Abortion: should the gov't ban it?

[Tock]

Another question I'm curious to know what y'all think . . .

1) Some folks say Abortion should be illegal, plain and simple.

2) Others say they personally don't like it, but the decision should be up to the individuals involved, not politicians.

3) Others rely on it as a form of birth control, and want it to be legal, and if not, they'll get one illegally. Screw the gov't.

Personally, I think the government should stick to fixing potholes and running the Army and Justice system, should keep out of people's personal lives.
But, what do you think?

[palme]

I agree with you on this on Tock, its something between the parents the governement should stay out of it.

[SpunHoney]

~Stay the Hell out of my buisness is what i say!!!~

[takara]

I think the choice of having an abortion or not should be left to the person who is considering one. People will always find ways to rid a pregnancy if they really want to. The gov't can stop abortion as a medical procedure but they can't stop a woman from getting rid of a fetus(and that is by any means possible)... i however feel that it should be illegal to have an abortion when you are mid way into your second tri-mester, because that is when a fetus has evolved into the form of an actual baby and to have an abortion would mean dismembering the baby.

Peace,

Takara

[USfighterFC]

I dont know its such a tough call. I do believe there should be no partial birth abortions unless the woman is in dire condition and will possibly die or something. Other than that I guess it should be left up to other people's personal beliefs.

[palme]

I think the choice of having an abortion or not should be left to the person who is considering one. People will always find ways to rid a pregnancy if they really want to. The gov't can stop abortion as a medical procedure but they can't stop a woman from getting rid of a fetus(and that is by any means possible)... i however feel that it should be illegal to have an abortion when you are mid way into your second tri-mester, because that is when a fetus has evolved into the form of an actual baby and to have an abortion would mean dismembering the baby.

Peace,

Takara

True, it's what Irish women did before, they went to England and got abortions, i even remember boats outside of Irish water were they performed abortions.

Dont know if the laws are changed now, cant remember.

[Cycleon]

The question is simple - if it is a "fetus" ie. just another piece of the "mother's" flesh then of course it should be her sole choice as to what to do with her own body - if it is not, but is actually "alive", then in effect it is a separate person from the "mother" and has his or her own rights as well as those of the mothers interests - "terminating" some one that is alive is nothing less than murder - is killing a retarded child less than murder because they are not mentally capable of understanding what is occurring? - at what point does it cease to be a piece of flesh and become a human? if you go and punch the pregnant woman in the womb and cause a miscarriage of what would have otherwise been a successfull birth, is that not murder? so, one assumes that the only reason that it is deemed not to be murder when one kills a child in the womb is that it is not wanted.

Now for those who are gung ho pro lifers - if roe V wade ever is overturned, you had best think of the reallity of how to help single mothers who have had to carry to term, provide better adoption facilities (and this is good because now we import babies from everwhere because we dont have enough here) - ie. think of logistics if roe V wade is abolished and perhaps each state has its own laws on it.

[Cycleon]

btw: best way to stop unwanted pregnancy is to code the DNA and permanently make the FATHER responsible for the child untill he is 18, ie the government will track you down and make you pay for any expenses he incurs, garnering wages, forclosing on assets. You would quickly see men taking responsiblity to make SURE that it did not happen unless it was really wanted.

[SV-1]

Tock does your body convert heated discussion to lean muscle or something? Those are the only kind of threads you start.

[SV-1]

BTW I'm pro choice. As a man unless it was my child and it never will be because I'm fixed, I feel it isn't my place to say. JMHO

[Warrior]

If I had to be born into a life where my conception was a result of my mother being rapped by a serial killer who was eventually sentenced to death row (my Dad)... and she was living off wellfare and social security since being declared mentally incapable of holding a job due to being mollested several times as a kid - with nothing to offer me monetarily, spiritually nor capable of providing any type of family-orientated household... while Johns came in and out of her life and she kept having more kids to raise her assistance from the state... I'd rather be aborted

[Skin-and-Bone]

It should definately be left as a choice for the parent. I'm tired of listening to people compaign against abortion. If they're so enthusiastic about mothers keeping unwanted babies, why don't they ****ing raise them themselves? I also don't agree with this **** aobut unborn babies being human lives. They're just cells. The potential for human life is irrelevant, because if you subscribe to that theory you'd also have to consider that every time I wear a condom or jerk off, a potential human life has lost it's chance to live.

[Cycleon]

Warrior - and that type of situation represents about 1 out of 10000 abortions that are carried out - and it is quickly remedied because the women knows very early on that she was raped, can take a moringing after pill - now what is your real argument - because that is not why women are having abortions - its not rape.

