How much cardio is too much cardio?

[hollowedzeus]

Hi guys.

I'm 18 years old on no performance enhancmentry exceat austinite's otc synephrine,green tea and chromium.

Currently carb cycling and eating 3000 calories on my high carb and 2300ish on my lower days.

I was advised a while back to just up the cardio to twice a day if I wanted my physique bad enough.

I have been doing this and currently on my cut I have went from 211lbs to 174lbs....

I am not arguing with the progress as I am losing and seeing more veins.

Essentially my question is...

Will doing cardio twice a day every day like I've been doing damage my LBM....

My cardio is over an hour 15% incline treadmill at 6km/hrs

Sorry for the novel guys. Any input would be fabby-doo

Zeus

[DocToxin8]

Will it damage your lean body mass?
Not at your level.
Take a look at Olympic sprinters and runners,
and you can easily see the amount of muscle mass that's in accordance with varying levels of endurance. A 60-100m sprinter is pretty muscular. And you can guess how much cardio he does.

But when you reach a certain level of muscle mass it will be difficult to maintain it while doing lots of cardio. But more important is the aspect of gaining muscle mass. That's where cardio can be very restrictive.
Too much and it will halt growth.
Best bet is to do interval training, and always keep glucose levels up. (This is more for increasing stamina than losing fat, for losing fat id continue what you do)

But for cutting like you do just continue with what works.
Then, when you feel you've lost enough fat,
drop down the cardio and simply focus on lifting to gain mass.
If you start to gain fat then both look at your diet and do more cardio.
But at 170ish pounds (that's about 170/2,2= 77kg), if you still got some fat and are higher than 175cm, that's a mass you can retain while doing quite a lot of cardio IMO.

[hollowedzeus]

Thank you for the lengthy response doc.

I was a bit confused with the last part. I am 5'11 at around 79ish kg. Do you think I should keep doing more cardio? You said it was a weight that I could retain. Could you clarify on what you meant thanks!

To give you an idea of where I'm at. I'll put a couple of pictures. First 2 are before and last is now

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[hollowedzeus]

Also what kind of body fat % do you think I am now roughly?

[Couchlock]

Also what kind of body fat % do you think I am now roughly?

about 25 ush

[hollowedzeus]

about 25 ush

Jesus man. That's hiiiiighhhh. Thought I was lower than that!

[DocToxin8]

Sorry, I can go into rants sometimes.

What I meant was simply that the less muscle you have, the more cardio you can do before you inhibit further growth and at one point even will cause muscle mass to dwindle.

At your level you could absolutely get away with a lot of cardio.

Think of it like this;
The more versatile you try to be, the less specialized you will be.
A distance runner is light weight, a shot put athlete heavy as fuck.
The shot put athlete would be poorer at shot putting if he started to run 1 hour each day, as he is very specialized at doing one task that requires a lot of mass.

But if you look at sports that require both stamina and strength then look at boxers f.ex. (Technique being most important obviously, but disregard that)

What I mean by weight and height was simply that if you had 10%BF and weighed 80kgs at 160cm you'd be ver big, at 180cm you'd be just an average weight. The pictures you included said a a lot more.
You still have some BF to lose, so I'd stick with the cardio you've progressed so well with. Awesome job losing that weight.
Keep it up a little further. If you feel the cardio is draining you to the point you can't lift good then it's too much. But as long as manage to lift I'd keep it up.
Maybe slow down the tempo, check your heart rate.

[hollowedzeus]

Thank you so much! Was exactly the type of answer I was gunning for. I will continue to do what I am doing right now. You cleared it up for me doc

Keep safe and keep giving your great advice man!

[Marsoc]

Hi guys.

I'm 18 years old on no performance enhancmentry exceat austinite's otc synephrine,green tea and chromium.

Currently carb cycling and eating 3000 calories on my high carb and 2300ish on my lower days.

I was advised a while back to just up the cardio to twice a day if I wanted my physique bad enough.

I have been doing this and currently on my cut I have went from 211lbs to 174lbs....

I am not arguing with the progress as I am losing and seeing more veins.

Essentially my question is...

Will doing cardio twice a day every day like I've been doing damage my LBM....

My cardio is over an hour 15% incline treadmill at 6km/hrs

Sorry for the novel guys. Any input would be fabby-doo

Zeus

Yes if you don't eat enough or take precautions to preserve your muscle mass. Just like army ranger school they say go in overweight cuz by the time they are done with you from all the physical endurance activity etc..you will drop a lot of weight. If I'm running a lot I take 20grams whey pre cardio and then I'll take a post cardio shake of 40grams roughly..

