Abortion: should the gov't ban it?

[chicamahomico]

I thought about not posting, but hey difference of opinion is what makes people interesting.

I'm with Taejoon on the point of abortion being murder, however I don't agree with the rest of his argument, the slope is too slippery and way too steep. But that is another discussion for another day.

Abortion is murder.....accept it for what it is. There are many instances when murder is accepted by society at a particular time and place.......self defence, wartime, and abortion. The biblethumpers are betting the house on the fact that 99% people cannot deal with what abortion really is......and they hope to convince you to be Pro-life via 'murder is not acceptable' train of thought. Fortunately, Pro-choice folk have come up with many fancy ways of justifying abortion. Sugar coating the definition has allowed abortion in most socially progressive countries to be legalized. Also, IMO the religion argument holds no weight here, or anywhere for that matter, because people are not obliged to subscribe to Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Scientology, or any other organized religion.

[Taejoon]

Yes. Empathy is the ability to understand what others are feeling and why.It requires reason. Animals can't empathize or "relate" on an emational or intellectual level.

You've given no justification for this line of reasoning and science says otherwise. You lack education on this point. Animals absolutely can relate to one another, they can reason, and anyone that has ever owned a dog will certainly tell you there are times when the dog is happy, sad, guilty etc.... Animals do have emotions, anyone educated in the field will tell you the same.

Ah but primates lack humanity which is a point you chose to ignore.

I didn't ignore it you pin head. You really don't pay attention to what you write do you? You're the one that described humanity as the ability to "empathize and relate to one another on an emotional level." Go read your first post. That was how you described it, not I. You seem to be describing it as something different in this post, because your last description didn't work for you at all. That's fine though, so now all you have to do is define humanity for me..... Tell me what humanity is.... Tell me what its properties are, then I will tell you why animal’s posses all the same ones....

To say there is no difference between a 6 month fetus and a 1 year old child remains ludicrous and is an ignorant statement plain and simple. My basis is my personal experience with my own children and their development.

Man, you need some serious help with your debate skills. It's not an ignorant statement! Ignorance implies a lack of justification for your beliefs, when on the contrary I clearly laid out a hypothesis that gave me justification for thinking as I do. You seem to have overlooked my example, and the fact that it was there alltogether. I'm glad that your justification for thinking the way you do comes from your own personal experience; where else would it come from! Someone else’s experience? What a redundant statement. Incidentally, the basis for my beliefs also comes my own personal experience (imagine that?).

It is not learning but developing senses to which you refer. A big difference.

Oh contrar my good fellow! To develop senses, a fetus must receive input from the outside world. It's an inductive process, meaning that, the fetus is learning how to use its senses which are already there. You do not "develop" senses. Taste, touch, hearing etc.... They are either there or they are not (Can a deaf person develop their sense of hearing? No!.... Why? Because they are deaf!). In the sense in which you have used the word 'developing', what you are really saying is that the fetus is learning to use the senses which it already has. Again, when your argument is examined closely it falls apart.... Hence there is no difference between the phrases "developing senses" and "learning to use your senses".

No thanks I'm an atheist. I don't believe as I do because of theological dogma but as a member of the human race that recognizes the uniqueness of our species. As I said before those who kill other humans are psycho/sociopathic. Talk about anthrapology, they haven't quite eveolved to the level of having humanity.

Well that's fine, good for you.... I'm really charmed that you're an atheist. If you’re an atheist, where do your morals come from? Why is murder wrong? Did you learn murder was wrong when you were growing up? Or, do you feel in your heart/conscience that there is something drastically wrong with it? My guess is probably the latter of the two scenarios which I just laid out. That being said, where do you think those feelings came from? Do you think you evolved into an emotional remorseful being? Or did humans always have these emotional traits? Maybe they were there from the beginning? Maybe they were built into us? As for sociopaths and psychos, their mental condition has nothing to do with evolution (duh....); it's a genetic defect they suffer from. But I believe you already stated that in your first post, so why contradict yourself again by saying their condition is a state of their botched evolutionary process? Well, that's all I have, hope you enjoyed it....

