The Bible is a work of Fiction

[Football_Bill]

Do me a favor, spend a couple of minutes a day, when you get in your car, when you go to take a shower, etc.... Just say "God, I don't know if you are out there, but I need help getting my life straight. If you are out there, give me some direction."

PTbyJason

I am going to give this a try, put it on my list of things to help me, along with quit using pot, and starting and ending the day with Yoga.

Tock, I am looking into the Unitarian church, I have found one in my area to go check out. It does look like it aligns with my current thoughts.

Thank you both, this is why AR is my favorite board!

[Tock]

Tock there are a lot of things in life that God does, that cannot be explained.

1) There are healings,

2) there are people who prophesize,

3) there are people who speak in tounges,

4) and someone across the room who has never met this person can interpret it.

5) With God all things are possible.

6) In relation to that particular story, I would have to do more research on it to see if it was literal or figurative.

7) But God has done things that man will never be able to explain,

8) so it is possible that the serpent spoke.

9) You don't have to believe it, and I don't think you will because you didn't see it with your own eyes.

10) I, myself, tried to explain away everything that God was doing at one time. I came up with excuse after excuse and finally realized that I was running out of excuses for things.

11) God does things that cannot be explained sometimes,

12) and you can pick it apart and call it nonsense if you want, or you can believe. But eventually, just as I did, you will run out of excuses.

1) No there aren't. If you know of any, do you have any medical documentation of the healing?
Check out these comments from a guy who investigated 101 claims of healings by faith healers:
------------------
http://www.abc.net.au/science/correx...ves/randi2.htm
(Paul Willis) In our second Science Week interview with James Randi, we hear about some of his experiences with faith healers, particularly fundamentalist Christian faith healers, who've been described as the world championship wrestlers of religion.

(Randi) Well first of all they don't do any faith healing, I think I can say that from a point of view of authority. I investigated for my book 'The Faith Healers' 104 cases of people who said they had been healed by faith healers or about whom it was said they were healed. And I found out those 104 people belonged to three classes: first class is people who never had the disease that they thought they did. A quick example of that is a woman who said she'd been healed of throat cancer where the faith healer admitted he touched her on the forehead. So I questioned her further, and eventually got to talk to her doctor. And her doctor sort of shook his head and he said, 'I have examined her for throat cancer at least 15 times in the past few years. Her mother died of it some years ago and every time she gets a sore throat of any kind, or a frog in her voice or whatever, she swears she has throat cancer. She comes to me and I examine her, and say, "No, no trace of any abnormality there" but she still wants to believe she has throat cancer.'

The second class of people that I examined in those 104 people, were people who still had the diseases of which they said they'd been healed. One gentleman, he said he'd been healed of diabetes. W.P. Grant, who had apparently treated this man by again hitting him on the forehead with his palm. There has never been a recorded case of diabetes being healed but it can be treated effectively either with insulin or other drugs that simulate the effect of insulin. He said, 'I'm aware of that, but I want to testify to my healing.' I said, 'OK, can I talk to your doctor?' and he said, 'Yes'. There was a pause and he said, 'By the way, my doctor won't agree that I've been healed.' I said, 'Wait now, either you are healed or you're not healed.' He said, 'Yes, but my doctor's not a Christian you see.' And he said, 'Oh I see, you're one of those sceptical people?' I said, 'Yes indeed I am, Sir, I admit that.' And he said, 'Well, I don't think I want any more of this conversation.' I said, 'One question more: are you still taking insulin?' He said, 'I thought you'd ask that.' He said, 'Yes, the Devil makes me take the insulin.'

The third class of people was even sadder. They were people who were already dead by the time I got around to interview them. And one case was in St Louis, Missouri, we went up to the front door and we were just knocking on the front door and they opened the front door and the gentleman was being wheeled out in the body bag on a gurney. He had died of the disease he said he'd been healed of, just the night before.

I can't say that faith healing has never worked or that it doesn't ever work. All I can say is my experience is 100% failure.

(Paul Willis) You also did some investigations of the faith healers themselves, and found that they were using all sorts of tricks to make people think that they could actually perform a healing.

(Randi) We found that a chap named Peter Popov here; what they would do is they would interview the crowd as they came into the place, and they'd find someone with an ailment of a certain kind, get them to describe it, and then they would transmit this to the faith healer when he was out on the floor, and we'd hear the wife's voice saying, 'Go down aisle 2 Peter, the fellow in the red shirt in the third row right on the aisle there, his name is Bill.' And so Popov would go down and say, 'Bill, why am I saying Bill? Is your name Bill?' And Bill would light up. 'And you're going to tell Dr Gladstone - what is your doctor's name?' 'Dr Gladstone'. 'Did you tell that to me, or to anyone?' 'No, I didn't.' But what they didn't say or didn't ask him was he'd filled it out on a form and handed it in previously because he was asked to do so. So this was just a case of regurgitating the information, but it was being given to them by his wife who was backstage at a transmitter, and he had a little hearing aid device that enabled him to hear this.

(Paul Willis) You've managed to show a number of them to be fakes, but since I've been here I've turned on the telly and there's still plenty of them out there. Do you feel you're fighting a losing battle?

(Randi) It's a losing battle. One fellow once said to me "Mr Randi, I assume you will realise that you're shovelling water uphill". It takes a certain amount of bravery to face up to the fact that you're not going to be rescued by an angel, or that you have to get rid of the Devil or some such thing who is cursing you. No, you've got a bacterial infection, take some penicillin.
---------------------------

2) Prophesize? Either educated guesses, or guesses about as accurate as Jeanne Dixon.

3) Pure gibberish. Besides, glossolalia, as "tongues" is called, is common in lots of Caribbean and African primitive religions. That the practice should find its way into primitive christian practices, along with snake handling, isn't at all surprising.

4) More BS. I've been to churches like this, got to know the folks involved. Ususally the "interpreters" do the interpreting because to do so demonstrates their "extra close relationship with God," which puts them in a somewhat special place of respect in the congregation. Same applies for the Babbler.