[Warrior]

Warrior - and that type of situation represents about 1 out of 10000 abortions that are carried out - and it is quickly remedied because the women knows very early on that she was raped, can take a moringing after pill - now what is your real argument - because that is not why women are having abortions - its not rape.

I was just saying that there are circumstances that it may be in the best interest of the person about to be born into the world. I would rather have been aborted than to be brought up in a f'ed up life with little chance to turn out productive and live a happy life...

I am totally prochoice. IMO - any mother (and father for that matter) should have the opportunity to abort an unplanned pregnancy soon after conception...

[BIG TEXAN]

I am a pro choice... I do not agree with abortion in most cases but I see more bad coming from making it illegal than good. So I do believe that it should be up to the individuals involved and not some fat ****in politician that's sitting pretty in D.C.

[sin]

im pro choice, but ive had to endure looking at pics of aborted fetuses with different types of problems in a physiology class. that is the single worst thing i have ever seen in my life. pics of babies laying on a table in pieces doesnt leave the brain too easily.

[Taejoon]

The government should stay out of it, religion should stay out of it. Keep abortion legal, absolutely. The real question, when it comes to determining whether or not it's murder is "When does life begin?" Since no one has been able to answer that question conclusively and convincingly in a court of law, abortion will be kept legal, and that is a good thing.

Peace

-Taejoon

[Cycleon]

It should definately be left as a choice for the parent. I'm tired of listening to people compaign against abortion. If they're so enthusiastic about mothers keeping unwanted babies, why don't they ****ing raise them themselves? I also don't agree with this **** aobut unborn babies being human lives. They're just cells. The potential for human life is irrelevant, because if you subscribe to that theory you'd also have to consider that every time I wear a condom or jerk off, a potential human life has lost it's chance to live.

Thats right, just a couple of cells - thats why its all ok, why its not murdering a baby for someone's convenience, because they wanted to **** around but didnt want to pay the price. Thats why the woman has a choice because its just like getting her tonsils cut out, just a piece of flesh, not a living human being.

Now if you can look at this and tell me it is just a piece of flesh - then you are right, its just like jerking off, this potential is irrelevant.

[takara]

WOW!!! That is the most horrible thing I have ever seen. It tears me apart to see something like that.

Takara

[Rugby13]

I have to agree with Cycleon....I'm against abortion. I can't remember when but i know it's only a couple of days after the egg has been fertilized that there is actually a heartbeat. That's another life we're killing people..... If you say you're for abortion then what's the diff between aborting a baby at 4 or whatever months or just waiting untill the baby's born and leaving him/her in a bag somewhere in the bush to die?? A person is a person is a person, doesn't matter where or how small they are.

[groverman1]

Now how did I know Tock was going to answer that way,hmmmmmmmmm.

[Cycleon]

WOW!!! That is the most horrible thing I have ever seen. It tears me apart to see something like that.

Takara

believe me when I tell you that picture was one of the nicest ones that I could post - I had just eaten and could not bear to post others that are far more disturbing.

Before any mother should have an abortion - she should have to have an ultrasound and hear that heartbeat, to see what she is going to allow them to kill.

At the same time, I do believe that the morining after pill should be OTC and that better ways of counseling and ensuring help for single mothers is available - most especially by ensuring that the father cannot excape responsibility.

[ttuPrincess]

The morning after pill being made OTC would only lead to an overusage by irresponsable teens who shouldn't be having sex anyway. Then in a few years we would be having the same discussion on if that should be banned also. it's the greatest invention in the world, but learn to use a condom. and for those men who think its just a majic pill think again.... the cramps and vomiting that many girls recieve from taking it is just down right painful. Just wrap your ****...

Now as for abortions.. no the gov't has no right, up until a certain point in time, to tell me if I should have to concieve a baby or not. But if I was being stupid, or careless then I should have to pay for my mistake. But me being 22 right now and without a job, being supported by my mother, am in not condition to bring a child into this world. The pill is not 100% and if I was to get pregnate, with the aproval of my signifigant other, I would have an abortion, because I am in no way capibale or ready to care for another life (hell I can hadly take care of my own). So why should I be forced to bring this child into the world who would have to go without and possibly suffer for many years to come.

Darn contriversial stuff.. my bloods all heated up now....

[Taejoon]

Now as for abortions.. no the gov't has no right, up until a certain point in time, to tell me if I should have to concieve a baby or not. But if I was being stupid, or careless then I should have to pay for my mistake. But me being 22 right now and without a job, being supported by my mother, am in not condition to bring a child into this world. The pill is not 100% and if I was to get pregnate, with the aproval of my signifigant other, I would have an abortion, because I am in no way capibale or ready to care for another life (hell I can hadly take care of my own). So why should I be forced to bring this child into the world who would have to go without and possibly suffer for many years to come.