[Marsoc]

Will it damage your lean body mass?
Not at your level.
Take a look at Olympic sprinters and runners,
and you can easily see the amount of muscle mass that's in accordance with varying levels of endurance. A 60-100m sprinter is pretty muscular. And you can guess how much cardio he does.

But when you reach a certain level of muscle mass it will be difficult to maintain it while doing lots of cardio. But more important is the aspect of gaining muscle mass. That's where cardio can be very restrictive.
Too much and it will halt growth.
Best bet is to do interval training, and always keep glucose levels up. (This is more for increasing stamina than losing fat, for losing fat id continue what you do)

But for cutting like you do just continue with what works.
Then, when you feel you've lost enough fat,
drop down the cardio and simply focus on lifting to gain mass.
If you start to gain fat then both look at your diet and do more cardio.
But at 170ish pounds (that's about 170/2,2= 77kg), if you still got some fat and are higher than 175cm, that's a mass you can retain while doing quite a lot of cardio IMO.

Sprinting is different then running..running does nothing to build muscle but sprinting intervals will build muscle..like the Olympic sprinters you see with tree trunk quads and hams

[Marsoc]

Thank you for the lengthy response doc.

I was a bit confused with the last part. I am 5'11 at around 79ish kg. Do you think I should keep doing more cardio? You said it was a weight that I could retain. Could you clarify on what you meant thanks!

To give you an idea of where I'm at. I'll put a couple of pictures. First 2 are before and last is now

Attachment 167623



Attachment 167624



Attachment 167625

Id say keep running or do sprint intervals as a form of losing body fat, and add in weight training since that burns more calories coupled with cardio then just cardio alone and you will be conditioning your body when it comes to heavy lifting. Just take the proper precautions I pointed out to preserve your muscle mass during them training sessions ..looks like you got a decent figure. Just lose some fat while preserving the muscle you have under there. And then clean balk after you drop that weight and start gaining lean mass. I'm a big fan of bcaa and glutamine. Take a serving of that with your water while you run or lift and it will fuel your muscle and help prevent catabolism Im pretty sure. You at angle to where you can train your body and get great results naturally I'm sure. Just remember when it comes to changing how our body's look it take patience and dedication ..I wish I had all these answers when I was your age..I'd be an animal

[DocToxin8]

Sprinting is different then running..running does nothing to build muscle but sprinting intervals will build muscle..like the Olympic sprinters you see with tree trunk quads and hams

It's a simplified picture Marsoc.
(I'm also pretty certain sprinter do squats and lift weights, not just sprints)

Point is that cardio training at a certain level inhibits muscle growth.
Draining your muscle of ATP, glucose&nutrients during endurance training sends a direct signal to the mTOR complex to halt protein synthesis.
(Or that's the studies I have seen)

Your point about keeping protein intake high is very important though.
You can probably attain a lot of muscle mass and still do lots of cardio if supplementing enough, keeping BCAA, glutamine and glycogen levels high.

But at one point you will cross the threshold were muscle mass can't be attained or even held unto with lots of cardio.
At least, I believe that to be the case.
I also believe that amount of muscle mass to be fairly high,
higher than what most people will get naturally.

[Marsoc]

It's a simplified picture Marsoc.
(I'm also pretty certain sprinter do squats and lift weights, not just sprints)

Point is that cardio training at a certain level inhibits muscle growth.
Draining your muscle of ATP, glucose&nutrients during endurance training sends a direct signal to the mTOR complex to halt protein synthesis.
(Or that's the studies I have seen)

Your point about keeping protein intake high is very important though.
You can probably attain a lot of muscle mass and still do lots of cardio if supplementing enough, keeping BCAA, glutamine and glycogen levels high.

But at one point you will cross the threshold were muscle mass can't be attained or even held unto with lots of cardio.
At least, I believe that to be the case.
I also believe that amount of muscle mass to be fairly high,
higher than what most people will get naturally.