5) With Hollywood special effects, all things are possible. In fairy tales, all things are possible. Same applies to any piece of literature. If there were more talking serpents around, I'd say Gen 2 could have happened. But since they are such a rare commodity, I'd say that it was fiction. You can change my mind, though, if you can show me a talking serpent. Just one. Are you up to that challenge?

6) Research away. Seems obvious to me, though.

7) Such as?

8) But men have written legends and fairy tales and sagas and myths that are not true. Is it more likely that the Bible's talking serpent is a myth, or is it more likely that out of all the millions of serpents that have ever lived, one of them actually could speak, and of all the languages to learn, mastered English? (or Hebrew, or Aramaic, or whatever Eve was speaking)?
Common sense will tell you one thing. Blind Faith will tell you something else.

9) I glad you trust me to use my common sense.

10) Well, you shoulda got a hold of me. I would have thrown you a rope to hold on to so your intellect wouldn't have sunk in the mirey quicksand of irrational dogma and blind faith.

11) Sometimes a slick preacher can get ya to swallow something that doesn't make much sense by persuading you that "It's in the Bible," or "Exercise Faith now, and beleif will come later." That's a simple form of brainwashing, which I suppose you've fallen prey to. Nothing unusual, I've seen it happen lots of times. But it's still a tragedy when a person allows their intellect to fall prey to the irrational claims of faith.

Ya, hucksters like Peter Popov wow audiences with claims of "special knowledge" only to be discovered to be using radio transmitters. ABC News did an expose on a Dallas area faith healer, WT Grant, who lived in opulent luxury while his faithful followers in South Dallas were mostly poor old pensioners. Seems one of his favorite tricks was to put "plants" in his audience; they'd limp up to the stage, they'd be "healed," and run back and forth on stage, and that was supposed to be a Healing.
Bah.

Anyway, if you want to talk about a specific instance of someone being healed, include how the situation was confirmed by their doctor, along with X-rays and etc. Any fool can say they were "healed," anyone can have open heart surgery and thank God for healing them, but IMHO, thanks rightfully go to the medical profession.
Yah, show me substantiation, else don't make the claims.

--Tock

[Tock]

Originally Posted by Tock
1) I don't know what agnostic you're talking about, but I'm an unbeleiver, and I can answer it:
a) We are here because the pre-existing conditions before and time of our birth made our presence here inevitable.
b) Yep. You can make up any fiction to compensate for your disappointment that there isn't any more, but I'd recommend you find your harmonious place in the universe and enjoy the time you have, because that's all you're gonna get.

--Tock

1)Wow......... you are an agnostic....

2) and this is just babbling............

3) Pre existing conditions?? please... from caos comes order??? is that what you believe... In science... order is first... and from order comes caos.... without input nothing gets better with time... ....

4) You can't possible believe that we come from slime???? Now who is living in a dream world... Sorry if you are unable to support your non belief, and justify nothingness..

5) but I still prayed for you last night...... and shared your views with other believers... so now you have more than just me praying for you, for mercy, and forgivness..

1) No, I am not an agnostic. An agnostic is: 1a. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God. b. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.
I, on the other hand, am merely declaring that I do not beleive that the Bible has any authentic association with the Creator of the Universe, but that it is the product of ancient tribesmen and preists and politicians who sought to use it as a way to control large populations.
Big difference.

2) What is "just babbling?" Oh, am I drifting off into tongues again?

3) Look up "determinism." That is what makes sense to me.

4) Why not? I know some people who ARE slimeballs . . . lol . . .

5) Tell ya what, while you're praying for me to find all those things, why don't you slip in one more thing . . . I could use a good boyfriend . . . shouldn't be a big deal to get one of them, eh?


I expected to see the usual line about "How could the universe come into being from nothing?" I was ready to reply with, "How could God come into existance from nothing?" It's just as easy to contemplate the sudden creation of an omnipotent god from absolutely nothing as it is to consider the sudden creation of matter and energy from the same nothingness.

My guess, though, is that a complete understanding of the physics behind creation is beyond the comprehension of human beings. Not that I worry very much about it . . . I mostly wonder about my source for Deca (and NO I am NOT asking for a source!!) . . .

So . . . that is that.
I do appreciate your concern, though, what with all the time spent in prayer and all. I don't think it'll do much good, but all the same, it's a nice gesture.

--Tock

[Mart651]

About praying for a good guy for you. I don't think that is possible. My wife is a good christian woman and prayed for a good guy for years. IN THE END SHE ENDED UP WITH ME. If you have any other request I may can help.

Originally Posted by Tock
1) I don't know what agnostic you're talking about, but I'm an unbeleiver, and I can answer it:
a) We are here because the pre-existing conditions before and time of our birth made our presence here inevitable.
b) Yep. You can make up any fiction to compensate for your disappointment that there isn't any more, but I'd recommend you find your harmonious place in the universe and enjoy the time you have, because that's all you're gonna get.

--Tock






1) No, I am not an agnostic. An agnostic is: 1a. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God. b. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.
I, on the other hand, am merely declaring that I do not beleive that the Bible has any authentic association with the Creator of the Universe, but that it is the product of ancient tribesmen and preists and politicians who sought to use it as a way to control large populations.
Big difference.

2) What is "just babbling?" Oh, am I drifting off into tongues again?

3) Look up "determinism." That is what makes sense to me.

4) Why not? I know some people who ARE slimeballs . . . lol . . .

5) Tell ya what, while you're praying for me to find all those things, why don't you slip in one more thing . . . I could use a good boyfriend . . . shouldn't be a big deal to get one of them, eh?


I expected to see the usual line about "How could the universe come into being from nothing?" I was ready to reply with, "How could God come into existance from nothing?" It's just as easy to contemplate the sudden creation of an omnipotent god from absolutely nothing as it is to consider the sudden creation of matter and energy from the same nothingness.

My guess, though, is that a complete understanding of the physics behind creation is beyond the comprehension of human beings. Not that I worry very much about it . . . I mostly wonder about my source for Deca (and NO I am NOT asking for a source!!) . . .

So . . . that is that.
I do appreciate your concern, though, what with all the time spent in prayer and all. I don't think it'll do much good, but all the same, it's a nice gesture.