Darn contriversial stuff.. my bloods all heated up now....

My thoughts exactly.... This is exactly why abortion should be kept legal, regardless of how many nasty pictures people see. That pic that Cycleon posted, all though disturbing, is still no where as disturbing as the thought of that same child being brought up in a world where it's parents didn't want it. Un-planned pregnancies are sh**ty situations that a lot of people have to deal with at one time or another. Abortion is not the ideal solution (there isn't one), but it's the lesser of two evils, and is definately the right choice for the child in the long run....

Peace

-Taejoon

[Tock]

Tock does your body convert heated discussion to lean muscle or something? Those are the only kind of threads you start.

Ever see "The McGloughlin Group" on PBS? A moderator throws out a topic to a bunch of diehard liberals and conservatives, and they all debate away. Lots of fun to watch.
Y'know those questions where they ask "If you could have dinner with anyone in history, who would it be?" One of my favorite combinations would be Billy Graham and Madelyn Murray O'Hair, or some Pope and Madelyn. Oh yah, lively conversation, for sure.
Other topics tend to be of milder interest, and I get restless and bored when conversations drift off to topics like golf or fishing. May as well watch TV awards for the best computer sorting programs of the year. Ugh.

I suppose I could start a new thread on ways to roast chicken, or on how tight one should tie their shoes, but my guess is no one really gives a rats ass about that kind of stuff. Hence, my picks.
Don't have anything else all that controversial at the moment . . . might do monthly Presidential Election polls, and chart how feelings rise and fall with the passage of time. Or not.
--Tock

[Cycleon]

I do agree that the morning after pill is something that can be abused as well but at least it is available to solve problems before they start - and yes, htere are plenty of stupid people who would use it as bcontrol and if continued use of it sterilized stupid people that would be fine with me.

Point is - once it is a baby, it is no longer your sole choice - the state does actually have some say so because it is one of its citizens living inside you - now when does it become a baby is the question? obviously, the one in the picture above certainly was.

[SV-1]

I suppose I could start a new thread on ways to roast chicken, or on how tight one should tie their shoes.
--Tock

Winny Tock, a can you drink winny thread. I'm tired of just hearing yes you can. You could start a humdinger of a debate.

[ttuPrincess]

I totally agree.. one you reach I'd say the end of the 1st trimester maybe middle of the 2nd, then you have known long enought to make your decision and do something about it. After that point, the baby has a right to live and be a happy healthy person, and once born can be given, through adoption, to a wonderful home.
The topic of abortion, up until there is an actual formed human being in the tummy, is should the mother be a mother, and is she ready to go through what life now has in store for her. After there is a human life form there, it should no longer be the mothers choice. That baby has every right to live. It is not its fault that the mother took to long to decide if she was ready or not,because that things coming out.

[Tock]

Now how did I know Tock was going to answer that way,hmmmmmmmmm.

Actually, I think you'd be surprised to learn that I'm not all that supportive of abortion.
I wonder if the manner in which people treat each other is reflected in the manner in which they treat infants. I suppose that concern extends to pro-capital punishment folks as well. I can't really make anything other than suppostions based on my own direct observations, but I get the feeling that folks who value individual life (aside from the folks who only parrot church teachings) would be opposed to both abortion and capital punishment, those who don't fully appreciate the value of life would be less likely to object.

Since I don't really know, and since there is no reason why my opinion should trump someone else's opinion, I may have my doubts about abortion, but there is no doubt in my mind that the government (just a bunch of idiots who can't balance a simple budget or keep the **** potholes filled) should not have the last word on this. Ought to be the sole province of each individual.

That's my opinion, anyway . . . but, as I don't really have a dog in this fight, I can't say I've given the matter all that much thought as the charming ladies on this board . . .

--Tock

[takara]

The morning after pill is a good thing if used once or twice. It has saved a lot of people from bad situations. However, it should not be abused and looked at as a form of birth-control. Because birth-control is something that I see is used constantly. I think there should be a liscence to breed.

Cycleon, when does someone actually become a citizen? I thought it was always after they are born? Because, if I remember right to be lets say the President you need to be born in America. Just because he was concieved in and lived in his moms stomach for 8 out of the 9 months in America and then born in another country, he would not be an American citizen which then would mean he couldn't qualifi for presidency. So how can you really consider an unborn baby a citizen. It belongs to no one except the parents.

