The Bible is a work of Fiction

[spywizard]

Why would he obolish evil... that time is fortold already...


Man's choice to sin against God, seperated him from that protection..

Did you ever notice that scientist say we only use 10% of our brain capacity???

I wonder if Adam had full capacity..

God is not some being that is all loving.. he is however all powerfull.... of coarse i have no knowledge of any other being creating everything..

Do you.???


And. No it doesn't.....

God is not all loving..............where did you get that out of Christianity???

here's a philosophical fact for you spy.... .. the problem of evil...
according to common core christian beliefs if god exists, then he must be omnipotent,(all powerful) omniscient (all knowing), and omnibenelovent (morally perfect)

if god is perfectly loving (omnibenelovent), he must wish to abolish evil
if he is all powerful (omniscient), he must be able to abolish evil

But evil exists
-- The problem is, if you affirm two of these facts, you cannot affirm the third.

Therefore, an all powerful, loving God does not exist.

i know this might seem a little off topic, but it shakes the complete foundations of christian beliefs and the validity of the bible altogether..

ft-

[floyd_turbo]

my bad, poor wording......all loving, is intended to mean morally perfect

ft-

[floyd_turbo]

In fact, the Bible declares that "God is Love" (I John 4:8).

[spywizard]

Moraly perfect means perfect judgment.. I do not have that capability... because i am self interested...

and there for will not apply a just judgment... Only God knows the heart of man..

There is only one way................. actually there is a second possibility... you and i may live to see the coming of the judgement.. then we will both know.. otherwise it will be after our deaths............

my bad, poor wording......all loving, is intended to mean morally perfect

ft-

[floyd_turbo]

yes but if god is morally perfect which he should be, why wouldnt he abolish evil? why have people needlessly suffer i.e. jews - holocaust??

tock - sorry i hope i didnt hijack this thread

ft-

[Tock]

I noticed you didn't come up with an answer to my question, "Where did all that water (a cube of water 1000 miles on a side) come from that flooded the planet?"

Instead you posed a few more questions . . .

It's late, and I've got other fish to fry, so I'll respond to two.

1) The largest living thing on the earth is the "Barrier Reef" it grows at about the same rate each year. If you do the math... it shows that it has been around About 5000 years.......


2) The Moon..... if it is the same age as the earth??? there is dust on the moon.. it gets there by the spacial drift... which is mesurable..

When the Apolo mission first went there.. do you remember that the landing legs-pods were large saucer devices??? (i know you do.. you're old enough) the reason they were like that was that if the moon was about the same age as the earth... 1,000,000 years.... they estimated that the surface would have 16-32 feet of dust on it.. when they got there ... the average depth... 3"... using the same calculation of age for the moon... 6,000 years... tops..

I could go on.. but again...... You just insist on living in ignorance...

You do know that the world is round don't you...............

I'm sorry...

I'm back had to pray for forgivness... and i prayed for you again..

1) I don't know squat about things in the ocean (I lost interest after seeing Jaws). But if something looks like it's big enough to have been growing for 5000 years, then maybe it just got started growing 5000 years ago?
Duh . . .

2) I don't know squat about moon dust either, but I've heard other folks talk about it. Seems to be an evergreen of sorts in creationist debates . . . so, for your benefit, and since you seem to be knowledgeable about these things, I've included a reference to some info you may not be privy to right now. Seems some folks who practice science according to the Scientific Method have something to say about your moondust . . . check it out at
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/moon-dust.html

It's been fun, but
I gotta run
--Tock

[JohnDoe1234]

Did you ever notice that scientist say we only use 10% of our brain capacity???

Thats an urban legend. Due to the fact that the brain is so highly specialized we only use 10% of it at any given time, but in point of fact we pretty much use all of it throughout the course of the day.

[Tock]

yes but if god is morally perfect which he should be, why wouldnt he abolish evil? why have people needlessly suffer i.e. jews - holocaust??

tock - sorry i hope i didnt hijack this thread

ft-

Good point . . .
And if God created everything, why would He create fireants? Or Smallpox? Or Anthrax? Polio? Cancer?
Ain't much of a loving creator, if you ask me . . .
--Tock

[JohnDoe1234]

http://snopes.com/science/stats/10percnt.htm here is the link to prove it.

[spywizard]

Did you ever have to punish someone???? after you did... did you still love them???

even though they did something that was wrong???


sin.. the choices that we make is what causes suffering..

Moses struck the stone and ordered the water to come forth.... that's not what God told him to do.. and for that the generation of jews that were lead out of Egypt died in the desert... as judgement.. punishment.. for thier hearts were not able to understand, or love and obey God..

Sin and disobedience is what seperates us from God... He got tired of trying to teach us, and so he sent Jesus, to teach us to love God, and to love one another.. also to fulfill the prophets.... Jesus was the sacrifice for our sins,

and just believing in Jesus is not the answer... for even satan know who the christ was.....

You have to believe that his sacrifice was sufficient to pay attonment for mankinds sin.. .............. notice the word Believe...??

yes but if god is morally perfect which he should be, why wouldnt he abolish evil? why have people needlessly suffer i.e. jews - holocaust??

tock - sorry i hope i didnt hijack this thread

ft-

[Tock]

Did you ever notice that scientist say we only use 10% of our brain capacity???

