The Bible is a work of Fiction

[Tock]

That woman... never hearing the word of God... (the only living God) will be judged as an infant.... an innocent....

And you know this, how?
Got a bible scripture for your opinion? Or didja just "spontaneously create" this new rule?

--Tock

[PTbyJason]

How's this for starters . . .

Verse 22:
Can you identify what prophet had said this? Or was this phrase just tossed in to make the story sound good? (I think you're really gonna have to dig on this one--I'm so mean)

Verse 23:
Supposedly the kid would be called Immanuel. And what name did he go by? Jesus.
Kinda reminds me of an auto repair shop on the Mexican side of town:
"Jesus' Immanual Transmission Repair"
(just kidding)

--Tock

You are actually fun to debate with. lol

I will have to dig on this one. Give me some time.

[Farmer]

Really enjoying this debate Tock, you are speaking for myself as well...probably many others. I don't remember what post number but, you said something to the likeing of "I don't believe in 'heresay' reports, I do some research" that is EXACTLY how I feel and that is why I question this so much. I don't take anything at face value. Keep the debate GOING!!

Peace

Farmer

[Tock]

You are actually fun to debate with. lol

I will have to dig on this one. Give me some time.

Yah, well, you may laugh now, but let's see about later . . . .
lol . . .
--Tock

[Tock]

Really enjoying this debate Tock, you are speaking for myself as well...probably many others. I don't remember what post number but, you said something to the likeing of "I don't believe in 'heresay' reports, I do some research" that is EXACTLY how I feel and that is why I question this so much. I don't take anything at face value. Keep the debate GOING!!

Peace

Farmer

Glad to oblige . . .
My guess is that by the time this is over, both (or all) sides of this debate will have learned something . . . It's my hope, anyway. No use in debating something if all you do is scare the opposition away--someone's got to stay behind to pay for the beer and pizza afterwards . . .
Thanks again, and Take Care (and notes, if you like) . . .
--Tock

[PTbyJason]

3) Yah, well, the thing I'm thinking about is that not everything that we don't have an explanation for is necessarily the Work of God. I'm not sayin' it isn't, not sayin' it is. I need to be persuaded one way or the other; I don't rely on heresay reports, as there's lots of BS floating around out there on all sorts of things . . . eyewitness reports of UFO abductions, guys claiming they can do a 600 lb bench press, claims that George Bush and Queen Elizabeth are both shape-shifting lizardpeople from the center of the Earth. If I beleived everything that people told me was true, I'd be nuts.
Instead, I check things out . . . sometimes I'll accept the findings of trustworthy sources (folks with established track records and reputations for accuracy), but that's about it. Even that stuff, I'll verify if I get a chance.
Not that I don't trust you, mon ami, but as I don't really know you apart from this board, and as the vast majority of fundamentalists I've encountered have been lacking a gear or two in the Reality Gearbox, I have to say I'm not prepared to take your word for this thing. It sounds good, but unless the case is examined by some experts, I'll have to classify this as a "maybe, maybe not."

6) Cool.

--Tock

But this statement. hmmm, ok.....

So at least I got a maybe, or maybe not out of you. If you had still written me off, well I would have almost given up hope on you. If you want character witnesses on me, talk to anyone. Pheedno has met me, tryingtogetbig (don't hold that one against me ), old employers, ex-girlfriends even, keymastur, etc...there are a lot of guys on the board who have met me. But, then again you probably can't totally trust them either, because you haven't met them. And if you just met me, I could be putting on an act for you, so that wouldn't prove anything. You could talk to my dad, but then again you don't know him either, so he could be lieing to you. You can make excuse after excuse to discredit a person. You can look back over the years that I have been here and read every single post that I have ever made, talked to every single person that I have ever talked to, and read every single PM that I have ever sent. I would say I have a pretty good reputation for being an honest, straight-forward guy. You don't have to believe it if you don't want to, but that is up to you and I can't change that.

As far as independent medical experts evaluating the case. Tock, his doctors could not cure him. They tried. Doctors, surgeons, physical therapists, etc... They all failed. They wanted to cure him, he wanted them to cure him. These doctors did not say, "Go to your church and get healed so we can get the credit." He had pain for 10 years, then it was gone. IT WAS GONE Kind of simple. You don't need a doctor to tell you that you don't have any pain any more. It's pretty simple to figure out when you can't walk due to excrutiating pain, and when you can walk around pain free. That's a no-brainer bro.

And you know the funniest thing about this bro. My dad getting better after all of those years was not the most amazing thing I have seen or gone through because of the power of God. But because you don't believe that, you wouldn't believe the more amazing things. You see Tock, your whole life you set out to disprove God. You have been reading every book out there to prove that God doesn't exist and He isn't who the Bible says He is. But you have never given Him a chance to prove Himself to you. You have never allowed Him to make an argument for His existence. When you only choose to accept one side of the argument, you will never have a chance to make a fair decision on what is right or wrong. I have been where you are and tried to write off God before, but I was also willing to give Him a chance to prove Himself to me. In fact I asked Him to show me His presence in my life. Not surprising to me now, He did exactly that. At the time I could barely believe it, but after tons of answered prayers in the most unlikely of situations, I no longer doubt that the Lord is my God.

Tock all I'm asking you to do is give God a chance to prove Himself to you. The worst thing you could possibly lose is pride if you are wrong. Absolutely nothing more. Just for once, give Him a chance.

[Cycleon]

How's this for starters . . .

