The Bible is a work of Fiction

[50%Natural]

i have been waiting for archaeologists to unearth new literature or artifacts that validate the trickier parts of the bible before i take any stance.

http://www.space.com/scienceastronom..._010823-1.html

Not saying it is, but a lot of people believe that mount ararat in Turkey is the resting place of noah's ark. It makes sense since in genesis moses' 3 sons, or the 3 men responsible for all the world's races went in seperate directions. One south=blacks, one east=asians, indians and one west=whites Should this really be noah's ark, I would believe the rest of the bible to be true. However, the turkey government knows this and won't allow a soul on that mountain to search

[PTbyJason]

what about the gospels that say jesus had a romantic relationship with mary magdeline?

Fine, show them to me. Give me historical information and time period that is was written in. I've heard the allegations, but I do not know the author or how long afterwards it was written. Give me some info and I will do the research and present it all to you. They are not in the Bible, but I will humor you if you do some leg work for me.

The reason I state that the Bible is the most historically accurate book from that time period is due to the fact that there were more transcripts from this book than any other book from that history, the fewest discrepencies between the different versions that were found, and it was written closest to the time period of the actual events happening. Many of the other religions that are mentioned in this thread were written 300 - 500 years after the events took place and have few transcripts.

Just an example here. Plato is one such person in history. Information about Plato was written long after he was gone and has very few transcripts about him, but I haven't heard anyone question the existance of Plato or what he did. Things said about Plato are taken as facts. If you use the same basis to judge those facts as you do the Bible, Plato would be easy to write off as never existing. The Bible is much more easily proven than anything you could ever say about Plato.

[50%Natural]

My apologies on my delays in replying. I am still really busy at work, but I will reply to some of this now, some of it later today, and I am sure much more tomorrow. I forgot my Bible this morning, so I am going to have to rely on memory as opposed to being able to back it up with definite facts. So pardon me if I am incorrect on some of my statements today.

I believe the first books were written by Moses. You state that because we aren't able to prove every single thing, then it must all be false. I have a question for you, if I can prove one thing that was recently discovered, does that make everything true to you? Realize that the happenings are many centuries ago and there are things still being discovered today. I just saw a television program on an explanation of the parting of the Red Sea. They are beginning to find evidence of certain towns that were mentioned in the old testament that they did not have proof of long ago. The believe they know where Noah's Ark is now as well. So does there have to be proof of every single thing in the Bible in order to make you believe it?

Ok, here's a question for you. I will take a story from the New Testament as an example. Judas betrayed Jesus and he committed suicide. Now I walk along just as he did it and I found him hanging from a tree by a noose that he built. I told the story that he hung himself and committed suicide. 5 hours later the tree collapses and he hits some rocks below. His guts gush out and he is obviously dead. You come along, see where he hit the rocks and describe him as having commited suicide and fallen off the cliff. So who was right? Was it I right or were you right? We both described what we saw. Neither of us lied. But if two people heard our story, we sound like we are conflicting with each other. So you see, the gospels don't conflict with one another, they merely piece together the entire story.

see above, good analogy though Jason

[PTbyJason]

see above, good analogy though Jason

I have to give credit to my pastor for that. He opened my eyes on that very subject just recently and it suddenly made sense to me. I use to think the same thing as tock did, but only because I didn't understand.

It's one of those things that i know is true, but I can't always explain it, but everyday it slowly starts making more sense. The knowledge is out there. Seek and ye shall find.

[Valmont]

Is is sinful to watch crossing over with John Edwards. First of all, the guy is getting some huge guns on him so that is inspirational..

[tryingtogetbig]

When they go forcing their beliefs down your throat & spew threats at you about how you're gonna burn in Hell, unless you save yourself. Even worse, some of them come to your door to force the Gospel on you...in your own friggin' home!!!

Again, more specifically worded this time..."How does believing in a higher power that makes ME a better person, and a better person to mankind, hurt ME?"

peace,

ttgb

[PTbyJason]

I realize there is a huge misconception here that people have. It seems that some people may think that just because someone is a "Christian" they are perfect and don't make mistakes. That may include coming to your home to witness to you, even though you don't want it. They feel they are doing the right thing by trying to save you, where as you may take it as an insult. A preacher may preach a certain way that you may find offensive, but you can't demonize the belief in God based on actions of certain people. Believing in God is believing in God. And I know that those who believe in God are representatives of God, but it doesn't make them perfect.

Everyone that becomes a Christian goes through a lot of stages of development to become more like Christ (ultimate goal, but never completely attainable). They will struggle and stumble along the way. I definitely have gone through my struggles and there are times in my life that I was a horrible person even though I was a "Christian". Don't use an excuse of particular things that people do, as a reason to write off God. Only He is perfect, not the rest of us, but it doesn't stop us from trying more and more everyday to be like Him.