I wonder if Adam had full capacity..

. . . and that rumor is not true.
Yes, a small percent is used for conscious stuff, but the rest is constantly used for regulating body functions. Ain't none of it sitting idle.
--Tock

[spywizard]

Benjamin Radford is Managing Editor of the Skeptical Inquirer and holds a degree in psychology.

the idiot is a psychologist.......... not a scientist.. or a neurosurgeon..

jeepers....


and he gets paid to write the article...

http://snopes.com/science/stats/10percnt.htm here is the link to prove it.

[Tock]

here's a philosophical fact for you spy.... .. the problem of evil...
according to common core christian beliefs if god exists, then he must be omnipotent,(all powerful) omniscient (all knowing), and omnibenelovent (morally perfect)

if god is perfectly loving (omnibenelovent), he must wish to abolish evil
if he is all powerful (omniscient), he must be able to abolish evil

But evil exists
-- The problem is, if you affirm two of these facts, you cannot affirm the third.

Therefore, an all powerful, loving God does not exist.

i know this might seem a little off topic, but it shakes the complete foundations of christian beliefs and the validity of the bible altogether..

ft-

I like it . . .
Kinda reminds me of my favorite syllogism:

If Satan is the father of all evil, and
If God created Satan, then
God is the Grandfather of All Evil.

Yah, it's silly, but it still makes me laugh . .
--Tock

[JohnDoe1234]

http://snopes.com/religion/lostday.htm this one is about the story of David and the 24 hours of sun light.

[JohnDoe1234]

Benjamin Radford is Managing Editor of the Skeptical Inquirer and holds a degree in psychology.

the idiot is a psychologist.......... not a scientist.. or a neurosurgeon..

jeepers....


and he gets paid to write the article...

reguardless, I've heard it stated elsewhere before.

[Tock]

Actually.......... i believe that he will have more mercy than i could ever have...

From what I understand of the Bible's god, I'm sure you, even on your worst day, would have more mercy and compassion than It on its best day.

Proof: Suppose a humble lady, who had devoted her life to healing the sick, feeding the poor, and finding clothing and shelter for the needy, should come before the Judgement Throne. God would account for all her good deeds as mere "filthy rags," and sentence her to billions upon billions of endless ages of torture and agony because she did not beleive according to the Bible.

Suppose God got up to take a piss break, and let you Judge for a while. And this humble lady should take her turn before you. Would you punish her with torment for the single offense of unbeleif, or would you cut her some slack?

I'd suppose you'd do the humanatarian thing and cut her some slack. And because of that, I would trust you and your sense of morality much more than the god of the Bible.

--Tock

[Tock]

Benjamin Radford is Managing Editor of the Skeptical Inquirer and holds a degree in psychology.

the idiot is a psychologist.......... not a scientist.. or a neurosurgeon..

jeepers....


and he gets paid to write the article...

Sorry bud, but psychologists are very much scientists. The discipline involves the methodical study of the mind, and they rely on the Scientific Method to test their results.

Being a shrink, he should know what he's talking about in this article . . .
-Tock

[Grant]

Im still laughing at the Arch story and hybronation and maybe this and maybe that. I think Tock tore apart the arch theory.

To answer "Why are we here?" Why does there have to be a reason. Its just evolution. Its also PURE LUCK that we are still here. 93 percent of Earth's species are extinct. That means Earth has a 7 percent success rate in evolution. Not very good statistics.

attributing "life" to luck is absurd

[TheGame826]

Another question . . . If Jesus was Jewish, how come he had a Mexican name?
--Tock

ahaha sorry but that one made me laugh....

anyways on a serious note.... Ive studied many religions or should I say Beliefs throughout the past years. I have come up with a couple conclusions that I will throw out to you non-believers.

Sorry for Highjacking the thread but these are just simple facts.

First off many people of the world that are following "their" "God" are all following the same god. Most of the stories can be connected to each other despite the fact that they are of different religions. Also even Ghandi and Buddha believed in a "God". Ghandi who is considered one of your "free thinkers" believed in God. Just think about that for a minute. Why is it that all the stories and beliefs and followers can be connected to one.

There is fact that there was a man named of Jesus who was born in Bethlahem.
There is fact that Mary existed.
There is fact that a carpenter named Joseph existed.

Lets just go back to genisis for a moment. Since you want all these questions answered of how much fact was in the bible. The story of creation states that the world and all of its creatures were created in 7 days. And on the 7th day he rested. To us one day is 24 hours. Could you tell me how long one of gods days is? For all we know, 1 billion years to us, might be 1 day to god and god may still be resting.

Basically like what was said before it all comes down to failt. To believe in something so strongly is a very poweful thing. Do you believe in family? Do you believe in yourself? Do you believe in fate? Do you believe in God? are all questions you shoulnt be trying to answer in a matter of years of your life but in an entire lifetime.

Being a catholic, i know how us christians judge many others. If you dont like being judged by us christians, I can assure you most likely will not like being judged by St. Peter when you approach those curly gates.

All of your questions and your arguments are not questions of fact but of Faith!

