50 Reasons To Be An Atheist

**Kärnfysikern** · 02-14-2008, 04:35 AM

Originally Posted by rockinred

so your right on to what I am saying... If you believe in something supernatural don't look to science to explain it.. that is all my point...

That we agree 100%

if religion leaves science alone I would be a happy happy man.

Originally Posted by rockinred

if you chose to believe in evolution then you are a follower of a different religion too. so you fall into do i follow Jesus, Buddha, Mormons, or Darwin, etc.... it is all explaining the origin of human race... so I could pipe a bunch of monkey ancestor jokes and fit right in to this thread and no one would get offended... right?

But this is a fallacy. No "belife" or "faith" is required to accept a scientific theory. I dont have to "belive" in special relativity, I just go down and fire up a particle accelerator and verify it. I dont have to belive in newtons gravitational law, I just drop a rock and messure the acceleration. Its just accepting facts and that is the whole point of the scientific method.

Evolution can offcourse not be verified experimentaly like that. But the fossil records and plenty of observations in nature confirm that evolution is a valid theory and that renders belife unnessecary and unwanted.

**rockinred** · 02-14-2008, 07:44 AM

Originally Posted by Kärnfysikern

That we agree 100%

if religion leaves science alone I would be a happy happy man.

But this is a fallacy. No "belife" or "faith" is required to accept a scientific theory. I dont have to "belive" in special relativity, I just go down and fire up a particle accelerator and verify it. I dont have to belive in newtons gravitational law, I just drop a rock and messure the acceleration. Its just accepting facts and that is the whole point of the scientific method.

Evolution can offcourse not be verified experimentaly like that. But the fossil records and plenty of observations in nature confirm that evolution is a valid theory and that renders belife unnessecary and unwanted.

Ok....a big BUT, the "missing link" has never been found so you have "Faith" that it exists just unfound. Never has the theory of evolution proved that a bird becomes a different species, etc...or a human changed from an ape as alleged. the ideas were very radical and i believe there is a VERY VERY HUGE difference between adapting and evolving. The evolving is the part that leaves the scientific explanation of the origin unproven and therefore falls into a "religious" belief.

I like science and i think i read a few of your post a while back where you are pursuing a higher education in the biology field??....that is a commendable thing, but I would say don't be so quick to believe everything you are taught is fact either. I have seen too many changes on suppose "scientific facts" and so called "experts".. i am not very old and when I was younger we wer approaching an ice age again... taught as fact in textbooks at school. Now we are in a global meltdown...all at one point taught as widely accepted "scientific fact". when I worked on my graduate degree I found that the more you learn the more everything is pretty much theorized.

**MASTER** · 02-14-2008, 07:55 AM

If god exists (which i dont believe he does) then hes nothing more than a spoilt child playing a dictator. In the bible it says he kills people who dont do what he says (noahs arc, jerusalem destroyed, whats to come in revelations etc). This and the fact he expects to be worshipped surely makes him an easily unlikeable chappie. Seriously how arrogant must you be to create a load of beings just so you can make them worship you and try to scare them into doing it . If you don't do what I say, don't believe in me, don't worship me, then when judgment comes, you will either (depending on which school of christianity) go to hell, go to purgatory or you will be dead to the ground. How twisted is that?

Truly good people will be punished because they don't fit the bill, whereas people who arent as good will be saved. There are even some classic stories of people that did do what god said, and yet still got punished, they had to prove that God was more important to them than anything else (losing everything they owned, their families, having to sacrifice their own kids etc). Even if god did exist, and I knew it, I would still not worship him or anything, because if simply being good person, isn't good enough for god, then god isn't good enough to be in the company of a good person. He pretends to be all good and everything and yet according to the bible has killed far more people than satan has up till now, so who is really the bad guy? The guy who claims to be all sweetness and yet kills everyone, or the guy, that says he is evil and is evil, at least satan is honest!

What makes me laugh the most is christians that think asking for forgiveness for all the bad things they have done gets them off and if they they do bad things again in the future then they can ask fo forgiveness again. No need to make up for the bad things (karma) just ask for forgiveness and its all good. Buddhist, hindus, taoists will tell you same goal different path about the other religions, but not christianity, other religions are made up by satan, follow them at your peril.

Wow serious rant lol. I think ill take my chances and continue to not believe in god, try and be a good person and see what happens.

**rockinred** · 02-14-2008, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by sooners04

Your assuming Im an athiest which is incorrect, please do not put that label on me. Ill label myself thanks. What do you mean by original answers, if you believe in the Holy Bible then your a follower even more than I am, so your being hypocritical. I do not have any answers, I have a lot of questions and so far I can't find answers to ANY of them. If you have some let me know, and Im serious about that. Religion is defined as a set of beliefs about something or practicing a set of beliefs. I really don't believe anything this thread has stated about any religions or darwin. So I guess I have no religion.

