Which supplements are a MUST?

[IM708]

I think we can agree that Whey Protein and Creatin are givens, but are products like Maximuscle Cyclone worth the cash? It's a combination of protein and creatin which leads me to think it's cost effective or is it just a gimmicky product?

High quality whey protein. Pretty good dosage of ALA

Little iffy on:
1) Why are they preaching that per 30g of protein you get 2g of glutamine? Glutamine won't due too much for you.
2) The main ingredient in the matrix is sugar.
3) It has HMB in it but gives no indication of how much leucine exists per 30 grams of protein.
4) Is the creatine micronized? If not, thats not a good thing.
5) Why is there chromium, NAC added?


Flagg, it depends on the price, if the price is right then I'd buy it but it looks like that roughly translates to $55. And has a mess of compounds inside of it. I've always suggested Gold Standard whey and buy a tub of micronized creatine mono to go along with it.

[Swifto]

and that means nothing? i was on a strict competitive (natural) routinue for years and i have nailed down what works supplement wise, i've used everything from a-z. dont write of experience, thts just stupid. age 19 on your profile, that says it all, we'll debate again in a few years mate, during tht time trying using all the stuff your proclaiming. ever hear the phrase, 'dont believe everything you read'? i've been taught by a world class sports competitive lecturer who also rubbishes aminos, and i tend to take advice by someone who has been trained on an international scale by guess what, sports and nutritional scientists.

Your rubbishing peer-reviewed scientific published data? For "personal experience"?

You meen to tell me you tried the exact diet, training regime and experimented on various supplements throughout "20 years" and took every variable into account, then formulated an opinoin based on the data? What have you concluded over "20 years".

You see, I get ****ed off with people saying, I did this and that over X amount of years as it means close to nothing when put next too a published study. When you argue a point, you need to present some sort of argument and "20 years" experience, means very little when claiming the opposite of published clinical data by various universities conducted by medical professionals.

[Swifto]

There is evidence stating BCAA's work.

There is evidence stating Leucine supplementation works.

There is evidence Creatine Monohydrate works.

The is evidecne Creatine Ethyl Ester doesnt work.

There is evidence Tribulas does not raise androgen levels.

My claims are backed up by peer-reviewed published clinical data. Infact, everything is I post and claim. Other wise I'll state, I'm "assuming", or "postulating" a given statement/claim.

[gunslinger2]

and that means nothing? i was on a strict competitive (natural) routinue for years and i have nailed down what works supplement wise, i've used everything from a-z. dont write of experience, thts just stupid. age 19 on your profile, that says it all, we'll debate again in a few years mate, during tht time trying using all the stuff your proclaiming. ever hear the phrase, 'dont believe everything you read'? i've been taught by a world class sports competitive lecturer who also rubbishes aminos, and i tend to take advice by someone who has been trained on an international scale by guess what, sports and nutritional scientists.

Exactly. Just a kid with less than five years under his belt and already knows everything there is to know about bodybuilding. Maybe one day he will be able to look back as we do and see just how stupid he was.

Age and personal experience mean a hell of a lot in bodybuilding. For many years myself and others have used our own bodies to put all these theories to the test and we have through trial and error found what works in real life and what just looks good on paper. Find all the studies you like and you still can't discredit years of real world experience.

You see, I get ****ed off with people saying, I did this and that over X amount of years as it means close to nothing when put next too a published study. When you argue a point, you need to present some sort of argument and "20 years" experience, means very little when claiming the opposite of published clinical data by various universities conducted by medical professionals.

Again its the same "medical professionals" who in the late 60's and early 70's claimed "steroids do not promote faster or greater muscular gains", but are now saying steroids cause everything from cancer to the common cold. You seem to think that if its backed up by published clinical data it cannot be flawed. At the same time you throw out years of real world experience.....WTF?

There is evidence Creatine Monohydrate works.

I don't think anyone has said anything about Creatine, Creatine Ethyl Ester, or Tribulas.

