Abortion

**Sgt. Hartman** · 11-30-2011, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by xelnaga

I see no contradictions. Using deadly force to prevent a criminal from committing murder is just, correct? You and I may just differ on the definition of abortion doctors as criminals and abortion as murder.

No I don't think killing doctors would have a positive effect on the anti abortion movement.

The problem with this line of thinking is that this criminal who is committing this criminal act is only guilty of crime in your (and many others) eyes. Society and the judicial system have decided that abortion is not a criminal act and a woman's right to choose should be protected. Think what would happen if we all tried to uphold and enforce our own moral laws on everyone else.

I'm against it in most circumstances, rape, incest, mentally ill, etc. and I think partial birth and late term abortions are disgusting and those involved should be prosecuted for murder. But I don't believe there should be laws about first trimester abortions either protecting the right or making it illegal, IMO it's none of the federal govt's business. It is strictly a moral and social issue between the woman and the father. Does our wonderfully efficient, wise and morally just gov't really need or have the right to make these kinds of decisions?

**Kawigirl** · 11-30-2011, 01:59 PM

I think all of you here make valid points....and to each his/her own. I think whatever your choice is as a man is noble and honorable.

My one thought...is how many of you would still think the way you do...if you were the woman and pregnant. In any society....culture and age.

Just a thought.......

**baseline_9** · 11-30-2011, 02:00 PM

Marcus did u post this after seeing that advert on channel 4?

**spywizard** · 11-30-2011, 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by Sgt. Hartman

IMO it's none of the federal govt's business. It is strictly a moral and social issue between the woman and the father. Does our wonderfully efficient, wise and morally just gov't really need or have the right to make these kinds of decisions?

the same argument is used to support actions including death as applied in one of the largest societies today... hands being chopped off for theft, women being raped and stoned to death for allowing themselves to be put in a compromising position...

I'll take the law of the land over the law of "social morality" any day of the week..

**spiketannin** · 11-30-2011, 02:26 PM

wow this thread just reminded me and my ex girl had a abortion at 16 wheew i couldnt imagine if we kept it what would of happened.. back then i didnt think nothin of it jus get an abortion and thats that but know i feel a lil guilty or sumn.

**t-diddz** · 11-30-2011, 02:58 PM

Pro-choice in certain circumstances. But too sticky of a situation to argue.

**scorpion62** · 11-30-2011, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by Kawigirl

I think all of you here make valid points....and to each his/her own. I think whatever your choice is as a man is noble and honorable.

My one thought...is how many of you would still think the way you do...if you were the woman and pregnant. In any society....culture and age.

Just a thought.......

Kawigirl I think your right 100% right its easy to take a point of view when your not the one thats pregnant as I have said to my daughter your the one thats left to bring the kid up when the guy walks which seems to be the way of the young

**DIESELPWR** · 11-30-2011, 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by Hazard

Hard to look at those pics being that my baby is 17 days old.....

I am still prochoice however..... I think if an abortion is done it's best done as soon as possible. They can suck the fertilized egg out if it's caught early enough. If a rape happens.... and it's reported..... they'll know early enough if shes pregnant or not. This should be way before anything has developed past a tiny bean size. If the fetus is going to risk the mothers life then we're talking a later term abortion probably and thats a lot harder to deal with emotionally however in this specific case..... it should be allowed.

~Haz~

I can only imagine what your thinking considering I can't look at them because my girl is 27 weeks pregnant right now..

**DSM4Life** · 11-30-2011, 08:20 PM

I totally agree with it. The last thing we need is more unwanted children in this world. For people who aren't pro-choice, stop telling me what you are and go out and adopt an unwanted baby.

**RussianVodka** · 11-30-2011, 08:25 PM

Originally Posted by JohnnyVegas

^^^^ I am not convinced a fertilized egg is a member of society.

Completely agree with this quote. As long as "egg" can't survive outside woman body it is not a human, sorry if I offend somebody, but it is my opinion.