[TheGame826]

Good point . . .
And if God created everything, why would He create fireants? Or Smallpox? Or Anthrax? Polio? Cancer?
Ain't much of a loving creator, if you ask me . . .
--Tock

Do they not serve a purpose? If not for cancer the world would be very much over populated and at our current state of technological development we (the population) would not be able to function.

I have a question for you just one simple question... when the wind blows you feel it against you. However you cannot see or touch or taste or smell the wind as it blows on you. Does this mean that the wind is not real and does not exist?

[TheGame826]

Hey Jason, great posts throughout this whole thread. I read most of them and got alot of them. Also this thread gave me even more respect for you.

I have a question for you as well though, since you seem to have a pretty good knowledge of the bible. Isnt it said somewhere that Judas hung himself from the tree to commit cuicide but was not successful because God said that he would walk the earth forever and ever? And Judas tried killing himself many more times but was never successful?

[PTbyJason]

3) Hmmm . . . I'll have to chew on that for a while.
It would be interesting to see a review of your Dad's case done by an independant doctor and that guy, James Randi, who checked other supposed faith healings.
You might consider checking out his million dollar paranormal deal at
http://www.randi.org/ I dunno if your dad's situation would qualify, but maybe it would, and y'all might get a cool million if what you claim holds up to scrutiny . . .

5) Yah, I've that prophecy stuff plenty of times. Only it was obviously bogus. Painfully so.

6) Determinism makes sense to me. see
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04756c.htm for a breif intro.
I had this figured out long before I ever heard the term. Not that it makes any difference; just that I didn't "adopt" any line of thought, I just discovered that other folks had the same idea I had.

--Tock

3. Trust me, I tried to prove my dad wrong for over a year. Good luck. I tried power of the mind, the nerves deadening after a certain amount of time, etc... There are reasons you can try to come up with that will explain them away, but there is no good reason why it happened at that very moment. It is possible the nerves could have turned off by themselves, but even the hypnotherapist never did anything for him. As far as that paranormal website. My dad does not have supernatural power Tock. Come on. If that was the case, he wouldn't have suffered for so long.

6. Thanks, I'll read up on that later today. Short on time right now.

[PTbyJason]

here's a philosophical fact for you spy.... .. the problem of evil...
according to common core christian beliefs if god exists, then he must be omnipotent,(all powerful) omniscient (all knowing), and omnibenelovent (morally perfect)

if god is perfectly loving (omnibenelovent), he must wish to abolish evil
if he is all powerful (omniscient), he must be able to abolish evil

But evil exists
-- The problem is, if you affirm two of these facts, you cannot affirm the third.

Therefore, an all powerful, loving God does not exist.

i know this might seem a little off topic, but it shakes the complete foundations of christian beliefs and the validity of the bible altogether..

ft-

I don't have kids, but I can imagine this. If you have kids, sometimes you have to let them go through hard times on their own so they will learn from their mistakes. God allows evil and sin in this world. If it wasn't for the sin that I have gone through, I never would have turned to God. If there was no evil, you would have no reason to turn to God. Everything would be just fine. So suffering causes you to turn to God, which is what He wants us to do anyway. The worst experiences in my life has made me a better person. I think most people will say that. The times that you suffer the most extreme pain in your life, improves your life so much more in the end. So God allows those things to happen to strengthen our relationship with Him.

I read all of your posts about this, so what I typed may not all apply to what you just said, just a basic of everything you typed above this post.

[PTbyJason]

1) If it makes you feel better, you can call me an agnostic. I'm not, but I'll give you special permission to think so.

2) Well, let me ask you this . . . how many times do you suppose you have to pray for this to happen? Are you expected to nag God until you annoy him so much he gives in? Or do you subscribe to the notion that "The fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much?" or maybe "If two or more ask in my name, I will grant it!"
Not that I much subscribe to these ideas myself, it's just that I don't want you to be spending so much time dealing with unanswered prayer than you get so upset and frustrated that you get pissed at me for being such a determinist. I'd just as soon not see your good mood go to ruin . . .
--Tock

Luke 18:1-8
The Parable of the Persistent Widow

Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up. He said: "In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor cared about men. And there was a widow in that town who kept coming to him with the plea, 'Grant me justice against my adversary.'

"For some time he refused. But finally he said to himself, 'Even though I don't fear God or care about men, yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will see that she gets justice, so that she won't eventually wear me out with her coming!' " And the Lord said, "Listen to what the unjust judge says. And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?"

[Cycleon]

here's a philosophical fact for you spy.... .. the problem of evil...
according to common core christian beliefs if god exists, then he must be omnipotent,(all powerful) omniscient (all knowing), and omnibenelovent (morally perfect)

if god is perfectly loving (omnibenelovent), he must wish to abolish evil
if he is all powerful (omniscient), he must be able to abolish evil

But evil exists
-- The problem is, if you affirm two of these facts, you cannot affirm the third.

Therefore, an all powerful, loving God does not exist.

i know this might seem a little off topic, but it shakes the complete foundations of christian beliefs and the validity of the bible altogether..

ft-

Your conclusion would be true if your statements were valid - that is not to say that they are necessarily untrue but rather that they have a wide latitude that needs to be defined. It is likely that you equate "goodness" with certain actions that you deem good or "evil" according to your perception and really, what is good in your perception is that which is pleasant - that view certainly may not be the same by an omipotent creator. The true falacy is that it removes choice (free will) from the equation - but the truth is that we only want the pleasant results of our own choices, not the bad.