Sooners, sorry about that I wasn't necessarily referring to you. when I said original answers, i meant, a lot of people around say they don't believe in this or that, they only believe in this...(which is already something they were taught somewhere in life and it was not an original explanation).

Yes, I am a follower and I don't think it is a bad thing... I was just trying to point out that all of us are to one extent. I wouldn't say I am a blind follower of a specific church though... I actually read up on and studied the three main beliefs on earth.... almost all religions are variations of these three that involve expansion or reformation. Anyhow, you have questions, I do too and it is a life long journey. many have been answered and many have not. Just cause I said I read, I don't want to come on here saying that i have all the answers, but what I do have is answers to my questions... I know a lot of people that go on their daily life and never ask one question about anything deep and they don't want to...I was never like that, I had to ask why, what, and understand everything... unfortunately, it is not that simple or actually black and white as a lot of churches or radicalist make it out to be. I think my deep questions started when I was in the Army oversees and seeing different lifestyles...then I went on my journey from there.

You said you haven't found answers.... you can pm me with a few Q's, I am not affiliated with any church and don't have a hidden agenda... maybe I can help you get pointed in the right direction of what you are looking for. maybe not, but you don't sound afraid, you just don't want BS like "listen to me or burn forever" type stuff...that is where I started too. One thing I never understood and I am not bad mouthing anything, but many go to a church and never read one lick out the bible. Are they illeterate? Lazy? Read it for yourself and see what it really says without being influenced by someone elses interpretation or spin. that is a starting point.

What got me started on this thread is that the original part of this topic was humor, the it kind of made it out to be believe in science or God... you can't be inbetween type of thing... i just wanted to point out that was not necessarily true. that's it.

**rockinred** · 02-14-2008, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by MastaAce

If god exists (which i dont believe he does) then hes nothing more than a spoilt child playing a dictator. In the bible it says he kills people who dont do what he says (noahs arc, jerusalem destroyed, whats to come in revelations etc). This and the fact he expects to be worshipped surely makes him an easily unlikeable chappie. Seriously how arrogant must you be to create a load of beings just so you can make them worship you and try to scare them into doing it . If you don't do what I say, don't believe in me, don't worship me, then when judgment comes, you will either (depending on which school of christianity) go to hell, go to purgatory or you will be dead to the ground. How twisted is that?

Truly good people will be punished because they don't fit the bill, whereas people who arent as good will be saved. There are even some classic stories of people that did do what god said, and yet still got punished, they had to prove that God was more important to them than anything else (losing everything they owned, their families, having to sacrifice their own kids etc). Even if god did exist, and I knew it, I would still not worship him or anything, because if simply being good person, isn't good enough for god, then god isn't good enough to be in the company of a good person. He pretends to be all good and everything and yet according to the bible has killed far more people than satan has up till now, so who is really the bad guy? The guy who claims to be all sweetness and yet kills everyone, or the guy, that says he is evil and is evil, at least satan is honest!

What makes me laugh the most is christians that think asking for forgiveness for all the bad things they have done gets them off and if they they do bad things again in the future then they can ask fo forgiveness again. No need to make up for the bad things (karma) just ask for forgiveness and its all good. Buddhist, hindus, taoists will tell you same goal different path about the other religions, but not christianity, other religions are made up by satan, follow them at your peril.

Wow serious rant lol. I think ill take my chances and continue to not believe in god, try and be a good person and see what happens.

A lot of what your saying about how you understand god to be is from people telling you that is the way he is. Trying to sum up all those things in a few senteces is pretty difficult. There is a lot more to all those stories then picking out the points that don't sound good and focusing on those. I don't think that mainstream modern christian belief that you stated on top is true. who knows how we will be judged? All I understand from reading is that the judgement is true... so if you see the obvious " Truly good people will be punished because they don't fit the bill, whereas people who arent as good will be saved" then i have to say that the people who say this actually made themself out to be god and think they have it all figured out.. which is wrong.. no one even knows these things.. it is all speculation.

One thing I want to ask you... You said good and bad people... where is your premise for those terms? who says what is good and bad? your morals? where do they come from? is it culture? if you were rasied in the woods with your family by yourself and suddenly decided to kill your parents do you think that would be wrong? do you think you would feel bad inside? if so why?

**Kärnfysikern** · 02-14-2008, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by rockinred

Ok....a big BUT, the "missing link" has never been found so you have "Faith" that it exists just unfound. Never has the theory of evolution proved that a bird becomes a different species, etc...or a human changed from an ape as alleged. the ideas were very radical and i believe there is a VERY VERY HUGE difference between adapting and evolving. The evolving is the part that leaves the scientific explanation of the origin unproven and therefore falls into a "religious" belief.

I guess that depends on what you define as proof? Evolutionary biologist seems fully satisfied with the fossil record and I have no reason to doubt them since its not my field of expertise. I know that the fossil record leading from ape to man is quite convicing. Macroevolution has also been acctualy observed.

