the amazement of tren

[THE-DET-OAK]

just never needed to prove anything buddy.............we are kind of side tracking this thread..............just saying.

[marcus300]

Warning:

Can I just remind everyone that we do have rules and they must be abided by at all times. Please debate as much as you like giving evidence and opinion all the way so long as they are not violating the rules. If you want to take it to a personal level please use the PM function.

[Swifto]

Warning:

Can I just remind everyone that we do have rules and they must be abided by at all times. Please debate as much as you like giving evidence and opinion all the way so long as they are not violating the rules. If you want to take it to a personal level please use the PM function.

Agreed.

[THE-DET-OAK]

ive tried to do nothing but debate and give advice, people have taken far more shots at me than I have at them.

[dec11]

I would like to say dec11 don't add oil to the flame. If he is annoying he will get what he deserves.

hopefully soon. apparently we should be using winstrol as an ancillary etc, this is the type of crap hes advising noobs!!

[PowerliftWill]

clueless, just clueless.

Not that I agree with everything det oak says, but how is this clueless? Im very gyno prone as mentioned in other threads not to mention the test is giving so much water retention, not even the tren can show it's cutting and hardening effects.

On top of that, I'd like to keep my estro down so I have a lesser chance of getting pgr sides.

[Swifto]

I like the 375 idea. letro sounds like a good idea, it will increase T levels too. an even better idea though to me would be to go on lower dose and add something to lower SHBG, like masteron. I never suggest tapering but it might be wise to taper down to desired dose in this case. I hope it works out for ya bro.....................

Two things.

1. Why will Letro increase exogenous testosterone ?

2. Why add Masteron , or another DHT-derivative when clinical studies demonstrate exogenous testosterone decreases SHBG in a dose dependant manner?

[dec11]

Not that I agree with everything det oak says, but how is this clueless? Im very gyno prone as mentioned in other threads not to mention the test is giving so much water retention, not even the tren can show it's cutting and hardening effects.

On top of that, I'd like to keep my estro down so I have a lesser chance of getting pgr sides.

letro is a harsh last ditch effort in getting rid of gyno, far better alternatives for estro control on cycle mate

i too hold water on test and when ive used tren i dry up very quickly from it

[marcus300]

In the setting menu there is an ignore function, this could come a handy tool for the members who struggle with not adhering to the rules

[THE-DET-OAK]

letro is a harsh last ditch effort in getting rid of gyno, far better alternatives for estro control on cycle mate

dec you keep saying that but its simply not true. not only can it be effective on cycle but it can be effective on TRT doses as well. what harsh sides are you so worried about??? lowering estrogen 99% is only if you take 2.5mg ED (so says the studies). whats wrong, in your opinion, of taking much smaller doses????

[dec11]

dec you keep saying that but its simply not true. not only can it be effective on cycle but it can be effective on TRT doses as well. what harsh sides are you so worried about??? lowering estrogen 99% is only if you take 2.5mg ED (so says the studies). whats wrong, in your opinion, of taking much smaller doses????

i'll hand this over to swifto...........

[THE-DET-OAK]

i'll hand this over to swifto...........

I would love to hear his input, I have, and many many others not only have used letro many times successfully, but sometimes its the only AI that works for some.

[Swifto]

dec you keep saying that but its simply not true. not only can it be effective on cycle but it can be effective on TRT doses as well. what harsh sides are you so worried about??? lowering estrogen 99% is only if you take 2.5mg ED (so says the studies). whats wrong, in your opinion, of taking much smaller doses????

I'm going to kind of agree with you here and state that - Letro acts rather differently in males than it does in elderly or female cancer patients. In those studies it pretty much destroy's estrogen. I'm not saying it cant in males, as it does and can, but it seems as though its a very independent compound acting quite differently in one subject to the other.

The same can be said for Arimidex and Aromasin . Many of these ball park figures of 60-99% for AI's in profiles are conducted on women, mainly cancer patients, infertile men (low T, high E), obese men/women (low T, high E) and elderly subjects. This has a great deal of impact on their ability to decrease aromotase from person to person.

In a general sense, I'd assume Letro is too strong of an AI to use and should only be used by those VERY prone to estrogenic sides (acne/gyno/water retention), pre-contest, large amounts of aromotasables (mega doses) and gyno reversal.

That opinion is most of which I have seen on these boards and clinical data. I've read and had correspondence from (PM) from AAS user's taking doses of Letro at 0.25-2.5mg/ED and it destroying their estrogen. Yes, doses as low as 0.25mg/ED. I'd also speculate that Letro can be directly toxic to the joints, much like other non-steroidal type II AI's, such as, Arimidex.