Peace

-Taejoon

[Tock]

There are two lines of scientific and logical reasoning you can take on the issue:

1. It's murder and must be stopped....

2. It's murder and I'm okay with it....

An interesting question is
whether or not it's ok to abort, say, an hour before birth and why/why not, and compare that answer with
whether or not it's ok to abort a day before birth, and why/why not, and compare that answer with
whether or not it's ok to abort a week, a month, two months, 3,4, 5, 6, 7, 8 months before birth, or even
whether or not it's ok to abort an hour, or a minute, or even a second after conception, and why.

I kinda think that as long as society "sees" fetuses as being fundamentally different than freshly minted babies, abortion won't be considered as murder. But when that difference starts to blur, and people who have the abortion beleive that what they are doing is murder and do it anyway, that's when society starts to have problems.
Odd way to think of it . . . Abortion is ok as long as fetuses aren't people, it's murder if they are. Nothing more than a democratically established moral standard.

--Tock

[palme]

An interesting question is
whether or not it's ok to abort, say, an hour before birth and why/why not, and compare that answer with
whether or not it's ok to abort a day before birth, and why/why not, and compare that answer with
whether or not it's ok to abort a week, a month, two months, 3,4, 5, 6, 7, 8 months before birth, or even
whether or not it's ok to abort an hour, or a minute, or even a second after conception, and why.

I kinda think that as long as society "sees" fetuses as being fundamentally different than freshly minted babies, abortion won't be considered as murder. But when that difference starts to blur, and people who have the abortion beleive that what they are doing is murder and do it anyway, that's when society starts to have problems.
Odd way to think of it . . . Abortion is ok as long as fetuses aren't people, it's murder if they are. Nothing more than a democratically established moral standard.

--Tock

Would you say it's a personality mather? A fetus dosent have a personality but a baby does. Thats why i dont consider it murder and probly why people are ok with it, they dont "know" the fetus.

[bermich]

Wow,,,, i've never heard that.........pulling out is killing..... you must have been raised catholic..??

Personnally............it is my business... when my tax dollars go to kill other people.........children......or pay to raise them to adulthood.........


So.......... indeed it is my business.... when it's my money.........



but i do feel that way.........

Thats a joke. If you go by that reasoning then EVERYTHING is EVERYONES business. My taxes pay for the roads you drive on. Does that mean I get to ride in your truck whenever I want?
Yeah, Your 5 cents gives you personal access to dileberate on someone elses business. That tax thing was reachin'

I wasnt raised catholic. I wasnt raised in a religious family. I just know most of the views and such. Mormans and catholics, etc.


Taken from one of my other posts. CHINA. They have a great plan implimented. Its called: ONE CHILD PER FAMILY and even then, you need to get permission first. If you are pregnant without permission, the child is aborted. That country is gonna give the U.S. a run for its money in the next decade. They dont need to put up with any of this liberal bullshlt. They dont need to listen to religious orginizations whining about beliefs and filing lawsuits trying to get things like roe vs wade overturned. I think Im gonna move to China.

[Taejoon]

Odd way to think of it . . . Abortion is ok as long as fetuses aren't people, it's murder if they are. Nothing more than a democratically established moral standard.

--Tock

You hit the nail on the head. It's a moral standard that's been established by the masses, nothing more, nothing less. Excellent point....

Peace

-Taejoon

[Taejoon]

CHINA. They have a great plan implimented. Its called: ONE CHILD PER FAMILY and even then, you need to get permission first. If you are pregnant without permission, the child is aborted. That country is gonna give the U.S. a run for its money in the next decade. They dont need to put up with any of this liberal bullshlt. They dont need to listen to religious orginizations whining about beliefs and filing lawsuits trying to get things like roe vs wade overturned. I think Im gonna move to China.

Let me know what the standard of living is like over there. I hear it's really nice... I sincerely hope you're not serious, but then again, who am I to judge....

Peace

-Taejoon

[Mart651]

I will send you a ticket. Enjoy ****ting in a hole in the middle of the floor.