Verse 22:
Can you identify what prophet had said this? Or was this phrase just tossed in to make the story sound good? (I think you're really gonna have to dig on this one--I'm so mean)

Verse 23:
Supposedly the kid would be called Immanuel. And what name did he go by? Jesus.
Kinda reminds me of an auto repair shop on the Mexican side of town:
"Jesus' Immanual Transmission Repair"
(just kidding)

--Tock

That is simple - Isaiah - there is a lot of Mesianic prophecy in there

[PTbyJason]

That is simple - Isaiah - there is a lot of Mesianic prophecy in there

Whew, less work for me. Thanks Cyc. lol

[Tock]

1) So at least I got a maybe, or maybe not out of you.

2) If you want character witnesses on me, talk to anyone.

3) You could talk to my dad, but then again you don't know him either, so he could be lieing to you. You can make excuse after excuse to discredit a person.

4) As far as independent medical experts evaluating the case. Tock, his doctors could not cure him. They tried. Doctors, surgeons, physical therapists, etc... They all failed. They wanted to cure him, he wanted them to cure him. These doctors did not say, "Go to your church and get healed so we can get the credit." He had pain for 10 years, then it was gone. IT WAS GONE Kind of simple.

5) And you know the funniest thing about this bro. My dad getting better after all of those years was not the most amazing thing I have seen or gone through because of the power of God. But because you don't believe that, you wouldn't believe the more amazing things.

6) You see Tock, your whole life you set out to disprove God.

7) But you have never given Him a chance to prove Himself to you. You have never allowed Him to make an argument for His existence.

8) When you only choose to accept one side of the argument, you will never have a chance to make a fair decision on what is right or wrong.

9) I have been where you are and tried to write off God before, but I was also willing to give Him a chance to prove Himself to me. In fact I asked Him to show me His presence in my life. Not surprising to me now, He did exactly that. At the time I could barely believe it, but after tons of answered prayers in the most unlikely of situations, I no longer doubt that the Lord is my God.

10) Tock all I'm asking you to do is give God a chance to prove Himself to you. The worst thing you could possibly lose is pride if you are wrong. Absolutely nothing more. Just for once, give Him a chance.

1) Congratulations! No one else has ever gotten that far . . .
2) I'm sure your character is beyond reproach. It's not really much of an issue.
3) . . . or with anyone else, for that matter.
Well, maybe it does factor in a bit, but, no, I don't think you or anyone is out to deliberately pull the wool over my eyes.
4) What IS a BIG issue here is "How did your dad get healed?" There's a phenomenon known as "Spontaneous Healing," and from what I understand, although it is rare, diseases sometimes do just disappear.
There's a few books on the topic at Amazon, like
http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASI...669196-3001144
and evidently it is not something that happens only to Christians.
So, I'm thinking that maybe your dad had one of these, and since he had been the subject of frequent prayers, that his healing occurred so close to a "laying on of hands" session may, or may not, have anything to do with it.
What I'm saying is that I don't know why your dad is better. Was it God? Natural spontaneous healing? Maybe some nerves in his back that transmit pain died so they aren't sending pain signals any more. Who knows?

I'm glad you find comfort and reassurance in the event; any time religion can do this for people I think it's a good thing. But I still have my doubts. Honest doubts. I know that according to Christian Theology, honest doubts is enough to get ya sent to Eternal ****ation, but IMHO, I'd much rather retain my intellectual freedom and doubts than to pretend I didn't have them, and bow to some deity (who may not even exist) to not offend his obsessive need to control people. That sort of deity, IMHO, is a demon unworthy of worship, not a loving god.

5) Perhaps so.

6) Um, now you're getting into overstatements. I do lots of other things, too. Write music, get into mischeif, go to the gym, try to get laid, and more.

7) I'm sure he would not need a global positioning system to find me. If the Scientologists can track me for 20 years, so can he. And he's free to tell me what he wants me to know, any time, and any way he wants to. As I pointed out in someone else's post, "He could have done this, or maybe he could have done that." If he really wants to tell me something, I'm sure he could figure something out. So far I haven't heard anything I couldn't write off as erotic moaning from the next apartment . . .

8) True. But I don't see myself in that sort of position. I'm open to all sorts of stuff, listen to all sorts of stuff, read all sorts of stuff. But as Ronald Reagan once said (regarding the Soviet Union), "Trust, but Verify." So far, there's not much religious stuff that got past the "Verify" stage.

9) One thing about making that initial prayer . . .
If, by the rules of fundamentalist theology, the prayer is to be effective, the one who prays MUST be sincere and BELEIVE. But if the "prayer-er" (for want of a better word) does not beleive, then there really is no point in making the initial prayer.
BUT, if the prayer-er who does not beleive deceives himself into thinking that he does, indeed, beleive, then (a) his mind has already lost touch with reality in direct proportion to his self-deception, and (b) a mind so deluded is pre-conditioned to accept any sort of thing as an indication of divine response to his prayer, and may just as well mistake an anchovie-pizza induced dream as the divine response as a genuine reply, or no reply at all.

So . . . in light of this, what would you suggest?



10) Once upon a time I was a "saved" fundamentalist. Taught Adult Sunday School. Got the kids dancing in their Sunday School, too (I'll bet you didnt' know that the words to "Jesus loves me this I know for the bible tells me so" fit perfectly to the music from Brahms Hungarian Dance #5--well, now you do!)
At least, I considered myself as such. I had lots of questions about everything, and was usually encouraged to suppress my doubts if I couldn't find a reasonable answer, because "I should exercise my faith." Over time, I saw that all those spots where I had been suppressing my doubts were actually "Achilles Heels," vulnerable spots where anyone looking to debunk the Christian Faith should check into first. Over time, I asked myself, "Now, am I exercising godly faith, or am I just a sucker?" The answer was obvious, but hard to accept, and one thing followed another, and here I am tonight. And you.
Perhaps Fate has brought us together, and I am the one to give you the keys to the locks on your chains of theological bondage, and lead you into the sunshine of intellectual freedom and to The Truth about the Only Life You Will Ever Have, and to encourage you to make the most of it while you can. Or not. It sounds good, though, eh?