Peace,

Takara

[Cycleon]

My thoughts exactly.... This is exactly why abortion should be kept legal, regardless of how many nasty pictures people see. That pic that Cycleon posted, all though disturbing, is still no where as disturbing as the thought of that same child being brought up in a world where it's parents didn't want it. Un-planned pregnancies are sh**ty situations that a lot of people have to deal with at one time or another. Abortion is not the ideal solution (there isn't one), but it's the lesser of two evils, and is definately the right choice for the child in the long run....

Peace

-Taejoon

Ok, so along the same line of reasoning - that infantcide is actually a mercy killing - why should we not go around and murder any children say 1 yo and younger whose parents are in dispute and who are with a single mother barely hanging on - think how freed up the woman would be - that is woman's empowerment indeed - instead of being enslaved to that hungry trusting mouth to feed, she can now go out and be part of the work force, living life to the fullest - likely of course whoring it up with some tomcat who knocks her up again (but then, we can just kill that one too!) - all the while saving that poor baby from having to live life with that crappy situation - in fact, why not desolve the mother of any responsibility in life at all? the father too? that way everyone can just f uck whoever they like and its all ok!

What a great concept - murder for the betterment of the person - why not extend that to people in mental institutions - surely they suffer terribly in their state - far better that we execute them and save the state money while easing thier pain!

Or better yet! retarded people or anyone with say.. less than 100 IQ! We could just test them very young and then those that didnt make the cut we could euthanize! think how that would ease their suffering! and as a side benefit we would begin to build a master race of smart people!

But how about handicapped people? we shouldnt be so cruel to leave those out now should we? I do think we should extend our mercy to them as well - what a great society we are going to have with this idea!

[BDTR]

So true cyc


http://www.abortiontv.com/AbortionPictures1.htm

believe me when I tell you that picture was one of the nicest ones that I could post - I had just eaten and could not bear to post others that are far more disturbing.

Before any mother should have an abortion - she should have to have an ultrasound and hear that heartbeat, to see what she is going to allow them to kill.

At the same time, I do believe that the morining after pill should be OTC and that better ways of counseling and ensuring help for single mothers is available - most especially by ensuring that the father cannot excape responsibility.

[Cycleon]

Cycleon, when does someone actually become a citizen? I thought it was always after they are born? Because, if I remember right to be lets say the President you need to be born in America. Just because he was concieved in and lived in his moms stomach for 8 out of the 9 months in America and then born in another country, he would not be an American citizen which then would mean he couldn't qualifi for presidency. So how can you really consider an unborn baby a citizen. It belongs to no one except the parents.

Peace,

Takara

well, that is true to a degree that usually the baby is considered a citizen wherever it is brought forth. However, there are many cases in which the state acts as if the unborn child of an American is also a citizen. Lets say I were to shoot you in the stomach when 6 months pregnant and it caused the baby to die. In a number of states the AG would prosecute the criminal for murder, not only acting on your behalf as the agrieved but on the behalf of the now dead baby, whom it considers to have had rights. There is indeed a debate on this in Congress as we speak to make this a national law.

[Taejoon]

Ok, so along the same line of reasoning - that infantcide is actually a mercy killing - why should we not go around and murder any children say 1 yo and younger whose parents are in dispute and who are with a single mother barely hanging on - think how freed up the woman would be - that is woman's empowerment indeed - instead of being enslaved to that hungry trusting mouth to feed, she can now go out and be part of the work force, living life to the fullest - likely of course whoring it up with some tomcat who knocks her up again (but then, we can just kill that one too!) - all the while saving that poor baby from having to live life with that crappy situation - in fact, why not desolve the mother of any responsibility in life at all? the father too? that way everyone can just f uck whoever they like and its all ok!

What a great concept - murder for the betterment of the person - why not extend that to people in mental institutions - surely they suffer terribly in their state - far better that we execute them and save the state money while easing thier pain!

Or better yet! retarded people or anyone with say.. less than 100 IQ! We could just test them very young and then those that didnt make the cut we could euthanize! think how that would ease their suffering! and as a side benefit we would begin to build a master race of smart people!

But how about handicapped people? we shouldnt be so cruel to leave those out now should we? I do think we should extend our mercy to them as well - what a great society we are going to have with this idea!

Hey bud, you said it, I didn't.... I would have absolutely no problem with the scenario you just laid out. I've adhered to the belief that handicapped/retarded people should be euthanized for quite some time. They're a burden to civilization and human progress. Un-wanted children fall into the same catagory. As for people whoring around and f**king whoever they want, they're gonna do it with or without abortion, with or without having options to give up their new additions to the world for adoption. So it really doesn't matter.... You ban abortion, the overall quality-of-life of the nation will suffer, and you'd also run into over population concerns, that is, if the ban was succesfully enforced.