--Tock

[Tock]

About praying for a good guy for you. I don't think that is possible. My wife is a good christian woman and prayed for a good guy for years. IN THE END SHE ENDED UP WITH ME. If you have any other request I may can help.

Well, tell your wife about this little prayer effort going on in my behalf. Maybe she'll provide the prayer's answer and send you over to my place.
Who knows, maybe it'll be an answer to her prayers as well . . .
lol . . .
--Tock

[Mart651]

Oh yeah, thats just what you need. A republican right wing extremist.

I think I will just try to be a better husband and hope she never prays for me to come your way.

Well, tell your wife about this little prayer effort going on in my behalf. Maybe she'll provide the prayer's answer and send you over to my place.
Who knows, maybe it'll be an answer to her prayers as well . . .
lol . . .
--Tock

[PTbyJason]

Tock, you made this next post way too easy on me bro. Thank you for that.

You want an example of a healing, you got it. I've been researching back pain for well over a decade now. It's an interest I've had since high school. I do a lot of independent research and have spoken with experts all over the US as well as Canada. I don't have an average mind when it comes to back pain. I have always been able to understand beyond the average person. This isn't to brag, I'm just explaining that I have pretty extensive knowledge when it comes to the human back. I could keep going on with this, but for now just trust me.

My dad was injured I would say about 14 or 15 years ago with back pain. He had surgery that went horribly wrong. Became 100% disabled, confirmed by multiple doctors and retired from his company. He visited doctor after doctor. He had several other corrective surgeries that always ended in a disaster. He had disks explode during surgery, he was the first people in history to have electrical stim implanted inside his body. He saw hypnotherapist, he had physical therapy for years, I've already mentioned all of the surgeries already. He went to church one day and had hands laid on him. They prayed to God and asked for healing. 10 years of being in SEVERE pain was gone within 24 hours. I refused to believe it. I called doctors all over the US and Canada to prove my dad wrong. I looked for every possible explanation I could and stumped physician after physician, professor after professor. His case falls into none of your excuses for why healings are bogus, go try to come up with another excuse.

Don't believe in the speaking in tounges if you don't want to. I experienced it last weekend. I have neither spoken nor interpreted, but I knew it was going to happen before it ever happened. You see, when the Holy Spirits presence in the congregation, you can feel it. Man has no control over that.

Prophesy = Educated Guesses? LMAO That's pretty good. Sounds like another great excuse, and to most people it would sound like a great explanation. But you can't explain someone who you don't know, walking up to you and telling you something that you had been praying to God about. You see prophesy is not all about just answering someone's question. Sometimes they walk up and talk to someone and tell them something when they feel God wants them to. There is much more to it than you understand.

Tock, according to you God doesn't exist. So if He makes His presence felt to you over the coming weeks because some of us pray for that, will you explain that away as well? What will it take my friend. I have complete confidence that God can make his presence felt and shown to you in ways you would never expect. If He doesn't exist you have nothing to fear, right?

Let me edit this and add one additional thing. Tock, I'm not saying what you said was entirely wrong in your post that I am replying to. Some of the things you said were absolutely, 100% true. Believers don't like those who fake and make up this stuff anymore than you do, and in all honesty it probably upsets me more than it ever will you. It bothers me because someone who claims to be a Christian does things that causes others to lose faith. Tock you're going to fight this and refuse to believe, but I promise to you that if you ask God to prove himself to you, He will. I had to do this myself, and there are some guys on this board that are going through this right now as well. Jesus's disciples didn't believe in Him either at one time, but they ended up believing because He proved Himself and were all willing to die for Him. My faith is in Him, and if I have to die for my beliefs one day, then so be it. I know it is in His plan. I know without a doubt that God is real. He has proven Himself to me time and time again. I finally gave up and realized that God is real and I let Him guide me from now until my death. You owe Him a chance to prove Himself to you. If you still decide at that point, you don't want to accept Him, that's fine. But you haven't even given Him a chance.

[Tock]

Oh yeah, thats just what you need. A republican right wing extremist.

.

I've done worse . . .
--Tock lol . . .

[spywizard]

Once again... you are an agnostic... you have state so in other post.... you believe in a "Higher Power"..... but not the God as told of in the Bible... thus you are an agnostic...

You once again miss on what i pray for you... (you can't pray for things).. I pray not to convert you for i see that your fear will always keep you down..
I pray as i have stated before for mercy and forgivness for you...

And you are welcome.... I will continue to pray for you... not that you will be like me, but that when you are judged, mercy will be given to you.........

Originally Posted by Tock
1) I don't know what agnostic you're talking about, but I'm an unbeleiver, and I can answer it:
a) We are here because the pre-existing conditions before and time of our birth made our presence here inevitable.
b) Yep. You can make up any fiction to compensate for your disappointment that there isn't any more, but I'd recommend you find your harmonious place in the universe and enjoy the time you have, because that's all you're gonna get.

--Tock






1) No, I am not an agnostic. An agnostic is: 1a. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God. b. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.
I, on the other hand, am merely declaring that I do not beleive that the Bible has any authentic association with the Creator of the Universe, but that it is the product of ancient tribesmen and preists and politicians who sought to use it as a way to control large populations.
Big difference.

2) What is "just babbling?" Oh, am I drifting off into tongues again?

3) Look up "determinism." That is what makes sense to me.

4) Why not? I know some people who ARE slimeballs . . . lol . . .

5) Tell ya what, while you're praying for me to find all those things, why don't you slip in one more thing . . . I could use a good boyfriend . . . shouldn't be a big deal to get one of them, eh?


I expected to see the usual line about "How could the universe come into being from nothing?" I was ready to reply with, "How could God come into existance from nothing?" It's just as easy to contemplate the sudden creation of an omnipotent god from absolutely nothing as it is to consider the sudden creation of matter and energy from the same nothingness.

My guess, though, is that a complete understanding of the physics behind creation is beyond the comprehension of human beings. Not that I worry very much about it . . . I mostly wonder about my source for Deca (and NO I am NOT asking for a source!!) . . .

