"Estrogen Control, Treatment, and PCT by WARMachine"

[digismash]

would the Tamox dosage be the same if you werent on a cycle and trying to get rid of pre existing gyno??

[RAMWolff]

wish I could help you. I was on cycle when I used it... didn't work that well so I got some liquid Torem from Ar-r and that worked very well. Off cycle have no idea at this point.... I'm wondering if I should use it off cycle myself to keep gyno from showing back up. Point is if it's not there now will it come back off cycle?

[The Trooper]

Hey WARMachine!
you´re the man!Just what i need to read!Excellent!
are you from Brazil too?

[Sincity_666]

^ Thanks bro.

Im working on getting it included in the AR Newbie Starter Pack.

Hopefully between there and the PCT stickies people will actually read it.

Til then i plan on pimping it out to anyone who will listen.

Lol.

Thanks for this post! It has really educated me. Question though for you war machine:
I plan on running 10weeks of test At 250mgs twice a week. I have a limited supply of provironum which I read on above. I have enough to run 7 weeks of 25mgs a day. I plan on running dbol for the first 4-6 weeks at 20mgs Ed. If this is my first cycle would it be a good idea to run as follows?

Week 1-6
test e 500mgs/week (250mgs twice a week)
Dianabol 20mgs ED
Provironum 25mgs ED

Week 7-10
Test 500mgs/week (same)
Stop dbol
Provironum 25mgs Ed runs out week 8

Week 12-16
Run Nolvadex and clomid
Nolva 40/40/20/20 ED
Clomid 100/50/50/50 ED

So will this work well? Is running provironum with only limited supply going to be negative? If Gyno starts will nolva do the job or will I need an AI to stop it or reverse it ? Would you run the provironum different? I have 50 25mg tabs.
I read you entire post and lots others, but still am a little unsure how to be safe. Please help and thanks for all the info, finally a complete read and nothing that contradicts things I have read off this site! Great job!

[phazein]

Great thread very useful information. I have had high estrogen levels my whole life. This will definitely help out.

[JR.]

quick reply from a former bitch tit king ha 5000 later and ten years of paying attention to guys such as yourself, got my cycles under control now thanks again! JR.

[BigJuice777]

Great read WAR... I'm new to the game and it's nice to have individuals who have the science behind the theory! I feel much more comfortable with my decisions when I can see the proved results. Thanks again!!

[RAMWolff]

I'm now using Liquid Clomi 35mg/ml from Ar-r and not sure if it's having any effects on my bod. I'm doing two oral syringes a day of it (I put it in two '00' vitamin caps since I don't care for the flavor. Not sure if I should be doing more. I posted in another thread, not one bit of help..... :-( I'm off cycle right now and don't want to start a new one until the acne is cleared, it's quite unsettling for me... one day the skin will look OK and then next... new breakout. Now since I've begun using this stuff seems stable, lower bumps and less breakouts... or it might that I've been off cycle for 6 weeks and counting.. not sure.

Thanks for the help, if any wants to help that is.....

[D7M]

I'm now using Liquid Clomi 35mg/ml from Ar-r and not sure if it's having any effects on my bod. I'm doing two oral syringes a day of it (I put it in two '00' vitamin caps since I don't care for the flavor. Not sure if I should be doing more. I posted in another thread, not one bit of help..... :-( I'm off cycle right now and don't want to start a new one until the acne is cleared, it's quite unsettling for me... one day the skin will look OK and then next... new breakout. Now since I've begun using this stuff seems stable, lower bumps and less breakouts... or it might that I've been off cycle for 6 weeks and counting.. not sure.

Thanks for the help, if any wants to help that is.....

Start a thread in the PCT section, bro.

We'll help you out.

[mg0922]

I know this post is really old, if your still on here war machine, i gotta say thanks~!!!! You answered every single question i had! I have my tamox ready at all times!
\
thx
mg

[Hard2Gain]

I am a little confused here. Granted I am really looking at trying to attack some gyno that I already have. I have been told that Letro or Ndex would probably be the best way to go about this. I have been searching for some doseages for Letro and have commonly heard .25-.5mg/day But then I read this and am now confused. This is a huge difference in doseages. Perhaps I missed something here as there is alot of information to take in. But being in the medical field, I can tell you that the difference between .25mg/ed and 40mg/ed is enough to frickn kill you or bring you pretty close to it.


