Is there a God?

[WOLFCRAFT]

so wolf.....if it made you feel good you would kill people?

No.
And if we're talking about murder, I think Christianity's got WAAAAAAYYYYYY more to answer for than Satanism.

I should probably clarify at this point too that I don't consider myself a Satanist.

[rhino1]

No, they learn by trial and error, and by habit.

If every time you ring a bell and your dog comes to eat food, your dog will learn by habit that whenever a bell is rung, it is time to eat. But if you suddenly start ringing the bell but take away the food, it will slowly realise by habit that ringing the bell does not mean food is present, and won't bother going.

Animals can NOT rationalise. Their behaviour is purely based on habit, trial and error, and by instinct.

YOU ARE SOOO RIGHT....

after jumping off the cliff for the 3rd time....my dog finally realized that it hurts to fall 300 ft...

[WOLFCRAFT]

The fact you don't know should ring alarm bells in regards to your line of argument. Not flaming you bro, just pointing out a major flaw.

Well just because I don't know doesn't mean I'm going to believe an absolutely ludicrous explanation either. Even if it is the popular one.

[rhino1]

No.
And if we're talking about murder, I think Christianity's got WAAAAAAYYYYYY more to answer for than Satanism.

I should probably clarify at this point too that I don't consider myself a Satanist.

more blood has been shed in the name of christ(or god) than for any otherr reason...


didn't mean to call you satanist...my bad

[rhino1]

is not rationalization a learnd skill....aquired by trial and error? you are basically saying that you never learned to rationalize...you just knew how to do it....RIGHT?

[WOLFCRAFT]

Haha, you didn't dude, no sweat.

I think man is without doubt just another animal.
What makes us superior? Our ability to destroy everything in our path?
I think humans are a plague, and the worst thing to ever happen to this planet.
But that's little ol' negative nancy me.

[GT2]

is not rationalization a learnd skill....aquired by trial and error?

No. It is a trait humans are endowed with to separate them from the animals.

And your dog has learnt from previous experiences (maybe not a CLIFF), that going over that barrier is wrong.

[rhino1]

No. It is a trait humans are endowed with to separate them from the animals.

And your dog has learnt from previous experiences (maybe not a CLIFF), that going over that barrier is wrong.

funny because i see my dog think rationally more than irrationally

HIS NAME IS BOLT!

[rhino1]

no. It is a trait humans are endowed with to separate them from the animals.

And your dog has learnt from previous experiences (maybe not a cliff), that going over that barrier is wrong.

p r o v e i t

[Ernst]

^^ Dolphins and primates have demonstrated intelligence beyond this. For ****s sake, Koko the gorilla can even tell you what she thinks. She has made up words to describe something that was new to her.

[GT2]

p r o v e i t

Mate, remember, this is all about personal belief. It's called FAITH. You either have it or you don't. Not everyone agrees on the same things, that is what makes us individuals, I am simply sharing my point of view in an objective manner.

I am not going to try and prove anything, because it all goes down to personal belief. If you're a non-believer now, and I prove you wrong, you will continue to be a non-believer because when someone is proved wrong, they still don't want to admit defeat, or will make up some other excuse. So in regards to the logical/rational theory, it ends here on my behalf

[rhino1]

Mate, remember, this is all about personal belief. It's called FAITH. You either have it or you don't. Not everyone agrees on the same things, that is what makes us individuals, I am simply sharing my point of view in an objective manner.

I am not going to try and prove anything, because it all goes down to personal belief. If you're a non-believer now, and I prove you wrong, you will continue to be a non-believer because when someone is proved wrong, they still don't want to admit defeat, or will make up some other excuse. So in regards to the logical/rational theory, it ends here on my behalf

as you recall....in previous post...i stated i was playing devil's advocate...simply to evoke an interesting perspective...

YOu are right...I have faith...as do you...

[WOLFCRAFT]

We're kind of past this, but here's a better summary of what I was trying to explain.