So . . . that is that.
I do appreciate your concern, though, what with all the time spent in prayer and all. I don't think it'll do much good, but all the same, it's a nice gesture.

--Tock

[PTbyJason]

tock, I added to my post above. I didn't want you to miss it.

[Tock]

1) Tock, you made this next post way too easy on me bro. Thank you for that.

2) You want an example of a healing, you got it. I've been researching back pain for well over a decade now. It's an interest I've had since high school. I do a lot of independent research and have spoken with experts all over the US as well as Canada. I don't have an average mind when it comes to back pain. I have always been able to understand beyond the average person. This isn't to brag, I'm just explaining that I have pretty extensive knowledge when it comes to the human back. I could keep going on with this, but for now just trust me.

3) My dad was injured I would say about 14 or 15 years ago with back pain. He had surgery that went horribly wrong. Became 100% disabled, confirmed by multiple doctors and retired from his company. He visited doctor after doctor. He had several other corrective surgeries that always ended in a disaster. He had disks explode during surgery, he was the first people in history to have electrical stim implanted inside his body. He saw hypnotherapist, he had physical therapy for years, I've already mentioned all of the surgeries already. He went to church one day and had hands laid on him. They prayed to God and asked for healing. 10 years of being in SEVERE pain was gone within 24 hours. I refused to believe it. I called doctors all over the US and Canada to prove my dad wrong. I looked for every possible explanation I could and stumped physician after physician, professor after professor. His case falls into none of your excuses for why healings are bogus, go try to come up with another excuse.

4) Don't believe in the speaking in tounges if you don't want to. I experienced it last weekend. I neither speak nor interpret, but I knew it was going to happen before it ever happened. You see, when the Holy Spirits presence in the congregation, you can feel it. Man has no control over that.

5) Prophesy = Educated Guesses? LMAO That's pretty good. Sounds like another great excuse, and to most people it would sound like a great explanation. But you can't explain someone who you don't know, walking up to you and telling you something that you had been praying to God about. You see prophesy is not all about just answering someone's question. Sometimes they walk up and talk to someone and tell them something when they feel God wants them to. There is much more to it than you understand.

6) Tock, according to you God doesn't exist. So if He makes His presence felt to you over the coming weeks because some of us pray for that, will you explain that away as well? What will it take my friend. I have complete confidence that God can make his presence felt and shown to you in ways you would never expect. If He doesn't exist you have nothing to fear, right?

1) Glad to oblige.

2) Ok, I trust you.

3) So, is your dad 100% better, or what? Does he get up and get around like (I shudder to use the term) "normal?" The prior therapies he had doesn't count for any of his progress? And the docs are all "stumped?" He hasn't been getting into your AS, has he?

4) Yah, that same "feeling" can be produced through good drama, lighting, background music. Been there, done that, many times.

5) When I say "Educated Guesses," I mean like when someone "prophesies" that John kerry is gonna run against George Bush in the November election. It's pretty obvious, but anyone can record such a prophecy, then play it back in November, and crow over how accurate they were.
Other folks, like fortune tellers in the National Enquirer, blather so much that sooner or later they have to be right on something, so they play that one or two things they got right, and then everyone says they're prophets.
Nuts, I say.

6) No . . . according to me, I don't beleive in the veracity of the Bible. I don't beleive in talking serpents, in tribal myths, that people rise from the dead, that Peter Popov ever healed anything but his bank account, etc.

--Tock

[PTbyJason]

1) Glad to oblige.

2) Ok, I trust you.

3) So, is your dad 100% better, or what? Does he get up and get around like (I shudder to use the term) "normal?" The prior therapies he had doesn't count for any of his progress? And the docs are all "stumped?" He hasn't been getting into your AS, has he?

4) Yah, that same "feeling" can be produced through good drama, lighting, background music. Been there, done that, many times.

5) When I say "Educated Guesses," I mean like when someone "prophesies" that John kerry is gonna run against George Bush in the November election. It's pretty obvious, but anyone can record such a prophecy, then play it back in November, and crow over how accurate they were.
Other folks, like fortune tellers in the National Enquirer, blather so much that sooner or later they have to be right on something, so they play that one or two things they got right, and then everyone says they're prophets.
Nuts, I say.

6) No . . . according to me, I don't beleive in the veracity of the Bible. I don't beleive in talking serpents, in tribal myths, that people rise from the dead, that Peter Popov ever healed anything but his bank account, etc.

--Tock

1.

2. Thank You

3. Therapy was stopped because he no longer had any progress. Insurance companies wrote him off and had to settle with him because every treatment he had was burning more of their money. His last surgery was successful until he developed a staph infection which reversed the whole process. He has more scar tissue in his back and neck than anyone should have in their whole body. He wasn't even able to walk at times when he was injured, now he is pain free, walks the neighborhood twice a day, works in the garden and lives a "normal" life. You don't realize how big of a deal "normal" is until you experience continuous pain, night and day for 10 years. He wasn't able to sleep, go to the mall, take car trips, etc... "Normal" is huge. My dad no longer uses pain or any other types of medication.

4. Great excuse. Incorrect, but good try. Lighting and music were identical. I knew before any of that had a chance to become a factor.

5. Still don't get prophesy do you? Ok imagine you are praying for something....say there is someone in your life who has been sick. You don't tell people, but you pray and pray and pray. You are sitting on a park bench somewhere and someone walks up and says, "I just wanted you to know that God hears your prayers, and those who you are praying for will be healed." Or a pastor feels that he should do something different in service. He feels that, I don't know, say the offering should be taken up at the end of service instead of the beginning. He doesn't tell anyone. Someone walks up to him and says, "It would please God if the offering was taken up at the end of service" That is a prophetic message, in my humble opinion. Someone can correct me if I am wrong. I know prophets can predict things, but this has nothing to do with "guessing" the future.

6. So now that I know what you don't believe, what do you believe?

[Farmer]

Oddly enough I had a huge debate on this very subject this past weekend at my work believe it or not I just wanted to throw something out there and see what some responses are.