[daem]

Everyone that becomes a Christian goes through a lot of stages of development to become more like Christ (ultimate goal, but never completely attainable). They will struggle and stumble along the way. I definitely have gone through my struggles and there are times in my life that I was a horrible person even though I was a "Christian". Don't use an excuse of particular things that people do, as a reason to write off God. Only He is perfect, not the rest of us, but it doesn't stop us from trying more and more everyday to be like Him.

i agree with that. we are all prone to temptations and evils that are present in the world and at times we falter. learning from these compromises of morals and trying not to repeat them is very important for our own intellectual and spiritual growth.

we can condition ourselves to become desensitized to injustices, wrongdoings, and evils by living a life that is totally self-centered. it is when we become desensitized that we begin to participate in these injustices and evils and eventually they become a part of who we are. when we have others in mind, our actions take a different shape because we may not act in a way that compromises ourselves as a rational human being.

i think it would very irrational for a person to claim that the only way to be a servant for others is by subscribing to Christianity, however if i lined up a row of Christians and a row of athiests it wouldn't surprise me if the Christians were more satisfied with their lives or less willing to act outside of their beliefs.

we all find fulfillment in different things, however i would rather find fulfillment in an institution that is built on love and charity.

[tryingtogetbig]

1.)Let me ask you, does believing in God alone make you a better person?

Nothing alone in itself makes me who I am. But believing in a higher power definitely makes me respect life more and a better person overall.

Is it possible to be a better person to mankind if you choose not to practice a religion?

Anything is possible. And again, please remember that I am talking about believing in an existence of a higher power, not neceesarily organized religion as a whole.

peace,

ttgb

[tryingtogetbig]

... I still tell them "I'm Catholic", in hopes of convincing them to leave me alone. WRONG. They (Jehovah's Witness, Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and even a pastor/preacher for a Baptist Church, all told me that Catholics will burn in Hell. Come again??? How the hell (no pun intended) does following the same teachings, believing in the same God, but viewing it from a slightly different approach wind up sending me to Hell??? And you're saying these people are doing good? How can I not take that as an insult? So my entire family (since they're Catholic) are all going to burn in Hell? Sounds a little screwed up, if you ask me...

Our views and experiences with organized religion are very similar. Unfortanutley these efforts turn many people away (including myself at times) from the bigger picture.

peace,

ttgb

[Tock]

Moved from the "Passion" thread
Posted by groverman1


Brother Tock for someone who doesnt believe the Bible how can you prove that its so fake and ficticious.
. . . s n i p . . .
--------------------------

Um, the way things work is like this: Someone walks up to you and says, "There are cows on the dark side of the moon." You can either beleive him, or ask for evidence, saying, "How do you know?" If he can't substantiate his claim, you can write him off as a nut.

The general flow of events is
1) Someone makes a claim.
2) If the claim is challenged, and cannot be substantiated, then
3) The claim is considered invalid.

So, if someone says, "Some guy 2000 years ago raised a man from the dead," it's only reasonable to challenge such an unusual claim and ask for substantiation. If the only proof is the text of the Bible, well, that ain't much substantiation. The Bible is only heresay evidence until demonstrated otherwise. If the only proof is "I know it's true because my Preacher says it's true, and he's a really good guy and I trust what he says," again, that is not substantiation, that is only one other man's opinion, as he had not witnessed the event himself, and likely does not have any corroborating proof of the event.

To make it short and sweet, "It is the responsibility of the one who makes the claim to provide substantiation."

You ask "How can I prove that it is fake?"
Well, in the flow of logic, I don't have to prove that it's fake, any more than you would have to prove that there are not any cows on the dark side of the moon, should someone tell you such a thing. Again, it is the responsibility of the one making the claim to prove that it is true.

So, unless you can prove that the Bible is what you claim that it is, all you have is an opinion, or worse, adopted someone else's opinion, that is unsubstantiated.


Now . . . in the first post of this thread, I made a few assertions regarding the veracity of the Bible. I supported them with a few facts. Perhaps you would like to check on my facts (in fact, I insist on it--no need to take what I say as fact), see if there is anything to my assertions. Tell me what you discover.

Then, you could start asking the people who taught you what you know about the Bible where they got their information, and then find out where *they* got their information, and so on and so on until you have a reliable eyewitness account.
Yah, buying religious beleifs is a lot like buying a used car. If you don't ask a lot of questions beforehand and have it checked out by an impartial mechanic, you're probably not going to get a good deal.

So read my first post on this thread, go do some research, and tell me how you know that what you've been told is true.

--Tock

[50%Natural]

tock, it's called faith plain and simple. To believe in the unknowing is what allows people to believe in a god, some can just feel him being there, yet not explain it. You trying to break it down like it's a scientific problem is really a waste of time. You can not express your intellegence with this topic because we don't know what is out there. An easy way for me to just know something is out there is pretty easy for myself. from the big bang, to a germ, to blah blah blah, we have man and all the species of animals. How, in the hell, did this all happen? By chance? It is easier to believe in an all knowing than it is to believe that all this here is from chance. No need to try to break it down and get us to admire your intellegence and disprove religion, because on a topic like this, you won't have followers.