**ecruz** · 11-30-2011, 08:57 PM

what a can of WORMS.. i feel like a hypocrite, but trust me i understand all the variables as i've taken countless sociology classes. i dont believe in pro choice and honestly dont want to get into a back and forth.. and as for adopting my lil brother was adopted, he was abandoned at the hospital he was 2 wks old when we got him he didnt even have a first name, glad to say he's 22 now and i wouldnt know what life would be like without him.. guys there are plenty of reasons why you should abort but at the end of it all are any of them the best thing to do? life is beautiful and there are so many familys with big hearts that will take a precious child.. the world is far from perfect and bad things happen but when life throws u a curve u swing the best u can and give love a chance to do what it does best and thats live.... again its my opinion, no more no less!!

**ConArmas** · 11-30-2011, 09:51 PM

Rape or incest. That about covers it.
I think it abhorrent that abortion is used by so many as another form of birth control.
I also find it abhorrent that the 'father' has no say in these matters.
Lastly, I give you Lacey/Scott Peterson. She is pregnant and he kills her and HIS unborn son. He is charged with 2 counts of murder. WHY?

**Knockout_Power** · 11-30-2011, 09:57 PM

Dont agree with it. I know people always talk the stories about rape victims or "its my body, I will do whatever with it"... but I see Abortion as another excuse for people to be lazy with birth control.

**Hazard** · 11-30-2011, 10:51 PM

Originally Posted by DIESELPWR

I can only imagine what your thinking considering I can't look at them because my girl is 27 weeks pregnant right now..

Ahhhhh the good ole days......

LMAOO! The birth was beautiful..... my daughter is beautiful..... but man o man is being a parent one hell of a challenge! Lovin it though!

~Haz~

**scorpion62** · 12-01-2011, 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by Hazard

Ahhhhh the good ole days......

LMAOO! The birth was beautiful..... my daughter is beautiful..... but man o man is being a parent one hell of a challenge! Lovin it though!

~Haz~

Agree 100% Haz for the rest of your days,my daughter is 18 now and the fun begins BOYFRIENDS lol

**amcon** · 12-01-2011, 05:39 PM

Originally Posted by Kawigirl

I think all of you here make valid points....and to each his/her own. I think whatever your choice is as a man is noble and honorable.

My one thought...is how many of you would still think the way you do...if you were the woman and pregnant. In any society....culture and age.

Just a thought.......

sorry to challenge you - i will not make an excuse that i am a guy, however it should not be a persons choice... remember we are talking murder - stopping a life

not specifically to you but to ever one:

guys it is a baby, whether or not the baby is convient or not, it is alive - how can you kill a person (if we are alive we are a person - not a fetus). so, my neighbors who are great ppl, just moved in to there house, with three kids come over to day and asked if we could invite them over for dinner they had no money for food (there bird, rabbit, reicently died - to find out from no food, and they gave away one of the two dogs cuz of no money for food) (come to find out they both lost there job this month and had no savings cuz of reciently buying house) back to my point... so not that the kids need food and they cant pay for any food - should they just kill them? save the dog? - My point - now the kids are inconvenient, sadly, so what should they do? kill the fetuses? oops i mean kids?

to kill the kids would be crazy!! we all know that - but where do you draw the line? some ppl can kill the kids? some ppl cant...

is it really a choice?

**JohnnyVegas** · 12-01-2011, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by ecruz

.. and as for adopting my lil brother was adopted, he was abandoned at the hospital he was 2 wks old when we got him he didnt even have a first name, glad to say he's 22 now and i wouldnt know what life would be like without him..

Good stuff man. There is no doubt that all our opinions are shaped by our personally experiences.

Subject change: This place is great. I have rarely seen this subject treated with the civility that I am seeing here.

**amcon** · 12-01-2011, 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by DSM4Life

I totally agree with it. The last thing we need is more unwanted children in this world. For people who aren't pro-choice, stop telling me what you are and go out and adopt an unwanted baby.

Originally Posted by RussianVodka

Completely agree with this quote. As long as "egg" can't survive outside woman body it is not a human, sorry if I offend somebody, but it is my opinion.