Peace

-Taejoon

[Cycleon]

Hey bud, you said it, I didn't.... I would have absolutely no problem with the scenario you just laid out. I've adhered to the belief that handicapped/retarded people should be euthanized for quite some time. They're a burden to civilization and human progress. Un-wanted children fall into the same catagory. As for people whoring around and f**king whoever they want, they're gonna do it with or without abortion, with or without having options to give up their new additions to the world for adoption. So it really doesn't matter.... You ban abortion, the overall quality-of-life of the nation will suffer, and you'd also run into over population concerns, that is, if the ban was succesfully enforced.

Peace

-Taejoon

Great - an honest look at the reasoning behind the most common argument for abortion. Now it seems you have thought on this a bit so I would like to get an idea for about how old should we discriminate before assuming that they might become happy people? up to what age I mean? 3 yo, 4? % or 6? Kinda hard beyond that since a lot of people might get attached to them if they were around that long. I am just trying to get an idea of where you think it would be most useful to stop.

Oh, I am also just assuming that old people who get infirmed or anyone going into a coma should be treated the same - would save a lot of money for society to make these people happy to be sure!

[Commando_Barbi]

I dont know its such a tough call. I do believe there should be no partial birth abortions unless the woman is in dire condition and will possibly die or something. Other than that I guess it should be left up to other people's personal beliefs.

I am with you. I have a hard time with late term abortions...unless there's a medical emergency but believe even then other options should be exercised first if possible.

[thegorilla]

good luck

[spywizard]

Actually it's only been about the past 30 years or so that kids with special needs survived much past child birth....

think about it......... a child with mental, or physical issues were of no use to the family, and thus would be drowned, or starved, or killed outright.....

A child is a child... who has the right to kill someone?? without consiquence??

for even if a pregnancy is terminated because of health issues, or convinience of the woman............ a life is still stopped....

Has anyone ever spoken to someone who has had an abortion... likes years later?? I have................ she was messed up with guilt.........

Hey bud, you said it, I didn't.... I would have absolutely no problem with the scenario you just laid out. I've adhered to the belief that handicapped/retarded people should be euthanized for quite some time. They're a burden to civilization and human progress. Un-wanted children fall into the same catagory. As for people whoring around and f**king whoever they want, they're gonna do it with or without abortion, with or without having options to give up their new additions to the world for adoption. So it really doesn't matter.... You ban abortion, the overall quality-of-life of the nation will suffer, and you'd also run into over population concerns, that is, if the ban was succesfully enforced.

Peace

-Taejoon

[Taejoon]

Great - an honest look at the reasoning behind the most common argument for abortion. Now it seems you have thought on this a bit so I would like to get an idea for about how old should we discriminate before assuming that they might become happy people? up to what age I mean? 3 yo, 4? % or 6? Kinda hard beyond that since a lot of people might get attached to them if they were around that long. I am just trying to get an idea of where you think it would be most useful to stop.

Oh, I am also just assuming that old people who get infirmed or anyone going into a coma should be treated the same - would save a lot of money for society to make these people happy to be sure!

Yes, you can put the old people in there as well. My parents are currently taking care of my grandfather who has Alzheimers, they would be much better off if he were dead. Moving on, I'm not sure if your question was directed toward un-wanted children, or handicapped/retarded people. In any event, their (both of the parties in question) happiness is irrelevant, as their lives are not their own. They are not capable of surviving on their own (both infants/small children and retards), therefore their lives do not belong to them. Rather they belong to the people that brought them into this world, or in the case of the retards, the people that take care of them. With this in mind, it is the perrogative of the parents and/or caretakers to do with them as they please. Which would include terminating there existence if they become burdensome or un-wanted. Life is not a right.... It's a privalege....

Peace

-Taejoon

[Taejoon]

Actually it's only been about the past 30 years or so that kids with special needs survived much past child birth....

think about it......... a child with mental, or physical issues were of no use to the family, and thus would be drowned, or starved, or killed outright.....

A child is a child... who has the right to kill someone?? without consiquence??

for even if a pregnancy is terminated because of health issues, or convinience of the woman............ a life is still stopped....

Has anyone ever spoken to someone who has had an abortion... likes years later?? I have................ she was messed up with guilt.........

Then she needs to get over it. Or she should have come to grips with totallity of the decision she made when she chose to have her unborn child aborted in the first place. Either way, her mental state is her own fault, not the fault of the procedure, or the people performing it. As for who has the right to kill someone and/or stop a life, see my above post in which I responded to Cycleon.

Peace

-Taejoon