I dont se it as a flaw that evolutionary theory leaves out the origin of life. Its entire goal is to explain the origin of spieces, not the origin of life. Abiogenesis is the study of the origin of life, but considering technology has progess so far that we are at the verge of creating artificial life by putting togheter DNA strings from basic chemical building blocks I have no doubt that nature can do it aswell. Everything we humans can do through technology nature has already done hundrads of millions of years before us.

Originally Posted by rockinred

I like science and i think i read a few of your post a while back where you are pursuing a higher education in the biology field??....that is a commendable thing, but I would say don't be so quick to believe everything you are taught is fact either. I have seen too many changes on suppose "scientific facts" and so called "experts".. i am not very old and when I was younger we wer approaching an ice age again... taught as fact in textbooks at school. Now we are in a global meltdown...all at one point taught as widely accepted "scientific fact". when I worked on my graduate degree I found that the more you learn the more everything is pretty much theorized.

Yupp Im finishing my masters thesis now but in physics(reactor physics) not in biology. To me something is a fact when it has been verified experimentaly or through observation. There are offcourse plenty of examples when scientist has gone out in public with to little facts to back it up, like new ice age ect. But that is prone to happen with young science fields like climate science. Science isnt infallible, but the scientific method makes sure that misstake gets discovered sooner or leter.

My field is off course one where its easy to check if theories fit nature, that is the beauty of physics. In other fields like biology, medicin, climate science ect its alot harder to verify or falsify theories since it involves such incrediby complex systems with loads of important parameters that all needs to be modelled in a good way. The mechanisms driving evolution however seems to be very well understood and verified. talk origins does a wonderfull job of putting forward the science behind evolution and debuking creationist claims http://www.talkorigins.org/

The thing that realy convinces me of evolution is simply that it is as accepted by biologist as relativity is by physicists. No one has so far been able to falsify evolutionary theory and that is why we still have it around. Science works by falsification.

**Kärnfysikern** · 02-14-2008, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by rockinred

What got me started on this thread is that the original part of this topic was humor, the it kind of made it out to be believe in science or God... you can't be inbetween type of thing... i just wanted to point out that was not necessarily true. that's it.

That is another thing I completely agree with. Science doesnt even make any statement conserning the existance of a god. But like Laplace said to Napoleon, god is a unnessecary hypothesis. We can explain things without invoking god.

But nothing can prove there isnt a god.

**rockinred** · 02-14-2008, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by Kärnfysikern

No one has so far been able to falsify evolutionary theory and that is why we still have it around. Science works by falsification.

ok, i don't want say too much space on kales thread here... I already rambled on a lot... science does work by falsification like you said, but with that being said... you can't conclude something and then say disprove this or it is fact. That is not fair or open minded either.

The biggest thing for me in the fossil record is that how many years would you say that it took for a monkey to become a man? million? more? less? ok, so how many fossil records of original monkey? why would the original be around and not the evolutionary process in between (specially if took millions of years) either be found or still occurring in between? dinosaurs existed before man right? if this is the case why do we find fossil records of this and none of the changes needed to support the theory of the evolution of species. by survival of the fittest the monkeys or apes would be gone and replaced by man with a long history of fossils and records. I just don't agree with that and think the theory it is really flawed for many of the species... it is accepted by many, but not by all.

**rockinred** · 02-14-2008, 10:49 AM

Oh btw, congratulations on your masters...kudos on that... good job! Not easy for sure. I did business..MBA.

**kfrost06** · 02-14-2008, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by Kärnfysikern

No Einstein most definitely did not prove Newton was wrong, remember you are talking to a physicists now

What Einstein did was to show that Newtons laws was a low energy/low mass approximation of special relativity. But in the low energy and low mass limit newtons laws are accurate to the nth decimal and thats why Newtons mechanics are still used today for just about every application. There is no conflict betwen special relativity and newton mechanics when building building, shooting pool or doing something else ordinary.

That proves my point, newtons theories was so firmly tested by experiement that every scientists knew they are correct. All that einstein did was add details in domains where newton had not been tested yet. Its the same with all major theories, all physicists know that say the standard model of particle physics isnt the end of the story, einsteins relativity theories isnt either the final theories. But we know they are accurate for all but the most extrem situations. When we piece the final puzzle togheter then all of todays theories will fall out as approximations of the "theory of everything"

Its the same with evolution, evolution is so firmly confirmed that it wont be replaced. But details will be added when new discoveries are made.

Are you really a physicist? I got my undergrad in physics, it was my favorite subject, loved modern physics, classical was a bit boring(no offense Newton). My point in the post is because something is except now as fact does not necessarily make it so. What we know(or think we know) now will likely be laughed at years from now. I would dispell a belief in God because of evolution, there is a lot more to be learned and it's important to keep an open mind.