[dec11]

I think we can agree that Whey Protein and Creatin are givens, but are products like Maximuscle Cyclone worth the cash? It's a combination of protein and creatin which leads me to think it's cost effective or is it just a gimmicky product?

yeah cyclone isnt a bad product, can be a bit pricey in some places though

[Swifto]

Exactly. Just a kid with less than five years under his belt and already knows everything there is to know about bodybuilding. Maybe one day he will be able to look back as we do and see just how stupid he was.

Age and personal experience mean a hell of a lot in bodybuilding. For many years myself and others have used our own bodies to put all these theories to the test and we have through trial and error found what works in real life and what just looks good on paper. Find all the studies you like and you still can't discredit years of real world experience.





Again its the same "medical professionals" who in the late 60's and early 70's claimed "steroids do not promote faster or greater muscular gains", but are now saying steroids cause everything from cancer to the common cold. You seem to think that if its backed up by published clinical data it cannot be flawed. At the same time you throw out years of real world experience.....WTF?





I don't think anyone has said anything about Creatine, Creatine Ethyl Ester, or Tribulas.

No one did (well I guess I did). You missed my point(purposefully). But thanks for enlightening us with your ignorance.

Peer-reviewed published data holds far more water than "I've been doing it for 20 years, so its right". Studies are done on multiple individuals, taking a wide range of variables into account. Your one meesly subject, with many variables.

You havent conducted studies on multiple individuals, recording data beforehand and after, whilst keeping to the strictest of protocols (diet, training etc..). So how exactly have you formulated this opinoin of yours, over "20 years"?

[Swifto]

yeah cyclone isnt a bad product, can be a bit pricey in some places though

Cyclone is a total watse of money. Its also packed full of artifical sweetners and other shit and is WAY overpriced.

Get all the various supps. from www.bulkpowders.co.uk and make your own for a fraction of the price.

[dec11]

Your rubbishing peer-reviewed scientific published data? For "personal experience"?

You meen to tell me you tried the exact diet, training regime and experimented on various supplements throughout "20 years" and took every variable into account, then formulated an opinoin based on the data? What have you concluded over "20 years".

You see, I get ****ed off with people saying, I did this and that over X amount of years as it means close to nothing when put next too a published study. When you argue a point, you need to present some sort of argument and "20 years" experience, means very little when claiming the opposite of published clinical data by various universities conducted by medical professionals.

how can it mean very little? and yes i was dedicated when i was competing and ate the same boring crap for years and as i competed in plifting there really are only three lifts to be concerned with, the only diff variables were illness and injury. in answer to your statement in bold, creatine, zma, hmb and the standard vits are all i'd consider useful. you guys apparently know more than every experienced person i know in competitive athletics and years experience under their belts? i can name 13 sports nutrition books in my collection, how many have any of you? gun slinger makes viable points like what killed you 10yrs ago is good for you today. arguements like never take your creatine along with your protein 15 years ago, now we have 'clinically' proven all in one formulas. dont you think there are variables in clinically tests? they dont have testing over a big enough population and almost always end in 'in theory' or 'it seems'. and iron maiden, ive been taking the friggin stuff since b4 you where born. now, swifto, please explain to me why you would listen to ppls steroid experiences and not count ppls supplement experience. i am presenting a very viable arguement for experience/published book studies v internet published studies

[dec11]

Cyclone is a total watse of money. Its also packed full of artifical sweetners and other shit and is WAY overpriced.

Get all the various supps. from www.bulkpowders.co.uk and make your own for a fraction of the price.

yep i agree on the price, 99% supps are bullshit as regarding price, doesnt say they arent good though, i get the stuff for £20 per tub and i feel stronger on it