[monstercojones]

Jason, check out the dead sea scrolls... they offer a credible, conflicting account of the gospels.

[PTbyJason]

tock, I want you to reply to my first post on this thread which was a response to your original post. I gave you a valid explanation and you dismissed it without trying to explain it. With the explanation I gave of suicide, is that not a valid reason for conflicting stories. If you would like me to take every conflicting thing that you find in the Bible and explain it, I will. But if I explain it all, will that change your mind?

[PTbyJason]

Jason, check out the dead sea scrolls... they offer a credible, conflicting account of the gospels.

Well I kind of wanted more specifics than that, but I will go with it. Let me do some research for the dead sea scrolls and then against it and see what I can come up with. Give me some time and possibly this coming up weekend, but I will do my best to explain it. Is that alright?

[Tock]

1) Not saying it is, but a lot of people believe that mount ararat in Turkey is the resting place of noah's ark.

2) It makes sense since in genesis moses' 3 sons, or the 3 men responsible for all the world's races went in seperate directions. One south=blacks, one east=asians, indians and one west=whites

3) Should this really be noah's ark, I would believe the rest of the bible to be true. However, the turkey government knows this and won't allow a soul on that mountain to search

1) Mere speculation. "A lot of people" beleive lots of crazy stuff, like Scientology, or that the planet is really flat, or that the Queen of England is a shape-shifting reptile (yes, they really do!). It doesn't make it any more true if one person or "a lot of people" or a billion people beleive it.

2) . . . according to a book. A book without corroborating evidence.

3) There's quite a few reasons why the Biblical account of Noah's Ark is impossible.
a) Tally up the total number of square feet the boat could have possibly had . . . it works out to about two and a half acres.
b) Tally up the total number of animals, birds, reptiles, amphibians, and insects carried on the boat -- between 2 or 7 of each species. There are some 20,000 known species of mammals alone; lots more of everything else, especially insects (900,000 currently identified species).
c) Tally up the amount of food and fresh water it would take to feed all those animals for the time they were in the Ark -- keep in mind they were shut up inside the Ark for a total of 14 months.

Two elephants alone need to eat at least 1000 lbs of hay every day and can go through several hundred gallons of water (I got my figures from the Dallas Zoo). Multiply 1 ton by the number of days in the Ark, and you get 420 tons of hay, and that's is just for two elephants. Consider you have to feed between 40,000 and 140,000 mammals (depending on how many are considered "clean" or "unclean"), jillions of birds, reptiles, and creepy crawly bugs. And do all this on two and a half acres of space on the boat.
. . . If you were to look at what happens to a back yard when you put just a couple of dogs or horses in it, you'll get an idea of why it is impossible to put that many animals on a boat the size mentioned in the Bible. It simply cannot be done. Even if you put them all through a hamburger grinder and packed them all in, it can't be done.

And then . . . you have the little question of, "If the Ark landed in the Middle East, and all the animals migrated from there,
a) How did the kangaroos manage to swim from South Asia to Australia?
b) Why are there no kangaroos currently living between the Middle East and Australia?
c) Why are there so many species found only in isolated spots all over the planet?

And then there's the question of, "What happened to all the fresh water fish when the salt water ocean covered the entire planet?" I'm sure you know what happens to fresh water fish when you put 'em in salt water--they die.


Again, the Noah's Ark story is absurd. Fine for kids to beleive, like Santa Claus, but adults need to be able to "grow up" and learn to deal with the real world. The next time a preacher tells you the story is fact, ask him How do you know that what you know is true?"

--Tock

[bornbad71]

I'm not going to read evey post in another thread about the bible or do u believe in GOD......it is a personally choice, some people think Jesus Christ was just a prophet and not the Son of GOD...then there are those that don't believe in the bible and say it is fiction, personally I don't want u to try and prove if it's fiction or not....all I know is there is a lot of hurt and anger in the world today, and people will turn to what they understand and believe in(for me that would be GOD the Father in Heaven).

I do have this one statement I would like to place before any here, if u don't believe in GOD or you think the bible is fiction, then there is nothing I can say or do to change your mind, it's a choice to believe...no one is forced......so for anyone that has never read the bible, the last book in the bible is Revolations, this book refers to the end of time and the events leading up to it....so my statement is this: WHAT IF YOU ARE WRONG!!!!!

I am not looking to debate this with anyone....I am simply posting(as are u if u posted) my opinion and what I feel and think....I do not think religion should be pushed on anyone, like I said before it is a choice.