Take care,
--Tock

[Tock]

22] All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: [23] "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" --which means, "God with us."[/color]
[/color]

That is simple - Isaiah - there is a lot of Mesianic prophecy in there

Isaiah, ok, but where? Got a verse?
Can you find it with a concordance or something?
--Tock

[PTbyJason]

1) Congratulations! No one else has ever gotten that far . . .
2) I'm sure your character is beyond reproach. It's not really much of an issue.
3) . . . or with anyone else, for that matter.
Well, maybe it does factor in a bit, but, no, I don't think you or anyone is out to deliberately pull the wool over my eyes.
4) What IS a BIG issue here is "How did your dad get healed?" There's a phenomenon known as "Spontaneous Healing," and from what I understand, although it is rare, diseases sometimes do just disappear.
There's a few books on the topic at Amazon, like
http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASI...669196-3001144
and evidently it is not something that happens only to Christians.
So, I'm thinking that maybe your dad had one of these, and since he had been the subject of frequent prayers, that his healing occurred so close to a "laying on of hands" session may, or may not, have anything to do with it.
What I'm saying is that I don't know why your dad is better. Was it God? Natural spontaneous healing? Maybe some nerves in his back that transmit pain died so they aren't sending pain signals any more. Who knows?

I'm glad you find comfort and reassurance in the event; any time religion can do this for people I think it's a good thing. But I still have my doubts. Honest doubts. I know that according to Christian Theology, honest doubts is enough to get ya sent to Eternal ****ation, but IMHO, I'd much rather retain my intellectual freedom and doubts than to pretend I didn't have them, and bow to some deity (who may not even exist) to not offend his obsessive need to control people. That sort of deity, IMHO, is a demon unworthy of worship, not a loving god.

5) Perhaps so.

6) Um, now you're getting into overstatements. I do lots of other things, too. Write music, get into mischeif, go to the gym, try to get laid, and more.

7) I'm sure he would not need a global positioning system to find me. If the Scientologists can track me for 20 years, so can he. And he's free to tell me what he wants me to know, any time, and any way he wants to. As I pointed out in someone else's post, "He could have done this, or maybe he could have done that." If he really wants to tell me something, I'm sure he could figure something out. So far I haven't heard anything I couldn't write off as erotic moaning from the next apartment . . .

8) True. But I don't see myself in that sort of position. I'm open to all sorts of stuff, listen to all sorts of stuff, read all sorts of stuff. But as Ronald Reagan once said (regarding the Soviet Union), "Trust, but Verify." So far, there's not much religious stuff that got past the "Verify" stage.

9) One thing about making that initial prayer . . .
If, by the rules of fundamentalist theology, the prayer is to be effective, the one who prays MUST be sincere and BELEIVE. But if the "prayer-er" (for want of a better word) does not beleive, then there really is no point in making the initial prayer.
BUT, if the prayer-er who does not beleive deceives himself into thinking that he does, indeed, beleive, then (a) his mind has already lost touch with reality in direct proportion to his self-deception, and (b) a mind so deluded is pre-conditioned to accept any sort of thing as an indication of divine response to his prayer, and may just as well mistake an anchovie-pizza induced dream as the divine response as a genuine reply, or no reply at all.

So . . . in light of this, what would you suggest?



10) Once upon a time I was a "saved" fundamentalist. Taught Adult Sunday School. Got the kids dancing in their Sunday School, too (I'll bet you didnt' know that the words to "Jesus loves me this I know for the bible tells me so" fit perfectly to the music from Brahms Hungarian Dance #5--well, now you do!)
At least, I considered myself as such. I had lots of questions about everything, and was usually encouraged to suppress my doubts if I couldn't find a reasonable answer, because "I should exercise my faith." Over time, I saw that all those spots where I had been suppressing my doubts were actually "Achilles Heels," vulnerable spots where anyone looking to debunk the Christian Faith should check into first. Over time, I asked myself, "Now, am I exercising godly faith, or am I just a sucker?" The answer was obvious, but hard to accept, and one thing followed another, and here I am tonight. And you.
Perhaps Fate has brought us together, and I am the one to give you the keys to the locks on your chains of theological bondage, and lead you into the sunshine of intellectual freedom and to The Truth about the Only Life You Will Ever Have, and to encourage you to make the most of it while you can. Or not. It sounds good, though, eh?

Take care,
--Tock

About time....I was having withdrawals not being able to argue about this. lol

4.) We have different opinions on what we believe. My closest explanation, which I had already mentioned were the nerves dying. That is the only possible thing it could be if you really stretch your imagination and have to have an excuse of some type. I even told my dad that, I believed it was because of this. But after all of my research, my mind is pretty much made up. Not that I can't be convinced of something otherwise, but because my strength in my faith is where it is today. But one problem, God does not have an "obsessive need to control people." Otherwise He would have yanked you up already and forced you to worship Him. He let's us make our own choices. He wants us to worship Him, but he doesn't force it. He created us, I think He has the right to want something in return. Sounds fair to me.

6.) LOL, sorry bro. You know what I meant though.

7.) LOL, you are on a roll tonight. Just keep your eyes and ear open bro. You have to keep them open if you want to hear or see Him.

8.) I understand that. We are intelligent human beings and we can be expected to be this way.

