Anti Anxiety Meds

[< <Samson> >]

Anyone on em?

I have been on anti anxiety meds ever since I got off the d***

I don't take them during the day, just 3 hours before bed.

So far, this is the best I have felt sober in years. No tendency to go back. But, I can't sleep - my sleep patterns post coming off were awful. I would be very restless & would wake up every 2-3 hours while only sleeping 4-6 hours.

Now, I sleep perfect 7 hours without any other sides.

But, my issue is I want to come off. I tried a handful of times & no go. Straight insomnia and same shit at best. I would awake every two hours.

So, after a long period being clean - will this go away? During the day I feel 100% - just straight anxiety at night.

[Bonaparte]

What med and dose?

[< <Samson> >]

What med and dose?

.5mg of Xanax

[Scabtree]

If you feel you absolutely must go off, try .25 for at least two weeks to 1 month; then go off completely. Xanax (or any benzodiazepine) can really screw with you when you go off them; so be sure to do it slowly and watch for side effects.

Why did you feel you need to go off it when it seems to be working?

[< <Samson> >]

Why did you feel you need to go off it when it seems to be working?

Just hoping 100% true sobriety is within reach


It's very strong, I can't even handle more than my current dose. I just fall in to super deep sleep as soon as it kicks in. Just makes me useless.


Tapering down sounds like a decent idea though. Even .5mg is no joke - I just get very dazed - no way I can handle it during a normal working day.

[Khazima]

Xanax has the potential to ruin lives completely, I've had 2 bouts of addiction/dependence with it and it's easily the most destructive drug I've ever used, and the most horrific to come off.

Try weaning off, start as scab said with .25 then go to .125 for a while, then come off completely and try using melatonin to help aid sleep.

True sobriety is definitely within reach man, you'll just need to take some difficult steps to get there. It's worth it.

[< <Samson> >]

Xanax is not a rec drug of mine by any means. I hate downers - I can't even smoke w**d - just makes me a useless pile. I haven't smoked for quite a while now & don't even want to.


So Xanax was a go to alternative. I hate it with a passion at anything above my current dose. Well, even with my current dose it impairs me too much to do anything productive. But, not being able to sleep is a no go.


What will prolonged use do? Is it habit forming or does toleration go up? Last thing I'd want is to have to take more of this garbage.

My neighbor suggested that. Go a natural route - I never even got anxiety from AAs - just when I went cold turkey off d***, my sleep went to shit. Yet, I feel 101% better all day - every day. Can't have everything I guess. What's interesting is usually I have a addictive personality towards shit. But, at this point I have zero want to go get fvcked up. All gone - but, as soon as I did, anxiety kicked in hard at night. Like now, I am fatigued from a long ass day. But, there's no way I could sleep.

Tapering down sounds like a damn decent idea though. Since even a half of g, just plows me down.

[Khazima]

Yes you'll build a tolerance over time and you can build a dependance, I used Valium to get off of about 5mg Xanax daily and it didn't do shit. Incredibly bad cramps, vomiting, diahrea and insane vivid dreams during the short periods of time I was able to sleep. Better off exploring every option before taking something so strong. Have you tried melatonin and other safer alternatives?

My perception of Xanax is a bit skewed I must say, after my experiences I picture it as the devil itself... Worst addiction I've had.

[< <Samson> >]

My perception of Xanax is a bit skewed I must say, after my experiences I picture it as the devil itself... Worst addiction I've had.

Wow, that's no so good to hear


But, why? Did you feel that you needed to keep upping the dose? Was it no longer working?


I have been on this shit for a while now & seem 100%. But, not years or nything. So, I am looking for a way off before it becomes something bad.

[Khazima]

Weaning off and trying natural solutions would be ideal. Perhaps finding the reason for your insomnia would help as well.

I took it to combat the anxiety from other drugs I was taking, especially the strong social anxiety I'd experience without drinking.

So I'd take it upon waking, initially .5mg, then another .5 another 3-4 hours later (Xanax is short acting) then repeat every 3-4 hours until I'd be drinking at night, some nights I'd end out forgetting I'd taken any and take 3-4mg while drinking, usually ending in severe blackouts and waking in jail cells.

My anxiety was manageable at first, horrid but manageable, it wasn't until I became dependant on Xanax that I would experience panic attacks trying to cross a busy road.

Long story short Xanax is fvcked and the worst solution to any problem, it enrages me how freely doctors hand it out for mild cases of anxiety or insomnia, when much simpler remedies will often work.

[Bonaparte]

You should taper off it. Coming off benzodiazepines too quickly has the potential to cause lethal seizures (though I doubt you're sufficiently dependent on it for anything that dramatic to happen).

[< <Samson> >]

First time that I cut the dose in half. Not perfect but manageable feeling. Barely got a little over hours of sleep.

But, still seemed to have helped enough. .25 from now on it - being dependent on anything mentally altering is crap IMO.

It's not like TRT and juice - that's the best comparison I have.


I'll keep myself at this dose until something changes. After a week or two, I'll try another day with straight nothing.