As for physics yes Newtons laws work under low speeds but the laws of physics do not change(peroid) under any conditions or anywhere in the universe. Many of Einstiens theories have been tested and validated thanks to particle accelerators. The scientist now a days are vey reluctant to ever call anything a law again because they recgonize the fact that we have only seen the tip of the iceberg in our quest for knowledge. Simply saying there is no proof of a God means He doesn't exist is a poor aurguemnt. When Newton said gravity acts on all matter equally regardless of mass he was luaghed at and could not prove it when he was asked to drop a feather and a hammer at the same time to see if they fall at the same rate. Did that mean his theory was untrue? no of course not and the experiemnt was done centuries latter and you know the results. Saying someone needs to show you evidence of a God or higher power and lack there of does raise skeptism but certianly does not prove nonexistance.

**Kärnfysikern** · 02-14-2008, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by rockinred

The biggest thing for me in the fossil record is that how many years would you say that it took for a monkey to become a man? million? more? less? ok, so how many fossil records of original monkey? why would the original be around and not the evolutionary process in between (specially if took millions of years) either be found or still occurring in between? dinosaurs existed before man right? if this is the case why do we find fossil records of this and none of the changes needed to support the theory of the evolution of species. by survival of the fittest the monkeys or apes would be gone and replaced by man with a long history of fossils and records. I just don't agree with that and think the theory it is really flawed for many of the species... it is accepted by many, but not by all.

Well according to evolution modern monkies and modern man share a ancestor. So we did not evolve from chimps, they are just another branch on the tree. Also even if evolution branches of in different spieces doesnt nessecarly mean the original one has to die. There are some organism that are truly acient still around on earth.

I think you hold some missconceptions about what evolutionary theory realy do say? I realy realy want you to read through the talk origins site a bit
http://www.talkorigins.org/
It basicly answeres all the questions you raised in your post and its a very interesting site. I am not realy fit to discuss evolution since I am no biologist and know very very little about the subject.

Originally Posted by rockinred

Oh btw, congratulations on your masters...kudos on that... good job! Not easy for sure. I did business..MBA.

Thanks mate, same to you

Originally Posted by kfrost06

Are you really a physicist? I got my undergrad in physics, it was my favorite subject, loved modern physics, classical was a bit boring(no offense Newton). My point in the post is because something is except now as fact does not necessarily make it so. What we know(or think we know) now will likely be laughed at years from now. I would dispell a belief in God because of evolution, there is a lot more to be learned and it's important to keep an open mind.

Sure thing,

I did my bachelor thesis on beta decay and I am now working on my masters thesis on gen-4 nuclear reactors.
Cool to se another physicist on here!

Did you ever get around to lagrange and hamilton mechanics? Newton mechanics is boring as hell got to agree with that, but the lagrange formalism is incredibly elegant! I never thought I could find maths beautifull untill I saw lagrange mechanics in action.

I se your point btw, but we have to separate what is verified beyond a shadow of a doubt and what is still open questions. I am no biologist offcourse, but it certainly sounds from biologist like the basic mechanisms of evolution is proven beyond a doubt, just like newtons mechanics is for low mass and low speed objects.

Originally Posted by kfrost06

As for physics yes Newtons laws work under low speeds but the laws of physics do not change(peroid) under any conditions or anywhere in the universe. Many of Einstiens theories have been tested and validated thanks to particle accelerators. The scientist now a days are vey reluctant to ever call anything a law again because they recgonize the fact that we have only seen the tip of the iceberg in our quest for knowledge.

Ohh I fully agree with that! But a scientists can still say with 100% confidence that if you throw a rock it will obey newton to the nth decimal or that a proton at LHC will obey special relativity perfectly up to several TeV and beyond.

Originally Posted by kfrost06

Simply saying there is no proof of a God means He doesn't exist is a poor aurguemnt. When Newton said gravity acts on all matter equally regardless of mass he was luaghed at and could not prove it when he was asked to drop a feather and a hammer at the same time to see if they fall at the same rate. Did that mean his theory was untrue? no of course not and the experiemnt was done centuries latter and you know the results. Saying someone needs to show you evidence of a God or higher power and lack there of does raise skeptism but certianly does not prove nonexistance.

But with no evidence isnt the most logical conclusion that there is no god? There is no evidence for pink unicorns on the moon and I see no reason to assume they exist. I feel the same about god, I just dont se a reason to assume a god exist and even less to assume that god if it exists happens to be the christian, hindu or egypt gods. But that is just my point of view.

**tadpoleboyy** · 02-14-2008, 04:35 PM

you all should check out the movie zeitgeist. Not so much a movie, but an explanation. http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

**sooners04** · 02-14-2008, 05:37 PM

Ive seen zeitgiest and its just another logical theory behind religion, doesn't mean its true, but to some extent there is proof when the sun rises and sets on what days its the lowest and the names of the constellations relating to things in the bible etc....