Thats a joke. If you go by that reasoning then EVERYTHING is EVERYONES business. My taxes pay for the roads you drive on. Does that mean I get to ride in your truck whenever I want?
Yeah, Your 5 cents gives you personal access to dileberate on someone elses business. That tax thing was reachin'

I wasnt raised catholic. I wasnt raised in a religious family. I just know most of the views and such. Mormans and catholics, etc.


Taken from one of my other posts. CHINA. They have a great plan implimented. Its called: ONE CHILD PER FAMILY and even then, you need to get permission first. If you are pregnant without permission, the child is aborted. That country is gonna give the U.S. a run for its money in the next decade. They dont need to put up with any of this liberal bullshlt. They dont need to listen to religious orginizations whining about beliefs and filing lawsuits trying to get things like roe vs wade overturned. I think Im gonna move to China.

[spywizard]

I like China's promotion of birth controll...

too bad the infintile death rate for female children is almost 75%... that is they are killed at birth if they are female.. that way a male child can be born..

and for the roads.... no.. not my truck.. but yes the roads...

You keep spouting extreme opinions based on religious constraints.. but you don't know them???? Morman and Catholics.??? now that's a reach....

anyway.. i knew if we looked hard enough... we would agree on somethin..

In China the female has less value.. thus she is killed at birth... the government doesn't controll that.. families do... and they can have more children... they are just taxed on them.. they are a drain on the countries resources..

Thats a joke. If you go by that reasoning then EVERYTHING is EVERYONES business. My taxes pay for the roads you drive on. Does that mean I get to ride in your truck whenever I want?
Yeah, Your 5 cents gives you personal access to dileberate on someone elses business. That tax thing was reachin'

I wasnt raised catholic. I wasnt raised in a religious family. I just know most of the views and such. Mormans and catholics, etc.


Taken from one of my other posts. CHINA. They have a great plan implimented. Its called: ONE CHILD PER FAMILY and even then, you need to get permission first. If you are pregnant without permission, the child is aborted. That country is gonna give the U.S. a run for its money in the next decade. They dont need to put up with any of this liberal bullshlt. They dont need to listen to religious orginizations whining about beliefs and filing lawsuits trying to get things like roe vs wade overturned. I think Im gonna move to China.

[tryingtogetbig]

I do believe that once a fetus has developed, an abortion is simply killing a baby. Just because you don't "know" the fetus like you do a 1 day old baby doesn't make the circumstances any different. There is just less reality involved for people when they haven't gotten to see the baby yet.

But, there are so many children in this world that will never have a chance for a rewarding life because of the people responsible for bringing them into this world... adding more unwanted children would only make this situation worse. That seems really unfair to me....unwanted children....should be a law against that.

I hate the fact that people can be so irresponsible. Preventing pregnancy is not rocket science....but for some people it sure seems to be. Abortion as a form of birth control is wrong...anyone that gets pregnant and has to get an abortion deserves the moral regret they will suffer the rest of their lives...I don't have sympathy for these people. The pregnancy should have been prevented to begin with...but once again we have people not worried about the consequences of their actions.

I think there should be madatory castration. There is a huge portion of the population that will never try to prevent a pregnancy, even though they will not ever have the means to support their offspring. It disgusts me. Do what you want to yourself....why fuk it up for a child, fetus, etc.?

peace,

ttgb

[palme]

I like China's promotion of birth controll...

too bad the infintile death rate for female children is almost 75%... that is they are killed at birth if they are female.. that way a male child can be born..

and for the roads.... no.. not my truck.. but yes the roads...

You keep spouting extreme opinions based on religious constraints.. but you don't know them???? Morman and Catholics.??? now that's a reach....

anyway.. i knew if we looked hard enough... we would agree on somethin..

In China the female has less value.. thus she is killed at birth... the government doesn't controll that.. families do... and they can have more children... they are just taxed on them.. they are a drain on the countries resources..

They arent worth less, it's b/c they hafto pay homefee when the daugther gets married that they kill the female babys. All about the bling bling

[spywizard]

yep....... and a man will earn money and take care of mom/dad grandma/granddad...

it's a different world..