Higher doses - like 2gs have also made me black out in the past when I tried the drug for rec purposes. Kind of why I never liked it & know it can't turn out well if I stay on super long term.

Yet, thanks to stuff I have managed to stay clean this long. Good enough, I suppose.

Thanks for all the posts - I didn't really know where or who to ask. Since just a script - shit & they can't prescribe juice.

[thegodfather]

First time that I cut the dose in half. Not perfect but manageable feeling. Barely got a little over hours of sleep.

But, still seemed to have helped enough. .25 from now on it - being dependent on anything mentally altering is crap IMO.

It's not like TRT and juice - that's the best comparison I have.


I'll keep myself at this dose until something changes. After a week or two, I'll try another day with straight nothing.

Higher doses - like 2gs have also made me black out in the past when I tried the drug for rec purposes. Kind of why I never liked it & know it can't turn out well if I stay on super long term.

Yet, thanks to stuff I have managed to stay clean this long. Good enough, I suppose.

Thanks for all the posts - I didn't really know where or who to ask. Since just a script - shit & they can't prescribe juice.

I came off of it as a result of moving from the USA to Ukraine, where the medication is not even approved for use or available. I had very bad sleep for about 2 weeks, but other then that its been fine. The Diazepam(valium) taper sounds like a good idea. Your dose is relatively modest, the maximum is supposed to be at 4mg per day. I'd say to taper by 33% per 2 weeks, it would be helpful to get prescribed .25 tablets that are scored, so you can dose by .125mg at a time, and even halve those if necessary. You can easily stop .5mg with a much shorter one week taper, but obviously the longer you draw the taper out the less side effects you will experience.

[jesse4466]

I will just say this: Xanax is only one of a few drugs that when stopping cold turkey, in addiction, can kill you. That's how much control it has over your body. Same with true alcohol addiction.

I've had friends who aren't here today who took Xanax with other things and didn't survive. Xanax is a killer. Be careful, I dont take that ever myself anymore. And no narcotics in general.

Sobriety is a beautiful thing. I was completely sober for 3 years and now just drink socially with friends here and there. But there is nothing more inspiring and beautiful then living a life completely sober. It allows you to appreciate every detail in life, even the bad ones..

Best of luck to you. You can definitely do it.

[yettibecsuse]

it is a serious drug and physically and psychologically addictive; but remember; if you are disciplined which you are; you must weigh the .5 dose a night versus high levels of anxiety inregards to sleep and your health; it might sound not right not to stop but; there are many, many people who drink, smoke, overindulge in food and are not disciplined and do not train 2 hours a day like you probably do. no sleep and high, consistent levels of anxiety regarding sleep are morr destructive to your health than .5 of benzo to sleep. Taper try melatonin, even s anti depressant and see if that helps, even relaxation methods; but if all ekse fails and you csn maintain a .5 dose a night without the fear

[yettibecsuse]

of addiction then monitor your health on that dose and don't beat your self up; some people just need help sleeping

[< <Samson> >]

I'm not gonna lie or sugar coat it. Since I have been "sober" - I still drink on rare occasions, I'd say 2-4 times in the last month at most. And when I say drink, I mean have 2-4 drinks max. Not to the point of drunk & not late at night close to bed time.


I never officially said to myself I quit doing everything - that's the kind of shit that would give me a whole lot more anxiety, just knowing I can not do anything ever again.


It just needs to be in extreme moderation if that. Plus, I have some important interviews coming up for the city. Not passing a UA is just not an option.

[Khazima]

I'm not gonna lie or sugar coat it. Since I have been "sober" - I still drink on rare occasions, I'd say 2-4 times in the last month at most. And when I say drink, I mean have 2-4 drinks max. Not to the point of drunk & not late at night close to bed time.


I never officially said to myself I quit doing everything - that's the kind of shit that would give me a whole lot more anxiety, just knowing I can not do anything ever again.


It just needs to be in extreme moderation if that. Plus, I have some important interviews coming up for the city. Not passing a UA is just not an option.

Don't think of it as not being able to do it again forever. Take it one day at a time and each day just say to yourself today I won't drink or drug today. One day at a time, every time you feel inclined to drink, just think not today. Take each day as it comes and don't think to far ahead when it comes to any drink or drug related problems, that's the untangling of manys sobriety.

I haven't drank a drop for about 15 months, haven't drugged (smoked weed for a few days) for over 6 months, after not smoking for about 8 months. I don't consider that I'll never drink or drug again, I hope I don't but I have no idea what the future holds. I do know I won't be drinking or drugging today though.

[< <Samson> >]

Well said


The way I look at it is that I can't stay fvcked up forever. When I come off/down I feel much worse than just normal and sober. You miss the extra added high feeling from whatever, med, alcohol or whatever it may be.


My issues are that I have a super addictive personality & I took the shit too lightly. Thinking dumb shit like I am above addiction and I can just stop whenever I wanted. Then one day, I realized how long I have been on whatever. And that I was on something 80% or so and sober/coming down the other 20%. I still maintained and never turned into any form of junkie where it interfered with my life. This actually made it even worse & gave me an empowering feeling of beyond above it.