Rockinred-in reference to your post where you responded to me. Im on the same page as you not wanting to walk through life just going with the flow. Indeed I am looking deeper and asking questions and sometimes I get looked at like Im an alien for saying certain things or asking certain questions, I think if I understood your post right that is what you are doing also. Im not sold on the total religion part and Im not sold on darwin. There are many things that can go either way, like my daughter being born was something that I watched and could only think that there is some higher power out there making this happen. Then I see people that die for no reason and I wonder why that happened and where was this higher power then.

**Kale** · 02-14-2008, 06:58 PM

I am so impressed that a thread I started with a few jokes has turn into a massive philosophical discussion on the meaning of life and the origin of God

**rockinred** · 02-14-2008, 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by sooners04

Ive seen zeitgiest and its just another logical theory behind religion, doesn't mean its true, but to some extent there is proof when the sun rises and sets on what days its the lowest and the names of the constellations relating to things in the bible etc....

Rockinred-in reference to your post where you responded to me. Im on the same page as you not wanting to walk through life just going with the flow. Indeed I am looking deeper and asking questions and sometimes I get looked at like Im an alien for saying certain things or asking certain questions, I think if I understood your post right that is what you are doing also. Im not sold on the total religion part and Im not sold on darwin. There are many things that can go either way, like my daughter being born was something that I watched and could only think that there is some higher power out there making this happen. Then I see people that die for no reason and I wonder why that happened and where was this higher power then.

Yea, experiencing birth is a realing amazing thing... and on the other side death is very hard to deal with... I posted on Kales other thread about dealing with one of my daughters death... definately hard to deal with and causes a person to ask even deeper questions and a lot of the topics we talked on here are really just surface Q's... I can say dealing with her death actually gave me more meaning and a deeper feeling and understanding of things, but I also could see how it can get you headed in a different direction too... I struggle with many things.. my marriage was tested at that time too.

when i was in Army I saw some pretty crazy stuff and contributed to things I can't necessarily take back, but it helped me grow as an individual and look at things differently too.

Each man has a long story and I am sure that there are a lot of things you will find when you really start looking for more meaning (this I can guarantee you).. so I encourage you to do so because there is nothing better then finding meaning in your life... at least if you ask me... Peace out...

Oh, kale...sorry to post so much in your thread... I just got into a few of the topics and I have a tendency of being long winded

**Dangercat00** · 02-18-2008, 01:47 AM

Originally Posted by MastaAce

If god exists (which i dont believe he does) then hes nothing more than a spoilt child playing a dictator. In the bible it says he kills people who dont do what he says (noahs arc, jerusalem destroyed, whats to come in revelations etc). This and the fact he expects to be worshipped surely makes him an easily unlikeable chappie. Seriously how arrogant must you be to create a load of beings just so you can make them worship you and try to scare them into doing it . If you don't do what I say, don't believe in me, don't worship me, then when judgment comes, you will either (depending on which school of christianity) go to hell, go to purgatory or you will be dead to the ground. How twisted is that?

Truly good people will be punished because they don't fit the bill, whereas people who arent as good will be saved. There are even some classic stories of people that did do what god said, and yet still got punished, they had to prove that God was more important to them than anything else (losing everything they owned, their families, having to sacrifice their own kids etc). Even if god did exist, and I knew it, I would still not worship him or anything, because if simply being good person, isn't good enough for god, then god isn't good enough to be in the company of a good person. He pretends to be all good and everything and yet according to the bible has killed far more people than satan has up till now, so who is really the bad guy? The guy who claims to be all sweetness and yet kills everyone, or the guy, that says he is evil and is evil, at least satan is honest!

What makes me laugh the most is christians that think asking for forgiveness for all the bad things they have done gets them off and if they they do bad things again in the future then they can ask fo forgiveness again. No need to make up for the bad things (karma) just ask for forgiveness and its all good. Buddhist, hindus, taoists will tell you same goal different path about the other religions, but not christianity, other religions are made up by satan, follow them at your peril.

Wow serious rant lol. I think ill take my chances and continue to not believe in god, try and be a good person and see what happens.

You realize that you are criticizing Christians by talking about the Old Testament, right? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

**Dobie-BOY** · 02-18-2008, 02:01 AM

Originally Posted by TheArtist

not picking at you bro... or trying to start anything... because i don't have a dog in this fight...
but are you serious? that's probably the most rediculous thing i've ever heard.
that's like... a strip club where only christians hang out.. lol

It was a joke. BUT now that you mention it I do love women it short catholic school girl outfits. You might be on to somethin here.

**qualityclrk1** · 02-18-2008, 02:04 AM

Originally Posted by kfrost06

Are you really a physicist? I got my undergrad in physics, it was my favorite subject, loved modern physics, classical was a bit boring(no offense Newton). My point in the post is because something is except now as fact does not necessarily make it so. What we know(or think we know) now will likely be laughed at years from now. I would dispell a belief in God because of evolution, there is a lot more to be learned and it's important to keep an open mind.