[Tock]

Again, more specifically worded this time..."How does believing in a higher power that makes ME a better person, and a better person to mankind, hurt ME?"

peace,

ttgb

As long as the belief does not impair your ability to make rational decisions, no, it wouldn't hurt at all.
If the belief helps you through times of pain and sorrow, then I would say it becomes a benefit.
Usually, though, when two or more people get together and start an organization based on a particular belief, then things inevitably change from personal opinions to religious dogma.
--Tock

[tuna]

tock you have some very strong intelligent veiw points and seem to be a man of strong personal faith. And by that I mean faith in yourself. The confidence you have is admerable. Although I think you are a little hard and full on for people who have a religeon I know were you are coming from.
There is a god and there is an after life,

if there were not we would have been able to figure it out by now. The reason there are so many unanswerd questions is because we are not created with enough comprehsion to answer them. why would you leave a program out of a computer unless you didnt want the computer to make a simple analasys. We cant understand life or death because god didnt want us to living your life the way you are is faith in itself and im sure god will judge you a worthwile creation
in the after life

it is not really for us to say weather the bible is or isnt true .. It is for every man to make his own dessisions in the end we can only be the best of what we are and I belive that is all god requires

[PTbyJason]

Was this towards my post?

Sorry, I forgot to respond to this. It wasn't directed towards you. Something you said triggered a thought, but it wasn't directed toward anything you said. I did pull some of the things you said out, but not to start a debate about them. I'm sorry I didn't make that clear earlier.

[Tock]

i believe in a higher power.... i feel that atheism is equally as flawed as subscribing to any specific religion.

Consider the difference between
Moral and Amoral. One is associated with ethics, the other is without ethics.
Tonal and Atonal, as in music. One is centered around a definite note, the other is without a reference tone.
Political and Apolitical. One involves public affairs, the other is not.

The "A" in Atheism distinguishes it from Theism in the same way. The "A" acts as a "privitive," changes the word Theism (religious belief) to Atheism (lack of religious belief).

So, since an atheist is merely a person without any beliefs in any religious ideas (as are all infants, and many adults), there are no ideas which can be scrutinized and deemed "flawed."

Some folks are of the opinion that atheists "beleive there is no god." Nothing can be further from the truth. An atheist does not beleive there is no god, and atheist doesn't beleive in any god. Present a rational atheist with reasonable proof that there is (which has yet to be done) and he will be persuaded.
Subtle, but significant difference.

-Tock

[Tock]

1) Tock, I'm sure I'm wrong (a thinking man I've never claimed to be) but I was under the impression that the first three books were written by Moses.

2) wasn't there a write up in National Geographic a few years back were someone had found a lot of egyption artifacts at the bottom of the red sea? chariots and the like?

3) Speaking as a beliver, something I am but alas not a very good one, I can't say that everything in the Bible is 100%. I guess the one thing I can say I do have is Faith......blind faith that is......I, for sure, will not know if I was right or wrong until I'm no longer with the living. If I'm wrong then I guess I'll be a part of the great void.......but if I'm right, again I don't know that what I've done or believe will grant me access to heaven, I hope to be on the inside looking out. Personally I think Dogma plays a big part as well.

Mho.

1) Fundamentalists say Moses wrote the 1st 5 books. Biblical scholars say it is a compilation of four different documents, and when the Jewish tribes came together around 1200 BC or so, the preists combined the four into one single document, as it would have been much simpler to have one common set of holy writings to contend with instead of 4 different versions. Which explains why you see so much duplication in those books.

2) Maybe, I don't know. It wouldn't be at all strange to find Egyptian stuff out there anyway, since the Egyptian empire and its influence extended far out to the eastern areas. Someone travelling on official business could have got stuck or lost or whatever; possibly an occasional chariot may have been "borrowed" or sent as a gift, or whatever. But there's not been any discovery of the remains of an entire Egyptian army out there. Not that I've heard of, anyway. Not that anyone I know of has heard of, either.

3) Well, if your faith helps you through hard times and brings you comfort when you need it, you should probably keep it. On the other hand, if it becomes a crutch, and you rely on miracles to get you through your day, you've got problems, and would most likely be better off without it.
I suppose religion is like alcohol . . . Ok in small, occasional amounts. Too much, though, and you'll be acting crazy.

--Tock

[tryingtogetbig]

Like someone said above Tock...there are some things you just can't explain...but you still know that it is true for you.

Aheterosexual....Why are some people gay? There is no logic on why someone would prefer the same gender, it doesn't follow the logical course of nature. But yet, it does exist and people can't explain it. They have theories, but no hard core proof one way or the other.

I believe, and know in my heart, there is a something in this world more mighty and powerful than I...and some day I will have to settle up with that being. Granted, the logic doesn't add up for me, and I will probably always question many of the practices that are done in the name of the almighty...but I still believe.

Please don't anybody let this turn into a gay thread...just using it as an example.

peace,

ttgb

[Tock]

I cannot believe how much time is spent arguing about religion.

But then again-I can't make a post about something like peanut butter without being personally insulted by 20 people. but ohwell.lol

Godbless.

Actually, I think we're doing pretty good. No one's getting upset, no flames are burning, no one's integrity is being besmurched.

We're handling this topic that usually generates conflict like mature adults, and I think we all should congratulate ourselves on that. Yah, we're doing darn good.