Yeah, no more - Longest I have been sober in a few years & feeling better than ever without any additives. Well, aside from not being able to sleep too well.

I am actually doing this with someone else. He came off cold turkey before me & was a much heavier user. Seeing him come off(not voluntarily) and being able to do it, really proved that I will be well & sober. He's experiencing extreme anxiety, much worse than mine - but he refuses to take a script. He's been off almost double of myself & still has irregular sleeping patterns. But, is getting better with time. He seems to be gaining quite bit of weight trying calm him self down. Along with anxiety he is experiencing random paranoia - thankfully this was gone within a week of me being clean.

[Cody95]

Anyone on em?

I have been on anti anxiety meds ever since I got off the d***

I don't take them during the day, just 3 hours before bed.

So far, this is the best I have felt sober in years. No tendency to go back. But, I can't sleep - my sleep patterns post coming off were awful. I would be very restless & would wake up every 2-3 hours while only sleeping 4-6 hours.

Now, I sleep perfect 7 hours without any other sides.

But, my issue is I want to come off. I tried a handful of times & no go. Straight insomnia and same shit at best. I would awake every two hours.

So, after a long period being clean - will this go away? During the day I feel 100% - just straight anxiety at night.

You could try tianeptine, around 15mg 3 times daily, no prescription, for depression and anxiety, I used it a couple times recreationaly, it works great. Honestly I would try homeopathic, I've had anxiety sense I can remember, at least 5 nights of the week I would have terrible anxiety where I had complete nausea for hours and I couldn't sleep, imagine having the flu almost everynight for 10+ years, and throughout the day sometimes, but I talked to the owner of a local health/homeopathic store, and I took stuff for about a year all together. Increadable difference within the first couple months, I've been 99% anxiety free ever since. hope this helps.

[Khazima]

Well said


The way I look at it is that I can't stay fvcked up forever. When I come off/down I feel much worse than just normal and sober. You miss the extra added high feeling from whatever, med, alcohol or whatever it may be.


My issues are that I have a super addictive personality & I took the shit too lightly. Thinking dumb shit like I am above addiction and I can just stop whenever I wanted. Then one day, I realized how long I have been on whatever. And that I was on something 80% or so and sober/coming down the other 20%. I still maintained and never turned into any form of junkie where it interfered with my life. This actually made it even worse & gave me an empowering feeling of beyond above it.


Yeah, no more - Longest I have been sober in a few years & feeling better than ever without any additives. Well, aside from not being able to sleep too well.

I am actually doing this with someone else. He came off cold turkey before me & was a much heavier user. Seeing him come off(not voluntarily) and being able to do it, really proved that I will be well & sober. He's experiencing extreme anxiety, much worse than mine - but he refuses to take a script. He's been off almost double of myself & still has irregular sleeping patterns. But, is getting better with time. He seems to be gaining quite bit of weight trying calm him self down. Along with anxiety he is experiencing random paranoia - thankfully this was gone within a week of me being clean.

It's good that you've come to those conclusions, definitely sounds like you're on the path to complete sobriety. It's hard at first and at times seems like the effort isn't worth the payoff, especially if you experience severe insomnia/panic attacks and other harsh symptoms, it seems to easy to just turn back to the pill or drink and it'll go away temporarily. But if you soldier through it the end result is well worth the suffering.

All the best

[swansong]

I have been on various benzos off and on for the past 15 years. I fist started on xanax @1mg but it did absolutely nothing. I then switched to Oxazepm and worked my way up from 15 mg to 60 mg. 60 mg of Oxazepam is absolute tranquility. Nothing beats it. But my doctor to me off of it cold turkey. However, I did not go into withdraw because I was also on other meds such as the tricyclics that are older meds and believer it or not or way more powerful because of their heavy sedation.

So then my doctors took me off of the Oxapeman and put my on the most powerful sedatives (next to a general anesthetic) such as Seroquel and Nozinan, both anti-psycotics. These drugs are powerful. My depression and anxiety was so severe the doctors would knock me out with these drugs and night, and then sleep all day. Eventually, I started experiencing side effects such as bruxism (teeth grinding) and I believer tardive dyskinesia.

So I saw a new doctor and he took me off the anti-psychotics (I ****ing hated the side effects despite being great for sleep). So my new doctor started me on 2 mg of Clonazepam and I have been on this drug for about 4 years or so.

I have decided with my doctor that we are going to start tapering me off the Clonazepam.

But I should be fine because they are prescribed me sleeping pills.

****ing psychiatrists love to prescribe drugs.

A word of advice, if you are having problems and your doctor suggests anti-psychotic tell him no. They turn you into a zombie: you sleep all night and day, and they are notorious for packing on weight at a very high fast rate.

[swansong]

Anyone on em?

I have been on anti anxiety meds ever since I got off the d***

I don't take them during the day, just 3 hours before bed.