What if a group of people who are deeply into religon (pick one) decide to branch off from the "mainstream" and begin to develop there own religon. This religon begins to grow and grow with the amount of people that follow it and believe in it. Eventually it becomes so popular and believed that it is known by everyone, whether they believe in it or not. It is passed on from one generation to another with different stories being added until eventually it is "complete". Then a few thousand years later it is here for us to discuss on AR .

Hopefully I got across what I was trying to. What if that is how it was, what if it all snowballed and became larger and larger as time went on to be known as the truth. Hell if I think and believe in something for long enough I believe it as truth. Especially when it is something I am raised to believe in, parents and older people have a lot of control over the outlooks and beliefs a child has (ignore the parents who have no control whatsoever[ i.e. any episode of Jerry Springer])
I will probably never be able to explain it well while typing and really be able to express how I really see it and feel but it is something to think about. Because if you never question anything and take everything at "face value" you are in for a rude awakening.

Peace

Farmer

[PTbyJason]

Oddly enough I had a huge debate on this very subject this past weekend at my work believe it or not I just wanted to throw something out there and see what some responses are.

What if a group of people who are deeply into religon (pick one) decide to branch off from the "mainstream" and begin to develop there own religon. This religon begins to grow and grow with the amount of people that follow it and believe in it. Eventually it becomes so popular and believed that it is known by everyone, whether they believe in it or not. It is passed on from one generation to another with different stories being added until eventually it is "complete". Then a few thousand years later it is here for us to discuss on AR .

Hopefully I got across what I was trying to. What if that is how it was, what if it all snowballed and became larger and larger as time went on to be known as the truth. Hell if I think and believe in something for long enough I believe it as truth. Especially when it is something I am raised to believe in, parents and older people have a lot of control over the outlooks and beliefs a child has (ignore the parents who have no control whatsoever[ i.e. any episode of Jerry Springer])
I will probably never be able to explain it well while typing and really be able to express how I really see it and feel but it is something to think about. Because if you never question anything and take everything at "face value" you are in for a rude awakening.

Peace

Farmer

I've heard that argument before and it's a great argument until you realize a few things.

I believe there were over 300 prophesies about Jesus in the Old Testament, hundreds of years before he came along. Every one of them came true. Psalm 22 is one of many places you can look for some of the prophesies.

Believers as well as non-believers documented Jesus's existance. There were many who followed Him based on His teachings. The disciples did not even believe Jesus all of the time and when he died I personally believe they lost faith that He was the Son of God. After His resurrection there was a huge amount of conversions to follow God and Jesus that stretched all over the earth. A lot of those happened because these same disciples who had given up on Him, suddenly believed again that He was the Son of God. When He rose again they were able to preach His word because of what was seen.

The problem with your argument is that the Old Testament predicted Jesus and what would happen to Him long before it ever did and the people that helped teach people about Jesus didn't even believe in Jesus Himself until He proved Himself to them. Now before anyone says anything. Jesus was not able to make all of the prophesies come true on His own. So it's not a valid argument that He or anyone else made them happen. The reason the disciples began preaching His word after his death can be summed up in John 21:25 "Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written." I believe it was Paul who at one time murdered Christians. But when Jesus proved Himself time and time again to the disciples including after the resurrection they were willing to die for Him because their belief was so strong.

Now if you want to argue that the documents are just being made up as time goes on and that the stories are not true, but have been embellished and added to. I'm doing some research on the Dead Sea scrolls now because of this thread, and the scriptures are lining up almost identical with scriptures today. These scrolls are carbon dated about 2,000 years. Some more, some less, but they match almost word for word on everything. So that can't be argued either.

[floyd_turbo]

religion = social control.... control by the weak of the strong.... read some friedrich nietzsche....so yes the bible is fiction..... numerous examples and philosophical arguments can be provided to further this statement

ft-

[PTbyJason]

religion = social control.... control by the weak of the strong.... read some friedrich nietzsche....so yes the bible is fiction..... numerous examples and philosophical arguments can be provided to further this statement

ft-

Believing in God and religion are different things. One can believe in God and give their life over to God without getting tied up in a particular religion. I think most everyone will agree with that statement, believers and non-believers. That does not make the Bible fiction, that is an entirely different, unrelated argument.

[floyd_turbo]

interesting... but if religions are simply rules for living our lives morally, made so that we are able to get along with each other, under the threat of eternal ****ation or eternal happiness in heaven... a relationship must exist between the two.... there would be no religions if there were no god(s). causality would suggest that the notion of religon and god are interrelated

[spywizard]

that's not what the bible is about..

it is a historical document... with many substantiated sources that supports it's existance...

Religion is the church ... the church means a body of believers...

so the church/religion is not the bible.. this thread debates the historical accuracy of this document...

with that said.. Tock has yet to prove that the Bible is not true....

period....

interesting... but if religions are simply rules for living our lives morally, made so that we are able to get along with each other, under the threat of eternal ****ation or eternal happiness in heaven... a relationship must exist between the two.... there would be no religions if there were no god(s). causality would suggest that the notion of religon and god are interrelated

[floyd_turbo]

by the way i have no intentions of disrespecting anyones religious beliefs nor do i intend too.. jus my .02

ft-

[floyd_turbo]

the church, is a place of religious sanctuary and for worship of god.. they worship through following the scripture found in the bible..... heres some proof its invalid.... research the flood of gilgamesh...aka noah's arc, completely fabricated...... the bible steals history

period

ft-

[PTbyJason]

by the way i have no intentions of disrespecting anyones religious beliefs nor do i intend too.. jus my .02

ft-

We know bro. It's cool. It's just a debate. We all respect one anothers beliefs, we just argue different points about it.

[spywizard]

No... christians worship God... not in a place.....

Do a search... there are shark teeth on top of Pikes peak in Colorado (found one myself)... the geological structure of the mountain shows that it was at the bottom of an ocean...

time since the flood??? about 5500 years.. science proved that.......

the church, is a place of religious sanctuary and for worship of god.. they worship through following the scripture found in the bible..... heres some proof its invalid.... research the flood of gilgamesh...aka noah's arc, completely fabricated...... the bible steals history

period

ft-

[floyd_turbo]

research the flood of gilgamesh.....it was completely borrowed

[spywizard]

search current scientific fact.......

research the flood of gilgamesh.....it was completely borrowed

[PTbyJason]

research the flood of gilgamesh.....it was completely borrowed

If you really want to research these topics and decide if you think it was really borrowed or not.