Yeah I known sprinters do weight training of sorts..especially front squatsand stuff for the core..just saying that sprints intervals alone build muscle mass opposed to just running long endurance cardio alone. But your right about it stalling gains or whatever..I seen this bodybuilder at my gym an he said the only cardio you will find him doing is running bAck in line at the buffet

[hollowedzeus]

Yeah I known sprinters do weight training of sorts..especially front squatsand stuff for the core..just saying that sprints intervals alone build muscle mass opposed to just running long endurance cardio alone. But your right about it stalling gains or whatever..I seen this bodybuilder at my gym an he said the only cardio you will find him doing is running bAck in line at the buffet

Hahah that's brilliant! I usually have bcaas on me during my work out unless I'm doing fasted cardio. In which case I would take yohimbine and sip water. I always have glutamine after work outs

[DocToxin8]

Hahah that's brilliant! I usually have bcaas on me during my work out unless I'm doing fasted cardio. In which case I would take yohimbine and sip water. I always have glutamine after work outs

BCAA and glutamine, as Marsoc said, is a tremendous aid for not getting catabolic. So if always include that when doing cardio, or lifting for that matter.

Interval training is supposed to be better for increasing stamina without tearing away at muscle mass. But I don't know if it will be as effective when it comes to fat loss.

But main point here is that you can get very muscular and still do lots of cardio.
So you don't need to be afraid of it IMO.
(But use supplements, BCAA are actually fat burning as well as anti catabolic)

[hollowedzeus]

If you guy's reccomendation of bcaas is so high...

What is your opinion on fasted cardio with yohimbine?

Worth it? Yay or nay?

[fit_deskjocky]

I say Yay, atleast for a morning cardio. My biggest concern is that you may eventually get tired of the same cardio, grinding it out on the treadmill. I recommend that you mix it up with some HIIT, if even one day a week. Are you lifting in addition to your cardio?

[hollowedzeus]

I say Yay, atleast for a morning cardio. My biggest concern is that you may eventually get tired of the same cardio, grinding it out on the treadmill. I recommend that you mix it up with some HIIT, if even one day a week. Are you lifting in addition to your cardio?

I'm absolutely no lifing it right now to be honest man. I try to get the the gym in the morning and do treadmill for an hour. Then go to the gym later and do weights 4 or 5 days a week.

On the days I don't go twice I do cardio before and after I lift.

Yeah I'm getting pretty sick of it but I will not be fat again. Fed up being the chubby 'big guy'.

Also what kind of hiit do you reccomend. I have access to a weighted sled that can be pulled and pushed. I used to do that for 10 minutes on occassion

[hollowedzeus]

Always do cardio after a lifting session

[Marsoc]

Hahah that's brilliant! I usually have bcaas on me during my work out unless I'm doing fasted cardio. In which case I would take yohimbine and sip water. I always have glutamine after work outs

I take optimum nutritions Pro bcaa plus glutamine !! Lol. It's not sugar or carbs at all maybe...perhaps 1 gram carbs so it won't effect your fastand it will fuel your body

[Marsoc]

I'm absolutely no lifing it right now to be honest man. I try to get the the gym in the morning and do treadmill for an hour. Then go to the gym later and do weights 4 or 5 days a week.

On the days I don't go twice I do cardio before and after I lift.

Yeah I'm getting pretty sick of it but I will not be fat again. Fed up being the chubby 'big guy'.

Also what kind of hiit do you reccomend. I have access to a weighted sled that can be pulled and pushed. I used to do that for 10 minutes on occassion

Honestly that's not good if your getting sick of it..sometimes I can't wait to go and push myself and break thresholds to recover and come back stronger and faster and sexier lol..but seriously staying motivated is one of the biggest keys to success dedication and motivation because if not it seems like a job or your a Soave to it..then it makes you don't want to do it.

Honestly check out my "Earth Gym" thread. It has examples of routines I do. I was limited at first before I had a gym pass but now i have a pass I been easing into it..
Lots of super sets (one move followed by another move that works the same muscle group) or lots of drop sets, strip sets, pre exhaust , post exhausts..etc etc..I honestly hit the random button sometimes to keep it fresh ad exciting lol. And you can even super set squats with cycling sprint intervals ..i.e do some squats then if you can walk ,run or lunge to the bike and pedal as fast as you can for about 30seconds.
Personaly I changed it up a bit last leg day. And instead of squats super set with leg press I did my squats and then I did these plyometrics jump squats..just a regular air squat but I held on to a 35lb plate and when I was on my way up I jumped as I as I could off the ground and landed stable then ass to the ground and repeat as many as I could ..kicked my ass honestly. I was breathing heavy. ( So squats Andy then the weighted jumping squats)

[hollowedzeus]

Great man will definetly check that out! I'm right in saying you're natural aswell?

Never tried mixing cardio and lifting . . Sounds like it could get messy!