So far, this is the best I have felt sober in years. No tendency to go back. But, I can't sleep - my sleep patterns post coming off were awful. I would be very restless & would wake up every 2-3 hours while only sleeping 4-6 hours.

Now, I sleep perfect 7 hours without any other sides.

But, my issue is I want to come off. I tried a handful of times & no go. Straight insomnia and same shit at best. I would awake every two hours.

So, after a long period being clean - will this go away? During the day I feel 100% - just straight anxiety at night.

I started a thread a few days ago similar to what you are talking about.

I will post it here for you:

Mental Health

[thegodfather]

It's good that you've come to those conclusions, definitely sounds like you're on the path to complete sobriety. It's hard at first and at times seems like the effort isn't worth the payoff, especially if you experience severe insomnia/panic attacks and other harsh symptoms, it seems to easy to just turn back to the pill or drink and it'll go away temporarily. But if you soldier through it the end result is well worth the suffering.

All the best

Sorry, but the entire 'treatment community' is preaching 50 year old abstinence based recovery which is not based in science what so ever, and their advice has probably caused as many deaths as people saved by their system. Working in mainstream healthcare I've seen the harm that's come to people because of advice they got at their shitty 'meetings'. Advocating to mentally ill people with bi-polar and other mental illness's that they not take their Lithium or other necessary medicines because they aren't 'clean' is RIDICULOUS, and not at all based in REAL SCIENCE. Abstinence based recovery has <8% success rates, and it is extremely harmful. Telling patients that if they can't follow your BULLSHIT program there is something 'constitutionally wrong' with them is extremely irresponsible, damaging, and should be considered medical malpractice open to the lawsuits and liability that comes with it. I would NEVER let these people in my hospital preaching their unscientific bullshit to patients with a serious medical illness, that requires a SERIOUS medical response and treatment. Specifically with regard to opoid maintenance and replacement therapy, which boasts success rates in the high double digits, is effective at restoring patients quality of life, and does not rely on a system of peer pressure and public shaming. If you think your NA/AA groups are anything more than that, you're deluding yourself, however if you find that this system works for you, I'm an advocate of whatever works, even if it may be scientifically unproven. Patients should be offered comprehensive multi-modal solutions to include but not limited to, medicines, cognitive behavioral therapy, and one on one counseling. That is a true modern medical solution to the problem, and our infrastructure and paradigms in medicine will soon (+/- 5 years) reflect this.

[Khazima]

Sorry, but the entire 'treatment community' is preaching 50 year old abstinence based recovery which is not based in science what so ever, and their advice has probably caused as many deaths as people saved by their system. Working in mainstream healthcare I've seen the harm that's come to people because of advice they got at their shitty 'meetings'. Advocating to mentally ill people with bi-polar and other mental illness's that they not take their Lithium or other necessary medicines because they aren't 'clean' is RIDICULOUS, and not at all based in REAL SCIENCE. Abstinence based recovery has <8% success rates, and it is extremely harmful. Telling patients that if they can't follow your BULLSHIT program there is something 'constitutionally wrong' with them is extremely irresponsible, damaging, and should be considered medical malpractice open to the lawsuits and liability that comes with it. I would NEVER let these people in my hospital preaching their unscientific bullshit to patients with a serious medical illness, that requires a SERIOUS medical response and treatment. Specifically with regard to opoid maintenance and replacement therapy, which boasts success rates in the high double digits, is effective at restoring patients quality of life, and does not rely on a system of peer pressure and public shaming. If you think your NA/AA groups are anything more than that, you're deluding yourself, however if you find that this system works for you, I'm an advocate of whatever works, even if it may be scientifically unproven. Patients should be offered comprehensive multi-modal solutions to include but not limited to, medicines, cognitive behavioral therapy, and one on one counseling. That is a true modern medical solution to the problem, and our infrastructure and paradigms in medicine will soon (+/- 5 years) reflect this.

This discussion isn't about people with serious medical issues, I stated multiple times that strong drugs like Xanax should be saved as a last case scenario. Not once did I say that seriously Ill people should abstain from drugs completely.

I'm referring to drug addiction, not medication. AA and NA is where millions have come to clean themselves up, you clearly have no understanding of how it works and helps people. The fact you're a medical professional and wouldn't recommend these meetings to people with drug addictions is appalling.

[Khazima]

Patients should be offered comprehensive multi-modal solutions to include but not limited to, medicines, cognitive behavioral therapy, and one on one counseling. That is a true modern medical solution to the problem.

I agree, unfortunately the 'medicines' are what are out of whack when it comes to addiction, giving someone Xanax to overcome the anxiety from alcohol withdrawals, methadone for heroin (which has it's place, but so many end out with worse addictions and health problems) long term antipsychotics for someone who has temporary psychosis off a meth binge or something. These drugs are being handed out like candy and it's not the solution, I do agree they have their place, but not so freely as a hardcore solution to so many minor problems.

[thegodfather]

This discussion isn't about people with serious medical issues, I stated multiple times that strong drugs like Xanax should be saved as a last case scenario. Not once did I say that seriously Ill people should abstain from drugs completely.