As far as the peanut butter goes, well, you know how the "crunchy only" people have it in for the "Smooth" people . . . and vice versa. You oughta try talking to a dyed-in-the-wool "crunchy only" type about "Goober Grape." Man, those folks will just about shoot ya about stuff like that . . .

--Tock

[Devourer]

i really wish i had something to contribute to this thread seeing as i find this all very interesting...but im an idiot

[Tock]

1) Those of you that "don't believe"....what will you teach your children. The existence of a "higher power" is something that needs to be introduced to children at an early age, IF you are going to expose them to believing in God, of course.

2) Saying you will let them do their own research and find their own conclusions will certainly cause some scrutiny....what about those tragic things in life that happen and result in children/teens dieing at an early age, to begin with. Just a thought...more than one human has changed their mind and/or beliefs later in life after "seeing" more of what life has to give.

peace,

ttgb

1) I would never teach a child about a god who threatens them with eternal ****ation for failing to beleive and conform to a book of myths. That, IMHO, would come close to child abuse. I probably wouldn't teach him that there definitely are no gods, but I would say that I personally don't know of any.
I think, as the kid got older, I would take him around to different churches (gotta stop by the Pentecostals, for sure, and maybe the snake handlers) and mosques and synagoges and Hindu Temple (there's a nice one in Dallas) and so on. I'd know better than to visit the Scientologists, because once you're on their mailing list, it takes 20 years to get rid of 'em. Meanwhile they consider you to be "anti-scientologist." Yah, they're certifiable loonies.
I'd teach him what was in the Bible, give him a good grounding of what was in it.
Most important, I'd teach him the value of asking questions about what each religion said was true, and not settling for a half-ass answer. And to think for himself.
I'd take the approach the Unitarian Universalist church takes . . . they have no established doctrine . . . they encourage their members to share what they personally have discovered about God, but don't have much appetite for someone else's warmed-over dogma. (BTW, they have the smartest approach to money that I've seen in any church--the church members make up an annual budget, they all agree to pay according to what they earn, and then agree to pay their share each month. No tithes, no muss, no fuss. If you get laid off and can't, well, that's built into the budget, no it's no big deal. No sermons about tithing, giving, etc.
Yah, if I was gonna belong to a church, that's the one I'd join . . .

2) What do you mean, "It will cause some scrutiny?"
On the topic of teaching a kid about tragedy . . . well, I guess you have to be honest, and sensitive to the kid's emotions. If someone died, I'd explain that people are born, live a while, than die, it's natural, and it is sad to see a close friend die, and it's ok to cry. I wouldn't say that "Aunt Emma is in heaven with Jesus," because that would not be the truth. For a kid, I might characterize death as analogous to a kind of sleep; depends on the kid's age and what he understand. I'd assure him that mommy and daddy would be around for a long time to take care of him, and basically reassure him that everything, for him, is ok. As he got older, I'd show him what happens when people die . . . you bury 'em, and they rot, and they become fertilizer for plants. Get a second chance at life that way . . .
Yah, that would be about it.
--Tock

[Phillyboy1]

I do have this one statement I would like to place before any here, if u don't believe in GOD or you think the bible is fiction, then there is nothing I can say or do to change your mind, it's a choice to believe...no one is forced......so for anyone that has never read the bible, the last book in the bible is Revolations, this book refers to the end of time and the events leading up to it....so my statement is this: WHAT IF YOU ARE WRONG!!!!!

so you belive in god because you are scared that if you dont youll end up like the book says in revolations. you dont think god will see right threw your B.S. scheme and tell you to go pound sand? why would he want you a person who just belived because you were scared rather then a person who just questions but still goes threw life as a good person? one other question for ya, what do you think will happen to the muslims, hindus, buddists, when the seals are opened by the man on the white horse? do you think god will just say sorry should have listened to the jews and christians?

and i got another question for all you belivers, what do you think of cloning? if life is soo great, and god is sooo almighty, then how the hell could mear mortals make life in a test tube inside a little lab? if life was soo nuts and complicated dont you think we could never ever clone or any of that stuff?

[50%Natural]

1) Mere speculation. "A lot of people" beleive lots of crazy stuff, like Scientology, or that the planet is really flat, or that the Queen of England is a shape-shifting reptile (yes, they really do!). It doesn't make it any more true if one person or "a lot of people" or a billion people beleive it.

2) . . . according to a book. A book without corroborating evidence.

3) There's quite a few reasons why the Biblical account of Noah's Ark is impossible.
a) Tally up the total number of square feet the boat could have possibly had . . . it works out to about two and a half acres.
b) Tally up the total number of animals, birds, reptiles, amphibians, and insects carried on the boat -- between 2 or 7 of each species. There are some 20,000 known species of mammals alone; lots more of everything else, especially insects (900,000 currently identified species).
c) Tally up the amount of food and fresh water it would take to feed all those animals for the time they were in the Ark -- keep in mind they were shut up inside the Ark for a total of 14 months.