"LaVeyan Satanism

Main article: LaVeyan Satanism

LaVeyan Satanists are technically Atheists and Agnostics and believe that Satan is a metaphor that represents the natural urges of mankind.[3] The term LaVeyan Satanist, or symbolic Satanist, is used by other Satanists to refer to supporters of the writings of Church of Satan founder Anton Szandor LaVey and successors such as Peter H. Gilmore.[4] Use of the word Satanism in this context, according to religioustolerance.org, refers to a "small religious group that is unrelated to any other faith, and whose members feel free to satisfy their urges responsibly, exhibit kindness to their friends, and attack their enemies."

[rhino1]

saw that...quite interesting...

[Gears]

Being agnotsic is the most logical standpoint imo.

[rhino1]

Being agnotsic is the most logical standpoint imo.

if you have a mind that functions primarily in a logical manner as apposed to a faith based manner

[DSM4Life]

Nope. When its time to go its lights out !

[rockinred]

Yes, I believe... I have discussed this topic many times on this forum, so I will leave it at that...

btw wolfcraft, Satan is an actual name for the devil or a spirit person if you will. It means the opposor of God, or the cheif adversary of God. Look up the original term, it does not signify agnostic belief.

Jesus said of him "that one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him" (joh 8:44' 1jo 3:8).

the origin of the term Satan applies attributes to a person not a representation or abstract principle of evil.

the name signifies a deceiver, tempter, and the father of the lie.... are those terms that you would like to identify yourself with? regardless of your belief or understanding of things that are unexplainable or difficult?

[Dukkit]

negative

[CONsis10c]

wake up people there is no god. religion is a scam. just b/c you had experience where something really bad almost happened to, doesn't mean that god saved your life and is watching out for. its called CHANCE. it's mind boggling to me that religion still even exist when there is no evidence that back these theories. In my mind it's a waste of time, space, thoughts and of course all the money that is funded to support these nice a** churches. and the thing that ticks me off most is the people who think your evil or unethical b/c you don't believe. have some faith people just b/c it is socially acceptable by friends and family to believe doesn't mean you have follow in their footsteps.

[rockinred]

wake up people there is no god. religion is a scam. just b/c you had experience where something really bad almost happened to, doesn't mean that god saved your life and is watching out for. its called CHANCE. it's mind boggling to me that religion still even exist when there is no evidence that back these theories. In my mind it's a waste of time, space, thoughts and of course all the money that is funded to support these nice a** churches. and the thing that ticks me off most is the people who think your evil or unethical b/c you don't believe. have some faith people just b/c it is socially acceptable by friends and family to believe doesn't mean you have follow in their footsteps.

whoever said that believing in God was about going to those churches in the western world that you are referring to? A scam? scam you of what? People will think negatively of others no matter what...

[CONsis10c]

whoever said that believing in God was about going to those churches in the western world that you are referring to? A scam? scam you of what? People will think negatively of others no matter what...

how is it not a scam the people that strongly believe are at the churches giving money and volunteering their time. and for what??? the truth.....

[Flagg]

I am a scientist, but I dismissed religion long before I became a scientist.

Do I believe in the type of God that exists in the Bible? No? Koran? No. Judaism, and so on....all no.

I think God is for people afraid of dying personally, or not being able to take responsibilty for their actions or an inability to see random acts of luck and coincidence.

Even from a Scientific point of view, I don't believe there is an Ominpotent "source" that is responsible for the Universe. The Universe is the greatest mystery in existence, not superstition.

[abbot138]

i believe in god but not religion

Thats a good answer...........Truth is I dont have a fvckin clue if there is a "god," but I have to figure something started all of this, even if you believe more in the science side of it and big bang theory, those first molecules had to come from somewhere. Something had to set all of it in motion. Who knows? This question and the is their a "heaven" question are probably the two must subjective questions possible. It always makes for very interesting conversations, as long as everyone realizes that all that can truly be offered in reply are opinions and speculations.

[Psychotron]

No belief in God or an afterlife for me.

For all of you who find it so hard for this world to exist without a God, I find it hard to believe in God just existing.

In all my time I have never witnessed a complex thing existing before a simple one, and the idea of God (infinitly complex entity) existing before something simple (say the big bang) doesn't make any sense to me.