Compare Noah's Flood to The Flood of Gilgamesh

And if you want more information on scientific fact and much more like spy wizard mentioned, I've provided a link to that now as well.

It's a lot of reading, but there are a lot of answers there.

[Cycleon]

when does it occur to you that multiple references in disparate cultures argues for the substantiality of a flood event very close to the story in Genesis, in fact, VERY much so.

The fact that the gilgimesh story seems to have written references that would predate that of the writing of the Pentatuch - simply points to the fact that Jewish history is traditionally oral and Moses was the first to actually write something about it, a history at the time of his writing that was quite old already.

But really - If they drug tock up to mt ararat and chained him to Noahs Ark and sat him on the Ark of the Covenant - it would not change his beliefs - that is what they are, BELIEFS - they are in no way dependent on facts. What was it abraham said to the rich man in the story of Lazarus? "they have the scriptures, for if they do not believe those, they will not believe even if one should rise from the dead."

[BigJim39]

- it would not change his beliefs - that is what they are, BELIEFS - they are in no way dependent on facts. What was it abraham said to the rich man in the story of Lazarus? "they have the scriptures, for if they do not believe those, they will not believe even if one should rise from the dead."

WHen people discuss or argue about religion, they forget this exact principle.......

religion by design is faith based......regardless of which religion it is you have to have faith to believe what you believe..

[Tock]

Another indication that Moses did NOT write the book of Genesis . . .

"So what?" you say? I'll tell you why this is significant, mes petites . . . Fundamentalist orthodoxy says Moses wrote the first 5 books of the Bible. They cannot say, "We don't know who wrote it; the author is anonymous; it could have been written by a Muslim for all we know." An answer like that would not give the Pentateuch (as those 5 books are called) much weight or prestige. So, they say Moses wrote them.
Well, take a gander at this.
Assuming Moses existed at the time he was supposed to, he would have lived around 1500 BC. 500 years later, around 1000 BC, King David (the guy who slew the giant Goliath) ruled Israel. When he died, his son, Solomon, took over.

Now . . . Moses is supposed to have written this little tid-bit of information:

Genesis 36:31
31 And these are the kings that reigned in the land of Edom, before there reigned any king over the children of Israel.
32 And Bela the son of Be'or reigned in Edom: and the name of his city was Din'habah.
33 And Bela died, and Jobab the son of Zerah of Bozrah reigned in his stead.
34 And Jobab died, and Husham of the land of Te'mani reigned in his stead.
35 And Husham died, and Hadad the son of Bedad, who smote Mid'i-an in the field of Moab, reigned in his stead: and the name of his city was Avith.
36 And Hadad died, and Samlah of Masre'kah reigned in his stead

Notice how these are Kings in the land of Edom, "before there reigned any King over the children of Israel."
First question here is, "How did Moses, who lived in 1500 BC know there were Kings in Israel" when kings in Isreal didn't happen until 500 years later?


Now, Turn with me in your Bibles to the next scripture reading in

I Kings 14:11
And the LORD stirred up an adversary unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite: he was of the king's seed in Edom.

Now, if you notice, in Genesis 36:35 the writer refers to the same fellow in I Kings 14:11, who wasn't born until over 500 years later. The $64,000 question here is, "How did he know about Mr. Hadad?"

The obvious answer is, "He didn't." The Book of Genesis, was probably not written until AFTER both King David and Solomon had been around a while, and after someone knew who Hadad and all his relatives mentioned in the begats were. All those other stories about Joseph and his coat of many colors, and Shadrak and Nebendigo (and that other guy) who were thrown into a firey furnace yet not burnt up; the story of the talking serpent in the Garden of Eden--all those stories in Genesis--Pure Fiction. Tall Tales. Never happened. About as real as an "I Love Lucy re-run."

So . . . if all that stuff is just fiction, does anyone have to live by them?
Beleive it or not, some folks will say yes. But for anyone else who wants to live their lives in whatever way is most meaningful to them, the answer, the Real Answer, is, of course, No.

You, mes petites, are free to go.

--Tock

[Tock]

1.

2. Thank You

3. Therapy was stopped because he no longer had any progress. Insurance companies wrote him off and had to settle with him because every treatment he had was burning more of their money. His last surgery was successful until he developed a staph infection which reversed the whole process. He has more scar tissue in his back and neck than anyone should have in their whole body. He wasn't even able to walk at times when he was injured, now he is pain free, walks the neighborhood twice a day, works in the garden and lives a "normal" life. You don't realize how big of a deal "normal" is until you experience continuous pain, night and day for 10 years. He wasn't able to sleep, go to the mall, take car trips, etc... "Normal" is huge. My dad no longer uses pain or any other types of medication.

4. Great excuse. Incorrect, but good try. Lighting and music were identical. I knew before any of that had a chance to become a factor.

5. Still don't get prophesy do you? Ok imagine you are praying for something....say there is someone in your life who has been sick. You don't tell people, but you pray and pray and pray. You are sitting on a park bench somewhere and someone walks up and says, "I just wanted you to know that God hears your prayers, and those who you are praying for will be healed." Or a pastor feels that he should do something different in service. He feels that, I don't know, say the offering should be taken up at the end of service instead of the beginning. He doesn't tell anyone. Someone walks up to him and says, "It would please God if the offering was taken up at the end of service" That is a prophetic message, in my humble opinion. Someone can correct me if I am wrong. I know prophets can predict things, but this has nothing to do with "guessing" the future.

6. So now that I know what you don't believe, what do you believe?

3) Hmmm . . . I'll have to chew on that for a while.
It would be interesting to see a review of your Dad's case done by an independant doctor and that guy, James Randi, who checked other supposed faith healings.
You might consider checking out his million dollar paranormal deal at
http://www.randi.org/ I dunno if your dad's situation would qualify, but maybe it would, and y'all might get a cool million if what you claim holds up to scrutiny . . .