[hollowedzeus]

Actually never mind haha checked your profile. The guy that I've seen posting and I was thinking of was natural and started with an m on his username sorry lol!

[IFEARSKINNYME]

For me anything passed 100 calories burned

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk

[Marsoc]

Great man will definetly check that out! I'm right in saying you're natural aswell?

Never tried mixing cardio and lifting . . Sounds like it could get messy!

yes I'm all natural lol. I have everything I need to start my first cycle I just been playing around with my diet and seeing how I can develop first before I start a cycle. To Lower my body fat..I'm probably around 14% now roughly. Give or take

[hollowedzeus]

yes I'm all natural lol. I have everything I need to start my first cycle I just been playing around with my diet and seeing how I can develop first before I start a cycle. To Lower my body fat..I'm probably around 14% now roughly. Give or take

Oh right haha sorry. It's gonna be ages till I'm anywhere near 14% :'(

[tarmyg]

I am going to slightly disagree about the BCAA and fat loss here. If you have a high protein intake to begin this BCAA is not going to do much for fat loss. It might, in fact, do the opposite.

[hollowedzeus]

I am going to slightly disagree about the BCAA and fat loss here. If you have a high protein intake to begin this BCAA is not going to do much for fat loss. It might, in fact, do the opposite.

Why do you think it would do the opposite? Because they are not needed?

[Nephets]

Why do you think it would do the opposite? Because they are not needed?

my guess is your giving your body an energy souse to burn in stead of fat. I asked this question on here a couple days ago.

[hollowedzeus]

my guess is your giving your body an energy souse to burn in stead of fat. I asked this question on here a couple days ago.

It seems like it's a tricky subject... all I know is that when I was on keto I never took any BCAA or that incase it spiked my glucose levels. So I would lean towards just using water during fasted cardio and such

[songdog]

You are doing good keep up the good work!

[DocToxin8]

BCAA, or more notably leucine, has been shown in animal experiments to hinder fat gain even whet the diet was the same as the control group.
Granted this was in rats I believe, and both groups were put on a hyper caloric diet high in fat. The leucine was simply added to the drinking water.

I'll check out some more studies on this, but I'm actually wondering if BCAA's, at least leucine which seems to be the most powerful mTOR activator of the three BCAA's, will increase fat loss or increase LBM even when you do get enough BCAAs through whey supplementation. But I don't know.

But BCAAs are certainly smart to take in addition to whey protein. From other studies I've seen that adding leucine to a whey protein shake plus simple carbs increases protein synthesis more than the whey shake alone.
My thinking has been that when you ingest amino acids in free form you might obtain a different biological response than loading up on the same amino acids from protein. Thinking being that if you shot down 7g leucine your body and receptors (like mTOR), are getting a higher substrate for the receptor than it would by slowly releasing the same amino acids from protein.
Arginine and it's reaction with the NOS enzyme f.ex.
Do arginine rich food types have the same benefits or able to elicit as powerful a response? Some doctors report success in studies using high amounts of free arginine to treat a host of symptoms, like moderate hypertension.
Others have failed to replicate that result.

Ok, now I'm drifting off.

[tarmyg]

There was a study in 2016 that supported using BCAA during a calorie restricted diet (REF: In a single-blind, matched group design: branched-chain amino acid supplementation and resistance training maintains lean body mass during a caloric restricted diet | Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition | Full Text). Once people started reading this and dug into the very pure mathematics of it some problems were discovered. You can read a Letter to the Editor here: https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/arti...970-016-0128-9

Bottom line, BCAA will not help or is yet to be proven to help, with maintaining lean mass during a calorie restricted diet. Enough protein and a good lifting program, on the other hand, is very useful in this regard.

[hollowedzeus]

You are doing good keep up the good work!

Thank you songdog! I have a long way to go!

[hollowedzeus]

BCAA, or more notably leucine, has been shown in animal experiments to hinder fat gain even whet the diet was the same as the control group.
Granted this was in rats I believe, and both groups were put on a hyper caloric diet high in fat. The leucine was simply added to the drinking water.

I'll check out some more studies on this, but I'm actually wondering if BCAA's, at least leucine which seems to be the most powerful mTOR activator of the three BCAA's, will increase fat loss or increase LBM even when you do get enough BCAAs through whey supplementation. But I don't know.

