HTPA Shutdown....

[Swifto]

J Steroid Biochem. 1986 Jul;25(1):109-12.

Testicular responsiveness to human chorionic gonadotrophin during transient hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism induced by androgenic/anabolic steroids in power athletes.

Martikainen H, Alén M, Rahkila P, Vihko R.
Serum concentrations of testosterone , 17-hydroxyprogesterone, estradiol and several other unconjugated and sulphated steroids were analyzed before and after a single dose of hCG in 6 power athletes, who had used high doses of testosterone and anabolic steroids for 3 months. The study was carried out 3 weeks after cessation of drug use, but the study subjects were still characterized by hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism. The mean concentrations of serum LH and FSH were 2.6 +/- 0.3 and 1.1 +/- 0.03 mIU/ml (mean +/- SEM), respectively, and the concentrations of several precursors and metabolites of testosterone were lower than those before drug use. In contrast, circulating concentrations of steroid sulphates were not decreased, with the exception of dehydroepiandrosterone sulphate. After hCG injection serum testosterone and 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone concentrations increased significantly, whereas no increases in estradiol and 17-hydroxyprogesterone concentrations were observed. These results demonstrate that during transient hypogonadotrophism in adult men, the testicular responsiveness to a single injection of hCG is similar to that in prepubertal boys without any sign of steroidogenic lesion at the 17,20-desmolase step. Therefore, the appearance of the possibly estradiol-mediated inhibition at the level of C21-steroid side-chain splitting in testosterone biosynthesis seems to be dependent on priming by gonadotrophins.
PMID: 3747510 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


And that, in a nutshell, is why I favor HCG for PCT instead of on a cycle. You get the test w/o the estrogen. You can even use a ton and not get the estrogen increase.

Thanks.

[Swifto]

Anthony's PCT got me back up and running, I can attest to that. But I didnt use the Aromasin . I used HCG , Nolva, Proviron , Vit-E.

It worked well, but I think I can get up again a little faster, tweaking it. Like Anthony said, there is no one size fits all PCT. No magic cardboard cut out everyone can use and recover within weeks.

PCT compounds vary greatly fron one another, as do androgens effects/sides.

I'm definitely going to try HCG throughout the cycle at a low dose and see how I get on. PCT will be 1-2 weeks of HCG and then a low dose Clomid, or Clomid/Nolva and Aromasin protocol. Also low dose Proviron.

I may even try some new SERM's.

[Property of Steroid.com]

I may even try some new SERM's.

Update the board if you do. Me and Bri are getting together soon, and we'll probably pound out a volume 2 by new years.

[Swifto]

Update the board if you do. Me and Bri are getting together soon, and we'll probably pound out a volume 2 by new years.

Will do.

No doubt I'll buy it.

[thunderin]

Anthony's PCT got me back up and running, I can attest to that. But I didnt use the Aromasin . I used HCG , Nolva, Proviron , Vit-E.

It worked well, but I think I can get up again a little faster, tweaking it. Like Anthony said, there is no one size fits all PCT. No magic cardboard cut out everyone can use and recover within weeks.

PCT compounds vary greatly fron one another, as do androgens effects/sides.

I'm definitely going to try HCG throughout the cycle at a low dose and see how I get on. PCT will be 1-2 weeks of HCG and then a low dose Clomid, or Clomid/Nolva and Aromasin protocol. Also low dose Proviron.

I may even try some new SERM's.

I am running HCG @ 500iu every 4th day. Recovery is much easier for me like this with Hooker's (A.R.) PCT.

Wanting to incorporate GHRP-6 into my next PCT. Any experience with doing that? I usually use GH.

[hackskii]

It is possible to still have problems with fertility, but usually if testosterone recovers sperm follow. If fertility is a concern you need to have your sperm counted. You may have to wear an icepack in your underwear or something like that don't know for sure of all the treetments. I don't want to knock anyone up right now so I haven't really looked into it.

Had a buddy do a year cycle, took him some time for testosterone to come back but took another 6 months before he could get his wife pregnant.
Test levels came back and still took another 6 months before he knocked her up.