5) Yah, I've that prophecy stuff plenty of times. Only it was obviously bogus. Painfully so.

6) Determinism makes sense to me. see
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04756c.htm for a breif intro.
I had this figured out long before I ever heard the term. Not that it makes any difference; just that I didn't "adopt" any line of thought, I just discovered that other folks had the same idea I had.

--Tock

[Tock]

1) Once again... you are an agnostic... you have state so in other post.... you believe in a "Higher Power"..... but not the God as told of in the Bible... thus you are an agnostic...

2) You once again miss on what i pray for you... (you can't pray for things).. I pray not to convert you for i see that your fear will always keep you down..
I pray as i have stated before for mercy and forgivness for you...

And you are welcome.... I will continue to pray for you... not that you will be like me, but that when you are judged, mercy will be given to you.........

1) If it makes you feel better, you can call me an agnostic. I'm not, but I'll give you special permission to think so.

2) Well, let me ask you this . . . how many times do you suppose you have to pray for this to happen? Are you expected to nag God until you annoy him so much he gives in? Or do you subscribe to the notion that "The fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much?" or maybe "If two or more ask in my name, I will grant it!"
Not that I much subscribe to these ideas myself, it's just that I don't want you to be spending so much time dealing with unanswered prayer than you get so upset and frustrated that you get pissed at me for being such a determinist. I'd just as soon not see your good mood go to ruin . . .
--Tock

[spywizard]

Hey Tock...


Now i have to pray for mercy for you and those that you may lead astray...

Silly Rabbit...

Have you ever read the new testement???

And here's one for you... did you know that the gates of Hell are locked from the inside???

The point is... many choose to live in darkness...

I say to you............ come out and live in the light...


But since you don't believe in the bible, or the history that it teaches... you believe (as you have stated before) that we are just here... enjoy....

what a sad little existance you must have, with having to live with so many people around you hating you because of your lifestyle choices. And with you rejecting any value system that so many have.. you are truely all alone..

rejecting you because of the lack of anything that you believe in..

well........... you just keep hating them back.. there should be plenty of happiness for you in this world... and since you don't believe in anything but the here and now.............this really is all there is for you..........


I will still pray for mercy... but judgement... i can't do anything about that for ya.. but since you don't believe in God............ maybe that will exclude you from that judgement... you can always hope.......... but that's all ya got.......


Then... for you... this is as good as it gets........

[Tock]

I believe there were over 300 prophesies about Jesus in the Old Testament, hundreds of years before he came along. Every one of them came true. Psalm 22 is one of many places you can look for some of the prophesies.

It would be interesting to go through those 300 prophecies, one by one, examine what each says, and see if it has been fulfilled.
Do you have a list? Ya wanna give it a try?
--Tock

[Tock]

Believing in God and religion are different things. One can believe in God and give their life over to God without getting tied up in a particular religion. I think most everyone will agree with that statement, believers and non-believers. That does not make the Bible fiction, that is an entirely different, unrelated argument.

I don't know that "One can beleive in God and give their life over to God without getting tied up in particular religion," because in order to know how to do so, you need to know what the procedure and rules are. To get that sort of information, you have to consult religious practice--read a bible, consult a rabbi or a buddist monk, etc etc.

--Tock

[DF2003]

tock, is this where you wanna be when jesus comes back?
quote-joe dirt

[Tock]

No... christians worship God... not in a place.....

2) Do a search... there are shark teeth on top of Pikes peak in Colorado (found one myself)... the geological structure of the mountain shows that it was at the bottom of an ocean...

3) time since the flood??? about 5500 years.. science proved that.......

2) Ok, answer me this . . .

What's the altitude of Pikes Peak? About 14,000 feet?
And Mt Everest is around 29,000 feet tall? (29,000 feet / 5280 feet per mile = 5.5 miles tall)
The Earth has about 197,260,000 square miles of surface space.
( http://www.kralidis.ca/gis/maproj/earthdims.htm )

If Noah's flood covered the entire planet, then there would have been an extra amount of water equal to the volume of the planet's surface times the tallest point on the planet, or
197,260,000 times 5.5 = 1,084,930,000 cubic miles of water.

That's about the size of a big block 1000 miles by 1000 miles by 1000 miles.
My question to you is, after the Flood, all that water had to go someplace to allow dry land to form. Tell me, where did all that water go?
And while you're at it, tell me where all that water came from in the first place.

3) Time since the Flood is 5500 years, and "science has proven that?" May I ask just How has science proven that?

--Tock

[Tock]

But really - If they drug tock up to mt ararat and chained him to Noahs Ark and sat him on the Ark of the Covenant - it would not change his beliefs - that is what they are, BELIEFS - they are in no way dependent on facts. ."[/I]

If someone hauled my ass up to Mt Ararat and chained me to some old decayed boat, I'd say, "Well well well. Look at this old boat. I wonder where it came from." And until a satisfactory answer came along, it would be premature to identify it as the Real Ark, or as some replica built by monks in the Dark Ages, or a boat built by Romans or some other obscure group of people who were actually trying to build a shopping mall.

Over the years there's been quite a few expeditions up to Ararat, and nothing's been found. I don't think they ever will, because the whole story is fiction; it couldn't have happened; all the animals on the planet could not have fit; they couldn't have put enough food and water to feed 'em all for 14 months. They couldn't have cleaned out all the urine and crap all those thousands of animals would have created, even if they worked 'round the clock. Then there's the problem of distribution to contend with -- how did the kangaroos swim from Asia to Australia? How did all those weird looking reptiles get to the Galapagos islands?
Nah, it's all fiction. Never happened.

If you have Faith, though, it doesn't matter if it's fiction, or if reason demonstrates that it could not have happened. If you Beleive it happened, that's enough. It doesn't have to be true, as long as you have enough Faith.

--Tock

[spywizard]

Ever been to North Dakota????

It has the largest single deposit of "Dinasour Fossils"

they are all layed out in a fashion that shows that they were "washed up and laid out from a flood"... says so on the placque that is there...

Here is one for ya...