But BCAAs are certainly smart to take in addition to whey protein. From other studies I've seen that adding leucine to a whey protein shake plus simple carbs increases protein synthesis more than the whey shake alone.
My thinking has been that when you ingest amino acids in free form you might obtain a different biological response than loading up on the same amino acids from protein. Thinking being that if you shot down 7g leucine your body and receptors (like mTOR), are getting a higher substrate for the receptor than it would by slowly releasing the same amino acids from protein.
Arginine and it's reaction with the NOS enzyme f.ex.
Do arginine rich food types have the same benefits or able to elicit as powerful a response? Some doctors report success in studies using high amounts of free arginine to treat a host of symptoms, like moderate hypertension.
Others have failed to replicate that result.

Ok, now I'm drifting off.

This is bonkers... the amount of people that praise BCAA for everything...

I will definetly check out some studies on the topic. I have never really been one for ingesting them separately. As when the seem to be called most useful - in a fasted state- they seem to be counterproductive as I believe that it causes a rise in glucose....

I've also been avoiding arginine supplementation around fasting hmm

It's interesting... not a doubt about that.

Also the rat study you mentioned, do you know if there has ever been such a study on humans? Thanks for your input

[hollowedzeus]

There was a study in 2016 that supported using BCAA during a calorie restricted diet (REF: In a single-blind, matched group design: branched-chain amino acid supplementation and resistance training maintains lean body mass during a caloric restricted diet | Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition | Full Text). Once people started reading this and dug into the very pure mathematics of it some problems were discovered. You can read a Letter to the Editor here: https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/arti...970-016-0128-9

Bottom line, BCAA will not help or is yet to be proven to help, with maintaining lean mass during a calorie restricted diet. Enough protein and a good lifting program, on the other hand, is very useful in this regard.

Thank you for digging and finding that study for me.

I am beginning to believe bcaas are overhyped. The last part of what you said caught my attention.

It seems that bcaas for many people who are not usual lifters (so not anyone on this board)... love this supplement as they see it as a cheat sheet...

To clarify what I mean - your average person trying to lose weight would supplement all day with a BCAA drink because it tastes nice and it will stop LBM reduction whilst following iifym.

However the lifting community I believe BCAA are essential yes but not in the way that others thibk. And in its stead eat every two hours and train smartly to reverse catabolism..

May be wrong haha correct me if I am. Learning as I go.

Thanks for your thoughts

[fit_deskjocky]

The weighted sled is a great tool. Honestly, you can make up any HIIT sessions. The intensity is really all that matters. Mix it up with things you really enjoy and look forward doing. create a list. Mountain Climbers, box jumps, jumping jacks, kettlebell swings, battling ropes, bench step ups, sprints, burpees, jump rope, tire flips, sledgehammer swings, bodyweight squats, dumbell clean and press, goblet squats. But what ever you choose to do, do it for a minute straight. Since you are lifting in the evening, you may want to choose movements that don't involve the muscle groups you are going to be working later that same day. Main thing is to have fun and enjoy it, and look to improve on it.

[fit_deskjocky]

Honestly check out my "Earth Gym" thread. It has examples of routines I do. I was limited at first before I had a gym pass but now i have a pass I been easing into it..

I really like your earth gym concept. Never miss a chance to incorporate something into a workout. Especially when it has real world applications.

[Marsoc]

There was a study in 2016 that supported using BCAA during a calorie restricted diet (REF: In a single-blind, matched group design: branched-chain amino acid supplementation and resistance training maintains lean body mass during a caloric restricted diet | Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition | Full Text). Once people started reading this and dug into the very pure mathematics of it some problems were discovered. You can read a Letter to the Editor here: https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/arti...970-016-0128-9

Bottom line, BCAA will not help or is yet to be proven to help, with maintaining lean mass during a calorie restricted diet. Enough protein and a good lifting program, on the other hand, is very useful in this regard.

if,we are talking about preserving lean muscle mass here etcetc.. what would having a good lifting program like you said have anything to do with that..if anything that breaks down muscles. ..it doesn't help preserve ..that's what diet is for? And beyond that I sure hope bcaa and glutamine at least helps..or I want my money back lol it def keeps me satisfied for a while when I'm not eating for periods of time

[Marsoc]

I really like your earth gym concept. Never miss a chance to incorporate something into a workout. Especially when it has real world applications.

Thanks..it was when I didn't have a gym pass and I was making domwith what I had , wether that was outside training or a home gym etc. and just generally me logging me easing into training again after a 2 year break..prior to the break I only lifted about a year or two ..but before that I haven't conditioned for Fkin years man lol..