HTPA Shutdown....

[Swifto]

VERY interesting qoute from Swale (Qualified Endo):

HCG induces the Leydig cells to produce testosterone, whether on cycle or not. I should expect a given dose of HCG would produce more T in the fully suppressed state (i.e.e AAS cycle) than would be the case in the eugonadal male.

The suppression is surely produced by the induced T. I am not aware that LH directly suppresses at the hypothalamus or pituitary. However, we are finding more and more sites where LH is bioactive, and this is also a good reason to use HCG throughout the steroid cycle in cases where LH production is reduced.

HCG is "to suppressive' only when itr is being administered while we are trying to recover the HPTA. Then it is, just as Androgel or 100mg pf test cyp per week would be. IOW, you cannot "hide" androgens from the HP.

Subjective proof is provided by all the AAS athletes out there who have used my HCG protocol, and report how much better they feel during their steroid cycles. They claim to avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling that often accompanies the cycle by about the 5th or 6th week. They also say they recover more quickly, as testicular repsonse to rapidly returning LH production is the rate-limiting step in HPTA recovery.

Edit:

Total T is HUGE for AAS users. Far beyond what can be gobbled up by SHBG, so free and Bio T are as well. That is why I always tell them that their SHBG levels are of virtually no consequence until they go off cycle.

The endogenous production from HCG use during cycle is small by comparison to the AAS, too. However, those who use HCG during their cycles per my protocol report to me they just feel better along the way, so SOMETHING else is happening. And of course recovery is speeded up at the end, too, because the testes are ready, willing and able to do their thing.

If this is the case a low dose of HCG throughout your cycle will really help in PCT. You wont be starting from scratch. Your bodies already producing some natural T.

Thats just changed the way I cycle. HCG, low dose throughout for me now.

[Giants11]

I find all AAS raises prolactin (from pre cycle BW), but tren and deca even more so.

User Caber when cycling would always be a good thing imo. High prolactin levels will drive libido in the ground too.

Cabergoline has been linked to hear valve issue, so tread lightly there. Perhaps B-6 in this case:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Parkinson’s drugs may be riskier than thought
Heart valve problems linked to two medications, studies find
Parkinson's drugs riskier than thought - More Health News - MSNBC.com

Jan 3, 2007

The risk of heart valve damage with two drugs for Parkinson’s disease may be far greater than was known, new research suggests.

The drugs are not the main treatment for Parkinson’s, but one is also sometimes used to treat restless legs syndrome.

A study by Italian researchers found that roughly one-fourth of Parkinson’s patients taking pergolide or cabergoline, sold as Permax, Dostinex and other brands, had moderate to severe heart valve problems. Another study, by German doctors, found that users of either drug were five to seven times more likely to have leaky heart valves than those on other types of Parkinson’s medications. Both studies were reported in Thursday’s New England Journal of Medicine.

“This is an extraordinarily high risk,” said Dr. Bryan Roth, a pharmacology professor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

“It’s a bad side effect. As far as I know, there are no medications that can reverse it,” and valve replacement surgery is the only solution, he said.

Roth had no role in the studies but directs a drug screening program for the National Institute of Mental Health. He also published a paper several years ago warning that these drugs appeared to trigger the same heart-related mechanism that the fen-phen diet combination did. The diet pills, sold as Pondimin and Redux, were pulled from the market in 1997 after they were linked to valve problems.

One of the Parkinson’s drugs — pergolide, sold as Permax and other brands — also is used to treat restless legs syndrome. Cabergoline, sold as Dostinex, Cabaser and other names, is mostly used in Europe.

About half a million people had taken Permax during its first 14 years on the market when its developer, Eli Lilly and Co., added valve damage to the potential side effects listed on the package insert in 2003. But the company said the risk was extremely low — five in 100,000 users.

Roth believed there were more cases, a theory he said the new studies confirmed.

“This is an example of, if you don’t look for it, you don’t see it,” said Dr. C. Warren Olanow, chairman of neurology at Mount Sinai School of Medicine in New York, who had no role in the work. The findings will lead more doctors to prescribe other Parkinson’s treatments, he said.

About 1.5 million Americans and 6 million people worldwide have Parkinson’s disease, which results in tremors, loss of muscle control and sometimes death.

It’s caused by a lack of the brain chemical, dopamine. The main treatment is levodopa, which spurs the body to make more dopamine. Pergolide and cabergoline often are given in addition to that drug or in place of it, especially if symptoms worsen over time.