I'm referring to drug addiction, not medication. AA and NA is where millions have come to clean themselves up, you clearly have no understanding of how it works and helps people. The fact you're a medical professional and wouldn't recommend these meetings to people with drug addictions is appalling.

I have a great understanding of the meetings, I would recommend them as a complement to mainstream medical science such as medication, replacement therapy or antagonists, cognitive behavioral therapy, etc. By the way, when I said serious medical issues, I was also referring to those afflicted with substance dependence ('addiction' is not a recognized disease in the DSM, but substance dependence is, and I refuse to use words created by an industry for the purpose of profiting from peoples pain and suffering). I believe that any organization that ONLY advocates AA/NA as a means of recovery are committing malpractice, and the fact that they will not consider other multi-modal methods of treatment IS malpractice, it is DANGEROUS, and it CAUSES DEATHS in this country. The statistics do not lie, and a SUB 8% recovery rate is nothing to be proud of, when there are proven, scientifically sound, medicine based alternatives which DO produce results and DO save peoples lives. If substance dependence is in fact a brain disease, then by definition a group of people in a room would not be capable of curing it. Just as a group of people in a room could not cure someone of diabetes or cancer. This is a MEDICAL ILLNESS with a MEDICAL SOLUTION, not a bunch of laymen's in a room peer pressuring one another and preaching total abstinence from all drugs. AA/NA works for a very very small percentage of patients, and I do not actually take issue with the group itself, they're great people. I mostly take issue with the 'rehabs' who ONLY preach abstinence based recovery, when the science PROVES that it most often ends in failure, relapse, and very often DEATH. In addition, I can't count how many patients have gone off their psych meds because some DOUHEBAG at an AA/NA meeting told them they aren't actually 'clean' if they take meds. That is a decision SOLELY up to the patient and his/her doctor, and ANYONE who gives ADVICE at a meeting that they stop taking those medications should be held criminally liable for giving medical advice without a license. That is the only way to stop dangerous and destructive advice from being given to extremely vulnerable people. The entire 'treatment' community as a whole is not based in science, at least those organizations who offer only an abstinence based/faith based recovery to patients, and it's appalling to me that the insurance companies actually pay these witch doctors to preach their unscientific and unsupported bullshit. Why does the average substance dependent person take 7 stints in rehab to abstain for at least 1 year? Because their programs do not work. The average cost for 7 - 30 day rehab stays? $210,000 US Dollars. Believe me, I can achieve far superior results with medicine, cognitive behavioral therapy, and an IOP.

[thegodfather]

The Columbia report found that most addiction treatment providers are not medical professionals and are not equipped with the knowledge, skills or credentials needed to provide the full range of evidence-based services, including medication and psychosocial therapy. The authors suggested that such insufficient care could be considered “a form of medical malpractice.”

The failings of many treatment programs — and the comprehensive therapies that have been scientifically validated but remain vastly underused — are described in an eye-opening new book, “Inside Rehab,” by Anne M. Fletcher, a science writer whose previous books include the highly acclaimed “Sober for Good.”

“There are exceptions, but of the many thousands of treatment programs out there, most use exactly the same kind of treatment you would have received in 1950, not modern scientific approaches,” A. Thomas McLellan, co-founder of the Treatment Research Institute in Philadelphia, told Ms. Fletcher.]

I can't tell you how many "COUNSELORS" I've met who have a Bachelor of Arts in bullshit, and some stupid addiction counseling certificate they got online at the University of Phoenix. These people are TOTALLY unqualified to counsel people, most often are recovering substance abusers themselves, and are NOT MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS! That anyone spends $1,000 per day to be treated by these snake oil salesmen is a travesty of medicine and justice...I have yet to meet a single PhD or Psy.D working at a treatment center within 50 miles of the hospital. It is unconscionable to receive 'treatment' from these people, and it is no wonder that the majority of people fail at recovery with people with those credentials running treatment facilities. These are real, fact based criticisms of an industry that largely is based on profits, cashing in on the misery of these patients while offering no scientifically sound solutions for them.

[Khazima]