[Swifto]

how can it mean very little? and yes i was dedicated when i was competing and ate the same boring crap for years and as i competed in plifting there really are only three lifts to be concerned with, the only diff variables were illness and injury. in answer to your statement in bold, creatine, zma, hmb and the standard vits are all i'd consider useful. you guys apparently know more than every experienced person i know in competitive athletics and years experience under their belts? i can name 13 sports nutrition books in my collection, how many have any of you? gun slinger makes viable points like what killed you 10yrs ago is good for you today. arguements like never take your creatine along with your protein 15 years ago, now we have 'clinically' proven all in one formulas. dont you think there are variables in clinically tests? they dont have testing over a big enough population and almost always end in 'in theory' or 'it seems'. and iron maiden, ive been taking the friggin stuff since b4 you where born. now, swifto, please explain to me why you would listen to ppls steroid experiences and not count ppls supplement experience. i am presenting a very viable arguement for experience/published book studies v internet published studies

The evidence that has been presented on BCAA's is new, or fairly new. I'm sure you'de agree newer research is better than older. Well, most of the time.

I can see were not going to agree on this. I have an opinoin on BCAA's and Leucine supplementation. I agree with the references presented.

You have an opinoin based on other opinoins and theory's from, it seems, individuals. Thats dangerous.

Do you take everything Anthony Roberts and Eric Portratz write in articles, as I can point out a fair few flaws.

Rather than take others views and try to present tham as fact, do your own research and read various journals.

[Swifto]

yep i agree on the price, 99% supps are bullshit as regarding price, doesnt say they arent good though, i get the stuff for £20 per tub and i feel stronger on it

£20 per tub isnt bad. The RRP is around £35-40, I believe.

Making your own is probably cheaper though and you know exactly whats in it and can mix whatever formula you desire.

[bradhore]

No, products like that arn't worth the cash, may aswell buy a good aas cycle and have alot more gains!

[dec11]

The evidence that has been presented on BCAA's is new, or fairly new. I'm sure you'de agree newer research is better than older. Well, most of the time.

I can see were not going to agree on this. I have an opinoin on BCAA's and Leucine supplementation. I agree with the references presented.

You have an opinoin based on other opinoins and theory's from, it seems, individuals. Thats dangerous.

Do you take everything Anthony Roberts and Eric Portratz write in articles, as I can point out a fair few flaws.

Rather than take others views and try to present tham as fact, do your own research and read various journals.

jesus, no! anthony roberts is full of shit and always has been. i dont buy crap like tht, i mean proper sports nutrition books, think text book rather than bb orientated crap. yep we'll have to agree to disagree. i speaking based on my own experiences and some journals have confirmed it and yeah you could be right on the updated info but again i lean towards what i worked for me. cheers

[dec11]

£20 per tub isnt bad. The RRP is around £35-40, I believe.

Making your own is probably cheaper though and you know exactly whats in it and can mix whatever formula you desire.

yeah, off the back of a lorry i suspect lol. retail here in rep ireland is a whooping 80 euro in places!!! def not worth tht

[bradhore]

Nobody has said caffein! I find it really helps keep me awake and alot and keeps me going for longer!

[Flagg]

Cyclone is a total watse of money. Its also packed full of artifical sweetners and other shit and is WAY overpriced.

Get all the various supps. from www.bulkpowders.co.uk and make your own for a fraction of the price.

That site looks awesome. I need to shop online more for suppliments, shops charge so much. Even when Holland and Barret have their "50% discount" sales on it's still way more expensive.

[gunslinger2]

The evidence that has been presented on BCAA's is new, or fairly new. I'm sure you'de agree newer research is better than older. Well, most of the time.

Oh really? Do you remember when bodybuilders knew the way to get lean was lower carbs and increased protein? No, you are too young to remember that. But anyway, along came the "experts" from the medical com. telling everyone they were wrong, higher carbs were the way to go. Studies and research had been done to "prove" this was the case. They were wrong and the bodybuilders who knew their bodies and had years of experience were right all along. The "new science" was wrong and thats just one case of many I could bring up.

You have an opinoin based on other opinoins and theory's from, it seems, individuals. Thats dangerous.

If I know 10 guys who all work out regularly and eat right, they all order some dbol from a source and every one of them tells me its bunk, then I try it and it does nothing for me either....its bunk, pure and simple I don't care how many studies you have on it.

To have an opinion based on someones theory's with no real world experience of your own and then give others advice based on this is whats dangerous.