DSM - horrible comment, i have less respect for you than i had before(maybe that is me being mean, but i would expect more from a gay man), you are promoting killing babies, that would be like me saying i promote decrimitation of gays because i believe they are unwanted (in my world). being a openly gay man you would think that of all pp,l you would have a little more respect for life and "not being able to make a choice about how you are" meaning your gay not by choice but by birth (and that is whole nother discussion... its enviomemnt not born gay) a baby doesnt have a choice... dead or alive.

no egg can survive out side of the way it is supposta grow!!! grrr think! weather it is a penguin, or a chicken, or a turtle, OR A HUMAN, that doesnt stop it from being the thing it was created to be!

dsm - sorry to so strongly disagree with you but you need to get a world view that is in a direction of life and progression - your ppl need it!

**JohnnyVegas** · 12-01-2011, 06:06 PM

^^^^ Don't make it personal. I enjoy your passion, and understand your experiences, but the common view that crime rates and other things are directly tied to the number of unwanted children in a community is in no way related to the gay community. It is a broad belief.

**xelnaga** · 12-01-2011, 06:09 PM

Originally Posted by amcon

DSM - horrible comment, i have less respect for you than i had before(maybe that is me being mean, but i would expect more from a gay man), you are promoting killing babies, that would be like me saying i promote decrimitation of gays because i believe they are unwanted (in my world). being a openly gay man you would think that of all pp,l you would have a little more respect for life and "not being able to make a choice about how you are" meaning your gay not by choice but by birth (and that is whole nother discussion... its enviomemnt not born gay) a baby doesnt have a choice... dead or alive.

no egg can survive out side of the way it is supposta grow!!! grrr think! weather it is a penguin, or a chicken, or a turtle, OR A HUMAN, that doesnt stop it from being the thing it was created to be!

dsm - sorry to so strongly disagree with you but you need to get a world view that is in a direction of life and progression - your ppl need it!

I fail to see the correlation between someones stance on abortion and their sexuality. Both topics aside its counter productive to make a debate personal. Why should DSM be held to a different set of standards because hes a gay man? I guess DSM should just be lucky that you tolerate him; and keep away from stating anything controversial ?

**amcon** · 12-01-2011, 06:17 PM

im allowed to my op correct - and so is dsm or any one else that can post here...

i expressed my op

and crime rates are more about not having a father (the father not wanting the child) then "Unwanted" children in this world... big diff

and again sorry to dsm for going after him like that - however, i expect more from some on in his community. i respect dsm for who he is but doesnt mean i should give him special treatment cuz he is who he is (gay), i do think he should be more sensitive to this type of conversation cuz of all the hardships he prob has gone thru cuz of where he came from and where he is now.

***Admin*** · 12-01-2011, 06:22 PM

I am keeping an eye on this thread so other know that... I am leaving it alone thus far... let us all keep this civil as has been so far and not cross any lines... yes each one is entitled to his or her opinion... however remember to respect each others opinions as well.

**amcon** · 12-01-2011, 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by xelnaga

I fail to see the correlation between someones stance on abortion and their sexuality. Both topics aside its counter productive to make a debate personal. Why should DSM be held to a different set of standards because hes a gay man? I guess DSM should just be lucky that you tolerate him; and keep away from stating anything controversial ?

being gay, and going thru hardships cuz of that should make any one more sensitive to life... again my op

and yes a gay man would have diff set of standards cuz he is gay, and i wouldnt dislike dsm or any other gay person cuz of the choice to be gay... i would dislike them on there stance of abortion. love the person hate the sin so as a man i care for the well being of dsm or any other person in this world.

**JohnnyVegas** · 12-01-2011, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by amcon

im allowed to my op correct - and so is dsm or any one else that can post here...

i expressed my op

and crime rates are more about not having a father (the father not wanting the child) then "Unwanted" children in this world... big diff

and again sorry to dsm for going after him like that - however, i expect more from some on in his community. i respect dsm for who he is but doesnt mean i should give him special treatment cuz he is who he is (gay), i do think he should be more sensitive to this type of conversation cuz of all the hardships he prob has gone thru cuz of where he came from and where he is now.