Two elephants alone need to eat at least 1000 lbs of hay every day and can go through several hundred gallons of water (I got my figures from the Dallas Zoo). Multiply 1 ton by the number of days in the Ark, and you get 420 tons of hay, and that's is just for two elephants. Consider you have to feed between 40,000 and 140,000 mammals (depending on how many are considered "clean" or "unclean"), jillions of birds, reptiles, and creepy crawly bugs. And do all this on two and a half acres of space on the boat.
. . . If you were to look at what happens to a back yard when you put just a couple of dogs or horses in it, you'll get an idea of why it is impossible to put that many animals on a boat the size mentioned in the Bible. It simply cannot be done. Even if you put them all through a hamburger grinder and packed them all in, it can't be done.

And then . . . you have the little question of, "If the Ark landed in the Middle East, and all the animals migrated from there,
a) How did the kangaroos manage to swim from South Asia to Australia?
b) Why are there no kangaroos currently living between the Middle East and Australia?
c) Why are there so many species found only in isolated spots all over the planet?

And then there's the question of, "What happened to all the fresh water fish when the salt water ocean covered the entire planet?" I'm sure you know what happens to fresh water fish when you put 'em in salt water--they die.


Again, the Noah's Ark story is absurd. Fine for kids to beleive, like Santa Claus, but adults need to be able to "grow up" and learn to deal with the real world. The next time a preacher tells you the story is fact, ask him How do you know that what you know is true?"

--Tock

Tock, yes you broke it down like you always do.
1) couldn't have said it any better, people do believe a lot of crazy stuff. Like anthropology, the big bang, and that hockey is worth watching . Crazy stuff, but hey, I aint judging. In my eyes, maybe not in others, it is crazy.
2) True, but that is faith once again. Faith in the unknown.
3) Also, it doesn't seem all that absurd. You do raise valid questions about the kangaroos. Exactly why Darwanism is so believable in that animals some how alter dna over time. But there are many unexplainable events that have occured. Where do viruses come from? They are unlike any other organism known. They only have a dna strand and no organelles. Where did that come from? You can't ask questions like that and then expect an honest answer. How, did earth end up where it did? It is in the perfect location that we aren't toasted, nor freezing. A little closer to the sun and our weather would be a desert wasteland, no water, or anything. A little further, and we would only have glaciers, no trees, so no atmosphere. Of course by little I mean a million miles but it seems too coincedence and perfect just for nothing to be involved in the creation.

Also, you asked about the salt water. Well, true, every fish, if it is in salt water, will die only if it was a fresh water fish to begin with. That is eaisly shown in nature. Take stripped bass. There is a lake in south carolina(I believe lake santee cooper) not for sure. Anyway, this lake was on the coastline and it's lake levels were determined by the tides. There were rice farmers along this lake and at certain times would loose their crops due to high tides. Well, the lake was brackish water, meaning half salt and half fresh and almost every species of fish in the area both salt and fresh could be found some where in the lake. Well, the army corps of engineres build a **** in the late 50's or early 60's to help out the rice farmers and trapped the stripped bass, orginally a salt water fish, in the newly found fresh water lake(fed by fresh water). Well, the fish thrived. It took a little while but as the level of salt diminished so the fish became adapted to fresh water. Because of that one lake, the entire country's major lakes are now stocked full of stripped bass. Also, a species of catfish thrived in the fresh water and is now found in every lake in the country. Some fish did not adapt to the new condition and died off, such as Darwin explains in his survival of the fittist(why can't I spell word? ) I read this in some "infisherman" when I was younger.
It can be done considering all the water was orginally salt water and through the process of evaporation, salt water fish would become affiliated with fresh water because of the rain. That of course doesn't prove the bible right but it answers your question.

[LuvMuhRoids]

Very very nice. You must have studied theology or philosphy. I like this analogy or interpretation. I agree with it.

OK moses...
here goes

imagine that you're one of 50,000 or so slaves. you get beaten, tortured, and worked to the bone everyday, busting your as s building giant headstones for some king that just persecutes you. there is no moral code, and no religion to speak of... besides the egyptian sun gods and such. the only authority you answer to is a whip. hell, if you scrrew up, they dont put you in jail... they take away your straw so it takes longer to make the bricks for the pyramids and makes them heavier.

its a rough life....


all of a sudden, for whatever reason.... you're released out into the desert.

what happens?

no police.

no army.

no king.

no moral code to speak of.

no religion.

those who murder, rape, pillage and steal the most and most efficiently are the ones getting ahead. there is no security... everything is in anarchy. moses looks around and sees this, and gets totally cheesed off that he cant take a nap without being afraid of getting his throat slit. so he climbs a mountain during a thunderstorm and chips out 10 rules that are perfect for society to function.

so he mosey's (no pun intended) down the mountain and gives them to the people. "here guys, i have this great set of morally responsible rules for you, listen to me" "F*CK YOU MOSES! We dont have to listen to you. What authority do you have?"