[vitor]

Had a buddy do a year cycle, took him some time for testosterone to come back but took another 6 months before he could get his wife pregnant.
Test levels came back and still took another 6 months before he knocked her up.

Do you know exactly how long it took for hes T-levels to come back after being on for a year?

How old was he? and what compounds did he use?

[hackskii]

Do you know exactly how long it took for hes T-levels to come back after being on for a year?

How old was he? and what compounds did he use?

I dont have the exact numbers but I think it was like 6 months for recovery and another 6 months before he could get his chick pregnant.

Dude was using very high amounts of everything, using very supressive compounds of just about everything and even some things that would be hard to get ahold of.
I can go over the thread again and figure that all out.

He is in his mid 30's and is not one usually to have problems with recovery.

Just glossed over the thread it was 15 months and 8 months to recover and during the 8 months test levels were not unreadable.....


Here is another guy on the same thread:
I did a 7 month cycle once (never again) when I came off I had to re-run PCT 3 times and it was 6 months post cycle that I became fertile again. But in reality true recovery took probably a year.

Have a brother that did 13 weeks of deca and it took him a year before he recovered.

[S431M7]

For those that are reading this but feel a little lost, there are three main components to the hormonal axis in men, 1.)the Hypothalamus, 2.) the Pituitary gland, and 3.) the Testis hence the H, P, T, and the A for axis. This axis functions in a tightly regulated manner to produce concentrations of circulating steroids (testosterone). When doing steroids you negatively disrupt the axis which then results in a decrease in your production of testosterone and in some cases stops your production of testosterone altogether. The million dollar question, does the amount of time your system is suppressed or shut down effect how long it takes your axis (HPTA) to "get back to normal"?

That somehow clears things up...I will come back for comments later after I get done with this threads.

[hackskii]

The million dollar question, does the amount of time your system is suppressed or shut down effect how long it takes your axis (HPTA) to "get back to normal"?

Yes it does and some compounds will make this even worse.

But there is light at the end of the tunnel, HPTA restoration will take 45 days for the most stubbern HPTA.

Here is a PDF from a Doc on this very issue.

Well, I was gonna link that but the file is too big.

[vitor]

Yes it does and some compounds will make this even worse.

But there is light at the end of the tunnel, HPTA restoration will take 45 days for the most stubbern HPTA.

Here is a PDF from a Doc on this very issue.

Well, I was gonna link that but the file is too big.

Would be greate if you could get the study up anyways...
Maybe try and shorten it down a little so you can get it up...

[kfrost06]

Would be greate if you could get the study up anyways...
Maybe try and shorten it down a little so you can get it up...

The problem with shutting down the HPTA is it can be hard to get it up

[S431M7]

The problem with shutting down the HPTA is it can be hard to get it up

A lot of people 've said on this thread and others that HCG has given them an amazing recovery.

[hackskii]

Would be greate if you could get the study up anyways...
Maybe try and shorten it down a little so you can get it up...

It is a PDF and I have it on another site and this is the doctor that gave me his protocol.
He basicly tracked 19 dudes blood work and LH and FSH and test levels, how much weight and percentage of bodyfat.

I will copy and paste from PDF:
It might look choppy.

Objective
To develop an approach to cycle androgens that would
result in significant changes in body composition and
accelerate the normalization of the hypothalamic
pituitary gonadal axis (HPGA) after cessation of
androgens.

Methods
An uncontrolled study of 19 HIV-negative eugonadal
men, ages 23 – 57 years, administered testosterone
cypionate and nandrolone decanoate for 12 weeks,
and then were treated simultaneously with a combined
regimen of human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG ) (2500
IU/QODx16d), clomiphene citrate (50 mg PO BID x 30d)
and tamoxifen (20 mg PO QD x 45d), to restore the
HPGA.