I have a great understanding of the meetings, I would recommend them as a complement to mainstream medical science such as medication, replacement therapy or antagonists, cognitive behavioral therapy, etc. By the way, when I said serious medical issues, I was also referring to those afflicted with substance dependence ('addiction' is not a recognized disease in the DSM, but substance dependence is, and I refuse to use words created by an industry for the purpose of profiting from peoples pain and suffering). I believe that any organization that ONLY advocates AA/NA as a means of recovery are committing malpractice, and the fact that they will not consider other multi-modal methods of treatment IS malpractice, it is DANGEROUS, and it CAUSES DEATHS in this country. The statistics do not lie, and a SUB 8% recovery rate is nothing to be proud of, when there are proven, scientifically sound, medicine based alternatives which DO produce results and DO save peoples lives. If substance dependence is in fact a brain disease, then by definition a group of people in a room would not be capable of curing it. Just as a group of people in a room could not cure someone of diabetes or cancer. This is a MEDICAL ILLNESS with a MEDICAL SOLUTION, not a bunch of laymen's in a room peer pressuring one another and preaching total abstinence from all drugs. AA/NA works for a very very small percentage of patients, and I do not actually take issue with the group itself, they're great people. I mostly take issue with the 'rehabs' who ONLY preach abstinence based recovery, when the science PROVES that it most often ends in failure, relapse, and very often DEATH. In addition, I can't count how many patients have gone off their psych meds because some DOUHEBAG at an AA/NA meeting told them they aren't actually 'clean' if they take meds. That is a decision SOLELY up to the patient and his/her doctor, and ANYONE who gives ADVICE at a meeting that they stop taking those medications should be held criminally liable for giving medical advice without a license. That is the only way to stop dangerous and destructive advice from being given to extremely vulnerable people. The entire 'treatment' community as a whole is not based in science, at least those organizations who offer only an abstinence based/faith based recovery to patients, and it's appalling to me that the insurance companies actually pay these witch doctors to preach their unscientific and unsupported bullshit. Why does the average substance dependent person take 7 stints in rehab to abstain for at least 1 year? Because their programs do not work. The average cost for 7 - 30 day rehab stays? $210,000 US Dollars. Believe me, I can achieve far superior results with medicine, cognitive behavioral therapy, and an IOP.

I agree with your take on substance dependence. That's not the only factor to addiction, abstinence is king when it comes to people with an addictive nature.

[thegodfather]

I agree with your take on substance dependence. That's not the only factor to addiction, abstinence is king when it comes to people with an addictive nature.

My entire point is that abstinence is not king, particularly with those dependent on opoids. My point is that treatment centers who only advocate abstinence based recovery should be put out of business, and relegated to the same fate as snake oil salesmen, witch doctors, and others who offer a solution which causes real harm. Listening to people from AA/NA, they sound cult like in their belief in their system which too often leads to great harm and death. My point is these support groups are FINE, if you choose them, but a TRUE medical facility using EVIDENCE BASED MEDICINE should NEVER advocate them as the SOLE source of recovery. It should only be mentioned as a compliment, and I'd like to see the facilities that do offer faith or abstinence based recovery as the ONLY recovery method 1.)lose their insurance funding, 2.)never receive one dime of state/federal funding, 3.)be held liable in civil court for malpractice, 4.)be held criminally liable and their owners go to prison for malpractice and FRAUD...

Those measures may sound extreme, but they are the only thing which will update treatment facilities to the 21st century, get them to stop hiring substance abusers with an online counseling certificate, and have them start advancing evidence based treatments, not a system some asshole developed in 1930...

[Honkey_Kong]

My entire point is that abstinence is not king, particularly with those dependent on opoids. My point is that treatment centers who only advocate abstinence based recovery should be put out of business, and relegated to the same fate as snake oil salesmen, witch doctors, and others who offer a solution which causes real harm. Listening to people from AA/NA, they sound cult like in their belief in their system which too often leads to great harm and death. My point is these support groups are FINE, if you choose them, but a TRUE medical facility using EVIDENCE BASED MEDICINE should NEVER advocate them as the SOLE source of recovery. It should only be mentioned as a compliment, and I'd like to see the facilities that do offer faith or abstinence based recovery as the ONLY recovery method 1.)lose their insurance funding, 2.)never receive one dime of state/federal funding, 3.)be held liable in civil court for malpractice, 4.)be held criminally liable and their owners go to prison for malpractice and FRAUD...

Those measures may sound extreme, but they are the only thing which will update treatment facilities to the 21st century, get them to stop hiring substance abusers with an online counseling certificate, and have them start advancing evidence based treatments, not a system some asshole developed in 1930...

I can vouch on everything you said about those treatment facilities. In 1997, I was a teen that was looking for fun. Drinking and experimenting with a certain organic substance that isn't even illegal in some states now. Anyways, so I got caught by my parents and they paniced. In their panic, they ran in to some of these "treatment" people in the area who convinced them that I was sick and needed their help. So they got my parents to send me to this rehab in Socal.

So I'm there for a month. First thing they do before they put you on the floor with all the other "patients" is they have some psychiatrist evaluate you and you take an MMPI test. No matter how mild-mannered you are or what you feel your mental health is. They'll claim you're bi-polar, clinically depressed, schitzophrenic or a variety of other conditions (whether you suffer from them or not). Then will load you up on drugs that will put you in a daze and give you side-effects that are usually worse than the conditions they're claiming to treat. I remember being really high all the time in there.

After that, the entire treatment consists of group therapy sessions that resemble NA meetings. I don't recall a single individual counseling session. Nor do I remember anybody trying to help anyone's behaviour. It's just everybody attacking the guy who's turn is it to share about his "problems." And in the end, nobody received any "solution."

The only thing that happens in those places is the patients develop strong bonds with one another and when they leave, you get to see them return to their ways and in several cases, you get to watch them self-destruct their way to a grave.

All of this at the tune of $30k+ a person for a 30 day treatment.