This is a quote from about midway down on the first page:

"Femera (Letrozole ) : Letro is a competative Type II AI also. Also farely new compared to other compounds, it is shown to be effective at lowering estrogen by blocking the aromatase enzyme. Doses up to 2.5mg a day are used, but usually as low as .5mg a day can be just as effective. Clinical studies show Femera to lower estrogen by 75-78%, sometimes up to 95%. Once again, watch out for your blood lipids (cholesterol) to get out of whack. There may a noted rebound effect of estrogen levels that goes along with Letro use."

Here is another quote listed shortly after it:

That being said, im here to deliever.

(These are all, mgs, per day, per week.)

PCT

*Tamox - 40/40/20/20 --(Until Blood Results have confirmed the HPTA has indeed began to recover.)
*Clomid - 100/100/50/50 --(Above)
*Tormifene - 60/40/40/40 -- (Above)
**Aromasin - 20/20/20/20 --(Above)

*Use 2 SERMs, not all 3. I prefer Tamox and Clomid, but only because im yet to use Tormifene. From what i hear, Tormifene has recently been reported to be the best SERM at restarting an inhibited HPTA.(I will talk more about it later, just waiting on some info from Swifto.)

Not sure what I missed when I was reading this but it just does not seem to match up.

I am also assuming that I should be looking at running a cycle of Letro (don't know the length yet as I am still researching that) and then start on Nolva the last day of my Letro and going on that for a few more weeks to help control any rebound. The question is whether or not I should just use Nolva or go with Nolva and Clomid at the same time?

[action_jackson]

Hey War,
Ive read your writings and they are very interesting! Im still somewhat confused on all the types of gear and prohormone substances. Im looking to start a cycle, havent made my mind up if I want to begin with a prohormone before I did a cycle of AAS, so Im looking to see if you can give me some advice and possibly walk me through...I feel like you would be the man to count on!
Thanks buddy,

Send me an email if you can, thanks man!!!

edited

[asto_86]

I am a little confused here. Granted I am really looking at trying to attack some gyno that I already have. I have been told that Letro or Ndex would probably be the best way to go about this. I have been searching for some doseages for Letro and have commonly heard .25-.5mg/day But then I read this and am now confused. This is a huge difference in doseages. Perhaps I missed something here as there is alot of information to take in. But being in the medical field, I can tell you that the difference between .25mg/ed and 40mg/ed is enough to frickn kill you or bring you pretty close to it.


This is a quote from about midway down on the first page:

"Femera (Letrozole ) : Letro is a competative Type II AI also. Also farely new compared to other compounds, it is shown to be effective at lowering estrogen by blocking the aromatase enzyme. Doses up to 2.5mg a day are used, but usually as low as .5mg a day can be just as effective. Clinical studies show Femera to lower estrogen by 75-78%, sometimes up to 95%. Once again, watch out for your blood lipids (cholesterol) to get out of whack. There may a noted rebound effect of estrogen levels that goes along with Letro use."

Here is another quote listed shortly after it:

That being said, im here to deliever.

(These are all, mgs, per day, per week.)

PCT

*Tamox - 40/40/20/20 --(Until Blood Results have confirmed the HPTA has indeed began to recover.)
*Clomid - 100/100/50/50 --(Above)
*Tormifene - 60/40/40/40 -- (Above)
**Aromasin - 20/20/20/20 --(Above)

*Use 2 SERMs, not all 3. I prefer Tamox and Clomid, but only because im yet to use Tormifene. From what i hear, Tormifene has recently been reported to be the best SERM at restarting an inhibited HPTA.(I will talk more about it later, just waiting on some info from Swifto.)

Not sure what I missed when I was reading this but it just does not seem to match up.

I am also assuming that I should be looking at running a cycle of Letro (don't know the length yet as I am still researching that) and then start on Nolva the last day of my Letro and going on that for a few more weeks to help control any rebound. The question is whether or not I should just use Nolva or go with Nolva and Clomid at the same time?