Results
Mean FFM by DEXA increased from 64.1 to 69.8 kg
(p<.001); percent body fat decreased from 23.6 to 20.9
(p<.01); strength increased significantly from 357.4 lb
to 406.4 lb (p=.02). No significant changes in serum
chemistries and liver function tests were found. HDL-C
decreased from a mean value of 44.3 to 38.0 (p=.02).
Mean values for luteinizing hormone (LH) and total
testosterone (T) were 4.5 and 460, respectively prior
to androgen treatment. At the conclusion of the 12-
week treatment with androgens the mean LH <0.7
(p<.001) and total testosterone was 1568 (p<.001). The
mean values after treatment with the combined
regimen were LH=6.2 and testosterone=458.

Discussion
The use of androgens has been reported to improve
lean body mass, strength, sexual function, and mood
accompanied by side effects caused by continuous
uninterrupted use of these compounds (polycythemia,
testicular atrophy, hypertension, liver dysfunction
[oral androgens] and alopecia.) Androgen-induced
HPGA suppression causes a severe hypogonadal state in
most patients that often require an extensive period of
considerable duration for normalization. This prevents
most if not all individuals from cycling off these
medications due to the adverse impact of this state on
their previously gained LBM and quality of life. The
protocol of hCG-clomiphene-tamoxifen was successful
in restoring the HPGA within 45 days after androgen
cessation. Further controlled studies are needed to
determine if these results can be duplicated in HIVpositive
subjects.

[hackskii]

Sorry I had to butcher the hell out of it, continued.

Androgens
(depoTestosterone; delaTestryl; Nandrolone Decanoate; Oxymetholone (Anadrol -50); Oxandrolone;
Stanazolol (Winstrol ).

Negative Effects:
�� Decreased GnRH; LH & FSH; Endogenous Testosterone ; Testicular Size; & Spermatozoa.
�� Increase Estradiol & DHT with depot and delaT.
�� Androgen Induced Hypogonadism (AIH) of Unknown Duration & Severity to be Clinically Significant
& Problematic to Preclude Androgen Cessation & Avoidance or
Elimination of Negative Side-Effects of Androgens

[hackskii]

A lot of people 've said on this thread and others that HCG has given them an amazing recovery.

Well yah that is because it is the nuts that are the limiting factor in recovery, they could literally take months to come back on line.
With the use of HCG during a cycle there is no down time or if there is it is totally minimised.

[xpijeonx]

Took a couple of days to make it the hole way through this thread so far it has been an awesome read even for lay folk such as myself.

Great comprehendable info and discussion...

[Property of Steroid.com]

Well yah that is because it is the nuts that are the limiting factor in recovery, they could literally take months to come back on line.
With the use of HCG during a cycle there is no down time or if there is it is totally minimised.

Has there ever been a study confirming this?

[hackskii]

Has there ever been a study confirming this?

Personal experiance bro.
I get rasins on cycle and if I use HCG during the cycle they stay nice and plump.

If HCG is a LH analog then it would make sense to keep the nuts doing their job.
HCG will raise natural test levels or even keep test production on cycle even tho LH and FSH are not being produced by the pituitary.

I have gone cold turkey before and I take forever to recover.
I have used HCG, nolva, and clomid and recovered way faster.
I don't need a study to confirm this, nor do I need one to varify what I posted to be true.

[stoney_creek]

By understanding WHICH steroids cause SHUTDOWN and which steroids do NOT, we can formulate a perfect EXTENDED CYCLE.


The Hypothalamus has Androgen, Estrogen, and Progesterone receptors.

Each and EVERY anabolic steroid affects these receptors DIFFERENTLY.

Some steroids affect ALL receptors, while some only affect ONE type of receptor, while others have very little effect on ANY of these receptors.

UNDERSTANDING WHICH steroids affect which receptors, and to WHAT DEGREE, will FULLY enable the steroid user to COMPLETELY and systematically AVOID HPTA SHUTDOWN!

By understanding WHICH steroids cause SHUTDOWN and which steroids do NOT, we can formulate a perfect EXTENDED CYCLE.

Steroids that cause an OVERSATURATION(too many receptors activated) of these various hormone receptors, WILL CAUSE SHUTDOWN.

Steroids that DO NOT CAUSE an OVERSATURATION of ANY of these various hormone receptors, will NOT cause SHUTDOWN!

