS analysis.

PMID: 16631216 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

*L* found your rat study..and some missing info: the effective theoretical extract doasge at which one may expect any exibited effects in human males - 50/mg /kg bodyweight !!! Note this dose and effects are speculative as no study results, peer evaluations, or comparable studies are available at this time.

Hey why did u leave that part out???
-btw guys that equals 5000mgs for a 220lb male....and u read it right. Your product by your own label contains 100mg/dose hmmmm.
combined with:
-speculative dosages and effects as no study results , peer evals , or comparable studies are avail at this time.
combined with:
-Unavailable supposed bloodwork results.
combined with:
-Test on rats - NONE published on humans anywhere in the world
combined with:
- leaving out test data to suit your claims
combined with:
-oh btw your chromadex link leads to the thread on other forum where the pic of the only lab report you show (which btw is illegable at that*L*) you know the one supposedly at the end of your "trial" is. Where are the before lab reports???? Oh they are nowhere to be seen...How about mid trial reports??? Nowhere either... (more convenient omission or as it is known a lie)
combined with:
- claims by guys ,you admittedly paid to get bloodwork (which we cant see) and that you gave free product to , saying it works - thats credible
combined with:
- Pharmaceutical companies that look to plant extracts as primary sources of medicinal compounds all the time and have for years .... just missed this one huh ...with the thousands of dollars they could have made ( i doubt it ..im sure they tried it...it didnt work)

OK by some miraculous act of god lets say your grass clippings accidentally did what u say ...raise test levels 100ng/dl ...with the normal range between 300-1000 ...the increase is insignificant ...esp for ANY muscle buyilding effects....but it doesnt matter because its bs anyway.
btw for comparison androgel 1% 5grams doasage (minmum amount prescribed) raised test levels on average over 250ng/dl in one application ( http://dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailymed...archiveid=4279 ) ...how effective do you think 1% andro is a building muscle....we are talking 5milligrams of test guys ....and you get twice the CLAIMED test increase with just 5mg test ...not proven increase but claimed increase (i personally think increase claims are bs) Another comparison ...minimum common dosage of testosterone propinate in Bobybuilding circles (no pros here guys ...avg steroid users) 75-100mgs per DAY. Ask any bodybuilder if 35mgs/test per week would build ANY muscle at all. I think we all know the answer...even if you dont use steroids.

IMO all the above FACTS I listed say your product is bunk...im sorry it went down such a sad road......but I am not surprised....you are no different than alot of other supplement companies and maybe with the altered study and all the above facts i pointed out even a little worse.....Its a shame...Happy Holidays......

[ralph4u2c]

how can you compare an herbal test booster to androgel ?

you are missing the big picture which is very simple. yes double-blind studies and getting researchers to do independent studies is nice but in the end .... you ignored the one thing that every user is worried about....results. just about every users made great gains for a natural test boosters, some had great weight loss while cutting and maintaining mass, others made personal best in PR and were up a few pounds after the cycle.

we are paying for peoples blood work to prove that this product not only works but it does raise free/total test levels and lower estrogen levels at the same time. the link to Chromadex is our lab that does all our testing on materials, it does not conduct studies. we have not released any blood work papers because, like i said earlier, the test is still on going and is only on mid-cycle. it does take time for 15 or so individuals across the world to have blood work done 3 times, scanned and compiled, then released. this is hard to do when they arent even finished the cycle.

they way people list their blood levels in the past, whether that be through a scanned copy or in text is up to them. keep in mind, anyone who posted their values so far has done it totally on their own. we had no idea they were going to do this. if you dont like the way they post take it up with them. the users we are paying for will be posted on all correct and original documentation. you can jump through every hoop but there still will be someone out there with doubts saying we "tainted" with results or its all a scam. this will help minimize any doubts. speaking of, sounds a lot like whats going on right now?

[jimmyinkedup]

*L* GIVE IT UP - RE -READ MY POST ABOVE YOURS - YOU LIED - I DIDNT. YOUR PRODUCT IS BVLLSHIT >>> DEAL WITH IT - NOW THE CLAIMS RE HARD FACTS OF BLOODWORK RESULTS POSTED ARE CHANGING- WHY DID YOU OMIT PART OF YOUR BELOVED RAT TEST INFO THAT CONTRADICTED YOUR PRODUCT AND CLAIMS - TEST IS TEST WHY NOT COMPARE? DOES THE BODY KNOW WHAT RAISED TEST LEVELS AND WHY _ NO ...BUT WE SURE KNOW 100ng/dl WONT DO SHIT. YOUR BEAT AND IM DONE> TAP DANCE ALL YOU WANT >> FACTS ARE FACTS >> YOU HAVE LIED AND MISREPRESENTED YOURSELF AND THE FACTS>>>> I CAN SEE ONLY 1 REASON FOR YOU TO DO THIS >>>> YOU ACTUALLY EVEN KNOW YOUR PRODUCT DOESNT WORK BUT ARE WILLING TO LIE AND MISLEAD PEOPLE TO SELL IT >>>> LIKE I SAID FROM JUMP SHAMEFUL>>>> I WILL WASTE NO MORE ENERGY ON YOU PAL>>> YOU AND YOUR COMPANY ARE A JOKE....