In one study, Dr. Renzo Zanettini and others at the Instituti Clinici di Perfezionamento in Milan obtained echocardiogram images of the hearts of 155 patients taking various Parkinson’s medications and a comparison group of 90 healthy people.

Moderate to severe valve problems were seen in 23 percent of those on pergolide and nearly 29 percent of those on cabergoline but none of those on other Parkinson’s drugs and less than 6 percent of the comparison group. The study was paid for by the Milan clinic and two Parkinson’s foundations.

In the other study, Dr. Rene Schade and colleagues in Berlin and in Montreal used records from more than 11,400 Parkinson’s patients in the United Kingdom. The rate of newly diagnosed leaky valves was increased among pergolide and cabergoline users but not the others, they found. The Canadian government and a drug company provided partial support for the study. Many researchers in both studies have consulted for Parkinson drug makers.

Pergolide sales have dropped in recent years but still amounted to more than $10 million last year in the United States, according to IMS Health, a health care information firm.

The rights to Permax in the U.S. now belong to Valeant Pharmaceuticals of Aliso Viejo, Calif. A company statement said Permax is safe and effective, but Valeant is no longer promoting the product. All such drugs should be used “with caution,” the statement says.

Cabergoline is approved in the U.S. for treating a hormone problem, excessive prolactin in the blood, but not Parkinson’s.

Roth has been urging companies developing new drugs to test for the mechanism involved in the Parkinson and fen-phen pills, saying those that that have it shouldn’t be sold.

[Property of Steroid.com]

Just had a thought...

Prolactin is also very inhibitory to ones HPTA. So would the use Cabergoline be crucial when cycling 19-Nors, or be a must when conducting a PCT protocol when one's used 19-Nor's previously?

I think adding another drug isn't a great idea. You can block conversion to DHT, lower prolactin, lower progesterone, eliminate the rise in estrogen, etc, etc...

But all of those things have sides themselves. Lowering DHT can cause gyno...lowering estrogen will mess up lipids, anabolism, etc...lowering progesterone can **** your joints up, lowering prolactin can mess with your immune function...

I think it's probably not going to be the magic bullet we all think it is to stop all of these hormonal cascades. Androgens are suppressive in and of themselves, no conversion to anyting required....

So even if we did everything under the sun to lower suppression, it would likely only be marginally effective in the long run.

[Property of Steroid.com]

Cabergoline has been linked to hear valve issue, so tread lightly there. Perhaps B-6 in this case:

But B6 will lower androgen gene transcription...

[Giants11]

But B6 will lower androgen gene transcription...

Then it's got to be Bromo, if Prolactin is an issue. And I guess you just gotta suck up the sides.

Back to the original question of the quote. Is there any evidence that supports staying on a cycle for prolonged periods of time, will eventually make it impossible to recover?

[Serotonin]

Just to further elaborate on the wonders of HCG ... check this journal article out.

Dev Kumar1

1. ***artment of Obstetrics and Gynecology, University Malaya Medical Centre, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia

Objective

To document for the first time the successful treatment using human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and human menopausal gonadotropins (hMG) of anabolic steroid –induced azoospermia that was persistent despite 1 year of cessation from steroid use .
Design

Clinical case report.
Setting

Tertiary referral center for infertility.
Patient(s)

A married couple with primary subfertility secondary to azoospermia and male hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. The husband was a bodybuilder who admitted to have used the anabolic steroids testosterone cypionate , methandrostenolone , oxandrolone, testosterone propionate , oxymetholone, nandrolone decanoate, and methenolone enanthate .
Intervention(s)

Twice-weekly injections of 10,000 IU of hCG (Profasi; Serono) and daily injections of 75 IU of hMG (Humegon; Organon) for 3 months.
Main outcome measure(s)

Semen analyses, pregnancy.
Result(s)

Semen analyses returned to normal after 3 months of treatment. The couple conceived spontaneously 7 months later.
Conclusion(s)

Steroid-induced azoospermia that is persistent after cessation of steroid use can be treated successfully with hCG and hMG.

Keywords: Anabolic steroid; azoospermia; human chorionic gonadotropin; human menopausal gonadotropin

So, those doses and the length are kind of hefty. His boys were swimming well and the couple was able to conceive!

[10nispro]

This may be off subject, and if so, please feel free to knock me for it, but if someone gets (snipped), are the leydig cells, that produce test., involved?