They arent worth less, it's b/c they hafto pay homefee when the daugther gets married that they kill the female babys. All about the bling bling

[palme]

yep....... and a man will earn money and take care of mom/dad grandma/granddad...

it's a different world..

Acctualy it happends in Africa and in the middle east aswell. Different culture, different settings.

[spywizard]

Same effect though........... Human life is devalued.... and a value is placed on an idea, or projected gain...

sad but true..

has been that way for a long time though........

Acctualy it happends in Africa and in the middle east aswell. Different culture, different settings.

[markas214]

I didn't ignore it you pin head.

-Taejoon

If some one disagrees with you are they a pin head? If that is your opinion then there is no need to continue. I stand by all my statements and repeat my opinion that you are wrong. What it really comes down to is this. Are you willing to be the executioner of 1 year old children? Do you condone such action? Is it acceptable in human society?

[Tock]

too bad the infintile death rate for female children is almost 75%... that is they are killed at birth if they are female.. that way a male child can be born..
..

They keep that up for any length of time, and China is gonna turn into a gay wonderland . . . .
--Tock

[spywizard]

Or die out as a inbreed nationality................

They keep that up for any length of time, and China is gonna turn into a gay wonderland . . . .
--Tock

[Cycleon]

Or go to war with an army of young men who cannot have families so they decide to invade somewhere else - thats what Mao had in mind anyway

[Taejoon]

If some one disagrees with you are they a pin head? If that is your opinion then there is no need to continue. I stand by all my statements and repeat my opinion that you are wrong. What it really comes down to is this. Are you willing to be the executioner of 1 year old children? Do you condone such action? Is it acceptable in human society?

No, you're not a pin head because you disagree with me, you're a pin head because you didn't understand that I directly addressed your question regarding "humanity". It seems you missed the boat all together, it went over your head....

You can't stand by your statements, because I proved them all false.

What you should say is this, "I Markas214 stand by all of the unjustified and false statements I made about the world at large, because they make me feel better about my life." "I further acknowledge that my beliefs are not in any way, shape or form grounded in reality, but choose to hold fast to them anyway, because I am a week minded person that cannot deal with the reality of what abortion really is." You see, that would be a fitting end to this debate, because that is really where you stand, whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

As to whether or not executing a 1 year will ever be excepted in society.... Incase you forgot, abortion is still legal, children are being executed everyday, in this country and around the rest of the world. So, the answer to your question is "Yes", it is socially acceptable and has been for many years. People just refuse to fess up to what it is they are really doing.... This is because they are weak and cannot deal with the true selfishness of their own actions.....

Peace

-Taejoon

[takara]

No, you're not a pin head because you disagree with me, you're a pin head because you didn't understand that I directly addressed your question regarding "humanity". It seems you missed the boat all together, it went over your head....

You can't stand by your statements, because I proved them all false.

What you should say is this, "I Markas214 stand by all of the unjustified and false statements I made about the world at large, because they make me feel better about my life." "I further acknowledge that my beliefs are not in any way, shape or form grounded in reality, but choose to hold fast to them anyway, because I am a week minded person that cannot deal with the reality of what abortion really is." You see, that would be a fitting end to this debate, because that is really where you stand, whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

As to whether or not executing a 1 year will ever be excepted in society.... Incase you forgot, abortion is still legal, children are being executed everyday, in this country and around the rest of the world. So, the answer to your question is "Yes", it is socially acceptable and has been for many years. People just refuse to fess up to what it is they are really doing.... This is because they are weak and cannot deal with the true selfishness of their own actions.....

Peace

-Taejoon

Ah jeez. Here we go.