I have the same concern as you after I am done with letro.

[wdalnaem]

damn great info

[Milldog52]

I know its been said loads of times, but what a desent read. Im by no means pro on PTC, I have used what others have told me to, but u have educated me and hopefully will help me in the not to distant future.
I like the fact people back up theories with facts.
Great work War

[harvin6]

BUMPed good info

[supazeus]

hey guys hopin someone will help me out here no answers on other threads. anyways i'm 19 years old never cycled before my gyno started developing september 2010 it hurt for awhile and at the time i had no clue about letro or nolva so did nothing about it. i still have a lump behind my nipple but it doesnt hurt to touch anymore but i don't want it to develop more and or get worse so should i try the nolva method to get rid of it? i'm currently on triazole by driven sports to see if that did anything but i don't think it is. like i said i think i got it from puberty as i didn't grow tall till i was 17 or 18. and i'm sure a damn doctor would say to wait it'll go away on its own. but i don't wanna risk it getting worse. so should i try the nolva method and if that doesn't work try letro? don't wanna fuk up my estrogen levels too bad or sex drive. any help is appreciated guys.

[Rick1796]

Best thread post/thread i have read on here. Thank you so much for making this so clear by using multiple names for the substances described, and for being so thorough and inclusive.

[rapidoo15]

War this is an amazing thread, the most informative one on this forum in re guards to gyno and pct.

[xeroxy]

That is one excellent thread.
I know i'm new here so i do hope you don't mind me pointing out however that letro does indeed reduce estrogen by up to 98% but this in females, the figures for males quoted in the journal of endocrinology are anywhere between 46% and 68%.

[liftin 25]

Alright guys, first off to repeate everyone else, yea this is a great thread with some really good info. I was hoping someone could help me clear a few things up. First, which will effect your on cycle gains more: serm (nolva) or AI (armidex), and why. Second anyone actually know why serms arnt a good choice for 19-nor groups. Next, just wanted to make sure that ive got it all in my head streight, AI's run at a moderate dose are the best choice starting off to try to control general estrogen related symptoms, then if gyno appears, switch to nolva for the rest of the cycle or at least until symptoms reside and then go back to the AI's possibly at a higher dose than before. I would really appreciate some clarification. thanks

[xeroxy]

To answer your first question, an AI can effect gains if taken in doses high enough to bring estrogen down to low, this is especially indicative of steroids like dbol where much of it's anabolic activity is mediated by estrogen.
Nolva taken on cycle will not effect gains. It has the ability to lower igf but this by far outweighed by the resultant increase in igf that is realised from taking AAS.
19 nors can cause progestegenic gyno, nolva upregulates the Pgr so it's not something you should be using with 19nors.
Take a low dose AI on cycle, if gyno still appears then you have certain choices depending on what cycle you are running.

[Mackn]

Great info!!

[D-strells]

I just have a question regarding nolvadex ..

I have some minor lingering gyno from a superdrol cycle. It has been there for about 6 months and it is no longer tender to the touch but there are small lumps under my nips. I plan on running a nolva pct now to try and get rid of this gyno for good and restore my hpta.

My question is what are the potential side effects from standard doses of nolvadex and mainly what will it do to my sex drive?

I plan on running nolva for 5 to 6 weeks at 20mg. 40 ed for the first week

[Tlee8769]

Great read best advice i have read thus far thx for the great information. It doesnt state anything like my question of how much aromasin or nolvadex you should take during your cycle as a preventative measure if its stated somewhere i missed it?

[velocity90]

I see a ton of recommendations for chlomid, Nolva for Pct but after hours of research I think my best bet is going to be aromasin , nolvadex for my PCT and moderate doses while on cycle as well.

Do any of you experienced guys see a problem with this?

Any help would be appreciated.

[Armykid93]

Wow great thread

[Badbone]

Thanks for the post. I hav been having a minor problem with gyno starting with my nipples!. Also started to feel extremely emotional kinda like a girl. "Not positive if its related" anyways i switched from the clomid to Tamoxifen and started reversing. All in all i believe my clomid was bunk and just needed a little quality. Tamox always seemed to work best for me.