[jesse4466]

This discussion isn't about people with serious medical issues, I stated multiple times that strong drugs like Xanax should be saved as a last case scenario. Not once did I say that seriously Ill people should abstain from drugs completely. I'm referring to drug addiction, not medication. AA and NA is where millions have come to clean themselves up, you clearly have no understanding of how it works and helps people. The fact you're a medical professional and wouldn't recommend these meetings to people with drug addictions is appalling.

The conversation went way over this angry dudes head. He sounds miserable and needs a new career. he obviously hates his. I can picture his sad stupid face in a hospital, one of those miserable male nurses that usually do more harm then good just by being negative.

[thegodfather]

The conversation went way over this angry dudes head. He sounds miserable and needs a new career. he obviously hates his. I can picture his sad stupid face in a hospital, one of those miserable male nurses that usually do more harm then good just by being negative.

LOL!...I'm actually extremely upbeat, and very tolerant. What I do not have any tolerance for is snake oil salesmen profiting off of the misery of people who fool them into believing their solution is somehow ordained by medicine. My profession had nothing to do with treating substance abusers, but I'm very familiar with these people who masquerade as 'counselors' or 'therapists' that have a BA, and some shitty ass online certificate. These people have no business treating a farm animal, let alone another human being. So yea, THAT makes me angry, but in general in life, I"m extremely happy, and the other members here know this about me...Enjoy your evening

[Khazima]

I can vouch on everything you said about those treatment facilities. In 1997, I was a teen that was looking for fun. Drinking and experimenting with a certain organic substance that isn't even illegal in some states now. Anyways, so I got caught by my parents and they paniced. In their panic, they ran in to some of these "treatment" people in the area who convinced them that I was sick and needed their help. So they got my parents to send me to this rehab in Socal.

So I'm there for a month. First thing they do before they put you on the floor with all the other "patients" is they have some psychiatrist evaluate you and you take an MMPI test. No matter how mild-mannered you are or what you feel your mental health is. They'll claim you're bi-polar, clinically depressed, schitzophrenic or a variety of other conditions (whether you suffer from them or not). Then will load you up on drugs that will put you in a daze and give you side-effects that are usually worse than the conditions they're claiming to treat. I remember being really high all the time in there.

After that, the entire treatment consists of group therapy sessions that resemble NA meetings. I don't recall a single individual counseling session. Nor do I remember anybody trying to help anyone's behaviour. It's just everybody attacking the guy who's turn is it to share about his "problems." And in the end, nobody received any "solution."

The only thing that happens in those places is the patients develop strong bonds with one another and when they leave, you get to see them return to their ways and in several cases, you get to watch them self-destruct their way to a grave.

All of this at the tune of $30k+ a person for a 30 day treatment.

That's the shit I'm talking about that I absolutely despise, the use of drugs to treat the mildest problems, leading to people having much much worse issues. Yours is a perfect example, another is people being given Xanax to treat mild anxiety brought on from smoking pot, 'prescribed' Valium to help with alcohol withdrawals, given alcohol withdrawals can be extremely dangerous and do need to be treated with medication during a time of detox but as I said these drugs are being handed out like candy. Someone addicted to smoking weed needs abstinence, someone addicted to alcohol needs careful treatment in a time of detox.. Then abstinence. Abstinence can be achieved many different ways, for some maybe therapy and counselling works. For me (and millions of others) AA and NA worked.

I don't know which groups are publicly shaming people and attacking people for their wrong doing but I've never been to a group where that has been the case, you get up the front (if you want) to tell your story, everyone shuts their mouth and listens, then claps and the next person speaks. Then afterwards individuals may come up and talk to you about similar times they went through, I never experienced feeling like I was being shamed or judged. It's a place to go and talk about your darkest times, and recall why you don't want to go back, and be supported by people who have been through the same situations.

[< <Samson> >]

It's kind of the answer I am getting from my woman. "You're treating one thing with another drug" & why do you think that you need to be on something all the time.

It's hard - now at least. My sober days are far and few in between before getting on the Xanax.

So, yeah - it's all good. Feeling fine so far, straight dropped the dose to .25mg for one night. Then just decided to not take it last night. I was beat from working all day & felt tired as fvck. Prepared for the worst, but did my best to keep my mind off of it. Straight fell asleep - woke up 3x within 7 and a half hour. But, just because I drank almost a half a gallon before bed. Woke up to take a piss & just dropped straight asleep. Woke up at 6:30 all freaked out that I only got a little a over 5:5 hours of sleep. Next thing you know, I look at the clock and it's 8:08. So, I seem to be okay - it's just very difficult to keep shit from running through my mind while trying to fall asleep.

But, doing so as soon as now is better than later.


I am surprised this shit went this well so far. I have been on Xanax for a few months now.

[Khazima]

It's kind of the answer I am getting from my woman. "You're treating one thing with another drug" & why do you think that you need to be on something all the time.

It's hard - now at least. My sober days are far and few in between before getting on the Xanax.