Dude, you are totally allowed to have your opinion. And I have enjoyed reading it. I like people that STAND for things...and you do that. I just noted that you started to get a little illogical.

Regarding crime rates and fathers versus unwanted children (or the overall argument that legalizing abortion has had a huge effect on crime rates), give this a read. Or skip to page 414 for the conclusion: http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levi...alized2001.pdf

I know it won't override your belief that this is a moral argument, not an ethical one, but it is interesting data.

**amcon** · 12-01-2011, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by *Admin*

I am keeping an eye on this thread so other know that... I am leaving it alone thus far... let us all keep this civil as has been so far and not cross any lines... yes each one is entitled to his or her opinion... however remember to respect each others opinions as well.

thanks for letting me know lol, again sorry to have such stong views and sorry to have singled dsm out in his comment - i will not cross the line of flaming - however i know it is very close, i would like to just express my op, it is a strong subject and i feel lucky to have a place to express it.

i can not respect the op of some one who will kill a baby... i sure you can understand that, it is just being civil about it.

again to be very very respectful to dsm after single him out - i hear your op and strongly disagree

lets not make this my view of dsm (i know he is a well respected member of steroid dot com, has good knowledge and great funny feed back at times, tho his avatar sucks (lol) )

**amcon** · 12-01-2011, 06:32 PM

Originally Posted by JohnnyVegas

Dude, you are totally allowed to have your opinion. And I have enjoyed reading it. I like people that STAND for things...and you do that. I just noted that you started to get a little illogical.

Regarding crime rates and fathers versus unwanted children (or the overall argument that legalizing abortion has had a huge effect on crime rates), give this a read. Or skip to page 414 for the conclusion: http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levi...alized2001.pdf

I know it won't override your belief that this is a moral argument, not an ethical one, but it is interesting data.

"Ethics, also known as moral philosophy, is a branch of philosophy that addresses questions about morality—that is, concepts such as good and evil, right and wrong, virtue and vice, justice and crime, etc"

to me morals and ethics are very very close... thanks for the post i normally dont read them cuz any one can make and numbers/studies say what ever they want... but cuz you put the time in so will i

**amcon** · 12-01-2011, 06:37 PM

just a quick google search on this ... of coarse from my point of view

"...Fifteen minutes of Googling would have shown book reviewers of Freakonomics that the abortion-cut-crime theory hadn't come close to meeting the burden of proof, but, instead..."

full artical ---> http://www.isteve.com/abortion.htm

**gixxerboy1** · 12-01-2011, 07:03 PM

amcon but just as crazy as you think it is to kill a baby. Some people think its just as crazy to call a fetus or a group of cells a baby.

**DSM4Life** · 12-01-2011, 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by amcon

DSM - horrible comment, i have less respect for you than i had before(maybe that is me being mean, but i would expect more from a gay man), you are promoting killing babies, that would be like me saying i promote decrimitation of gays because i believe they are unwanted (in my world). being a openly gay man you would think that of all pp,l you would have a little more respect for life and "not being able to make a choice about how you are" meaning your gay not by choice but by birth (and that is whole nother discussion... its enviomemnt not born gay) a baby doesnt have a choice... dead or alive.

no egg can survive out side of the way it is supposta grow!!! grrr think! weather it is a penguin, or a chicken, or a turtle, OR A HUMAN, that doesnt stop it from being the thing it was created to be!

dsm - sorry to so strongly disagree with you but you need to get a world view that is in a direction of life and progression - your ppl need it!

You seem to imply that I care about if you respect me, I do not. Like Xel said my opinion on the topic has nothing to do with my sexuality.

We have two worlds:
Fantasy world - Let's all make babies and not be able to care/ pay for them. Ahh so nice and beautiful.
Reality- Unwanted children are a HUGE problem in America. Not only do they cost a lot of money but most of the time these kids aren't given a chance to live positive lives (i said most, not all). They get passed around from one shelter/family house to another all their lives until they are 18. Then at 18 they "age out" of the system and then are left to fend for themselves on the streets. Sounds like a great life.