"Well, i dont have an army, or a police force, and i cant even claim that i will know if you violate these rules. But i have a god. and this god knows all, and if he sees you breaking these rules, he wont whip you. oh no. its much bigger than that. ever wondered what happens to you when you die? well, this god puts you in eternal paradise if you listen to my rules here. if you Fck up, well, you're going to be in alotttt of pain forever, you dumb mother Fockers. You don't believe me? did you see the lightning hit those trees up there? yea, that was him talking to me. thats how powerful he is. stupid yokels. I'm in charge now."

the logic here isnt too hard to follow... if the jews had continued to rape, pillage, murder and steal from each other, they simply would have consumed themselves and died out. these rules, along with a god to justify them, were essential to their survival.

we created god. and now he's outdated....

[Tock]

1) I believe the first books were written by Moses.
2) You state that because we aren't able to prove every single thing, then it must all be false.
3) I have a question for you, if I can prove one thing that was recently discovered, does that make everything true to you?
4) Realize that the happenings are many centuries ago and there are things still being discovered today.
5) I just saw a television program on an explanation of the parting of the Red Sea.
6) They are beginning to find evidence of certain towns that were mentioned in the old testament that they did not have proof of long ago.
7) They believe they know where Noah's Ark is now as well.
8) So does there have to be proof of every single thing in the Bible in order to make you believe it?

9) Ok, here's a question for you. I will take a story from the New Testament as an example. Judas betrayed Jesus and he committed suicide. Now I walk along just as he did it and I found him hanging from a tree by a noose that he built.
9a) I told the story that he hung himself and committed suicide. 5 hours later the tree collapses and he hits some rocks below. His guts gush out and he is obviously dead.
9b) You come along, see where he hit the rocks and describe him as having commited suicide and fallen off the cliff.
9c) So who was right? Was it I right or were you right?
9d) We both described what we saw. Neither of us lied. But if two people heard our story, we sound like we are conflicting with each other.
10) So you see, the gospels don't conflict with one another, they merely piece together the entire story.

1) Ok. Fundamentalists agree. Most scholars who spend their time studying this stuff have reason to beleive otherwise.

2) Did I say that? No, I don't think I did.
It is my opinion (shared by many) that if you cannot substantiate your claim, all you have is a story. If your claim is unusual, like someone rising from the dead, or flying up through the upper stratosphere and not dying from asphyxiation, then I'd consider you a nut.
If you have lots of outlandish and unsubstantiated claims, I'd say you were really nuts, and would keep my pets away from you.

3) Of course not.
You wouldn't get by with that offer on a math test ("Hey teach, if I get one problem right, will you assume all the others are right as well?"). It won't fly with me.
I might reconsider after a while, if you demonstrate that you have a pretty good accuracy rate. Ya gotta prove yourself first, though.

4) Ok.

5) Probably just another "it could have happened this way," or some other speculation. Call me when they have something figured out for sure.

6) That doesn't surprise me. There's lots of sand out there to hide stuff, and since the Israelis were writing their own history, it only makes sense they'd mention the names of their towns. Nothing special about that.

7) Who is "They?" People have been saying they've found the Ark or that they know where it is for centuries. Never have turned up anything. Besides, the Ark story is impossible . . . see my other post on this topic.

8) Once again, of course. As of now, there is not much substantiation for what the Bible says. There are, on the other hand, lots of things that are impossible, crazy, unspeakably cruel (yet approved by Jehovah) things in the Bible that it's only reasonable to conclude that it is a silly book. Death for Sabbath Breakers? Telling wives they can't talk in church, and that they have to wait until they get home to ask their husbands about what was going on at church? Nah, that's stuff's just loony. Raising people from the dead? Nah, most likely a story that got built up. Jesus ascending into Heaven, flying through the stratosphere without passing out? Nah, just another crazy story written by people who had no idea what a stratosphere was.
Just a story.

9) You're fine so far . . .
9a) Ok, so you're an eyewitness, you've told what you've seen.
9b) I wouldn never say something like that. I'd say, I saw a dead guy on the rocks.
9c) Ok, I think I see where you're going with this . . .
9d) With my revision of 9b, Ok . . .
10) You're saying that if different people tell what they've seen from different viewpoints, it provides a complete story of an event.
Ordinarily, yes, I suppose that could be true. But in the case where the written word is considered to be "Inerrant" and "perfect," you wouldn't have variations like whether or not there was an angel at the tomb on Sunday morning, who might have rolled away the stone at the tomb's opening.

See, what amuses me about fundamentalists is how they can zero in and grab a verse like Leviticus 18:22 and ruin millions of innocent people's lives with it, swearing "It says so in God's inerrant Word," then when asked to come up with one version of the Resurrection that does not contradict any part of the Bible, THEN they start making allowances for human error and variation in the texts.
Of course, one reason why there should be differences in the text is because they weren't written until at least 70 years after Jesus supposedly died. I daresay that if barely literate men tried to write a history of L. Ron Hubbard (founder of Scientology) 70 years after he died, the account would probably be full of errors and overinflated accounts of what he did and said. I'd be surprised if it wasn't jam packed full of tall tales.