I've said it a million times, Aromasin (or ATD based) is my AI of choice and it will stay that way until something better comes a long.

[dec11]

dec you keep saying that but its simply not true. not only can it be effective on cycle but it can be effective on TRT doses as well. what harsh sides are you so worried about??? lowering estrogen 99% is only if you take 2.5mg ED (so says the studies). whats wrong, in your opinion, of taking much smaller doses????

lets have your theory on winstrol as an ancillary while you're at it?? dying to hear this explained

[THE-DET-OAK]

I've said it a million times, Aromasin (or ATD based) is my AI of choice and it will stay that way until something better comes a long.

I agree that aromasin is the best AI to use. even @ 25mg ED studies have shown, on men, to keep E2 within range. Although .25mg ED is too much of letro is too much. .625mg E3D works fine for most, I have also worked with many, many patients on TRT and this dose work just fine, even with bloodwork to prove it.

[PowerliftWill]

letro is a harsh last ditch effort in getting rid of gyno, far better alternatives for estro control on cycle mate

i too hold water on test and when ive used tren i dry up very quickly from it

Ya but im not seeing any drying up. I do need to drop my test down tho since im super sensitive. I think trying the trt dose would be good. 750mg/wk is just too much without an AI for me. Plus I might try and cut up these last few weeks on cycle since i feel im gaining too much BF....despite a solid diet. So i know the water is killin me.

[THE-DET-OAK]

lets have your theory on winstrol as an ancillary while you're at it?? dying to hear this explained

I never said winny is good as an ancillarie. yet for those that have prolactin issues, a small dose can me more effecitve than prami. prami does not work for everyone, and not everyone can get Pharm grade caber.

I said that winny at 10mg can lower SHBG up to 40%, and yes there are studies to prove it.

[Swifto]

I agree that aromasin is the best AI to use. even @ 25mg ED studies have shown, on men, to keep E2 within range. Although .25mg ED is too much of letro is too much. .625mg E3D works fine for most, I have also worked with many, many patients on TRT and this dose work just fine, even with bloodwork to prove it.

What is it exactly you do and how old are you may I ask?

I never said winny is good as an ancillarie. yet for those that have prolactin issues, a small dose can me more effecitve than prami. prami does not work for everyone, and not everyone can get Pharm grade caber.

I said that winny at 10mg can lower SHBG up to 40%, and yes there are studies to prove it.

Using a DHT-derivative as the sole source of estrogen control does not work for me, but it does others.

For those sensitive to estrogenic sides (me) I can use a LOWER dose of the AI (Aromasin ) when using another DHT based AAS in the cycle. But its no substitute.

DHT is a very potent regulator of estrogen.

[Swifto]

Two things.

1. Why will Letro increase exogenous testosterone ?

2. Why add Masteron, or another DHT-derivative when clinical studies demonstrate exogenous testosterone decreases SHBG in a dose dependant manner?

Bump...

[dec11]

Ya but im not seeing any drying up. I do need to drop my test down tho since im super sensitive. I think trying the trt dose would be good. 750mg/wk is just too much without an AI for me. Plus I might try and cut up these last few weeks on cycle since i feel im gaining too much BF....despite a solid diet. So i know the water is killin me.

id give the tren another week 1st mate, it hits me all of a sudden around 3wks in and my body temp blazes and water falls off, mainly through embarrassing sweats lol. you could also drop the test down if you wanted

[THE-DET-OAK]

Bump...

letro has been shown, in elderly hypo men, to increase TT levels. it was tried as a treatment of hypo. anytime you slow aroma conversly TT levels will rise, for a time period.

I am very aware that exogenous T will lower SHBG, and normally SHBG is not a problem on TRT ,unless it gets too low, for long periods of time.

when i suggested masteron it was due to the fact that i suggested a much smaller dose of T for him, i have ran the tren /mast/T a few times and it is by far the best cycle I have done. he also mentioned his vascularity is low on lower doses of T, masteron helps me with that for sure.

[PowerliftWill]

id give the tren another week 1st mate, it hits me all of a sudden around 3wks in and my body temp blazes and water falls off, mainly through embarrassing sweats lol. you could also drop the test down if you wanted

Thanks for the advice...the tren staying on no matter what so i'll see what happens. As for the test it's probably smart if I do drop it down just because I started the cycle at around 15% BF, which at that bf already increases estro sides, so that's probably where most of the issue is coming from in the first place.