[Serotonin]

No they cut the tubes that sperm travel into to join semen before being ejaculated. The testicles still work the same and the sperm degenerate.

[Swifto]

I'm going to try HCG at a low dose when shutdown and see how I get on. It seems to maintain testicular size/function, its worth it.

[Mista Massive]

this is an extremely good and informative thread

[Swifto]

this is an extremely good and informative thread

I know, lets try and keep it going.

Anyone used low dose HCG thoughout their cycle and get results from it?

[Property of Steroid.com]

I know, lets try and keep it going.

Anyone used low dose HCG thoughout their cycle and get results from it?

That's always been my issue with HCG on a cycle. I've never heard someone say "I ran HCG, and I only needed 1/2 the usual doses for my PCT, and I only did PCT for half as long."

You know? I mean we "know" hcg should technically allow us to do that (if it makes recovery "easier")...we should be able to quantify it. If you run HCG, should you use less PCT meds, or for less time, or what? My issue is that we can't quantify what it does for us, in those terms...people just (sometimes) say "My PCT was easier" yet they didn't run less PCT meds and not for a shorter time.

Also...Duchaine reccomended HCG during a cycle (USH1) , as did Bill Phillips (Anabolic Reference Guide) and tons of other people before we saw it on the 'net. It's like...a 2 decade old idea.

Also...the guy who uses that protocol (the Endo) works with people on 100mgs of test cyp a week...not 1-2 grams, like we see here. I don't see him having "real" experience with people like those on s.com.

[plzr8]

i feel that we get "visible" results from HCG after just a couple weeks....which makes me thing that running it throughout entire cycle may be overkill ?....i usually start it about 3 weeks prior to PCT, may start it a couple weeks even earlier this time around as cycle is slightly longer

curious to hear some feedback on those who have actualyl ran it entire cycle and noticed a difference during pct and used less meds as well

[Serotonin]

From the research I've read on HCG , it is usually administered in pretty high dosages and for 3-5 months... Granted, this was to correct azoospermia or some other infertility problems in men but at least that provides some insight to me in how dosing can occur. Clearly the above study I pasted shows the guy getting 20,000IU of HCG in a week... for 3 months!

I agree with Swifto though, my next cycle is going to be way more aggressive than my current and I'm going to run HCG throughout, if for nothing else to see if it will combat hypogonadism.

What are you thinking of running swifto?, I was thinking about 1000iu 2x a week.

[Giants11]

That's always been my issue with HCG on a cycle. I've never heard someone say "I ran HCG, and I only needed 1/2 the usual doses for my PCT, and I only did PCT for half as long."

You know? I mean we "know" hcg should technically allow us to do that (if it makes recovery "easier")...we should be able to quantify it. If you run HCG, should you use less PCT meds, or for less time, or what? My issue is that we can't quantify what it does for us, in those terms...people just (sometimes) say "My PCT was easier" yet they didn't run less PCT meds and not for a shorter time.

Also...Duchaine reccomended HCG during a cycle (USH1) , as did Bill Phillips (Anabolic Reference Guide) and tons of other people before we saw it on the 'net. It's like...a 2 decade old idea.

Also...the guy who uses that protocol (the Endo) works with people on 100mgs of test cyp a week...not 1-2 grams, like we see here. I don't see him having "real" experience with people like those on s.com.

Perhaps the issue is not making one's PCT easier, cause if you are shutdown you are shutdown, but perhaps the real benefit is keeping the leydig cells from becoming desensitized as Swito put it.....?

[Property of Steroid.com]

Perhaps the issue is not making one's PCT easier, cause if you are shutdown you are shutdown, but perhaps the real benefit is keeping the leydig cells from becoming desensitized as Swito put it.....?

Which will do what?

[Property of Steroid.com]

From the research I've read on HCG , it is usually administered in pretty high dosages and for 3-5 months... Granted, this was to correct azoospermia or some other infertility problems in men but at least that provides some insight to me in how dosing can occur. Clearly the above study I pasted shows the guy getting 20,000IU of HCG in a week... for 3 months!

I agree with Swifto though, my next cycle is going to be way more aggressive than my current and I'm going to run HCG throughout, if for nothing else to see if it will combat hypogonadism.

What are you thinking of running swifto?, I was thinking about 1000iu 2x a week.

Yet for some reason, we think that even though high doses corrected that guy's problem, we're going to desensitize our leydig cells with anything more than 500iu 1-2x a week...