[redz]

There is a greater power out there so I say yes there is a god, however I do not beleive in any religion.

[sooners04]

There is a greater power out there so I say yes there is a god, however I do not beleive in any religion.

Agreed!!!! The bible is just a story of ancient Egypt and Jesus was a man just like you and I and the stories in the bible are severely exaggerated. But when I watch my child start from nothing and come into this world I cannot help to think that there is something out there that is greater than us and science.

[Flagg]

For those saying they dont believe in God but an ultimate power, can I ask why? Is it important to you for there to be an Ultimate Power??

[abbot138]

For those saying they dont believe in God but an ultimate power, can I ask why? Is it important to you for there to be an Ultimate Power??

I cant answer for others but as for myself, I wouldnt say its important. I just feel like its impossible to assume that everything came from nothing. It all had to start somewhere....I do kind of like psychotron's comment tho "In all my time I have never witnessed a complex thing existing before a simple one, and the idea of God (infinitly complex entity) existing before something simple (say the big bang) doesn't make any sense to me."
Kind of a which came first, the chicken or the egg type argument. Although Im not sure I would classify the big bang theory as "simple."

[CONsis10c]

I cant answer for others but as for myself, I wouldnt say its important. I just feel like its impossible to assume that everything came from nothing. It all had to start somewhere....I do kind of like psychotron's comment tho "In all my time I have never witnessed a complex thing existing before a simple one, and the idea of God (infinitly complex entity) existing before something simple (say the big bang) doesn't make any sense to me."
Kind of a which came first, the chicken or the egg type argument. Although Im not sure I would classify the big bang theory as "simple."

Reality is that it's hard to imagine infinity b/c everything in our life has a beginning and end. But to believe in god/religion is one thing and if they're other universes out there with an advanced form of life is another.

[CONsis10c]

Another thing thats crazy is for all we know we could just be an experiment trapped in this universe what if humans really aren't that big? what if another superior form of life created us as a little experiment and reality is everything is 1000x bigger while we are an experiment in some one's lab? or what if there's another world out there thats having the exact same argument we are with slight difference? or our society a hundred years later, thousand years later, four hundred years back? to believe in infinity means there has to be another world out there thats already experienced the same thing we have, which would conclude that there is an advanced form of life out there.

[Gun4hire]

Okay, first off this topic can lead to very heated debate as with discussing politics.
It would take a book to illustrate everything that I would like to point out on this subject. But I will try to condense my thoughts as best to my ability.
First we have to define the meaning of the word God. Of course, like any other word, the word "God" can be given any meaning we like. Some say God is "love", or God is the "universe". If you want to say God is "energy" than you can find God in a lump of coal!
In order to continue a rational debate I will define god as depicted in the books of all three major religions: God is a superhuman, supernatural intelligence that designed the universe and everything in it, including us.
Given this description, I can passionately state there is most definitely no chance of there being such a god. I must also state that I am 100% willing to be proven wrong.

EDIT: this will have to be a multiple post.

[Gun4hire]

Someone mentioned in this thread that "non-believers will always be non-believers even when given proof." There is absolutely no evidence of God given by ANY religion! In fact the exact opposite is true. Believers still believe even after science has time and time again proven the bible wrong. Science, by way of the scientific meathod, is constantly trying to prove itself wrong! That is the difference between science and religion. Religion needs mystery to exist. Science is constantly solving mystery. The bible states that the earth is merely 5000 or so years old. Science has absolute hard evidence to the contrary. The bible states that the SUN revolves around the EARTH. We all know how absurd this idea is today. I can go on and on about how many times science has proven the bible wrong.
Belief in God can be largely attributed to an ignorance in science and *********. Religion gives only two possibilities for our existance. Intelligent Design and Chance.

to be continued........