A simple example will suffice - your young son is playing around the stove and although you have told him many times not to touch the heating element, with an impish smile he defiantly puts his finger toward it with you watching across the room - now, you could run across the room and stop him before he does or allow him his way - sure enough he does so and gets his finger burned (maybe understanding why you told him not to do that, maybe not) - and he wails and crys "daddy, why didnt you protect me?"

Now certainly from his perspective, the results of his action was evil, and in fact you allowed it to happen so how could you really love him? From your perspective, although you feel bad for his temporary hurt, the experience was good in that it taught him to avoid the stove and to obey your word. His perception is based upon the interests of a few moments and the feeling of pain that he has, your focus is on the totality of his entire lifetime.

Now you might say, well that is fine because he disobeyed - what about if he accidently touched it, or his bigger sister put his finger on it?

In the first case, actions are still a result of free choice, despite not understanding the consequences of that choice - God could deliver us from that a few times but if he always does it, then is there really any free choice? no different than you protect your child when they are young, catch them, pay for broken things, etc. But when they are older, you let them take the responsibility for their own actions, with the attendent costs that may come as well - that is part of free will.

In the second case, you are basically asking God to override the free will of everyone, including yourself presumably - who acts to hurt another person, intentionally or not. Thus we are back to the same example - do you always stop you daughter from burning your son? what if she really really wants to? How can you disallow her choice on one thing but not others - of course, her brother does not want that but he can only govern his own choices not hers - for in the end, each is responsible for the choices that they make - else how could God truly judge your actions if you could truly say "I had no choice"

Still people say, maybe I can understand that kind of thing for smaller stuff but what about 911? I believe that God has deflected many previous similar actions of his own soveriently and due to the prayers of people to keep this nation safe - this indeed gives him a "right" to act in our circumstances - yet even so, He cannot always override the results of our own continued, willfull actions, even those that are designed to hurt others - nor can he always invalidate the reprocussions of the mistakes of our rulers (whom we elect, after all).

Again, your definition of good, evil and free will are suspect from your exceedingly limited plane of perception (as is shared by us all) - Yet God is interested in that which is eternal - many times I may have prayed for someone else to be less of a pain, when God answered by working on me and my heart, not their outward actions - or when I prayed for something to happen and it may not have, only to find out that the end result was far better but could only be discerned as such several years later. THis is why it is critical that we have "faith" which is really the choice to subjegate our will to His best choice for us - even then, things are not guaranteed to be "pleasant" but best.

[PTbyJason]

Hey Jason, great posts throughout this whole thread. I read most of them and got alot of them. Also this thread gave me even more respect for you.

I have a question for you as well though, since you seem to have a pretty good knowledge of the bible. Isnt it said somewhere that Judas hung himself from the tree to commit cuicide but was not successful because God said that he would walk the earth forever and ever? And Judas tried killing himself many more times but was never successful?

That I have not heard. From what I recall there were supposedly inconsistent accounts of his suicide, and I thought it predicted that one of his disciples would commit suicide. There is one verse saying he hung himself and another that his guts were all over the ground on the rocks. Obviously he hung himself and the tree (or whatever) broke and his guts spilled out. 2 different obvservations by 2 different people. I'm going to get tock a list of all of the prophecies come true about Jesus and I will be able to tell you a better answer at that point. I'll get back to you with more before I leave work today.

[Cycleon]

Isnt it said somewhere that Judas hung himself from the tree to commit cuicide but was not successful because God said that he would walk the earth forever and ever? And Judas tried killing himself many more times but was never successful?

No, that is nowhere in the bible or even in oral tradition of early church fathers that I am aware - more significantly, it violates the nature of God - ie, Judas's choice and the consequences for it.

[PTbyJason]

It would be interesting to go through those 300 prophecies, one by one, examine what each says, and see if it has been fulfilled.
Do you have a list? Ya wanna give it a try?
--Tock

How's this for now:

GOD WOULD COME TO EARTH
BE BORN AS A HUMAN MALE



Isaiah 9:6-7 [6] For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. [7] Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. ... 700 B.C.

Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel about Jesus Christ, the Son of God. John 1:1-3, 14 [1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [2] He was with God in the beginning. [3] Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. [14] The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

BORN OF A VIRGIN



Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. 700 B.C. Mattthew 1:20-23 [20] But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. [21] She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." [22] All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: [23] "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" --which means, "God with us."

FROM THE HOUSE OF JUDAH



Isaiah 37:31 Once more a remnant of the house of Judah will take root below and bear fruit above. 700 B.C. Matthew 1:1-2, 16 [1] A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son [descendant] of David, the son of Abraham: [2] Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers, [16] and [a later] Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

FROM THE ROOT AND STUMP OF JESSE



Isaiah 11:10 In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his place of rest will be glorious. 700 B.C.

Isaiah 11:1-5 [1] A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit. [2] The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him-- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD-- [3] and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or decide by what he hears with his ears; [4] but with righteousness he will judge the needy, with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked. [5] Righteousness will be his belt and faithfulness the sash around his waist. 700 B.C.