[Giants11]

Which will do what?

Yeah I guess make PCT easier in effect.

I mean the only real way to validate this, is to run two cycles.

One with HCG and one without, making sure one is completely shutdown both times and then determine how long it takes for T to rebound.

Of course this would take a ton of time as well as blood work, but maybe someone is up for it

[Property of Steroid.com]

Yeah I guess make PCT easier in effect.

I mean the only real way to validate this, is to run two cycles.

One with HCG and one without, making sure one is completely shutdown both times and then determine how long it takes for T to rebound.

Of course this would take a ton of time as well as blood work, but maybe someone is up for it

Unfortunately, NOBODY ever does a different PCT when they run HCG during a cycle. They buy X amount of everything they planned to use, and use it until their planned PCT is over. Nobody ever says "I recovered in 2 weeks after my cycle, so I stopped PCT"

They say "hcg on a cycle helped my Post cycle recovery" and then when I ask "did you stop earlier or use less drugs?" they say no. So how the hell did it help? Are your test levels higher now, then after PCT without HCG during a cycle? They answer they don't know because they didn't check it.

So what is the quantifiable result? Nothing I've ever seen.

That's my issue. It's never been confirmed in a quantifiable way that this method has that kind of benefit. People say it's good, but honestly, when you circulate a post on a ton of boards, even if it's wrong, it's right because people believe it. Look at the "Clen Handbook"- it's totally wrong in so many spots, but since it's been reposted a million times, people accept it as fact.

[Serotonin]

I can't really find anything on permanent desensitization from HCG . The cells autoregulate, and some studies show after one administration of HCG the cells desensitize but after a few days they upregulate the receptors once again... So, I would say that ***ending on the timing, which seems to be pretty much in concordance with Swale's PCT, you aren't going to have any permanent desensitization.

I'm going to do a lot more research on this and talk to one of my old prof's that has a PhD in physiology and see if maybe he has heard of permanent desensitization of the leydig cells...

[Property of Steroid.com]

I can't really find anything on permanent desensitization from HCG . The cells autoregulate, and some studies show after one administration of HCG the cells desensitize but after a few days they upregulate the receptors once again... So, I would say that ***ending on the timing, which seems to be pretty much in concordance with Swale's PCT, you aren't going to have any permanent desensitization.

I'm going to do a lot more research on this and talk to one of my old prof's that has a PhD in physiology and see if maybe he has heard of permanent desensitization of the leydig cells...

But what is the benefit?

[Serotonin]

Trying to eliminate the hypogonadism in a very long cycle and preventing the complications that arise during spermatogenesis after AAS use.

[Swifto]

That's always been my issue with HCG on a cycle. I've never heard someone say "I ran HCG, and I only needed 1/2 the usual doses for my PCT, and I only did PCT for half as long."

You know? I mean we "know" hcg should technically allow us to do that (if it makes recovery "easier")...we should be able to quantify it. If you run HCG, should you use less PCT meds, or for less time, or what? My issue is that we can't quantify what it does for us, in those terms...people just (sometimes) say "My PCT was easier" yet they didn't run less PCT meds and not for a shorter time.

Also...Duchaine reccomended HCG during a cycle (USH1) , as did Bill Phillips (Anabolic Reference Guide) and tons of other people before we saw it on the 'net. It's like...a 2 decade old idea.

Also...the guy who uses that protocol (the Endo) works with people on 100mgs of test cyp a week...not 1-2 grams, like we see here. I don't see him having "real" experience with people like those on s.com.

But their still shutdown, from androgens and testosterone can still be produced when using HCG. From what Swale states. This surely means PCT will be easier, as the testes have a head start. They havent become unresponsive to LH as HCG has been used.

[Swifto]

But what is the benefit?

That your testes are going to be awake and ready for producing testosterone and havent layed dormant for X amount of weeks.

[Swifto]

Unfortunately, NOBODY ever does a different PCT when they run HCG during a cycle. They buy X amount of everything they planned to use, and use it until their planned PCT is over. Nobody ever says "I recovered in 2 weeks after my cycle, so I stopped PCT"

They say "hcg on a cycle helped my Post cycle recovery" and then when I ask "did you stop earlier or use less drugs?" they say no. So how the hell did it help? Are your test levels higher now, then after PCT without HCG during a cycle? They answer they don't know because they didn't check it.

So what is the quantifiable result? Nothing I've ever seen.