As for physics yes Newtons laws work under low speeds but the laws of physics do not change(peroid) under any conditions or anywhere in the universe. Many of Einstiens theories have been tested and validated thanks to particle accelerators. The scientist now a days are vey reluctant to ever call anything a law again because they recgonize the fact that we have only seen the tip of the iceberg in our quest for knowledge. Simply saying there is no proof of a God means He doesn't exist is a poor aurguemnt. When Newton said gravity acts on all matter equally regardless of mass he was luaghed at and could not prove it when he was asked to drop a feather and a hammer at the same time to see if they fall at the same rate. Did that mean his theory was untrue? no of course not and the experiemnt was done centuries latter and you know the results. Saying someone needs to show you evidence of a God or higher power and lack there of does raise skeptism but certianly does not prove nonexistance.

AMEN.....now can we give this thread a rest?

**qualityclrk1** · 02-18-2008, 02:06 AM

edited my last post......i'm heeding my own advice and just letting this argument go away....like all ur "factual websites about atheism".....wtf ever

**Dobie-BOY** · 02-18-2008, 02:17 AM

Originally Posted by Kärnfysikern

That we agree 100%

if religion leaves science alone I would be a happy happy man.

But this is a fallacy. No "belife" or "faith" is required to accept a scientific theory. I dont have to "belive" in special relativity, I just go down and fire up a particle accelerator and verify it. I dont have to belive in newtons gravitational law, I just drop a rock and messure the acceleration. Its just accepting facts and that is the whole point of the scientific method.

Evolution can offcourse not be verified experimentaly like that. But the fossil records and plenty of observations in nature confirm that evolution is a valid theory and that renders belife unnessecary and unwanted.

What is the "Cambrian era" (or age?) In breif its is the very short time period where All known life forms fossils begin to appear in our fossil records (except for single celled organisms). What happened to the ape men who were our ancestors? Why arent there ape men walking around today? Im sure you know what the java man is. The third of five figures that make up the supposed progression from ape to man. The java man is supposedly the missing link between man and ape. The man (whos profession was to draw what an animal must have looked like based on bones or fossils found) drew what is known as the java man. He came to his conclusion based on three articles found. A tooth, a femur bone, and a skull cap.
later three men (of the same pofession as the first) were asked to perform the same task as the original artist of java man. The three men came up with three completely different looking animals. One of which did look similar to the java man. So, many scientist simply accepted the java man as factual evidence because it was the one drawing which fit THEIR model of the way evolution occured. What pisses me off is that I was not taught in school that the java man is just one mans opinion. I was made to believe that it was a fact. Just like heckyls (spelling? real tired) embryos. It was and I believe it is still in text books around the world. problem is, its a complete lie.
Goin to sleep. Ill be back for more.
I know I said I was not going to post in this thread anymore, but I cant resist. so, I guess that makes me a liar, which makes me a sinner which all christians are.

**Lfs2shrt2bsml** · 02-18-2008, 05:11 AM

i reckon chuck norris is the creator....

**Kärnfysikern** · 02-18-2008, 05:25 AM

Originally Posted by Dobie-BOY

What is the "Cambrian era" (or age?) In breif its is the very short time period where All known life forms fossils begin to appear in our fossil records (except for single celled organisms). What happened to the ape men who were our ancestors? Why arent there ape men walking around today? Im sure you know what the java man is. The third of five figures that make up the supposed progression from ape to man. The java man is supposedly the missing link between man and ape. The man (whos profession was to draw what an animal must have looked like based on bones or fossils found) drew what is known as the java man. He came to his conclusion based on three articles found. A tooth, a femur bone, and a skull cap.
later three men (of the same pofession as the first) were asked to perform the same task as the original artist of java man. The three men came up with three completely different looking animals. One of which did look similar to the java man. So, many scientist simply accepted the java man as factual evidence because it was the one drawing which fit THEIR model of the way evolution occured. What pisses me off is that I was not taught in school that the java man is just one mans opinion. I was made to believe that it was a fact. Just like heckyls (spelling? real tired) embryos. It was and I believe it is still in text books around the world. problem is, its a complete lie.
Goin to sleep. Ill be back for more.
I know I said I was not going to post in this thread anymore, but I cant resist. so, I guess that makes me a liar, which makes me a sinner which all christians are.

I made a longer post as reply and accidently closed the browser so Il rewrite a quick reply with 4 main points.

1. Im not sure why you bring up the cambrian explosion? If you belife it falsifies evolution then elaborate how?
The explanations I have seen is that before and during the cambrian explosions oxygen levels increased alot and the cambrian started after the snowball earth era when the entire earth was covered in ice. The conditions for life pre cambrian didnt allow complex organism.

2. Why should there be apemen walking around today? Evolution doesnt require that the earlier organism die or live on, it depends on the circumstances.