Romans 15:12 And again, Isaiah says, "The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; the Gentiles will hope in him." Matthew 1:1-2a, 5-6, 16 [1] A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham: [2] Abraham was the father of Isaac, ... [5] ... Obed the father of Jesse, [6] and Jesse the father of King David. [16] and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

FROM THE HOUSE OF DAVID



Isaiah 16:5 In love a throne will be established; in faithfulness a man will sit on it--one from the house of David--one who in judging seeks justice and speeds the cause of righteousness. 700 B.C. Matthew 1:1-2A, 6, 16 [1] A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham: [2] Abraham was the father of Isaac, ... [6] and Jesse the father of King David. [16] and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

BORN IN BETHLEHEM EPHRATHAH



Micah 5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times. 700 B.C.

Matthew 2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem Over the years there have been a number of "Bethlehems" in Israel. At the time of Jesus' birth, Bethlehem Ephrathah, referred to in Matthew as "Bethlehem in Judea", was a village about five miles south of Jerusalem, and there also was a town named Bethlehem about seven miles northwest of Nazareth. (Per footnote Matthew 2:1 of the Zondervan NIV Study Bible, 10th Anniversary Edition, (c) 1995)

BE FROM NAZARETH OF GALILEE



Isaiah 9:1-2 [1] Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom for those who were in distress. In the past he humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future he will honor Galilee of the Gentiles, by the way of the sea, along the Jordan -- [2] The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned. 700 B.C.

Matthew 2:22-23 [22] But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning in Judea in place of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. Having been warned in a dream, he withdrew to the district of Galilee, [23] and he went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets: "He will be called a Nazarene." Matthew 4:13-16 [13] Leaving Nazareth, he [Jesus] went and lived in Capernaum, which was by the lake in the area of Zebulun and Naphtali-- [14] to fulfill what was said through the prophet Isaiah: [15] "Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali, the way to the sea, along the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles -- [16] the people living in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned."

HIS BIRTH WOULD TRIGGER A MASSACRE OF INFANT BOYS



Jeremiah 31:15 This is what the LORD says: "A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because her children are no more." 625 B.C.

Matthew 2:16-18 [16] When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. [17] Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled: [18] "A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more." An interesting side note: most people think that Herod killed thousands of babies. However, Bethlehem was "in the boondocks." The chances are that less than thirty babies were killed.

COME OUT OF EGYPT



Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. 725 B.C. Matthew 2:14-15 [14] So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, [15] where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son."

MISSION WOULD INCLUDE THE GENTILES



Isaiah 49:6 he [the Lord] says: "It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth." 700 B.C.

Isaiah 42:1-4, 6 [1] "Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring justice to the nations. [2] He will not shout or cry out, or raise his voice in the streets. [3] A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out. In faithfulness he will bring forth justice; [4] he will not falter or be discouraged till he establishes justice on earth. In his law the islands will put their hope." [6] "I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles, 700 B.C.

Matthew 12:14-21 [14] But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus. [15] Aware of this, Jesus withdrew from that place. Many followed him, and he healed all their sick, [16] warning them not to tell who he was. [17] This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: [18] "Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations. [19] He will not quarrel or cry out; no one will hear his voice in the streets. [20] A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out, till he leads justice to victory. [21] In his name the nations will put their hope." Note that in Biblical usage the Gentiles are often referred to as "the nations."

MINISTRY WOULD INCLUDE MIRACULOUS HEALINGS



Isaiah 29:18 In that day the deaf will hear the words of the scroll, and out of gloom and darkness the eyes of the blind will see. 700 B.C.

Isaiah 35:5-6a [5] Then will the eyes of the blind be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped. [6a] Then will the lame leap like a deer, and the mute tongue shout for joy. 700 B.C. Luke 7:20-22 [20] When the men came to Jesus, they said, "John the Baptist sent us to you to ask, `Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?' " [21] At that very time Jesus cured many who had diseases, sicknesses and evil spirits, and gave sight to many who were blind. [22] So he replied to the messengers, "Go back and report to John what you have seen and heard: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor."

MINISTRY WOULD DELIVER SPIRITUAL CAPTIVES



Isaiah 61:1-2 [1] The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners, [2] to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn, 700 B.C.

Luke 4:16-21 [16] He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read. [17] The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written: [18] "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, [19] to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor." [20] Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, [21] and he began by saying to them, "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing." Not too shabby, considering it was His first sermon!

DESPISED AND REJECTED BY MEN



Isaiah 53:3 He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 700 B.C. The Crucifixion narratives in all four Gospels show this prophecy fulfilled.

HATED WITHOUT CAUSE



Psalm 69:4 Those who hate me without reason outnumber the hairs of my head; many are my enemies without cause, those who seek to destroy me. I am forced to restore what I did not steal. 1000 B.C.

Isaiah 49:7 This is what the LORD says-- the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel-- to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation, to the servant of rulers: "Kings will see you and rise up, princes will see and bow down, because of the LORD, who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you." 700 B.C.

John 7:48-49 "Has any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed in him? [49] No! But this mob that knows nothing of the law--there is a curse on them." John 15:24-25 [24] If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. [25] But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: `They hated me without reason.'