[Gun4hire]

Anyone who truly understands e v o l u t i o n (was filtered out in my previos post so I added spaces) understands that it is anything but chance! In fact I prefer the term "natural selection" as it defines more clearly the process that takes place. Intelligent Design cannot explain our origin any better than chance. In fact it creates more of a problem than it solves. If everything needs a designer who then created the DESIGNER?!? That is infinite regression! Being that I am the worlds worst typist I will end with this: Any creative intelligence, of sufficient complexity to design anything, comes into existance only as the end product of an extended process of gradual e v o l u t i o n. Creative intelligences, therefore, necesarily arrive late in the universe, and cannot be resposible for designing it. God, in the sense defined, is IMPOSSIBLE!

[bodybuilder1107]

definitely believe in god

[Voland]

there is not.

[THEMEATEATER]

I believe their is something else when we die, not sure its a god tho. I believe in reincarnation, but I dont believe their is a god looking over us and I definately dont believe in the bible or going to church even tho I went when I was younger, or should I say I was made to

[DeputyLoneWolf]

That's one perspective...I'm intrigued to know how you account for the existence of this world, the phenomena that occur, the human body and how it was designed so perfectly...do you believe all these things just HAPPEN? Don't they need someone or something to create and control them?

Good point, I believe in inteligent design. There is way too much evidence to not believe there is a god. If you step back and look at things there is an amazing order and sequence to everything. Believing it just happened is just ludicrus in my opinion. Also wheres any evidence for E vo lution? I would think that after several million years we would have found a missing link by now, or something that died in stages of evolving.

In my line of work I look at evidence. Evidence is used to prove or disprove things all the time.

This video sums up what I'm trying to say:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGy7jRi2-uY

This is two minutes long and very intersting

[WOLFCRAFT]

Yes, I believe... I have discussed this topic many times on this forum, so I will leave it at that...

btw wolfcraft, Satan is an actual name for the devil or a spirit person if you will. It means the opposor of God, or the cheif adversary of God. Look up the original term, it does not signify agnostic belief.

Jesus said of him "that one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him" (joh 8:44' 1jo 3:8).

the origin of the term Satan applies attributes to a person not a representation or abstract principle of evil.

the name signifies a deceiver, tempter, and the father of the lie.... are those terms that you would like to identify yourself with? regardless of your belief or understanding of things that are unexplainable or difficult?

Yes, I know. Satan was God's right hand man, his most beloved angel.
I even said that Satanism uses Satan as a symbol.
I also said that I am not a Satanist, so I'm not identifying myself with anything.

[Flagg]

I cant answer for others but as for myself, I wouldnt say its important. I just feel like its impossible to assume that everything came from nothing. It all had to start somewhere....I do kind of like psychotron's comment tho "In all my time I have never witnessed a complex thing existing before a simple one, and the idea of God (infinitly complex entity) existing before something simple (say the big bang) doesn't make any sense to me."
Kind of a which came first, the chicken or the egg type argument. Although Im not sure I would classify the big bang theory as "simple."

For the chicken and the egg thing, I would say the egg, because most things have to begin...the egg is the beginning.

Now, this is not a copout what im about to say and it will almost have some ironic resonance but I don't think the Universe is for man to understand. And the reason for that is, I believe the Universe is infinity and eternity. It has always been and always will. The problem with understanding this is because the human mind is only finite. It thinks it can understand infinity, and it can't, it really can't. It's all a matter of size. You can say:

Person A: What is beyond our solar system?
Person B: The Galaxy.
Person A: What is beyond The Galaxy?
Person B: More galaxies
Person A: What is beyond the galaxies?
Person B: No one knows

The same can be said if you look inward. As far as we know, the smallest thing known to science is a Quark. But what's a quark made of? Surely that is what is smaller than a quark? Then what is the stuff that makes the quark made of, and so on. You just go smaller and smaller and smaller. It's the same thing as the Universe just being infinitely bigger and bigger. Size defeats the human mind.

The universe is the one thing I believe has never begun and will never end, it has always existed. It's been theorised that the Big Bang is just the one of several that have always been occuring. When the Big Crunch comes, the Big Bang will just occur again and so on. The whole concept of the Universe probably sounds like God (always existing) and if that's what people want to call the Universe, fair enough. I just think that God and Religion was created for people who couldn't fathom what life or the universe was.