The Following drugs either DIRECTLY or INDIRECTLY activate ESTROGEN receptors, to varying degrees:

Testosterone
Methandrostenolone
Mathandriol
Oxymetholone
Nandrolone
Boldenone

The Following drugs either DIRECTLY or INDIRECTLY activate PROGESTERONE receptors, to varying degrees:

Nandrolone
Trenbolone
Oxymetholone

The Following drugs activate Androgen receptors, to varying degrees:

Testosterone
Methandrostenolone
Mathandriol
Oxymetholone
Nandrolone
Boldenone
Trenbolone
Halotestin
Oxandrolone
Stanzolol
Chlorodehydromethltestosterone
Methyltestosterone
Methenolone...
(ALL AAS*)

As we can see, the steroids that cause HPTA SHUTDOWN either OVERSATURATE ONE SPECIFIC receptor, or they activate too many TOTAL receptors(Androgen/Estrogen/Progesterone)

For instance, Trenbolone causes HPTA SHUTDOWN because it OVERSATURATES BOTH, the ANDROGEN and the PROGESTERONE receptors.

Testosterone causes SHUTDOWN because it converts to ESTROGEN and DHT, therefore, it oversaturates the Androgen/Estrogen receptors.

As we can ALSO SEE, the steroids that DO NOT cause SHUTDOWN of the HPTA, do NOT oversaturate ANY of the different hormone receptors, and thus, do NOT cause SHUTDOWN.

Methenolone(Primobolan ) does not possess ANY Estrogenic or Progestational ACTIVITY WHATSOEVER. It does, by virtue of being an anabolic steroid, posses a SMALL Androgenic component. Because it lacks ANY ESTROGENIC/PROGESTATIONAL component, and it lacks a strong Androgenic component, it WILL NOT CAUSE SHUTDOWN!

Oxandrolone(Anavar ) posseses NO Estrogenic/Progestational component either. AND, it also lacks a strong androgenic component. Thus, Anavar will NOT cause shutdown.


By understanding WHICH steroids cause SHUTDOWN and which steroids do NOT, we can formulate a perfect EXTENDED CYCLE.

*It must also be noted, that ANY steroid in LARGE enough DOSAGES for long enough DURATIONS, can cause SHUTDOWN of the HPTA.


NOT ALL ANDROGENS CAUSE SHUTDOWN*

"Shutdown", is defined by a COMPLETE inhibition of the Pituitary/Testes, resulting in a TOTAL cessation of endogenous androgen production.

SOME androgens will only SUPPRESS endogenous androgen production, resulting in a DECREASED testosterone level, but not a complete shutdown. (Tbol, Var, Wistrol, EQ, Dianabol , masteron , proviron , halo, primo)

Very Androgenic/Progestenic/Estrogenic steroids(Tren , Deca , Drol, Test) cause a COMPLETE shutdown of endogenous hormone production.

The distinction between SUPRESSION and SHUTDOWN is utterly important, as steroids that cause LESS supression of endogenous hormones will allow for greater retention of gains upon ending the cycle, and a quicker, easier PCT.

hope this helps

[hackskii]

Ok, you suggest that you can offer a steroid that offers no shutdown?
Dude, you are so full of it, it isnt even funny.
I take your post that you have no concept of what in the hell is going on.

I will ask you a series of questions.
Are the 19-nortestosterones more supressive than regular testosterone preperations?
If so then please explain why.

Are the DHT dirivitive steroids more or less supressive than other testosterone preperations?
If so then why.

You say you can design a cycle that offers no shutdown and to this I call bullshit.
All steroids cause shutdown.
Go ahead and say that anavar does not and I got testicular atrophy to suggest otherwise..........

You are either ill informed or have no concept of what you are writing about.......
Either way, you are a waist of letters.................

[stoney_creek]

its the varying degrees of supression
it says no where do this and u wont get shutdown, its explaining each effect and how its shutdown and what parts its shuting down, and where does it even say "You say you can design a cycle that offers no shutdown and to this I call bullshit." it doesnt say that it says sum are faster and more sevre i dont even mention creating a cycle.
It did say this so i dont no wut ur getting at
*It must also be noted, that ANY steroid in LARGE enough DOSAGES for long enough DURATIONS, can cause SHUTDOWN of the HPTA.
Maybe i am wrong about var but my experience was that i didnt get shutdown maybe u did and i could c that cus every1 reacts diff.