REJECTED BY RULERS



Psalm 118:22 The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone [cornerstone of a building]; [23] the LORD has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes. before 400 B.C.

Matthew 21:42 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures:" `The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes' ? John 7:48-49 Has any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed in him? [49] No! But this mob that knows nothing of the law--there is a curse on them.

REJECTED BY HIS OWN BROTHERS



Psalms 69:8 I am a stranger to my brothers, an alien to my own mother's sons 1000 B.C.

(Side note: this pretty much kills the Catholic Church's claim that when the Gospels name Jesus' brothers they are talking about His cousins.)

Mark 3:20-21 [20] Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. [21] When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, "He is out of his mind." John 7:1-5 [1] After this, Jesus went around in Galilee, purposely staying away from Judea because the Jews there were waiting to take his life. [2] But when the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles was near, [3] Jesus' brothers said to him, "You ought to leave here and go to Judea, so that your disciples may see the miracles you do. [4] No one who wants to become a public figure acts in secret. Since you are doing these things, show yourself to the world." [5] For even his own brothers did not believe in him.

BETRAYED FOR 30 PIECES OF SILVER



Zechariah 11:12 I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. 500 B.C. Matthew 26:14-15 [14] Then one of the Twelve--the one called Judas Iscariot--went to the chief priests [15] and asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins.

SILVER RETURNED

SILVER USED TO BUY POTTER'S FIELD



Zechariah 11:12-13 [12] I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. [13] And the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"--the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter. 500 B.C. Matthew 27:3-10 [3] When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders. [4] "I have sinned," he said, "for I have betrayed innocent blood." "What is that to us?" they replied. "That's your responsibility." [5] So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. [6] The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." [7] So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners. [8] That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day. [9] Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "They took the thirty silver coins, the price set on him by the people of Israel, [10] and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the Lord commanded me."

DISCIPLES WOULD SCATTER



Zechariah 13:7 "Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, against the man who is close to me!" declares the LORD Almighty. "Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered, and I will turn my hand against the little ones." 500 B.C. Matthew 26:31 Then Jesus told them, "This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written: " `I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'"

[PTbyJason]

Part 2:

BEATEN WITH A ROD


Micah 5:1 Marshal your troops, O city of troops, for a siege is laid against us. They will strike Israel's ruler on the cheek with a rod. 700 B.C. Mark 15:19 Again and again they struck him on the head with a staff and spit on him. Falling on their knees, they paid homage to him.

GIVEN VINEGAR AND GALL TO DRINK



Psalm 69:21 They put gall in my food and gave me vinegar for my thirst. 1000 B.C.

Matthew 27:34 There they offered Jesus wine to drink, mixed with gall; but after tasting it, he refused to drink it.

Matthew 27:48 Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a stick, and offered it to Jesus to drink.

HANDS AND FEET NAILED

Psalm 22:16 Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. 1000 B.C.

John 20:25 So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."

CRUSHED FOR OUR INIQUITIES

Isaiah 53:5-6 [5] But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. [6] We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. 700 B.C.

Romans 4: 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification. 1 Corinthians 15:3 (NAB*) I handed on to you first of all what I myself received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures
*NAB=New American Bible (not NASB=New American Standard Bible)

SUFFERED FOR THE SINS OF OTHERS



Psalm 69:4 Those who hate me without reason outnumber the hairs of my head; many are my enemies without cause, those who seek to destroy me. I am forced to restore what I did not steal. 1000 B.C.

Isaiah 53:5-6 [5] But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. [6] We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. 700 B.C.

Romans 4: 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification. 1 Corinthians 15:3 (NAB) I handed on to you first of all what I myself received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures

PIERCED FOR OUR TRANSGRESSIONS



Isaiah 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. 700 B.C.

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 500 B.C.

John 19:33-34; 36-37 [33] But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. [34] Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. [36] These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken," [37] and, as another scripture says, "They will look on the one they have pierced."

NO BONES BROKEN

Psalm 22:17 I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. 1000 B.C.

Psalm 34:20 he protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken. 1000 B.C.

John 19:33; 36a [33] But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. [36a] These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken," It is important to realize that crucifixion victims' legs normally were broken. And yet, a thousand years before the Crucifixion of Jesus, King David foretold that the Messiah would die in an unusual way. See Forensic Pathology Report on Jesus.

SOLDIERS GAMBLE FOR HIS CLOTHES



Psalm 22:18 They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing. 1000 B.C.

Matthew 27:35 When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

BRUTALLY KILLED

Isaiah 53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. 700 B.C. See all four Gospels.

ASSIGNED A GRAVE WITH THE WICKED



Isaiah 53:9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death 700 B.C. Crucifixion was normally reserved for criminals and people the Romans wanted to "make an example of". As a crucifixion victim, Jesus would have been assigned a grave (if any) with such people.

BURIED IN A RICH MAN'S TOMB



Isaiah 53:9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death ... 700 B.C. Matthew 27:57,59-60 [57] As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. [59] Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, [60] and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away.

THE MESSIAH WOULD RETURN FROM THE DEAD



Isaiah 53:8, 11 [8] By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. [11] After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. 700 B.C. Matthew 28:2, 5-7, 9 [2] There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. [5] The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. [6] He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. [7] Then go quickly and tell his disciples: `He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.' Now I have told you." [9] Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.