Again back to my original statement. If you are not pro-choice and you don't adopt a child then you are a hypocrite. All these protesters run around chanting "save the babies," "this is murder" but not one of them adopts a child.

It's my opinion if you don't like it then tough.

Then when there are people who want to adopt (gay and straight), it cost close to 30-50K for a child. How the hell does that system work when there are so many children in the system?

**JohnnyVegas** · 12-01-2011, 07:13 PM

My beliefs have shifted over time because I constantly read about interesting issues like this, and discuss them with others. Like now...and I enjoy it.

You should know that I am relatively anti-abortion and I believe the "choice" (and a discussion and plan) should be made before having sex. I am against casual abortion. I am against late abortion. I am against irresponsible behavior that gets people to a point where they need to decide their position on abortion on the fly. I am against not being psychotically careful about pregnancy if the couple has no intention of taking care of the child, no plan to stay together or no resources or interest in raising a child. We probably don't disagree on any of that. I am not against sex, but I am insanely against unwanted pregnancy.

I have two gray areas: knowing when a group of cells becomes a person, and how this issue effects society on a higher level.

Gray area one: I don't think conception is the cut off. The body makes sure that plenty of fertilized eggs don't implant...and that is not murder, or part of a divine plan. It is just biology. I am not locked into the idea that a fertilized egg is a person and that the sanctity of life applies. But deciding where that cut off is leads down a very slippery slope and I don't pretend to know where that cut off is.

Gray area two: there is no proof that the report I posted (and all the supporting research) shows the correlation is causation (well, because correlation is NEVER causation). Still, I love science and allow it to interfere with my beliefs all the time. I like to expose myself to new things, and that is how I know that Indian food is so frickin' delicious!

Here is the thing about morals and ethics: Moral belief does not require that we are reasonable or justified, but ethics does. I read that... and agree.

**JohnnyVegas** · 12-01-2011, 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by amcon

just a quick google search on this ... of coarse from my point of view

"...Fifteen minutes of Googling would have shown book reviewers of Freakonomics that the abortion-cut-crime theory hadn't come close to meeting the burden of proof, but, instead..."

full artical ---> http://www.isteve.com/abortion.htm

Yup, there will always be people on both sides of any issue. Some people will read both and come up with their own conclusion (or have some gray areas in their conclusion depending on the strengths of both arguments). Others will simply pick the one that that agrees with what they already believe. Surely you don't already have a point of view on this...I posted a 450 page report, and you responded quickly with a very long report that rebuts it. Have you already decided that the one that agrees with you is instantly 100% correct and the other one is 100% incorrect?

**JohnnyVegas** · 12-01-2011, 07:25 PM

Here is a timely link: http://nation.foxnews.com/homelessne...ll-my-children

It is an interesting news story. I think it is more about the importance of birth control and reproductive responsibility than abortion, but still interesting.

**amcon** · 12-01-2011, 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by gixxerboy1

amcon but just as crazy as you think it is to kill a baby. Some people think its just as crazy to call a fetus or a group of cells a baby.

as soon as egg and sperm are combined life are created - and do get ppl believe that - some ppl believe in santa and tooth fairy as well.

**xelnaga** · 12-01-2011, 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by amcon

as soon as egg and sperm are combined life are created - and do get ppl believe that - some ppl believe in santa and tooth fairy as well.

Agreed.

**amcon** · 12-01-2011, 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by JohnnyVegas

Yup, there will always be people on both sides of any issue. Some people will read both and come up with their own conclusion (or have some gray areas in their conclusion depending on the strengths of both arguments). Others will simply pick the one that that agrees with what they already believe. Surely you don't already have a point of view on this...I posted a 450 page report, and you responded quickly with a very long report that rebuts it. Have you already decided that the one that agrees with you is instantly 100% correct and the other one is 100% incorrect?

not really, i do belive that there alway two sides... maybe three...(and of coarse in most cases i would believe my op was correct) i was prepairing dinner and couldnt read yours, but you inspired me to search really quick to see what i could find...