So, yeah - it's all good. Feeling fine so far, straight dropped the dose to .25mg for one night. Then just decided to not take it last night. I was beat from working all day & felt tired as fvck. Prepared for the worst, but did my best to keep my mind off of it. Straight fell asleep - woke up 3x within 7 and a half hour. But, just because I drank almost a half a gallon before bed. Woke up to take a piss & just dropped straight asleep. Woke up at 6:30 all freaked out that I only got a little a over 5:5 hours of sleep. Next thing you know, I look at the clock and it's 8:08. So, I seem to be okay - it's just very difficult to keep shit from running through my mind while trying to fall asleep.

But, doing so as soon as now is better than later.


I am surprised this shit went this well so far. I have been on Xanax for a few months now.

That's GREAT news man consider yourself really lucky haha. I never really had sleep issues besides racing thoughts, but once I had used Xanax for 2-3 weeks I'd need at least half a bar to sleep through the night, usually I'd wake up around 2-3am to take another half and go back to sleep.

Being sober and having no drugs to fall back on is really difficult, even now I fall back on the gym, or food. But atleast those two things aren't making me do things completely out of my character.

[thegodfather]

It's kind of the answer I am getting from my woman. "You're treating one thing with another drug" & why do you think that you need to be on something all the time.

It's hard - now at least. My sober days are far and few in between before getting on the Xanax.

So, yeah - it's all good. Feeling fine so far, straight dropped the dose to .25mg for one night. Then just decided to not take it last night. I was beat from working all day & felt tired as fvck. Prepared for the worst, but did my best to keep my mind off of it. Straight fell asleep - woke up 3x within 7 and a half hour. But, just because I drank almost a half a gallon before bed. Woke up to take a piss & just dropped straight asleep. Woke up at 6:30 all freaked out that I only got a little a over 5:5 hours of sleep. Next thing you know, I look at the clock and it's 8:08. So, I seem to be okay - it's just very difficult to keep shit from running through my mind while trying to fall asleep.

But, doing so as soon as now is better than later.


I am surprised this shit went this well so far. I have been on Xanax for a few months now.

Keep in mind it will take about 72-80 hours for active metabolites to clear your system, so if you're going to get some side effects, it may be quite a delayed onset. I'm not trying to psych you out, just be prepared for it is all. You could take .25 every other day, and increase the gaps between dosing, as a way to let yourself down easier. Look up the typical metabolite deletion times for the various benzos.

[Bonaparte]

Keep in mind it will take about 72-80 hours for active metabolites to clear your system, so if you're going to get some side effects, it may be quite a delayed onset. I'm not trying to psych you out, just be prepared for it is all. You could take .25 every other day, and increase the gaps between dosing, as a way to let yourself down easier. Look up the typical metabolite deletion times for the various benzos.

This. I know a guy who tried to quit benzos cold turkey. He ended up having a seizure on Thanksgiving in front of the whole family and was taken to the ER. Don't be that guy. Play it safe and taper off properly.

[< <Samson> >]

The way I'm looking at this after last night is "if I fall asleep & stay asleep or fall back asleep" I'm fine

If I reach a point where I need it, I'll take it - but, last night did me solid. Yet, the odd part is when I got very tired I felt like I already took it. At least it's odd to me. . . . Just don't like the idea of needing a mind altering med to be okay.

We'll see - I have pretty damn good self control. Still riding on a TRT sized dose & not planning to cycle until I feel like I reached a point of it being safe again. Get some BW in a month or so & go from there. I feel just fine, no other odd shit to report to myself.

I seem to be winning my battle with gyno onset by my last attempt at tren e. The self designed treatment of that shit seemed to be actually working. And after the last round I will never take another stab with tren e.


No easy answers in this shit or other life impacting shit, that's for sure. But, I somehow feel so much better as the days pass without being on something. Still no draw at all to get high on anything. Before, I couldn't really face reality without something altering it.

[thegodfather]

The way I'm looking at this after last night is "if I fall asleep & stay asleep or fall back asleep" I'm fine

If I reach a point where I need it, I'll take it - but, last night did me solid. Yet, the odd part is when I got very tired I felt like I already took it. At least it's odd to me. . . . Just don't like the idea of needing a mind altering med to be okay.

We'll see - I have pretty damn good self control. Still riding on a TRT sized dose & not planning to cycle until I feel like I reached a point of it being safe again. Get some BW in a month or so & go from there. I feel just fine, no other odd shit to report to myself.

I seem to be winning my battle with gyno onset by my last attempt at tren e. The self designed treatment of that shit seemed to be actually working. And after the last round I will never take another stab with tren e.


No easy answers in this shit or other life impacting shit, that's for sure. But, I somehow feel so much better as the days pass without being on something. Still no draw at all to get high on anything. Before, I couldn't really face reality without something altering it.

Keep in mind if you're <1 year, you can still experience Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome..These symptoms can manifest themselves in a number of ways. The evidence based treatments and research seem to indicate the brain fully returns to normal within about 18-24 months of abstinence. At least you have something to look forward to.