FAMILIAR WITH SUFFERING

Isaiah 53:3 He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 700 B.C.



The Crucifixion of Jesus was not an anomoly in how people treated Him:

• 
  
  He was "run out of town" at several places.
  
  Mark 5:14-17 [14] Those tending the pigs ran off and reported this in the town and countryside, and the people went out to see what had happened. [15] When they came to Jesus, they saw the man who had been possessed by the legion of demons, sitting there, dressed and in his right mind; and they were afraid. [16] Those who had seen it told the people what had happened to the demon- possessed man--and told about the pigs as well. [17] Then the people began to plead with Jesus to leave their region.
  
• 
  
  People tried to stone Him.
  
  John 10:31-33 [31] Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, [32] but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" [33] "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
  
• 
  
  Some Jewish leaders conspired to kill Him.
  
  John 7:1 After this, Jesus went around in Galilee, purposely staying away from Judea because the Jews there were waiting to take his life.
  
  Matthew 12:14 But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.
  
• 
  
  His own family thought He was crazy.
  
  Mark 3:20-21 [20] Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. [21] When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, "He is out of his mind."
  
• 
  
  His brothers told Him to go to a festival, expecting He would be killed.
  
  John 7:1-3, 5 [1] After this, Jesus went around in Galilee, purposely staying away from Judea because the Jews there were waiting to take his life. [2] But when the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles was near, [3] Jesus' brothers said to him, "You ought to leave here and go to Judea, so that your disciples may see the miracles you do." [5] For even his own brothers did not believe in him.
  
• 
  
  His disciples abandoned Him.
  
• He was crucified.
  
  

[Tock]

1) ahaha sorry but that one made me laugh....

2) Being a catholic, i know how us christians judge many others. If you dont like being judged by us christians, I can assure you most likely will not like being judged by St. Peter when you approach those curly gates.

1) Well, it was supposed to be humor. Geez, you guys are starting to make me feel that I can't tell a joke . . .

2) Ah . . . yet another "Turn or Burn" comment. But what's the deal with those "curly gates?" Never heard of those before . . .

--Tock

[Tock]

Part 2:

to him, "You ought to leave here and go to Judea[/i][/b], so that your disciples may see the miracles you do." [5] For even his own brothers did not believe in him.[/color]
[*]

His disciples abandoned Him.
[*]He was crucified.

[/list]

Cool. I got 'em printed, we'll see how well they hold up to Tock's all-seeing Eye of Scrutiny . . .

--Tock

[Tock]

1) Do they not serve a purpose? If not for cancer the world would be very much over populated and at our current state of technological development we (the population) would not be able to function.

2) I have a question for you just one simple question... when the wind blows you feel it against you. However you cannot see or touch or taste or smell the wind as it blows on you. Does this mean that the wind is not real and does not exist?

1) Quite remarkable . . . it's not often I see a fundamentalist make the argument for evolutionary adaptive survival.
But since Jehovah finished Creation on the sixth day, all the nasty bugs would have been finished by then, including anthrax, cancer, polio, etc. In Adam and Eve's perfect world, those things would not have been needed. But nevertheless, they were around, which demonstrates that Jehovah had plans to torment humans right from the get-go.
Oh geez, this is too much fun . . .

2) True, you cannot see air. Nevertheless, it can be measured and examined under instruments like spectroscopes and barometers, combined with other chemicals, all sorts of things. Anyone with a cursory knowledge of science is aware of this. I'm gonna assume you got this little tid-bit from your preacher, who, I will venture to guess, most likely did not get a degree in physics.

Thanks for playing, Try again.
--Tock

[Tock]

3. Trust me, I tried to prove my dad wrong for over a year. Good luck. I tried power of the mind, the nerves deadening after a certain amount of time, etc... There are reasons you can try to come up with that will explain them away, but there is no good reason why it happened at that very moment. It is possible the nerves could have turned off by themselves, but even the hypnotherapist never did anything for him. As far as that paranormal website. My dad does not have supernatural power Tock. Come on. If that was the case, he wouldn't have suffered for so long.

6. Thanks, I'll read up on that later today. Short on time right now.

3) Yah, well, the thing I'm thinking about is that not everything that we don't have an explanation for is necessarily the Work of God. I'm not sayin' it isn't, not sayin' it is. I need to be persuaded one way or the other; I don't rely on heresay reports, as there's lots of BS floating around out there on all sorts of things . . . eyewitness reports of UFO abductions, guys claiming they can do a 600 lb bench press, claims that George Bush and Queen Elizabeth are both shape-shifting lizardpeople from the center of the Earth. If I beleived everything that people told me was true, I'd be nuts.
Instead, I check things out . . . sometimes I'll accept the findings of trustworthy sources (folks with established track records and reputations for accuracy), but that's about it. Even that stuff, I'll verify if I get a chance.
Not that I don't trust you, mon ami, but as I don't really know you apart from this board, and as the vast majority of fundamentalists I've encountered have been lacking a gear or two in the Reality Gearbox, I have to say I'm not prepared to take your word for this thing. It sounds good, but unless the case is examined by some experts, I'll have to classify this as a "maybe, maybe not."