[Cycleon]

I have to admit I cant figure out what is more disturbing:

a. That most proabortionists delude themseleves into thinking that what they are doing is somehow NOT murdering a living human because they want to do what is convenient for them without thinking of themselves as monsters.

b. That proabortionists are perfectly well aware that it is murdering a human life and dont care as long as it fits their convenience and allows them to be better off materially in their own lives - and not caring that such thinking is that of a monster

[Taejoon]

I have to admit I cant figure out what is more disturbing:

a. That most proabortionists delude themseleves into thinking that what they are doing is somehow NOT murdering a living human because they want to do what is convenient for them without thinking of themselves as monsters.

b. That proabortionists are perfectly well aware that it is murdering a human life and dont care as long as it fits their convenience and allows them to be better off materially in their own lives - and not caring that such thinking is that of a monster

They are both equally disturbing, and it doesn't matter which line of reasoning one takes, because the end result is still a dead human being.... Whether you're in denial, or acceptance of it, a life has still been taken, that's the disturbing part....

Peace

-Taejoon

[markas214]

No, you're not a pin head because you disagree with me, I'm a pin head because you didn't understand that I directly addressed your question regarding "humanity". It seems you missed the boat all together, it went over your head.... "


You can't stand by your statements, because I proved them all . What you should say is this, "I Markas214 stand by all of the unjustified and false statements I made about the world at large, because they make me feel better about my life." "I further acknowledge that my beliefs are not in any way, shape or form grounded in reality, but choose to hold fast to them anyway, because I am a week minded person that cannot deal with the reality of what abortion really is." You see, that would be a fitting end to this debate, because that is really where you stand, whether you want to acknowledge it or not."
"As to whether or not executing a 1 year will ever be excepted in society....
Incase you forgot, abortion is still legal, children are being executed everyday, in this country and around the rest of the world. So, the answer to your question is "Yes", it is socially acceptable and has been for many years. People just refuse to fess up to what it is they are really doing.... This is because they are weak and cannot deal with the true selfishness of their own actions....."

-Taejoon

You are such an expert aren't you? The only one who believes you"proved" my statements false is you. I work in a place where I see life and death on a daily basis. Have you ever stood next to a bed when a 10 month old takes their last breath. I dare you to do so and not feel sadness. If you saw even a tenth of what I've seen you may feel differently about euthenasia. What do you do for a living? I would imagine a job with very little contact with others. You really do display charateristics of a sociopath? Do you consider yourself a loner? Do you ever fantasize about killing your boss or co-workers? I wouldn't doubt it. So answer my previous questions. I will grant for the sake of argument that killing a fetus no matter how young is a brutal murder. But, you seem to be of the mind that people should not only have the right to kill unborn children but also their own born children, mother, father, sister with Down Syndrome or anyone else you believe is a burden to society. Again would you be willing to be the executioner? Is this behavior acceptable in a humane society?

[Taejoon]

You are such an expert aren't you? The only one who believes you"proved" my statements false is you. I work in a place where I see life and death on a daily basis. Have you ever stood next to a bed when a 10 month old takes their last breath. I dare you to do so and not feel sadness. If you saw even a tenth of what I've seen you may feel differently about euthenasia. What do you do for a living? I would imagine a job with very little contact with others. You really do display charateristics of a sociopath? Do you consider yourself a loner? Do you ever fantasize about killing your boss or co-workers? I wouldn't doubt it. So answer my previous questions. I will grant for the sake of argument that killing a fetus no matter how young is a brutal murder. But, you seem to be of the mind that people should not only have the right to kill unborn children but also their own born children, mother, father, sister with Down Syndrome or anyone else you believe is a burden to society. Again would you be willing to be the executioner? Is this behavior acceptable in a humane society?

I have no boss, I have no co-workers.... I am self-employed.... I am a what most people would commonly refer to as a 'hitman'. I take lives for money. I'm also ex-military, and have seen many horrible things in my life, things that have caused me much pain and sadness, just as you have. I never said that murder or abortion didn't bother me. I never said that euthanasia didn't bother me, all I said was that under certain circumstances it should be legal. I never said what those circumstances should be either, incase you're going to try and call me out on that one. Am I a sociopath? No, I was not born this way.... I am the way I am because of the experiences that I have undergone throughout my life, I have grown to become the person I am today, there is nothing wrong with me. I just think differently than you do, for obvious reasons, those reasons being that the experiences of my life have been far, far different than yours....