[THE-DET-OAK]

i am in my thirties, but do not care to show who or what company i work on the open board, if you were willing to keep it to yourself I would be more than happy to explain through PM.

[dec11]

letro has been shown, in elderly hypo men, to increase TT levels. it was tried as a treatment of hypo. anytime you slow aroma conversly TT levels will rise, for a time period.

I am very aware that exogenous T will lower SHBG, and normally SHBG is not a problem on TRT ,unless it gets too low, for long periods of time.

when i suggested masteron it was due to the fact that i suggested a much smaller dose of T for him, i have ran the tren /mast/T a few times and it is by far the best cycle I have done. he also mentioned his vascularity is low on lower doses of T, masteron helps me with that for sure.

pointless at 12-14% bf

[THE-DET-OAK]

pointless at 12-14% bf

so you say, or should i say so you have heard. if nothing else, a small dose of masteron will have you harder than you have ever been in your life, downstairs. people think that just cause its an injectable, you cant use like proviron .

[dec11]

I agree that aromasin is the best AI to use. even @ 25mg ED studies have shown, on men, to keep E2 within range. Although .25mg ED is too much of letro is too much. .625mg E3D works fine for most, I have also worked with many, many patients on TRT and this dose work just fine, even with bloodwork to prove it.

why keep quoting dr scally then, if you are so versed yourself?

[THE-DET-OAK]

why keep quoting dr scally then, if you are so versed yourself?

I only wish to one day have the experience and knowledge he has. and i only quote things about PCT from, since there is no way for me to pull studies on that subject.

[Swifto]

letro has been shown, in elderly hypo men, to increase TT levels. it was tried as a treatment of hypo. anytime you slow aroma conversly TT levels will rise, for a time period.

I am very aware that exogenous T will lower SHBG, and normally SHBG is not a problem on TRT ,unless it gets too low, for long periods of time.

when i suggested masteron it was due to the fact that i suggested a much smaller dose of T for him, i have ran the tren/mast/T a few times and it is by far the best cycle I have done. he also mentioned his vascularity is low on lower doses of T, masteron helps me with that for sure.

I'm aware of the Androgen:Estrogen ratio, trust me.

But that has f*ck all to do with when one is on cycle using exogenous testosterone . So I'll ask again:

How will Letro increase testosterone on cycle, as thats what you implied, unless you got confised?

Your quote:

I like the 375 idea. letro sounds like a good idea, it will increase T levels too. an even better idea though to me would be to go on lower dose and add something to lower SHBG, like masteron. I never suggest tapering but it might be wise to taper down to desired dose in this case. I hope it works out for ya bro.....................

Your obviously not aware exogenous testosterone has a graded effect on SHBG levels in healthy adult males, as you wouldnt have stated your "better" idea of using "Masteron to decrease it".

SHBG doesnt usually become "too low" during HRT, in my experience, it can increases... How many patients have you actually dealt with then?

[dec11]

so you say, or should i say so you have heard. if nothing else, a small dose of masteron will have you harder than you have ever been in your life, downstairs. people think that just cause its an injectable, you cant use like proviron.

ive trained ppl who used it and got nothing but alittle strength and aggression, weren't low enough to see changes.

i love the way you come on to this board and post whore 260 posts in 3 days and tell us all how it is and how it should be done, your nothing but an irritant, did you get kicked off another board for annoying ppl?

[dec11]

I only wish to one day have the experience and knowledge he has. and i only quote things about PCT from, since there is no way for me to pull studies on that subject.

well tell us all what you do then and lets see this fantastic physic you must have from all that knowledge we are apparently so ignorant to?

[PowerliftWill]

ive trained ppl who used it and got nothing but alittle strength and aggression, weren't low enough to see changes.

i love the way you come on to this board and post whore 260 posts in 3 days and tell us all how it is and how it should be done, your nothing but an irritant, did you get kicked off another board for annoying ppl?

hmmmm fishy.......as for mast bro, I know my BF is no where near low enough to see it's effects that's why I said I didn't want to add it a few pages back. As for letro tho right now I need it since my gyno is flaring up plus to rid me of water while im backing down my test dosage. Plus i've decided to cut the last few weeks of my cycle because my BF is not where I thought it would be after adding tren ,.

[THE-DET-OAK]

I'm aware of the Androgen:Estrogen ratio, trust me.

But that has f*ck all to do with when one is on cycle using exogenous testosterone . So I'll ask again:

How will Letro increase testosterone on cycle, as thats what you implied, unless you got confised?