6) Cool.

--Tock

[Tock]

[22] All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: [23] "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" --which means, "God with us."[/color]
[/color]

How's this for starters . . .

Verse 22:
Can you identify what prophet had said this? Or was this phrase just tossed in to make the story sound good? (I think you're really gonna have to dig on this one--I'm so mean)

Verse 23:
Supposedly the kid would be called Immanuel. And what name did he go by? Jesus.
Kinda reminds me of an auto repair shop on the Mexican side of town:
"Jesus' Immanual Transmission Repair"
(just kidding)

--Tock

[tryingtogetbig]

3) I need to be persuaded one way or the other; I don't rely on heresay reports, as there's lots of BS floating around out there on all sorts of things . . . .Instead, I check things out . . . sometimes I'll accept the findings of trustworthy sources.... I'll verify if I get a chance....It sounds good, but unless the case is examined by some experts, I'll have to classify this as a "maybe, maybe not."--Tock

Tock...you believe in many things in life that cannot be proved one way or the other by the "experts." Many things in life, there is no scientific proof of why things are the way they are.....why would believing in a God be any different? "Selective Faith?"

peace,

ttgb

[TheGame826]

That I have not heard. From what I recall there were supposedly inconsistent accounts of his suicide, and I thought it predicted that one of his disciples would commit suicide. There is one verse saying he hung himself and another that his guts were all over the ground on the rocks. Obviously he hung himself and the tree (or whatever) broke and his guts spilled out. 2 different obvservations by 2 different people. I'm going to get tock a list of all of the prophecies come true about Jesus and I will be able to tell you a better answer at that point. I'll get back to you with more before I leave work today.

Yes I have not ever seen any thing about this in scripture either. I was just curious if there was any truth to this because in movies like the "7th Seal" they talked about his curse and how he could not die until Jesus returned to earth when all of the martyrs (not sure on the spelling) were gone or something along those lines. I havent watched the movie in a long while.

[TheGame826]

No, that is nowhere in the bible or even in oral tradition of early church fathers that I am aware - more significantly, it violates the nature of God - ie, Judas's choice and the consequences for it.

good point.

[spywizard]

You truely don't understand.........

that is clear........

That woman... never hearing the word of God... (the only living God) will be judged as an infant.... an innocent..

You however.. having heard the truth and deny it... will be judged as you have stated...

So judgment is subjective.........

a murder, a liar, an adulter, even a gay man.... who on thier deathbed... prays to God asking forgivness, believing that the death, and reserection of Jesus was atonment for your sins.. that the sacrifice that was made for you is enough to pay for your sins.... that person will be judged as clean of sin..

From what I understand of the Bible's god, I'm sure you, even on your worst day, would have more mercy and compassion than It on its best day.

Proof: Suppose a humble lady, who had devoted her life to healing the sick, feeding the poor, and finding clothing and shelter for the needy, should come before the Judgement Throne. God would account for all her good deeds as mere "filthy rags," and sentence her to billions upon billions of endless ages of torture and agony because she did not beleive according to the Bible.

Suppose God got up to take a piss break, and let you Judge for a while. And this humble lady should take her turn before you. Would you punish her with torment for the single offense of unbeleif, or would you cut her some slack?

I'd suppose you'd do the humanatarian thing and cut her some slack. And because of that, I would trust you and your sense of morality much more than the god of the Bible.

--Tock

[Tock]

Tock...you believe in many things in life that cannot be proved one way or the other by the "experts." Many things in life, there is no scientific proof of why things are the way they are.....why would believing in a God be any different? "Selective Faith?"

peace,

ttgb

Things like what?
--Tock

[Tock]

a murder, a liar, an adulter, even a gay man.... who on thier deathbed... prays to God asking forgivness, believing that the death, and reserection of Jesus was atonment for your sins.. that the sacrifice that was made for you is enough to pay for your sins.... that person will be judged as clean of sin..

And this is yet another reason why the morality of the Bible is so lame.

Take on one hand, a 35 year old widow, who struggled for years and years and years to earn enough money to keep food on the table for her kids, suffered with arthritis and the pain of cancer in her final days; after having lived a life of honesty, love, and caring to the best of her ability, honoring her debts, helping the occasional homeless person in worse situations than her own even though she really couldn't afford to,
should this poor lady die outside what is called "the saving grace of Jesus," she will be sentenced to an eternity of unspeakable torment. IMHO, that is "Cruel And Unusual Punishment." The sort of thing that only a sadist would do.
Take on the other hand, a savagely cruel miscreant of the likes of Adolph Hitler, who is responsible for the deaths of 6 million Jews and millions more gypsies, trade unionists, homosexuals, and others; a man who caused the destruction of most of Europe, encouraged the rise of other dictators who caused further horrors upon the human race; Ya, take a demon like this who unrepentantly inflicted pain and misery everywhere he went (and further), let him "accept Jesus" at the last moment before death, and then he gets to live forever in the splendors of Heavenly Ecstasy forever and ever.

It ain't fair.
That system of justice not only sucks, but it sucks chancred penii. It is not the Justice of a loving deity; it is the Justice of Demons.
And I ain't gonna be a part of it.

--Tock