That's my issue. It's never been confirmed in a quantifiable way that this method has that kind of benefit. People say it's good, but honestly, when you circulate a post on a ton of boards, even if it's wrong, it's right because people believe it. Look at the "Clen Handbook"- it's totally wrong in so many spots, but since it's been reposted a million times, people accept it as fact.

Drop in labido from not using HCG when "on", to using HCG during PCT, would be an indication. Although testosterone isnt the only regulator of labido.

A quantifiable result is being able to maintain natural testosterone levels while the body is shutdown and not producing its own ganadotropins.

It seems if one were to use HCG and maintain natural testosterone production, during secondary hypogonadism, the body would have a head start over a subject that wasnt producing their own testosterone and was suffering from leydig cell desensitisation.

[Swifto]

From the research I've read on HCG , it is usually administered in pretty high dosages and for 3-5 months... Granted, this was to correct azoospermia or some other infertility problems in men but at least that provides some insight to me in how dosing can occur. Clearly the above study I pasted shows the guy getting 20,000IU of HCG in a week... for 3 months!

I agree with Swifto though, my next cycle is going to be way more aggressive than my current and I'm going to run HCG throughout, if for nothing else to see if it will combat hypogonadism.

What are you thinking of running swifto?, I was thinking about 1000iu 2x a week.

Similar to Swale's, if not Swales protocol.

125-250ius, 2-3 times weekly.

[Property of Steroid.com]

A quantifiable result is being able to maintain natural testosterone levels while the body is shutdown and not producing its own ganadotropins.

It seems if one were to use HCG and maintain natural testosterone production, during secondary hypogonadism, the body would have a head start over a subject that wasnt producing their own testosterone and was suffering from leydig cell desensitisation.

Yet, no studies or bloodwork exist to confirm this....

It's all theoretical.

[Swifto]

Yet, no studies or bloodwork exist to confirm this....

It's all theoretical.

Studies only exist to state it maintains ITT.

Theoretical or not, its from a qualified Endo. Thats good enough for me.

[Property of Steroid.com]

Studies only exist to state it maintains ITT.

Theoretical or not, its from a qualified Endo. Thats good enough for me.

Who was banned from MesRx, and removed from it's staff, for mental instability.

Also...why would a TRT doc know about PCT? His clients don't come off...they're permanently on test....

Why would he know anything about PCT? By definition, he never would bother with it. Also, he's a D.O. I believe.

Being a doctor doesn't mean much to me with regards to performance enhancement. If that credential is enough for you, then that's your deal.



(Swale and his porno mustache)

[Property of Steroid.com]

That your testes are going to be awake and ready for producing testosterone and havent layed dormant for X amount of weeks.

Evidence for that? A study? Bloodwork? Or because he's a doctor, and he says so?

[Property of Steroid.com]

Studies only exist to state it maintains ITT.

So does Garlic.

[Swifto]

Who was banned from MesRx, and removed from it's staff, for mental instability.

Also...why would a TRT doc know about PCT? His clients don't come off...they're permanently on test....

Why would he know anything about PCT? By definition, he never would bother with it. Also, he's a D.O. I believe.

Being a doctor doesn't mean much to me with regards to performance enhancement. If that credential is enough for you, then that's your deal.



(Swale and his porno mustache)

LOL

He's an Endo, so specialises in endocrinology. So I guess his theories and views should be pretty well respceted in my book. I know you and Swale dont get on particually.

I guess the only way to see is to try it. I'll try running HCG low dose during my next cycle and see how it goes.

[Swifto]

Evidence for that? A study? Bloodwork? Or because he's a doctor, and he says so?

Again, someone qualified in the field should know. Rather than someone who isnt.

You wouldnt take a pilots advice about driving a car. Just like one wouldnt really take an authors advice, over an Endo's.

Evidence would suggest the leydig cells arnt unresponsive or desensitised as their still producing testosterone . Simple.

[Property of Steroid.com]

LOL

He's an Endo, so specialises in endocrinology. So I guess his theories and views should be pretty well respceted in my book.

.

How about the Endo's and Doctors in the 1960's who published articles saying that Anabolic Steroids do not improve athletic performance?

Are their theories respected in your book?

I'll put it to you like this:

Give me an athlete. Give Swale an athlete.

Allow us to do what we want.

Mine will produce better performances and recover more quickly than swale's 100% of the time. 100%. Without even breaking a sweat.