3. java man is now considered a homo erectus and there are other erectus fossil. You can not claim a entire theory is debunked because of one misstake. Scientists makes misstakes all the time, that is one main driver of scientific progress. There will probably be plenty of corrections made in the human fossil record in the future, I would be extremely suprised otherwise.

4. Like I have said earlier I am no biologist and know hardly nothing about evolution, you should go to talkorigins and read what they write because they ARE biologists and they back upp everything with references to the scientific litterature. If you however choose to belive in creationists over the peer reviewed scientific litterature then we have no comon ground at all to debate on. Then it is more like discussing nuclear power with a greenpeace extremist that doesnt care about science.

**qualityclrk1** · 02-18-2008, 05:45 AM

yeh well.....

**Flagg** · 02-18-2008, 06:54 AM

Science is a lot like evolution, in that it is constantly evolving and finding something new. It's a misconseption that facts are "scientifically proven", everything in science is "scientifically verified", on the basis that advancements in technology/discoveries may change our conception of a previous scientific discovery.

Religion really has nothing to back up it's validation for existence. Not only that, all the other religions are intolerant of each other and maintane THEY are the real religion and the rest are false. So if that's the case, there's going to be a lot of dissapointed catholics or muslims in th next life.

**Dobie-BOY** · 02-24-2008, 07:23 AM

There is TONS Of SCIENTIFIC information and studies that suggests that macro-evolution did not occure and TONS of information that supports creationism. I was taught all through school about evolution. I dont need to read any more about it. How much have you read supporting creationism? Shouldnt you hear both arguement before you draw a conclusion?

**Kärnfysikern** · 02-24-2008, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by Dobie-BOY

There is TONS Of SCIENTIFIC information and studies that suggests that macro-evolution did not occure and TONS of information that supports creationism. I was taught all through school about evolution. I dont need to read any more about it. How much have you read supporting creationism? Shouldnt you hear both arguement before you draw a conclusion?

Well like I said last time, this is like debating nuclear energy with a green fanatic. You are obviously not interested in solid science, if you where you would be all over talkorigins and trying to clear up your obvious misconceptions about evolution.

There ISNT tons of evidence against macroevolution, the only thing that counts in the scientific community is evidence presented in peer reviewed scientific journals. You can go ahead and try to find evidence against macroevolution in those journals if you want.

About hearing both arguments, its simply unnessecary. There are plenty of personal "theories" claiming einstein was wrong ect, just look at http://www.crank.net/ .
Do I have to hear all that before I can conclude that relativity is correct? Offcourse not! Science isnt a political debate. Either the theory in question describes natures behavior or it doesnt, what other hypothesis has to say is irrelevant.

**Ronnie Rowland** · 02-24-2008, 12:23 PM

I am of the opinion that the theory of evolution is bogus. We did not evolve from monkeys because monkeys are still here!

I do believe in Jesus Christ. I can't prove he was God in the flesh but I believe it none-the-less. Being saved by grace through faith is what it's all about. I try to love God and my neighbor. In a nutshell-this is what I believe ful-fills what we as believers should be doing. It's not a matter of don't do this or you won't go to Heaven. Nonsense like that has hurt true Christianity. True Christians should judge no one!!!! Various demoninational preachers are to blame here IMO...People can be such hypocrites sometimes!!!

Everyone needs to be accepted whether they want to admit it or not. I am not a big fan of organized religion. I have little use for teachings based on laws, creeds and opinions of man. I believe in consistency..

I do not understand everything so I live by faith..I call it spirituality not religion. I've studied various religions and this is my two cents...

**xlxBigSexyxlx** · 02-24-2008, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by Ronnie Rowland

I am of the opinion that the theory of evolution is bogus. We did not evolve from monkeys because monkeys are still here!

I won't go on to ridicule this question although, in my humble opinion, it either shows a lack of understanding of the whole idea of evolution, or is being asked by someone looking to disprove evolution. And anyway, you can find the answer in a search engine so I shouldn't be answering it at all!

There are two ways of answering this question.
1. Shrug it off by stating Evolution is still a 'work-in-progress' and we don't really know (that answered that one!) or
2. To talk a little about evolution and try to answer by clearing up some common misconceptions.

I think the real question here is 'If something evolves, does the original which it evolves from die out' The answer to this is no.
The main thing here is that evolution does not mean the original dies out. The original only dies out if the conditions change enough for it to be unable to survive. Accompanying questions could be 'why are there no Neanderthal men still in existence but there are monkeys?' No Neanderthal men are in existence because the more evolved less - Neanderthal's killed all the more Neanderthal, less evolved's - hence their livable conditions expired. The rate of evolution dependant on conditions is also important to think about. Evolution is dependent on time as well. Vegetarian Monkeys and Apes didn't need to kill each other or anything else so they stayed placid and un evolved. The specific type of ape we evolved from was carnivorous and needed to evolve quickly to eat and keep up with the rest of its carnivorous friends or enemies!