**JohnnyVegas** · 12-01-2011, 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by amcon

as soon as egg and sperm are combined life are created - and do get ppl believe that - some ppl believe in santa and tooth fairy as well.

I have always thought those things were alive before combined. Usually they don't meet up and just die off. You know who I feel bad for? The millions of swimmies that aren't the lucky one that gets the egg. Poor little guys.

Originally Posted by amcon

not really, i do belive that there alway two sides... maybe three...

Touché my friend...touché.

**gixxerboy1** · 12-01-2011, 08:11 PM

Originally Posted by amcon

as soon as egg and sperm are combined life are created - and do get ppl believe that - some ppl believe in santa and tooth fairy as well.

i understand people believe that. And a cell is not life to some people. Neither side is going to change their minds. Its a difference of opinion. Going to santa and the tooth fairy makes you look ridiculous and only hurts your argument.

**amcon** · 12-01-2011, 08:12 PM

Originally Posted by DSM4Life

You seem to imply that I care about if you respect me, I do not. Like Xel said my opinion on the topic has nothing to do with my sexuality.

We have two worlds:
Fantasy world - Let's all make babies and not be able to care/ pay for them. Ahh so nice and beautiful.
Reality- Unwanted children are a HUGE problem in America. Not only do they cost a lot of money but most of the time these kids aren't given a chance to live positive lives (i said most, not all). They get passed around from one shelter/family house to another all their lives until they are 18. Then at 18 they "age out" of the system and then are left to fend for themselves on the streets. Sounds like a great life.

Again back to my original statement. If you are not pro-choice and you don't adopt a child then you are a hypocrite. All these protesters run around chanting "save the babies," "this is murder" but not one of them adopts a child.

It's my opinion if you don't like it then tough.

Then when there are people who want to adopt (gay and straight), it cost close to 30-50K for a child. How the hell does that system work when there are so many children in the system?

i dont want to get off subject too much but i do believe your sexual preference does reflect you op, and thats ok cuz you take ownership of both. (your sexuality your proud of it and your op, you have comfort with what you say) my point (maybe made poorly) is that i would expect that you should have more respect for life cuz you have gone thru hardships - thus appriciate life more.

addressing hypocrite (pro life/ not adopting), im against bank roberies too... should i go and stand in a bank so i can stop bank robberies? should i give money to the bank after they were robbed? you are making comment as all pro choice ppl would - the point is if you do the crime you do the time - guy gets grl preg THEY BOTH NOW HAVE "TIME" TO SPEND RAISING RESPONSIBLE CHILDREN. the answer is not to kill the babies ie. fetus's to get rid of the problem -

and i dont like your op !! i think is sucks - BUT it is yours and i dont hope to change it i hope to make anyone think... i hope all of this thread makes ppl think

your views are to the far left, mine to the far right (right as in correct - lol)

and final point at least we agree on one thing - unwanted children are a problem (the children are not a problem but the situation) and it is just plain stupid to charge some one 50 k to adopt children (ppl i know have spent around 20k) IT SHOULD BE FREE!! NO WAIT THE PEOPLE SHOULD GET PAID TO HELP THESE CHILDREN

**amcon** · 12-01-2011, 08:22 PM

Originally Posted by gixxerboy1

i understand people believe that. And a cell is not life to some people. Neither side is going to change their minds. Its a difference of opinion. Going to santa and the tooth fairy makes you look ridiculous and only hurts your argument.

lol... i have never been afraid of looking rediculous - and i think that comparison so supper funny

and for the record - i realize my stance wont change a person thoughts, im hard,abbrasive, antagonistic - but i do hope it makes ppl stop and think how important this subject is.

**gixxerboy1** · 12-01-2011, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by amcon

lol... i have never been afraid of looking rediculous - and i think that comparison so supper funny

and for the record - i realize my stance wont change a person thoughts, im hard,abbrasive, antagonistic - but i do hope it makes ppl stop and think how important this subject is.

i look at it this way. The load i blow on my wifes ass isnt a person because it touched an egg instead of the crack of her ass