9.) Well, I will tell you that there are examples of people on this board that have seen things happen by praying prayers when they had no faith that God still answered. And if they continue to spend time praying, they will get even more answers. I understand and believe that you have to have faith in God for Him to answer your prayers, but I also believe that God reaches out to people and establishes faith in them when they ask for it.

10.) Didn't know that about Jesus Loves Me, but thanks for the tip. LOL So what is fate anyway? Really, I mean think about it. Maybe we were brought together to talk about this for your benefit and mine. I'm learning more and more in this thread every day. You are constantly challenging my beliefs and my faith has been increasing steadily, and now you are actually opening up to the possibility that God could have healed my dad. Fate makes no sense when you really think about it. Unless of course, "fate" was controlled by someone like God. Sure, whatever you want to call it, "fate" sounds good to me.

[Cycleon]

22] All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: [23] "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" --which means, "God with us."[/color]
[/color]

Isaiah, ok, but where? Got a verse?
Can you find it with a concordance or something?
--Tock

tock, tock, tock - the whole point was to get you to dig around in there a little - might even do you good! but to help you out, you might want to start in the 7th chapter for that and then segue to the 50s chapters for more good stuff

[Tock]

tock, tock, tock - the whole point was to get you to dig around in there a little - might even do you good! but to help you out, you might want to start in the 7th chapter for that and then segue to the 50s chapters for more good stuff

I see . . . lol . . .
So you couldn't find it either, huh? Well, I'm not surprised because it's not anywhere in the Old Testament. I thought I'd have some fun and see how long I could get you to look for something that didn't exist . . .

So much for that prophecy, then . . . wanna play again?
--Tock

[Tock]

9.) Well, I will tell you that there are examples of people on this board that have seen things happen by praying prayers when they had no faith that God still answered. And if they continue to spend time praying, they will get even more answers. I understand and believe that you have to have faith in God for Him to answer your prayers, but I also believe that God reaches out to people and establishes faith in them when they ask for it.

10.) Didn't know that about Jesus Loves Me, but thanks for the tip. LOL So what is fate anyway? Really, I mean think about it. Maybe we were brought together to talk about this for your benefit and mine. I'm learning more and more in this thread every day. You are constantly challenging my beliefs and my faith has been increasing steadily, and now you are actually opening up to the possibility that God could have healed my dad. Fate makes no sense when you really think about it. Unless of course, "fate" was controlled by someone like God. Sure, whatever you want to call it, "fate" sounds good to me.

9) Well, I'll tell you what. Maybe you and Cycleon could consider taking advantage of Matthew 19:18 (Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.) and ask your god to give me a sign or something you think might persuade my rational-inclined mind. No need to tell me what you have planned, if I notice anything unusual, I'll let you know.
Here's your opportunity to demonstrate that at least ONE part of the Bible is worth the paper it's written on.
Are you game?

10) That bit about Fate was just an expression . . . Check out determinism, and you'll find what place Fate has in such a philosophy. But, that's neither here nor there . . . I'm here and you're there, and that's about the size of it . . .

It's late,
Take care,
--Tock Out . . .

[PTbyJason]

I see . . . lol . . .
So you couldn't find it either, huh? Well, I'm not surprised because it's not anywhere in the Old Testament. I thought I'd have some fun and see how long I could get you to look for something that didn't exist . . .

So much for that prophecy, then . . . wanna play again?
--Tock

So Tock, after all of those prophecies that I listed that came true, you found one thing that you are wondering where it came from? Bro, you haven't even stepped to bat yet, much less played the game. So do you want to start trying to prove the prophecies wrong, or do you just not want to play anymore?

[PTbyJason]

9) Well, I'll tell you what. Maybe you and Cycleon could consider taking advantage of Matthew 19:18 (Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.) and ask your god to give me a sign or something you think might persuade my rational-inclined mind. No need to tell me what you have planned, if I notice anything unusual, I'll let you know.
Here's your opportunity to demonstrate that at least ONE part of the Bible is worth the paper it's written on.
Are you game?

10) That bit about Fate was just an expression . . . Check out determinism, and you'll find what place Fate has in such a philosophy. But, that's neither here nor there . . . I'm here and you're there, and that's about the size of it . . .

It's late,
Take care,
--Tock Out . . .

9. I've already started praying for you.

[PTbyJason]

Jason, check out the dead sea scrolls... they offer a credible, conflicting account of the gospels.

Alright, I've done my research on this and my book is in my car, down the road, so I can't get exacts. I will give you an overview from memory and if you want specifics, I will get them for you.

The Dead Sea Scrolls were found I guess about 55 years ago near the dead sea by this guy that threw a rock and heard it hit the "jar" type of thing. Inside he found a scroll and before long hundreds of bits of scrolls were found in various caves in the area. What you will find is sections of the New Testament and Old Testament on the scrolls.

Now the interesting thing is that these scrolls, even though some are around 2,000 years old (Carbon dated) they match up almost identical to the current Bible that we have today. The parts that do not line up perfectly do not change the meaning of the phrases, they are just worded a tad bit different, which is where the "conflicting accounts of the Bible" statement comes from. Nothing more than the difference between "The red ball" and "The ball is red". Very insignificant.

Now there were some documents in Cave 4 that were the big issue. There were several different people that were working to translate these documents, and I believe there were thousands of bits of material to work with. The scroll had decomposed a lot over time and there were some of these pieces that if they were touched, would practically fall into pieces. They divided the translation out to a small team of translators, but it was a lot more work then what they could handle.

Well the rumor was that the catholic church was holding some documents that would discredit the Bible. The thing is, it wasn't the catholics that made up the entire team and the catholic church had scrolls from other things discovered from other caves as well. So it wasn't really unusual for them to possess things that no one had seen yet. There was tons to go through, not enough people to translate, and they had a history of holding some documents until it was time for them to be translated.