Peace

-Taejoon

[Spoon]

Its a case to case basis. Im for it if the mother's life is at risk. All other cases are a NO! Whatever your personal beliefs or morals are, i definetely think that people who get abortions on account that they got some chick preggy or they dont want it pretty lame! Always use protection, never have irresponsible sex. if you do then be prepared to bite the bullet. Just my two cents

Spoon

[Tock]

I have to admit I cant figure out what is more disturbing:

a. That most proabortionists delude themseleves into thinking that what they are doing is somehow NOT murdering a living human because they want to do what is convenient for them without thinking of themselves as monsters.

b. That proabortionists are perfectly well aware that it is murdering a human life and dont care as long as it fits their convenience and allows them to be better off materially in their own lives - and not caring that such thinking is that of a monster

Um, what about people who are not pro-abortionists but only pro-choice?
There are people who opine that this is not the legitimate province for government to meddle in, and that it should attend to matters like balancing the budget and waging wars.
Are these people similarly deluded for wishing for a smaller, less intrusive government, or should they mend their ways and encourage government to correct our individual inadequacies?
--Tock

[Tock]

Or go to war with an army of young men who cannot have families so they decide to invade somewhere else - thats what Mao had in mind anyway

What, a Gay army?
Nice idea . . . but somehow, I don't think Mao had that in mind . . .
--Tock

[Superhuman]

They keep that up for any length of time, and China is gonna turn into a gay wonderland . . . .
--Tock

hahaha

[markas214]

[QUOTE=Taejoon]I have no boss, I have no co-workers.... I am self-employed.... I am a what most people would commonly refer to as a 'hitman'. I take lives for money. I'm also ex-military, and have seen many horrible things in my life, things that have caused me much pain and sadness, just as you have. I never said that murder or abortion didn't bother me. I never said that euthanasia didn't bother me, all I said was that under certain circumstances it should be legal. I never said what those circumstances should be either, incase you're going to try and call me out on that one. Am I a sociopath? No, I was not born this way.... I am the way I am because of the experiences that I have undergone throughout my life, I have grown to become the person I am today, there is nothing wrong with me. I just think differently than you do, for obvious reasons, those reasons being that the experiences of my life have been far, far different than yours...."


That's some messed up sh*t. I agree absolutely that we are all corrupted in in some sense by our experiences. It's hard to be objective when we are looking through our personal perspective and the biases that come with it. I also comatose people come into the ER from nursing homes for treatment of pneumonia and such. These people are dead in mind and spirit and all that makes us unique as humans is gone. Their families keep their bodies alive. That's got to be the most pittiful thing there is and talk about a burden to society. They will typically cost over $100,000 a year to feed and care for. Death would be a kindness in these cicumstances. I don't say euthanize them but simple stop feeding the body and stop treatment to allow the natural progression to death occur. You ask where I get my values. My mother is a kind and intelligent woman my dad pretty much a selfish prick. I saw the positive of the two and that is what imprinted on my mind. I try to keep an open mind and respect the opinions of others even if I believe they are wrong. Of course I'll try to convince them otherwise and see the "truth".

[Skin-and-Bone]

When we say "murder", what are talking about? To me murder has been illegal all my life, so abortion wouldn't be murder by definition.

v. mur·dered, mur·der·ing, mur·ders
v. tr.
1. To kill (another human) unlawfully.
2. To kill brutally or inhumanly.

The way I see it is, murder is illegal, abortion is legal, so abortion and murder are different things. What you're really asking, is if abortion is wrong. The argument that it's it's wrong at 8 months, but the morning after pill is ok, doesn't really slide with me. Look at these possible scenarios.

a) I have sex, I use a condom.
b) I have sex, I don't use a condom, she uses the morning after pill.
c) I have sex, I don't use a condom, she doesn't use the morning after pill, she aborts the "baby" at 2 months.
d) I have sex, I don't use a condom, she doesn't use the morning after pill, she doesn't abort the baby after 2 months, she aborts it at 5 months.