[IM708]

Exactly. Just a kid with less than five years under his belt and already knows everything there is to know about bodybuilding. Maybe one day he will be able to look back as we do and see just how stupid he was.

So you will use age bias to, good idea, but don't make it a habit since it basically a cheap shot at someone.

On another note when did I say I knew everything? Up until several months ago I thought it was a useless supplement as well. But science doesn't lie, until I see new contradictory data my opinion stands as it always has.

Age and personal experience mean a hell of a lot in bodybuilding. For many years myself and others have used our own bodies to put all these theories to the test and we have through trial and error found what works in real life and what just looks good on paper. Find all the studies you like and you still can't discredit years of real world experience.

So you keep bringing up this personal experience, I don't give a shit how many non controlled "experiments" you have done on your body. A solid study which link A to B is much more powerful. Basically your argument against its use is this: 'BCAAs are useless because I said so,' not good enough.

Actually I can discredit real world experience, anyone with half a brain would see your argument as weak and transparent, especially since what you are presenting is disorganized/non existant data.

Continue on with your ignorant ways, I'm done with this discussion.

[dec11]

So you will use age bias to, good idea, but don't make it a habit since it basically a cheap shot at someone.

On another note when did I say I knew everything? Up until several months ago I thought it was a useless supplement as well. But science doesn't lie, until I see new contradictory data my opinion stands as it always has.

So you keep bringing up this personal experience, I don't give a shit how many non controlled "experiments" you have done on your body. A solid study which link A to B is much more powerful. Basically your argument against its use is this: 'BCAAs are useless because I said so,' not good enough.

Actually I can discredit real world experience, anyone with half a brain would see your argument as weak and transparent, especially since what you are presenting is disorganized/non existant data.

Continue on with your ignorant ways, I'm done with this discussion.

now that is blatant stupidity, why do ppl like myself ask experience of Big and Marcus regarding aas? because simply they have the experience and age (ie time spent doing something), something tht constitutes being hailed as a veteran, what experiences have you got at 19? and what about all the displaced bullshit that aparently were 'scientific'?

[IM708]

now that is blatant stupidity, why do ppl like myself ask experience of Big and Marcus regarding aas? because simply they have the experience and age (ie time spent doing something), something tht constitutes being hailed as a veteran, what experiences have you got at 19? and what about all the displaced bullshit that aparently were 'scientific'?

I'm sorry on the poor wording, there are certain occations where real world experience does apply. AAS there is no other choice since the science doesn't exist in vast quantities due to the fact of it being a controlled substance.

What I meant is Gunslingers real world experiance with his non controlled experiments using bcaas is weak and transparent. His claims based on real world experience is null and void.

[dec11]

I'm sorry on the poor wording, there are certain occations where real world experience does apply. AAS there is no other choice since the science doesn't exist in vast quantities due to the fact of it being a controlled substance.

What I meant is Gunslingers real world experiance with his non controlled experiments using bcaas is weak and transparent. His claims based on real world experience is null and void.

i dont mean to argue with or oppose you but you have to see that whats sauce for goose aint ness sauce for the gander. i had the same training partner for close on 10yrs, some supps worked him and not on me and vice versa. and believe me i tried everything poss to get an extra kilo or two on my three lifts, naturally with supps that is. not to say aminos dont work but they arent ness as an extra therefore not worth it, can easily get em thru shakes and diet.

[IM708]

i dont mean to argue with or oppose you but you have to see that whats sauce for goose aint ness sauce for the gander. i had the same training partner for close on 10yrs, some supps worked him and not on me and vice versa. and believe me i tried everything poss to get an extra kilo or two on my three lifts, naturally with supps that is. not to say aminos dont work but they arent ness as an extra therefore not worth it, can easily get em thru shakes and diet.

My argument has never been that they are neccesary or not, simply that they have been proven scientifically to be benefical supplement. I know through a great diet that all of this can be acheived and never once argued against that. But circumstances are different among people. But to simply say that x sucks because it didn't work for me when contradictory data excists to say otherwise is just dumb. As you said some things worked for your partner that didn't work for you.