Well one of the translators came out and made some statements about what was in these scrolls that had not been released yet. The problem was, he hadn't seen them either. He had made up the contents of them. The rest of his team called him on it and he later came back out and retracted his statements. And to let you know I looked at both sides, as well as take this a little further. There is debate, if there is even any mention of The Messiah, Christ, or Jesus anywhere in these ancient scrolls. It never specifically mentions Him in any of the verses, but some argue that some of the statements imply Him. So if anything, it can be debated that Jesus was made up over time and put in the Bible, but not that He had an affair.

Today you can walk into your local bookstore and purchase the completed translation of the Dead Sea Scrolls. You will see everything written out and you will even see the parts where the material was decomposed and could not be translated. It will even tell you the discrepencies between the Bible, as we know it today, and the Dead Sea scrolls that were written 2,000 years ago.

There are some that feel there is second part of a map that will show them the location of more scrolls. And there is also another set of scrolls that were left behind by someone as they were fleeing from soldiers, I think it was, that no one has been able to go back and get yet. So this story may still be continued in time, but for now that should answer your question.

[Tock]

So Tock, after all of those prophecies that I listed that came true, you found one thing that you are wondering where it came from? Bro, you haven't even stepped to bat yet, much less played the game. So do you want to start trying to prove the prophecies wrong, or do you just not want to play anymore?

Oh, I want to play allright. I just thought it funny that the first one happened to be so obvious . . . ha ha ha . . .

Let's continue onward . . . So far, the score for this "Are the Prophecies True?" game is

Tock Bible
...1......0....


--Tock

[Tock]

9. I've already started praying for you.

Nope, according to the text, two people gotta do it. With only one, you're wasting your time . . .
-Tock

[PTbyJason]

Oh, I want to play allright. I just thought it funny that the first one happened to be so obvious . . . ha ha ha . . .

Let's continue onward . . . So far, the score for this "Are the Prophecies True?" game is

Tock Bible
...1......0....


--Tock

OOPS, might want to update that score. I read through Isaiah this morning and found something rather interesting.

Isaiah 8:8 "and sweep on into Judah, swirling over it, passing through it and reaching up to the neck. Its outspread wings will cover the breadth of the land, O Immanuel"

Now obviously how you choose to interpret this verse will determine if you feel it was truly a prophesy or not. I think it just scrored one for the Bible because the verses leading up to it discuss things that the Lord is going to do. We all have our own opinions and interpretations and you might disagree, but you are going to have to try harder than that to earn points.

New score

Tock Bible
...0......1...

[PTbyJason]

Nope, according to the text, two people gotta do it. With only one, you're wasting your time . . .
-Tock

People back then didn't work out, so if I am as big as 2 people, from their time, would that count as 2 instead of 1?

[Tock]

People back then didn't work out, so if I am as big as 2 people, from their time, would that count as 2 instead of 1?

I dunno . . . try it and see . . . if nothing happens, then the answer is no.
Oy vey . . .
--Tock

[Cycleon]

I see . . . lol . . .
So you couldn't find it either, huh? Well, I'm not surprised because it's not anywhere in the Old Testament. I thought I'd have some fun and see how long I could get you to look for something that didn't exist . . .

So much for that prophecy, then . . . wanna play again?
--Tock

Tock - I said it that way because the point is to actually get you to READ the bible for yourself - though no doubt you saw through my nefarious plot and wanted no part of actually reading the bible lest conviction fall upon you - but be brave, your love of self determined hedonism is secure enough to read a little soul searching scripture isnt it? - if you are going to have a debate with me, you are going to need more than your impressive but still quite limited intellect - at least come armed if you want to win the argument you must try to do it within the bible not without - same as I do with muslims, I refute Islam from the Koran itself

Therefore the LORD himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son and will call his name Immanuel. (Isaiah 7:14)

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and for ever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this. (Isaiah 9:6-7)

[Tock]

Tock - I said it that way because the point is to actually get you to READ the bible for yourself - though no doubt you saw through my nefarious plot and wanted no part of actually reading the bible lest conviction fall upon you - but be brave, your love of self determined hedonism is secure enough to read a little soul searching scripture isnt it? - if you are going to have a debate with me, you are going to need more than your impressive but still quite limited intellect - at least come armed if you want to win the argument you must try to do it within the bible not without - same as I do with muslims, I refute Islam from the Koran itself

Therefore the LORD himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son and will call his name Immanuel. (Isaiah 7:14)

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and for ever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this. (Isaiah 9:6-7)

You are absolutely correct on that one . . . yep, re-program the Score-A-Matic . . . .
My bad -- I got that verse confused with another one that falls to that criticism. We'll get to it eventually . . .
Sheesh . . . If I had just looked at the printout of your post, I would have seen that reference . . . well, let that be a lesson for me . . . lol . . .

You wanna pick another verse, or should I? Or maybe we could start at the first one and just plunge from one to the next? Makes no nevermind to me . . .

One thing, though, in a month or two I'm gonna have to cut my time on the Inet way way down while I get my barber shop open. I'll be moving about the same time, and will probably be without a land line, so that'll be that . . .
But don't weep and wail and gnash your teeth in the outer darkness, because I'll be back a few months after everything is up and running. Can't bear to keep away; this board is almost as good as sex! lol . . .

--Tock (who can't b'leeve he popped that obvious blunder--oh well)

[Tock]

1) Tock - I said it that way because the point is to actually get you to READ the bible for yourself -

2) though no doubt you saw through my nefarious plot and wanted no part of actually reading the bible lest conviction fall upon you

3) - but be brave, your love of self determined hedonism

4) is secure enough to read a little soul searching scripture isnt it?