Now, assuming all of these acts of sex are at the exact same time, with the exact same woman, am I not stopping the exact same child from existing? To me, the only difference is that I'm doing it at different stages. You could even go further back and suggest that I'd be preventing the same child's existence if I didn't have sex at all that night.

[Skin-and-Bone]

In case you were wondering, I don't have a problem with abortion or the morning after pill. What I do have a problem with is people who are selective about what they're pro-life with. I also think there are a lot of living human beings that I would prefer to be dead, if I was put in the situation of having to look after them.

[Cycleon]

Skin-and-Bone - why stop at months? why not
e) I have sex, I don't use a condom, she doesn't use the morning after pill, she doesn't abort the baby after 5 months, she waits untill it is 6 months old and thinks it is just too much trouble to handle a baby and slits it throat.

and the point is that abortion meets definition #2 - you are dehumanizing the baby so that you can kill it without remorse

[Skin-and-Bone]

Actually, I think there are circumstances in which I wouldn't mind a human being of any age being killed. What the law is ok with is a different thing.

[Taejoon]

That's some messed up sh*t. I agree absolutely that we are all corrupted in in some sense by our experiences. It's hard to be objective when we are looking through our personal perspective and the biases that come with it. I also comatose people come into the ER from nursing homes for treatment of pneumonia and such. These people are dead in mind and spirit and all that makes us unique as humans is gone. Their families keep their bodies alive. That's got to be the most pittiful thing there is and talk about a burden to society. They will typically cost over $100,000 a year to feed and care for. Death would be a kindness in these cicumstances. I don't say euthanize them but simple stop feeding the body and stop treatment to allow the natural progression to death occur. You ask where I get my values. My mother is a kind and intelligent woman my dad pretty much a selfish prick. I saw the positive of the two and that is what imprinted on my mind. I try to keep an open mind and respect the opinions of others even if I believe they are wrong. Of course I'll try to convince them otherwise and see the "truth".

Well, you know more about me than you need to, and it seems we have found some type of common ground as far as how we feel about abortion. That being said, this seems like a good time to let nature run it's course and have this conversation come to a close.....

Peace

-Taejoon

[decadbal]

my debate is simple, if you kill a pregnant woman, accident, intentional, eitherway, your charged with two murders, no way around it, no matter how far along she is, so when its in defense, its ok to say the few cells, are alive, but when you want to kill the child, its ok to say its not a person. im against it, so many ppl cant have children, if you arnt responsible enough to take care of what you created, then someone else will. so man up and be responsible, not a murderer.

[Superhuman]

man I am tired of this F***ING thread. Everybody justs twists everything around to suit their argument. Nobody will win this. Eventually, enough people will come together and realize that it is murder, and someday people will realize the idea of celibacy. If anybody is PRO-LIFE, PRO-FAMILY, or ANTI-GAY MARRIAGE here, then visit http://www.afa.net --> The American Family Association's website.

[markas214]

Well, you know more about me than you need to, and it seems we have found some type of common ground as far as how we feel about abortion. That being said, this seems like a good time to let nature run it's course and have this conversation come to a close.....

Peace

-Taejoon

Agreed.

[Tock]

man I am tired of this F***ING thread.

Well . . . there's a simple solution to your discomfort . . . You could just avoid clicking on these posts, yes?

-Tock
always glad to help a bro . . .

[Cycleon]

such an altruist you are tock


But I notice no one has refuted the basic argument - or hardly even tried - it is simply murder for convenience - some decieve themselves so that they feel better and others simply dont care

[Skin-and-Bone]

such an altruist you are tock


But I notice no one has refuted the basic argument - or hardly even tried - it is simply murder for convenience - some decieve themselves so that they feel better and others simply dont care

As long as you keep using the word murder, you're just incorrect. Governments decide what murder is, and send people to prison when they commit it. That's not my opinion. That's a fact. The second definition of murder you'll find is something along the lines of "brutal" and "merciless" killing. This definition falls down because people have different opinions on what's brutal, and what isn't. Murder is "Unlawful" (that's the important word) killing.