[gbrice75]

Jesus guys, can anyone say hijack??!! LoL, actually I don't care - your arguments are informative and just a bit entertaining to be honest!

Since I'm the OP, I'd like to add my .02 on all of this. It sounds to me like you guys are splitting hairs. At the end of the day, 95% of this 'sport' or whatever you want to call it is proper training, diet, and rest. The other 5% (supps, the latest trends, etc.) aren't going to make or break anybody IMO. One person isn't going to be the next Mr. Olympia because he took supps. vs. the other guy who did everything exactly the same except for the supps.

I think certain supps are useful, but as Iron Maiden (or was is Swifto?) pointed out - they are SUPPS - not the 'meat and potatoes' of anybody's regimen.

And for what it's worth, I think personal experience counts for a HELLUVA lot - after all, that is how we evolved over all of these years - trial and error. Scientific experiments are nothing more than trial and error in themselves, and you often find years down the road new data that debunks what people went on believing for decades. Christ, people thought the world was flat! A few years ago, Pluto was considered a planet! Science is PROGRESSIVE - and many things that we consider PROVEN today will change in years to come....

Please don't flame me for what I have stated above which is nothing more than MY OPINION. I am by no means any kind of expert or anything close to that; my body is testament to that. So let's get back to what we're all here for, kick @ss in the gym and push ourselves beyond the limits!

[dec11]

Jesus guys, can anyone say hijack??!! LoL, actually I don't care - your arguments are informative and just a bit entertaining to be honest!

Since I'm the OP, I'd like to add my .02 on all of this. It sounds to me like you guys are splitting hairs. At the end of the day, 95% of this 'sport' or whatever you want to call it is proper training, diet, and rest. The other 5% (supps, the latest trends, etc.) aren't going to make or break anybody IMO. One person isn't going to be the next Mr. Olympia because he took supps. vs. the other guy who did everything exactly the same except for the supps.

I think certain supps are useful, but as Iron Maiden (or was is Swifto?) pointed out - they are SUPPS - not the 'meat and potatoes' of anybody's regimen.

And for what it's worth, I think personal experience counts for a HELLUVA lot - after all, that is how we evolved over all of these years - trial and error. Scientific experiments are nothing more than trial and error in themselves, and you often find years down the road new data that debunks what people went on believing for decades. Christ, people thought the world was flat! A few years ago, Pluto was considered a planet! Science is PROGRESSIVE - and many things that we consider PROVEN today will change in years to come....

Please don't flame me for what I have stated above which is nothing more than MY OPINION. I am by no means any kind of expert or anything close to that; my body is testament to that. So let's get back to what we're all here for, kick @ss in the gym and push ourselves beyond the limits!

sorry for the hijack mate lol, good input from you aswell

[gbrice75]

sorry for the hijack mate lol, good input from you aswell

lol no worries, thanks!

[gunslinger2]

And for what it's worth, I think personal experience counts for a HELLUVA lot - after all, that is how we evolved over all of these years - trial and error. Scientific experiments are nothing more than trial and error in themselves, and you often find years down the road new data that debunks what people went on believing for decades. Christ, people thought the world was flat! A few years ago, Pluto was considered a planet! Science is PROGRESSIVE - and many things that we consider PROVEN today will change in years to come....

Thanks you for this input! I'm also sorry for the hijack but I do get rather pissed off when someone thinks they know everything about bodybuilding, especially at 19. I have said at least 3 times in this thread that I do think you need BCAA's, that was never in question. The question was Which supplements are a MUST? and they don't even break the top 10. Your money would be much better spent elsewhere.

[firsttimer22]

why is vitamin C a must supplement?
do you take it on cycle
how much do you suggest

and in regards to a mult v....is the publix brand fine, or do i need like a more complex one made by a known manufacturer for training purposes?

[bradhore]

Any Multi Vitamin tablet is fine. Doesn't really matter about brand names when it comes to vitmains

[dec11]

vit c is useful for combating the rise in cortisol after a cycle. also while on, a a training session will raise cortisol