The largest living thing on the earth is the "Barrier Reef" it grows at about the same rate each year. If you do the math... it shows that it has been around About 5000 years.......


The Moon..... if it is the same age as the earth??? there is dust on the moon.. it gets there by the spacial drift... which is mesurable..

When the Apolo mission first went there.. do you remember that the landing legs-pods were large saucer devices??? (i know you do.. you're old enough) the reason they were like that was that if the moon was about the same age as the earth... 1,000,000 years.... they estimated that the surface would have 16-32 feet of dust on it.. when they got there ... the average depth... 3"... using the same calculation of age for the moon... 6,000 years... tops..

I could go on.. but again...... You just insist on living in ignorance...

You do know that the world is round don't you...............

I'm sorry...

I'm back had to pray for forgivness... and i prayed for you again..

2) Ok, answer me this . . .

What's the altitude of Pikes Peak? About 14,000 feet?
And Mt Everest is around 29,000 feet tall? (29,000 feet / 5280 feet per mile = 5.5 miles tall)
The Earth has about 197,260,000 square miles of surface space.
( http://www.kralidis.ca/gis/maproj/earthdims.htm )

If Noah's flood covered the entire planet, then there would have been an extra amount of water equal to the volume of the planet's surface times the tallest point on the planet, or
197,260,000 times 5.5 = 1,084,930,000 cubic miles of water.

That's about the size of a big block 1000 miles by 1000 miles by 1000 miles.
My question to you is, after the Flood, all that water had to go someplace to allow dry land to form. Tell me, where did all that water go?
And while you're at it, tell me where all that water came from in the first place.

3) Time since the Flood is 5500 years, and "science has proven that?" May I ask just How has science proven that?

--Tock

[Tock]

Hey Tock...
1) Now i have to pray for mercy for you and those that you may lead astray...
2) Have you ever read the new testement???
3) And here's one for you... did you know that the gates of Hell are locked from the inside???

The point is... many choose to live in darkness...
I say to you............ come out and live in the light...

But since you don't believe in the bible, or the history that it teaches... you believe (as you have stated before) that we are just here... enjoy....

4) what a sad little existance you must have, with having to live with so many people around you hating you because of your lifestyle choices. And with you rejecting any value system that so many have.. you are truely all alone..

5) rejecting you because of the lack of anything that you believe in..

6) well........... you just keep hating them back.. there should be plenty of happiness for you in this world... and since you don't believe in anything but the here and now.............this really is all there is for you..........


7) I will still pray for mercy... but judgement... i can't do anything about that for ya.. but since you don't believe in God............ maybe that will exclude you from that judgement... you can always hope.......... but that's all ya got.......


8) Then... for you... this is as good as it gets........

1) You do? Or else what?
2) What do you think?
3) I'm sure you know that from first hand observation . . .
4) It's not quite that bad. Between a healthy appreciation for art and an aptitude for mischeif, it has its fun moments . . .
5) more for lack of things in common. Which is fine. The "average" person is average. And "Average people" are usually dull and boring. Unusual people, freethinkers, wild-ass nuts, eccentrics, those sorts of people and I get along pretty well. And that's enough.
6) no sense in trying to deceive myself into beleiving something that I really don't.
7) Still harping on that "Judgement" stuff, eh? You do know that's just the old Fear-based argument, the "Turn or Burn" stuff? Tsk tsk tsk. Ya, if you can't persuade 'em to convert, scare the daylights out of 'em.
That sure is some "God of Love" you worship . . . planning to send the vast majority of people ever created to writhe in unspeakable torment for billions upon billions of ages, and all for the crime of harboring an honest doubt.
IMHO, any god that would do that is so petty, so mean, so brutal, so sadistic, that it deserves NOT human reverence and worship, but the contents of billions upon billions of rotting septic tanks heaped upon its loathesome head. Even that would be too good for it, but seeing as I'm in a good mood tonight, I'll let it go at that . . .
8) Does it?
--Tock

[floyd_turbo]

here's a philosophical fact for you spy.... .. the problem of evil...
according to common core christian beliefs if god exists, then he must be omnipotent,(all powerful) omniscient (all knowing), and omnibenelovent (morally perfect)

if god is perfectly loving (omnibenelovent), he must wish to abolish evil
if he is all powerful (omniscient), he must be able to abolish evil

But evil exists
-- The problem is, if you affirm two of these facts, you cannot affirm the third.

Therefore, an all powerful, loving God does not exist.

i know this might seem a little off topic, but it shakes the complete foundations of christian beliefs and the validity of the bible altogether..

ft-

[spywizard]

Actually.......... i believe that he will have more mercy than i could ever have...

And even faced with the facts......... you still refuse to acknowledge the truth...

Too sad............Cyleon was right about you........ If you had been nailed to the cross next to Jesus, after witnessing everything.. you would still deny the truth...........

I am done....

But i will still pray for mercy for you..........

1) You do? Or else what?
2) What do you think?
3) I'm sure you know that from first hand observation . . .
4) It's not quite that bad. Between a healthy appreciation for art and an aptitude for mischeif, it has its fun moments . . .
5) more for lack of things in common. Which is fine. The "average" person is average. And "Average people" are usually dull and boring. Unusual people, freethinkers, wild-ass nuts, eccentrics, those sorts of people and I get along pretty well. And that's enough.
6) no sense in trying to deceive myself into beleiving something that I really don't.
7) Still harping on that "Judgement" stuff, eh? You do know that's just the old Fear-based argument, the "Turn or Burn" stuff? Tsk tsk tsk. Ya, if you can't persuade 'em to convert, scare the daylights out of 'em.
That sure is some "God of Love" you worship . . . planning to send the vast majority of people ever created to writhe in unspeakable torment for billions upon billions of ages, and all for the crime of harboring an honest doubt.
IMHO, any god that would do that is so petty, so mean, so brutal, so sadistic, that it deserves NOT human reverence and worship, but the contents of billions upon billions of rotting septic tanks heaped upon its loathesome head. Even that would be too good for it, but seeing as I'm in a good mood tonight, I'll let it go at that . . .
8) Does it?
--Tock