Your quote:



Your obviously not aware exogenous testosterone has a graded effect on SHBG levels in healthy adult males, as you wouldnt have stated your "better" idea of using "Masteron to decrease it".

SHBG doesnt usually become "too low" during HRT, in my experience, it can increases... How many patients have you actually dealt with then?

i suggested 300mg a week to him, not a far cry from a TRT dose, I will ask you what the hell is the difference? oh wait it will have the same effect wether we call it a "cycle" or we call it "trt" either way its androgen therapy.

and yes masteron will decrease SHBG even more, so what the hell is your point anyway??? your argument is not going anywhere, and now your getting mad. you say why add masteron, I say why not.

Like i said before, ususally on TRT it is the issue of not letting SHBG get too low............................................... ...........................I guess your just one of the many masteron hater's

EDIT: to imply that since its a "cycle" dose letro will not have the same tetor totter effect is just............well............silly

[THE-DET-OAK]

also mr swifto what do you think is going to happen to his free T when he drops to 300 from 750mg?????? exactly.

[THE-DET-OAK]

dec you say you have worked with people and mast shows no effect cause they were too fat: this is a prime example of BBer's being too wrapped up in "gains" to remember these medications can be used for therapeutic effects. or maybe their DHT conversion sucks. I guess you could just rub some androgel on your balls.......................that will work too.

for instance maybe someone has a hard time keeping hard downstairs on low-dose T, why do they have to take HAVE to take proviron instead of masteron to remedy that situation??????? its not like I suggested a gram of masteron.................................

[dec11]

dec you say you have worked with people and mast shows no effect cause they were too fat: this is a prime example of BBer's being too wrapped up in "gains" to remember these medications can be used for therapeutic effects. or maybe their DHT conversion sucks. I guess you could just rub some androgel on your balls.......................that will work too.

for instance maybe someone has a hard time keeping hard downstairs on low-dose T, why do they have to take HAVE to take proviron instead of masteron to remedy that situation??????? its not like I suggested a gram of masteron.................................

anyone with a brain would find the root cause and treat it rather than throw a compound at it.....
you seem to like cracking nuts with sledgehammers

[dec11]

dec you say you have worked with people and mast shows no effect cause they were too fat: this is a prime example of BBer's being too wrapped up in "gains" to remember these medications can be used for therapeutic effects. or maybe their DHT conversion sucks. I guess you could just rub some androgel on your balls.......................that will work too.

for instance maybe someone has a hard time keeping hard downstairs on low-dose T, why do they have to take HAVE to take proviron instead of masteron to remedy that situation??????? its not like I suggested a gram of masteron.................................

who said i was a bb'er? i believe in efficiently using compounds to what they are best suited to and not bending them to fit. you want to hold back on your presumptions a bit there, they make you look rather foolish

[THE-DET-OAK]

anyone with a brain would find the root cause and treat it rather than throw a compound at it.....
you seem to like cracking nuts with sledgehammers

this doesnt make any sense dec, its easy to figure out the root of the problem...............there is no other way to fix it. unless lowering prolactin is needed, which i doubt, but even then you would have to "throw another compound at it".

[THE-DET-OAK]

who said i was a bb'er? i believe in efficiently using compounds to what they are best suited to and not bending them to fit. you want to hold back on your presumptions a bit there, they make you look rather foolish

I have recommended therapeutic doses of winny, masteron and anavar ...............they were all rubbish to you without good reason.

[dec11]

I have recommended therapeutic doses of winny, masteron and anavar ...............they were all rubbish to you without good reason.

i'll say it again then, control the symptoms rather than throw compounds and possibilities at them

[Swifto]

i suggested 300mg a week to him, not a far cry from a TRT dose, I will ask you what the hell is the difference? oh wait it will have the same effect wether we call it a "cycle" or we call it "trt" either way its androgen therapy.

and yes masteron will decrease SHBG even more, so what the hell is your point anyway??? your argument is not going anywhere, and now your getting mad. you say why add masteron, I say why not.

Like i said before, ususally on TRT it is the issue of not letting SHBG get too low............................................... ...........................I guess your just one of the many masteron hater's

EDIT: to imply that since its a "cycle" dose letro will not have the same tetor totter effect is just............well............silly

HRT doses range from 100mg/wk to well in excess of that depending on the subject.

Just tell me something...

If you have suggested a dose of 300mg/wk Test (high'ish HRT, low'ish cycle) and your HRT/TRT patients experience LOW SHBG more so than high SHBG, then why an earth suggest Masteron if it indeed (it does) lower it even more? Your post is in the context that, that is the primary reason you stated to use Masteron, not vascularity.