Nah, there's just too many things wrong with all of the Bible for it to be taken seriously. Ya, there's a few good things in it, and if you ignore most of it (the violence, Jehovah's approval of mass murdering women and children, threats of eternal ****ation, etc) and give it a humanistic patina, it becomes bearable.

Gosh, I'm tired . . . this is enough of this for today . . .
You have more for later, eh?
Ok . . .
--Tock

[PurePower]

If you all would open your eyes you would see that Jesus is trying to talk to you right here, right now.

[spywizard]

Actually, the bible has been proven to be the most acurate book, with the least deviation throughout history... with less than .01 deviation in copying throughtout... when compared to the scrolls.........


Sometimes the only thing that can be done with a child that refuses to accept the truth... is to pray for mercy...........unfortunetly....

well.. i still have hope for those that are lost....................

[PurePower]

Yes...I pray every night to those who are "lost"

[bermich]

Just an example here. Plato is one such person in history. Information about Plato was written long after he was gone and has very few transcripts about him, but I haven't heard anyone question the existance of Plato or what he did. Things said about Plato are taken as facts. If you use the same basis to judge those facts as you do the Bible, Plato would be easy to write off as never existing. The Bible is much more easily proven than anything you could ever say about Plato.

Here is my outlook on this. Good religious thread btw.
Comparing Plato to Jesus and moses and such. I dont think Plato has referances to anything out of the ordinary such as "parting the red sea" changing water to wine, a table full of fish, healing the blind by touch, etc.
Platos accounts for science and discovery. Not mythological magic and seeing ghosts and such. Everything Plato is known for can BE PROVEN and is not argued to modern day science. That might be why Plato is accepted: Because it can be proven.

I skimmed through several of the posts and 50 CENT typed a sentence that can SUM UP THIS ENTIRE THREAD:

"It is based on faith." Me personaly: I dont believe in faith. I believe in making good decisions in life and hopefully you get back what you put into it.

A lot of people who survive a life threatening accident or have a loved one survive usually turn towards religion. Is this out of guilt feeling that he needs to repay a higher power? Since the higher power took time out to look after the person in the accident, the person feels the same time should be given back.


If religion teaches people to love their family, friends and neighbors then praise the lord and the bible is great.

[Cycleon]

Honestly I can only snort with discust as every textual critisism stated in this thread of the bible (the most published book in history with surviving texts testing to the 2nd century) - are completely without ANY scholarly reference - mostly, i heard a rumor or read on a website that your momma's first cousins brothers wife has a fat ass and as for multiple gospels - sure there are - but almost all were forgeries tested to have been written during the middle ages - anyway, when you fellas want to have a REAL discussion - without letting your beliefs (that the bible is errant fiction) preset your studies - let me know and I might spend a little time to educate

[Grant]

because it limits your abiblity to be a free thinker, religions tell you what to think and how to act

you pick a religion, you don't follow it blindly

[JohnDoe1234]

Again, more specifically worded this time..."How does believing in a higher power that makes ME a better person, and a better person to mankind, hurt ME?"

peace,

ttgb

I would like to ask you a question, if I may. Do you need a higher power, or some religious text to make you a better person. No, you really don't, the so called good teachings of the bible or any religious text are not divine or heavenly in any way. The few things that could be called useful from the bible are just common sense. Do you need a spooky father like figure who lives in the clouds to tell you that murder is wrong?, or that **** ing your friends wife is not a good idea. Of course you don't these things should be common sense.

[Mart651]

Most gays and liberals can not believe in Christ or God. Their beliefs are against the preaching of the bible. why in the world would they want to or try to believe. As most in most religions homosexuality is wrong and has no place in their world. I can understand where Tock is coming from. He must go with the non believer side and as a smart guy he must find things to back up his beliefs.

I want to say a true christian excepts everyone for who they are and try to help them. Everyone knows that I have a long way to go before I can consider myself a good christian. I will try to except the fact that these beliefs are your choice and try my best to respect them. I am not a good debater and am not a very smart guy but if anyone here needs help with their faith or anything else. I am more than willing to try to find answers and help any way possible.


Tock this was not meant as a swing at you but I know your sexuality more than anyone elses. Believe what you want bro and I know you will. You can't believe the way I do or you would be admitting that your whole life has been wrong.

[Grant]

I would like to ask you a question, if I may. Do you need a higher power, or some religious text to make you a better person. No, you really don't, the so called good teachings of the bible or any religious text are not divine or heavenly in any way. The few things that could be called useful from the bible are just common sense. Do you need a spooky father like figure who lives in the clouds to tell you that murder is wrong?, or that **** ing your friends wife is not a good idea. Of course you don't these things should be common sense.

who lives in the clouds? Zeus?

[tryingtogetbig]

who lives in the clouds? Zeus?

If you do something wrong....a lightning bolt crashes down upon you!!

I think I've seen that in the movies!