5) - if you are going to have a debate with me, you are going to need more than your impressive but still quite limited intellect - at least come armed if you want to win the argument you must try to do it within the bible not without - same as I do with muslims, I refute Islam from the Koran itself

6) Therefore the LORD himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son and will call his name Immanuel. (Isaiah 7:14)

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and for ever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this. (Isaiah 9:6-7)

1) I've read it before, it's nothing new.
2) Oh yah, I'm sure that's it . . .
3) Um, that would be "deterministic hedonism" . . .
4) As they say in Las Vegas, "You bet!"
5) I'm glad to see someone is beating back the Muslim Infidels with analytical examinations of their Scripture. Wasting time on one religious text is more than what I like to do, much less two of them.
6) Yah, I completely boogered on that one. I shoulda read the printout of your post; woulda saved me the embarrassment of prematurely blowing my own horn.
Well, rest assured that won't happen again . . . There is another New Testament verse along similar lines that ain't in the Old Testament. I'm sure we'll encounter it along our way . . .

Let the fun continue!

--Tock

[Cycleon]

well, as long as its your own horn you are blowing Tock, I feel we are really making progress here

good luck on the barbershop btw!

[Billy_Bathgate]

Haha what a thread. Long one...

My thoughts....

1) Bible has no proof that its non-fiction. No scientifical proof, of course there is the living Christian proof though but thats not what I mean. Creation vs Evolution. Thats a great one there.

2) Historically speaking, the Upanishads are older than the Bible. That wouldnt make sence would it? Maybe the Hindu's just wrote it down before the Jews did though, that is possible

3)Whats up with the Mormons? Why do they think there is stuff missing from the Bible if its so accurate? Why do some people argue about specific Hebrew-Greek-English translations (ie Moses having horns vs rays of lighting coming down with the commandments)? Leads me to believe that maybe it was transcripted correctly, but maybe not translated correctly. On that note, there are so many demoniations that obviously translation has a ton to do with it. That would lead me to believe God intends us to interpret our religions for ourselfs.

4) Why are other religions wrong? A christian says a buddhist is wrong, but yet vice versa. Doesnt anyone find anything silly going on? How can you prove what is yet to be proven? Actually, Christianiy, is VERY similar from Hinduism and Buddhism in certain ascpects. If you can step back and look at things objectively you can see it.


My point is, I dont really care if its fiction or not. Sure Im religious. I believe in a higher being. I dont think we popped out of complete empty space, I have trouble fathmoning that space reaches infinity, etc etc.

I was forced into Christianity. Had to goto a private school for 9 years, and Ill tell ya this was like Nazi Christianity. By the book strick as can be. Point is, a part of me just dislikes Christians. Not for that reason, but for this. So many people I know, to me, are ignorant. IT seems to be most Christians, again that I know of, are Christians becuase they were born into it, they were told its right, popularity, or geographical convienience. Does anyone think if the United States were predominately Buddhists and Christianity was more sparce than a Native American, that everyone would still be Christians anyways.... I sure doubt it.

The problem I have, again with people I know, cant step back from it and look at the big picture. Most Christians I know have no idea what Dharma is, or who Krishina was, or what Nirvana is etc. I notice a bit of arogance evolve and I dont know, what I call black sheep syndrome I guess.

Hell, I figure if God intended us to have so much controversiery over the Bible and different religions, it was for a purpose. That purpose was to educate ourselve and wisely follow our hearts. Not to follow blindly becuase of the above reasons I already mentioned. If he wanted us to know Christianity was the one and only way, I think there would be absolute proof and not all these questions. And dont tell me Satan is who Brahman, Ala, Budda, etc are all....

If I was to consider myself a religion. I guess I would be a Zen Buddhist/Christian. LMAO how do you like that? In seriousness, from the religoins I have studied in somewhat depth, it is the overall what I feel formyself is right. I know God knows this and as far as I concerned I feel much better inside than when I did as a blind Christian and didnt no dick about anything else.

Wanna know what I believe, theres a God. We were ultimately created from something. There is life after this world, wether it is in Heaven or reincarnation I guess we will all find out eventually. I believe Jesus died on the cross. I believe he was a man of the most highest spirituality (Son of God for christians, Nirvana for Buddhists..mean about the same thing in a way) and was sacrafised for mankind. I dont believe in following a bunch of hypcrites to church though. Its bad around here with that, I find it sacreligious and it doesnt do anything for me. I do belief the spirit is a very important and powerful part of us all. I do strive for a closer and stronger interspiritual relationship. I do believe in Karma.

Kinda a mix I guess....Ive never been happier though, so it suite me, which is what I think religion is all about anywyas. I dont think there is one righter than another. Think of it as a language to God. Do you think he would care if it was English, French, Spanish, Ebonics, or pig latin...no Its that you speak to him.

Now, dont all the Christians or anyone else come down on me. I am talking about the Christians I know locally!!! I dont know any of you like that so maybe none of you are like that, and Im glad.

The final on point topic, I think the Bible is a great book. 85% of my own moral code is founded on that. I dont agree with the way many people take some of the things (literal vs metaphorical). I do believe the men that wrote it were of higher spirituality as well. But, there is not 100% proof or guarantee of its origins.

[Farmer]

Ever been to North Dakota????

It has the largest single deposit of "Dinasour Fossils"

they are all layed out in a fashion that shows that they were "washed up and laid out from a flood"... says so on the placque that is there...

Here is one for ya...

The largest living thing on the earth is the "Barrier Reef" it grows at about the same rate each year. If you do the math... it shows that it has been around About 5000 years.......