[ralph4u2c]

nothing has changed, like i said time and time again it is all there in black and white. if you think you cant make gains unless your test levels are increased to a certain level and that is the only way to make gains ... then your an idiot.

sorry jimmy, i guess real world results from users doesn't mean shit to you. i guess an average increase of 100+ ng/dl doesnt mean shit to you when the average dose of 50mg testim cream ED increases test levels at an average of 187 ng/dl. elevated test levels can help in many different ways, i think we all know that. keep in mind this is not the only thing T-bol is good for and keep in mind this is an herbal product not a pharm test cream. you were right the whole time, cant you tell

[OH REALLY]

funny the guys at gnc love this stuff

[Swifto]

What is shameful your prejudgment of a product based on me being a rep. I was a member here for years and many other forums before being a rep for Thermolife.

i guess picking 15 qualified members of a forum between the ages of 21-40+ and having them give their honest opinion of a product is shameless to. to put the icing on the cake, we paid for them to have their hormone levels tested pre, during, and post using the product. When is the last time you saw a company go out on that kind of limb and back up their products......shameful isnt it?

i guess its a shame that many other users have bought, enjoyed, and logged our product all by themselves too. some of them even having blood work by their doctor that shows an increase of 100+ ng/dl in total test, lower estrogen and progesterone levels. these can be all backed up by links to other threads on other forums, just PM me if you would like to view the 10+ threads i have on hand (dont want to break any rules here).

your comment on someone in Egypt having a yahoo account shows how naive you really are. do you think people in a country like Egypt dont have the internet or dont use search engines like Yahoo? the studies i posted are published documents that can be found here.

in conclusion: sorry if you dont like someone to post their honest opinion that is backed by both previous experience and published studies. sorry if you don't like that i am a rep for a company now. last, sorry if you do not like studies done rats, a product is created from these studies, and it is then backed by real world results and bloodwork/science to prove it. what world are you living in bro, if only other companies did this the industry would be a better and safer place. merry christmas fellas

*TAP*

hahahahahaha....


This is going to be fun.

Go back to bodybuilding .com you fool.

Trib wont raise total T, thats a fact. And...I dont care what unique extract you claim to have.

Your "studies" (if you can call them that) are, at best, laughable.

Well done, you raised total T 100ngl, dont you think thats possible with Clomid, Nolva or an AI? Why would any idiot spend $40 on your product for a 100ngl raise?

And...

Free T can be raised with Proviron very effectively I'm afraid at a fraction of the cost...

Again, go back to bodybuilding .com.

[Swifto]

nothing has changed, like i said time and time again it is all there in black and white. if you think you cant make gains unless your test levels are increased to a certain level and that is the only way to make gains ... then your an idiot.

sorry jimmy, i guess real world results from users doesn't mean shit to you. i guess an average increase of 100+ ng/dl doesnt mean shit to you when the average dose of 50mg testim cream ED increases test levels at an average of 187 ng/dl. elevated test levels can help in many different ways, i think we all know that. keep in mind this is not the only thing T-bol is good for and keep in mind this is an herbal product not a pharm test cream. you were right the whole time, cant you tell

What did your bloodwork show when you used your Trib product? From baseline?

You sound like ****ing Ross.

[jimmyinkedup]

ralph4u2c

^^ YUP i can compare to other test boosting products....... your product SUPPOSEDLY increases test (based on your bogus claims which again you lied over and over to back up all the clinical points until it was proved by me over and over you were lying ..
in other words your study you posted(the one where u edited out the true info that would make u and your product look bad- thats ethical) claiming effectiveness was:
1- in rats of all things
2- measuring test increases in rats
that was your data u brought in to support your claims (and u couldnt even do that honestly)
So lets examine test issue - shouldnt we since it was your initial post and basis for product claims of effectiveness.
andro cream 1% 5 grams gives 250ng/dl avg increase (see my link its published statistically gathered info ..you should try that sometime)
Your product with the increases you claimed (which i have no reason to believe are true and neither does anyone else)would be equal to 2mg/testosterone per day - useless my friend ...i dont care if you drop estrogen along with it ( a new claim to the argument pulled out of the sky prob also with no studies based in fact to back up)..that would even decrease ability to gain lean muscle mass (read up on it ..you may learn something) If test is now a non issue why is the foundation of your argument initially here based on it??? (although its a flawed argument re: source of data) Why is that also your focus for results on the other board??? You truly are beat bro. You have a handful of guys you paid and gave free stuff to claiming your product works ...the fact say different ....and in my experience tribulus was useless prior to all this data gathering...oh and if your trib product is so different why are the studies on rats wth trib terrestris getting the same results? All in All Pal it is getting bleaker for you and your product from where im sitting....hopefully (and i wasnt gonna say this before but I am now) IM not alone.... Now you are trying to swicth foundation of agguement to biased opinion oh ah test isnt all it does...this could go on forever. I think the precedent you set and the facts speak for themselves...stop trying t defend the indefensible (your ethics and the facts you misconstrued )...id cut my losses and roll on outta here......

[jimmyinkedup]

*TAP*

hahahahahaha....


This is going to be fun.

Go back to bodybuilding .com you fool.

Trib wont raise total T, thats a fact. And...I dont care what unique extract you claim to have.

Your "studies" (if you can call them that) are, at best, laughable.

Well done, you raised total T 100ngl, .

*L* and he didnt even do that !! I hope u read the whole thread...this guy is a total liar .....

[AdamGH]

if you want a boost in testosterone , best thing is to get on steroids .

[jimmyinkedup]

congrats bro by coming in here and trying to be all high and mighty you were exposed as a liar and manipulator and by posting essentially unsubstantiated bs along with your own personal lies thrown in - your company and product and you were exposed as a fraud...now the few customers you may have picked up if you stayed away and kept your mouth shut will prob never buy your sh*tty product.... Now thats good marketing einstein *lol*
GOOD BYE...HAPPY HOLIDAYS!