I guess someone asking this question may be questioning evolution itself. Look around you. Evolution certainly exists - we see it everywhere. We know cells mutate and change - look at cancers. As animals, plants and us humans are all made of cells, we are all capable of mutating and changing our forms from one generation to the next. Over time, conditions and through necessity, our actions and our bodies will evolve to match the world around us. Note for example the increase in incidence's of short sightedness. This is a genetic defect and will gradually, from generation to generation become the predominant factor. As a result of corrective vision instruments, shortsighted people will not die out and will continue reproducing. Until we can alter the gene, more and more people will be born shortsighted.

I have drifted slightly from the question, so I'll summarise. Monkeys still exist because they had no enemies and no need to evolve, they therefore evolved slower than their apelike carnivorous counterparts - which no longer exist.

Another way to look at it is simply that humans followed a different evolutionary path from monkeys. We didn't evolve from monkeys - monkeys and humans evolved from the same ape like animal. We have since taken different paths, and both co-exist. There! 3 answers!!

http://www.needananswer.co.uk/questions/monkeys.html

**borntobeblue** · 02-24-2008, 02:13 PM

what the fook is an agnostic?

**xlxBigSexyxlx** · 02-24-2008, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by borntobeblue

what the fook is an agnostic?

http://arts.cuhk.edu.hk/humftp/E-tex...l/agnostic.htm

**borntobeblue** · 02-24-2008, 02:20 PM

ok read that thanx. i believe if god does exist then he is 1 sick b4stard, does that mean im an agnostic?

**Lexed** · 02-24-2008, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by borntobeblue

ok read that thanx. i believe if god does exist then he is 1 sick b4stard, does that mean im an agnostic?

if you questions his existence then most likely are but im not gonna tell you what you are.... you have to decide for yourself. I am agnostic

**borntobeblue** · 02-24-2008, 02:58 PM

i find it difficult to believe in something i cant see, like ghosts, ufos and god i dont think its impossible that ghosts or ufo`s exist, but god? come on your have a fookin laugh arnt ya? have you read the bible?, its like reading a comic, total fantasy. well thats my opinion. i believe in myself and my family coz i know they exist

**Lexed** · 02-24-2008, 03:06 PM

ya just like if you where in ancient greek times and told them that there crazy in believing in there god they would laugh at you and call you a crazy

**borntobeblue** · 02-24-2008, 03:11 PM

hey never mind ancient greek times the world is full of blinkered brainwashed fanatics now in these times, remember 9/11?

**Ronnie Rowland** · 02-24-2008, 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by borntobeblue

hey never mind ancient greek times the world is full of blinkered brainwashed fanatics now in these times, remember 9/11?

Most defintely agree here! Religious fanatics are just plain weird in my book..It was the religious crowd that crucified Christ and went around judging everybody else with their holier than thou attitudes.Hypocrite is the word I am searching for here..

Now what about all these testimonials by people who have had a near death experience??

**Kärnfysikern** · 02-24-2008, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by Ronnie Rowland

Now what about all these testimonials by people who have had a near death experience??

Why assume its anything else than brain chemistry playing some tricks? If I remember right studies have shown that near death experiences change with different culturs, so a near death experience for someone in india is different from someone in america. Either there are different heavens or its just brain chemistry...

**borntobeblue** · 02-24-2008, 05:19 PM

ive read several books on NDE`s and its funny how peeps who die and are revived were always greeted by dead family members never by god himself, is he too important and so far up his own arse that he cant do it himself, oh no i know why coz its he dosent exist

**Ronnie Rowland** · 02-24-2008, 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by borntobeblue

ive read several books on NDE`s and its funny how peeps who die and are revived were always greeted by dead family members never by god himself, is he too important and so far up his own arse that he cant do it himself, oh no i know why coz its he dosent exist

You can't prove God does not exist..That much is for sure..

The near death experiences are very strange indeed..I've read we will be known as we are known here on earth..Could that be a sign? Who knows for sure but what good is life on earth if there is nothing to look forward to after death? I am of the opinion that when we die there will still be hobbies for us to do like bodybuilding, golf, etc.

**rockinred** · 02-24-2008, 07:47 PM

ok I told myself I would not post on this one anymore.... enough was said... but i ask anyone to top this... one thing for sure is we all die regardless of what we believe or not, right?? well if I say I die with a hope of being ressurrected (rise up from the dead)... then what did I lose? We both die right? If I am wrong then I am wrong and we are in the same boat... now the biggie here is what if I am not wrong? you have no hope... does that matter if you have a chance to live again? well, this may be where we all differ, but it does matter to me. now we can theorize on this all day, but it boils down to that.

It also starts with a simple fact of question as to how the begining was... I am here and you are here. so break it all the way down and it is either we were created or not there is no inbetween on this question.... then it goes from there on everything else... that question is the absolute truth though.. one or the other happened and that is a fact that everyone has to comes to terms with... or not.