The Moon..... if it is the same age as the earth??? there is dust on the moon.. it gets there by the spacial drift... which is mesurable..

When the Apolo mission first went there.. do you remember that the landing legs-pods were large saucer devices??? (i know you do.. you're old enough) the reason they were like that was that if the moon was about the same age as the earth... 1,000,000 years.... they estimated that the surface would have 16-32 feet of dust on it.. when they got there ... the average depth... 3"... using the same calculation of age for the moon... 6,000 years... tops..

I could go on.. but again...... You just insist on living in ignorance...

You do know that the world is round don't you...............

I'm sorry...

I'm back had to pray for forgivness... and i prayed for you again..

Earth is much older than 1million years..Lucy which is the oldest "human ancestor" was found in Ethiopia and they have Potassium/Argon dated the earth crust where the bones were pulled to over 3 million years old..

Just had to throw that bit of inormation in...check out this link as well..very interesting..

http://www.wilderdom.com/evolution/L...ldPictures.htm

Peace

Farmer

P.S.
This is turning into a great discussion..

[Cycleon]

Frankly I am of the opinion that the earth is older than 1 million years - I firmly believe in Creation but I also do not see how that precludes and evolutionary process of growth

[Billy_Bathgate]

Frankly I am of the opinion that the earth is older than 1 million years - I firmly believe in Creation but I also do not see how that precludes and evolutionary process of growth

The simple explanation that I have came across to that is this.

Genesis states the world was created in 7 days. The problem is taking that literal. Who are we to say what 1 day is to God. The Bible does say 1 second to us can be like a 1000 years to God. So, imagine that "one day" as it is written, metaphorically is meaning 1 day to God, which could be a million, or billion years.

Seems very logical to me for explaining dinosours not existing with modern man.

[Cycleon]

exactly - the reality is that in the origional language it says that there was a "morning" and and "evening" - certainly not in the way we think of them as sunrise and set - the origional language denotes a beginning time and and ending time of a distinct period of time - day has the same relevance - in several places in the old testament the same word is used to refer to an epoch of time. Thus God had certain distinct periods with a beginning and an end wherein He accomplished His intention with this one we are in being the last.

there is also the idea of allegorical that is true as well - in one prophecy the 70 "weeks" was a literal 70years but the 7 weeks that were to follow were 7 time periods that were not necessarily based on calenders but rather on kingdoms.

[Tock]

Seems very logical to me for explaining dinosours not existing with modern man.

Yah, but leaders in the Creation Research (at the Institute for Creation Research--they're on the web) business say they did . . . supposedly Adam and Eve lived about 6000 years ago, and they had dinosaurs living with 'em.
Crazy, but true. And they have to "proof," and lots of it, to back up thier allegations.
-Tock

[Cycleon]

I agree with some of what ICR states but just because they are Christian I do not agree with all - I simply do not hold with Ussherian dating nor do I think it has a single thing to do with Christianity to do so.

Besides, God, being what He is, is much more likely to have allowed a glorious creation to have evolved (with His assistance at just the critical points) over a time frame that seems enormous to us but is nothing to Him - with this being the final stage of the drama that He has prepared before the beginning of time as we understand it. I thiink that is much more glorifying to God than the idea that he sort of slammed all this together in 10,000 years - I mean, what is time to Him? whats the rush? all of it is an expression of His glory, even if the creatures and objects do not get that, He does it for Himself

[PTbyJason]

It would take a whole book to reply to everything you asked, so let me get specific questions from you and maybe myself or someone else can answer them one by one.

1) Bible has no proof that its non-fiction. No scientifical proof, of course there is the living Christian proof though but thats not what I mean. Creation vs Evolution. Thats a great one there.

What proof would you like? Are we talking about New Testament or Old Testament? Do you want archaeology to back it up, ancient documents, other historical records besides the Bible, etc...? What events from the Bible do you want backed up?

2) Historically speaking, the Upanishads are older than the Bible. That wouldnt make sence would it? Maybe the Hindu's just wrote it down before the Jews did though, that is possible

I will admit that I am not familiar with the Upanishads. However, is there historical evidence of any type, that shows what they wrote down or believed in and any prophecies that they made that actually came true? The Bible lists tons of various prophecies about Jesus and the world that have or will come true.

3)Whats up with the Mormons? Why do they think there is stuff missing from the Bible if its so accurate? Why do some people argue about specific Hebrew-Greek-English translations (ie Moses having horns vs rays of lighting coming down with the commandments)? Leads me to believe that maybe it was transcripted correctly, but maybe not translated correctly. On that note, there are so many demoniations that obviously translation has a ton to do with it. That would lead me to believe God intends us to interpret our religions for ourselfs.

I personally see many things wrong with how Mormons came to be. The way in which "documents" discovered as well as the past of the people who discovered this new religion. The translation problem is one that exist because words that are Hebrew or Greek don't always correspond with English. One word in Hebrew could have 3 different interpretations in English or no translation into English. So a phrase could be translated more than one way just because of the way the languages are set up. An example would be "wine", I believe in the original Greek language wine was wine, however in English wine can be fermented or unfermented. Now when we are talking about the fermented vs. unfermented in English we could be talking about wine vs. grape juice. So that is why you see discrepencies in the translations.

4) Why are other religions wrong? A christian says a buddhist is wrong, but yet vice versa. Doesnt anyone find anything silly going on? How can you prove what is yet to be proven? Actually, Christianiy, is VERY similar from Hinduism and Buddhism in certain ascpects. If you can step back and look at things objectively you can see it.