[Badbone]

They say clomiphene works a little better for the restoration of hpta. Your nolvadex will do the trick. 40mg a day the first week and continue with reccomended 20 mg a day? Thats a solid idea to be safe. My sex drive seems to go on and off while on pct. I know its on when the nolvadex is kicking in without pct you will have NO sex drive. Your T levels will be so low as your most likely bombarded with estragen aromatizing.

[Badbone]

Nolvadex isnt an AI but you can take it while on a cycle to prevent gyno. Works great i know many who have also done this. Nolv is a SARM and is usually used for pct but durring a cycle, to stay in the clear use 20mg per day. Worked great for me multiple times.

[mikemegame]

clarify please from what i read it looks like high estrogen AND low estrogen inhibit your sex drive/ libido,and muscle mass
I have read this elsewhere and also in your post:
Estrogen Related Side Effect Prone (i say estrogen related side effect, because there are more side effects than just gyno such as, lethargy, suppressed gains, suppressed sex drive, acne, bloating etc..).

Beware that lowering estrogen with strong AI's can have a negative effect on cholesterol levels and low estrogen levels can lead to sore joints, cause your losing estrogens anti-inflammitory effect. Can also have a negative impact on your libido. Estrogen has an important role in mass building and joint health, as noted below where "estrogen" is explained.

are the normal blood levels for estradiol in men accepted by the AMA to be referenced to?.... or should we accept a higher level of estradiol when on cycle because of the balance the body naturally wishes to attain and if this is the case then what blood level would be acceptable testosterone /estradiol % ??

if high estrogen is the feedback inhibition to the pituitary then why would a low estrogen level cause loss of libido / sex drive?
i see it does not mention erectile function, is erectile function included in the side effect of lost libido or are they seperate issues?
could it be estrogen is needed for desire but not for erection?
From this list can we infer that the sole hormone responsible for erectile function is testosterone in its natural form and that restoring HPTA in regard to erectile dysfunction solely depends on the LH induced natural testosterone production. I see that you mention some individuals who desensitize their testicles to LH so much its irreversible, do these individuals have erectile dysfunction and is their erectile dysfunction restored with exogenous testosterone?
Finally I read the following:
In just 7 days of Clomid use at 100mgs ED is enough to raise LH and FSH by as much as 50%. You will need nolva also, as the point of these serms is to block estrogen receptors in the HPTA to fool it, and to tell the pituitary to start producing it's own LH and FSH. (Will find the supporting study asap.)
Did you find the supporting studies? Can nolvadex act as a estrogen receptor agonist in skeletal muscle. I have not heard of estrogen receptors in penile tissue... are there do u know of?? it would be interesting if nolvadex also acted on penile tissue inducer/inhibitor.
It is strange that tren being so highly androgenic which would imply it would be a rather good promoter of erectile function, yet ironically suppresses the hell out of it through inhibition of natural weaker endogenous androgen (testosterone), aside from its increasing the prolactins and progestins.
As you can tell by my line of questions I am concearned about this as I had E.D. for almost a year after using tren and now I shut myself down again using 200mg primobolan a week only, I am getting old 42yo now and when i was young this was never an issue but such a low dose shut me down and I not only have E.D. but I also have no sexual thoughts/desire. maybe my gear was bogus (

[elendil]

ty for the info

[elendil]

estrogen really sucks on a guy.... gotta get on those AIs asap

[1000_DaysAsTheLion]

so if your running aromasin to prevent, and u get gyno anyway, should you stop the aroma and begin nolva, or continue with both? like there isnt any reason one would hurt the other is there?

[HavocGuns]

Great post. I just had my mind blown. I thought that I had a clue but damn I was wrong. Thanks!!

[Abmaster]

Should u worry about estrogen problems with D-aspartic avid

[tote33]

Awesome post WARMachine, literally the most intelligent and informative PCT post that I have seen. I have been sitting here for over 2hrs reading through it with a fine tooth comb. I'm so glad I read this and was able to take notes before planning my first cycle. Its obvious that the key to a good cycle is proper control over estrogen, thanks again for all the info!

[kylef23]

Great info thanks!

[killawoge]

Best post on pct ive ever read great job machine

[Makhshev]

lots of info in here. great job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!