I can't think of a single person Swale ever worked with, natural or not, who won anything more than a blowjob from Swale. I can't even name a top athlete who will mention Swale.

If you want a good doctor's opinion, look into Dr. Eric Serrano, Dr. Bill Roberts, Dr. John Berardi, Dr. James Daemon, etc...Swale is a fraud.

Nobody in the industry even thinks about him.

[Swifto]

How about the Endo's and Doctors in the 1960's who published articles saying that Anabolic Steroids do not improve athletic performance?

Are their theories respected in your book?

I'll put it to you like this:

Give me an athlete. Give Swale an athlete.

Allow us to do what we want.

Mine will produce better performances and recover more quickly than swale's 100% of the time. 100%. Without even breaking a sweat.

I can't think of a single person Swale ever worked with, natural or not, who won anything more than a blowjob from Swale. I can't even name a top athlete who will mention Swale.

If you want a good doctor's opinion, look into Dr. Eric Serrano, Dr. Bill Roberts, Dr. John Berardi, Dr. James Daemon, etc...Swale is a fraud.

Nobody in the industry even thinks about him.

Seriously, I'm not trying to turn this into a you vs Swale thread, again.

I'm meerly looking for the best possible way to recover post cycle and keep gains. Swale states HCG maintains natural T, if this is the case, recovery will be easier, peroid. You seem to think otherwise.

[Kratos]

Another factor in prolonged shut down not mentioned yet...after a year testicular atrophy is most likely more substantial, but more importantly the body has not been signaling the testicals at a physiologic level in a much longer amount of time. The hypothalamus and pituitary have not been sending fsh and lh for a long time. If you look at spinal cord injury patients after only a few years the motor cortex can stop sending readable signals for leg movement. I would assume just like not exerciseing a muscle for prolonged periods of time can make muscle recovery more difficult, not using the testicles for prolonged periods of time can make testicle recovery more difficult.

[Property of Steroid.com]

Seriously, I'm not trying to turn this into a you vs Swale thread, again.

I'm meerly looking for the best possible way to recover post cycle and keep gains. Swale states HCG maintains natural T, if this is the case, recovery will be easier, peroid. You seem to think otherwise.

Me Vs. Swale wouldn't be worth my time. He's never coached a single champion athlete...he helps old men get hard-ons for his own purposes (TRT).

I can post comments from his clients, where they say his protocol is cookie-cutter garbage.

Here's one quote, from one of SWALE's clients:

"you probably didn't need to list the protocols you guys tried becuase SWALE does those with absolutely everyone, no matter what the source of their hypogonadism.

SWALE always uses HCG -- even if you are primary and your nuts don't work.
SWALE always uses testosterone -- even if you are secondary and it's entirely a bad idea.

The magic formula is some form of T, plus HCG. The problem is, this is a lifetime protocol. SWALE does not cure, he treats. He puts a band-aid on the boo boo, but the wound never heals. Get it?

[He'll toss in Arimidex if E2 is high, and pregnenelone if you 'want it.']

Anyway, the question in the original post was -- will SWALEs protocols cure hypogonadism, that is, restart the HTPA. The answer is NO, because SWALE always insists on using exogenous testosterone . That's why I say he is unmoving. Even if you are secondary and your testes can produce their own T with HCG , he will STILL stick to his "universal" magic protocol. "

None of my clients ever badmouthed me...and tons of SWALE's say he is terrible. His methods don't work, even according to his own clients.

[Property of Steroid.com]

Oh....did I tell you that swale also says that an AI is a bad idea to raise test levels?

Here's a quote about it:

How anyone could recommend an AI to raise T levels is beyond me. It's negative effects with respect to severely lowered estrogen levels makes such advice irresponsible, to say the least.

ha ha. Looks like he needs a few more yuears in medical school and a few less ones in the Gay Bar.

[Swifto]

Swale's a private Endo and to my knowledge, is still practising. So he's doing something right.

I know you dont like Swale and really, as soon as I mentioned his name, knew you'de come flying in to try to discredit his opinoin/theories/views. It was obvious. But I was looking to see if natural T can be maintained and came across his post(s) on CEM.

Which answered my question of, "Can natural T be maintained when hypogondal from androgens?". Swale says, YES.

IMHO, discussion over. Swale is a qualified Endo and specialises in that field. Enough in my book.

[Swifto]

You've mentioned him being gay twice now, or made refferences...Is there a problem?