I can go into as much detail as you would like on this, but for starters the time period that the events that were written down in each religion were signaficantly different which would have the potential to cause buddhist to be very off on the accuracy of their documents. You will find that Christianity was written down within just a few decades after the events took place and you will also find more copies of this evidence. For some reason buddhist waited much longer after the events took place (2 or 3 centuries I believe) before they began writing anything down. The longer you wait, the more likely things are bound to be off. You will also find fewer historical documents backing up buddhist. I have a feeling I could find some contradictions for you as well on what buddhist believe when compared to historical evidence. I may have to dive into that a little more now. Seems to be interesting.

I think you can read through this thread and see that most of us on here don't think things should be rammed down each other's throats. There are a lot of "Christians" out there that don't always follow God's will, and do force it on people or kids. Find what you believe, but constantly challenge that faith. When you have questions, find out the answers. No matter what you believe, I think trying to develop a stronger spiritual stength is always important. And if you don't challenge that on a consistent basis, you aren't improving on it. I'll be more than happy to find the answers to any specific questions you have if will help you increase your spirituality. I constantly have similar questions that you posted that pop in my head at times. As soon as they do, I go out and start buying books. You can't take the author of various books as the Gospel, but you can read the evidence and draw your own conclusion about things. So far everything has just strengthened my faith even more. There is more evidence of any type for Christianity than anything else I have ever discovered. I've explored different religions and have even been to a Mormon church because I was curious. I had a few close friends who were Mormon that invited me to come with them, so I did. But then I took everything in that I heard in the service. I went and read up on the origins of the religion some more, and based on everything I read and experienced, I came to my conclusions about it. Many people that are atheist think that Christians are just believing by blind faith. And that is true to a certain point because we can't comprehend everything the Bible says. However, we all have times of doubts and disbelief, and at that point we have to challenge those beliefs. Everything that I have challenged and taken the time to research, showed further proof of the Bible, God, and Jesus. There is nothing wrong with doubting the Word of God. We all go through that. But when you have doubts you challenge those doubts and find out the truth behind it all. I would say that every week (maybe every other week at times) I challenge something new in the Bible. Let's face it, the more you challenge and research something, the deeper understanding, knowledge, and faith you can put in something, right? How much time do you think atheist spend to try to find something to disprove the Bible? The more time atheists would spend challenging and researching the Bible, the more they would realize that the Bible has a lot more scientific proof than they ever realized.

[Tock]

I agree with some of what ICR states but just because they are Christian I do not agree with all - I simply do not hold with Ussherian dating nor do I think it has a single thing to do with Christianity to do so.

I would pay good money to watch a debate on this between you and the ICI people. Bet it wouldn't take more than 30 minutes of standing your ground before they'd denouce you for being a heretic . . .
--Tock

[Tock]

Originally Posted by Billy_Bathgate

1) Bible has no proof that its non-fiction. No scientifical proof, of course there is the living Christian proof though but thats not what I mean. Creation vs Evolution. Thats a great one there.

What proof would you like? Are we talking about New Testament or Old Testament? Do you want archaeology to back it up, ancient documents, other historical records besides the Bible, etc...? What events from the Bible do you want backed up?

.

Well . . . I had posted a challenge to the Exodus story, noting that there is a conspicious lack of archeological verification (actually, none) to the Bible's account for (a) over half of Egypt's population leaving, (b) the utter destruction of the Egyptian Army, (c) the peculiar loss of the first born of every family in Egypt.

Back that one up, if you can . . .

--Tock

[Cycleon]

I would pay good money to watch a debate on this between you and the ICI people. Bet it wouldn't take more than 30 minutes of standing your ground before they'd denouce you for being a heretic . . .
--Tock

Fortunately I do not answer to them but rather the Master we both serve - again, while they are interesting, abiet almost tangential intellectual pursuits, they have little to do with my (or their) daily walk with God, nor my (or their) eternal future.

[Tock]

Fortunately I do not answer to them but rather the Master we both serve - again, while they are interesting, abiet almost tangential intellectual pursuits, they have little to do with my (or their) daily walk with God, nor my (or their) eternal future.

Yah, but it would be interesting, nonetheless . . .
-Tock

[Billy_Bathgate]

Jason,

proof, as in you know 100% scientifical that there is a God exactly like the Bible states. 100% proof everything happened like it did. 100% proof of everything. The point is, its not proovable, nor dis-proovable. Well, it is proovable, just hasnt happened yet and dont think it will, at least in this life.

The upanishads, I believe through carbon dating alone has shown older copies than that found of the Bible, like I said though, maybe it was written down much later or originals got destroyed etc. However, from many anthropological views, Christianity stemmed from Hinduism. Certainly if you study it deeply, both is and Buddhism (which are very close related) you can see some astonishing similarities. I cant say I know near as much about either as I do Christianity though, and Im not a historian so my own opinion is just that of a normal guy. Im not sure what I think of it either.

Other religions, yes were not written down near as fast. Id have to look it my notes from class, but it was a long period of time that is estimated.

From what I know so far, there isnt much prophecy in the other religions as Christianity. There basis is more towards spirituality, and less towards physical earth if you will.

Another interesting point I found, again Anthropologist believe that Islam will be the new "Christianity" of the world, meaning the most popular widespread in the next century.

[PTbyJason]

Well . . . I had posted a challenge to the Exodus story, noting that there is a conspicious lack of archeological verification (actually, none) to the Bible's account for (a) over half of Egypt's population leaving, (b) the utter destruction of the Egyptian Army, (c) the peculiar loss of the first born of every family in Egypt.

Back that one up, if you can . . .

--Tock

Give me a few days before I hit on this, if that's ok. I have some research that I have to do on something else first, and I will come back to this one. I'll start gathering materials, but it will take me a good week to put it all together once I start.