[hackskii]

its the varying degrees of supression
it says no where do this and u wont get shutdown, its explaining each effect and how its shutdown and what parts its shuting down, and where does it even say "You say you can design a cycle that offers no shutdown and to this I call bullshit." it doesnt say that it says sum are faster and more sevre i dont even mention creating a cycle.
It did say this so i dont no wut ur getting at
*It must also be noted, that ANY steroid in LARGE enough DOSAGES for long enough DURATIONS, can cause SHUTDOWN of the HPTA.
Maybe i am wrong about var but my experience was that i didnt get shutdown maybe u did and i could c that cus every1 reacts diff.

Im lost bro, all steroids shut you down, all the mecanisms are the same.
You take steroids, your hypothalamus quits sending GnRH to the pituitary, the pituitary quits sending LH and FSH to the leydig cells and the sertoli cells, your endogenous testosterone levels fall, and your sperm count takes a dive, along with intratesticular testosterone as endogenous production is gone.

Wo, yes some steroids are worse than others, but again some guys shut down more than others.
I repeat, ALL STEROIDS SHUT YOU DOWN, and to some degree noticible levels of LH decline right off the bat.

You said this "By understanding WHICH steroids cause SHUTDOWN and which steroids do NOT, we can formulate a perfect EXTENDED CYCLE."
This statement you made is false and has only a slight hint of truth, but it is leading to suggest that we can formulat the perfect extended cycle and again this is a false statement.
Nobody can formulate a perfect extended cycle..........NOBODY!!!!

You also said this: "UNDERSTANDING WHICH steroids affect which receptors, and to WHAT DEGREE, will FULLY enable the steroid user to COMPLETELY and systematically AVOID HPTA SHUTDOWN!"
Again this statement is false for more than one reason.
First you make it sound like it is the receptors that cause shutdown, this is false, it is the hypothalamus and pituitary that stop sending their respective chemical hormones that shut down the HPTA hence the Hypothalamus Pituitary Testicular Axis.
The nuts shut off due to no stimulation from LH and FSH, not anything to do with estrogen receptors, androgen receptors, progesterone receptors, or any other receptors.

Or this one:
"By understanding WHICH steroids cause SHUTDOWN and which steroids do NOT, we can formulate a perfect EXTENDED CYCLE."
Again this statement is false and I dont know where you get your information from.

Or this one:
"Steroids that cause an OVERSATURATION(too many receptors activated) of these various hormone receptors, WILL CAUSE SHUTDOWN.

Steroids that DO NOT CAUSE an OVERSATURATION of ANY of these various hormone receptors, will NOT cause SHUTDOWN!"
Again, wrong it has nothing to do with the receptors and everything to do with the hypothalamus and pituitary.
All steroids cause shutdown and many it happens very fast.

You said primo causes no shutdown.
That is wrong, it does cause shutdown, but not to the extent of other steroids.

I got a kick out of your some androgens do not cause shutdown like winstrol (I will use this one as an example as I have blood work on this one), this is utter bullshit, I have the blood test to prove it that after a month on winstrol I had a 67 test level, hey pretty good eh?
Not.....Beings that normal refrence range is 241-827

Your post is riddled with untruths, if I hadnt known better you never used before, maybe perhaps you are trying to lure some unsuspecting person into you having someone pay you for advice perhaps?
That is a scarry thought, I can clearly tell by your post that you have no concept at giving others advice on the safe use of steroids.
Extended Cycle?
lol, I bet you cant name one of the number one concern's besides the shutdown of the HPTA that you are left with after a cycle.
Besides PCT........

[stoney_creek]

Im lost bro, all steroids shut you down, all the mecanisms are the same.
You take steroids, your hypothalamus quits sending GnRH to the pituitary, the pituitary quits sending LH and FSH to the leydig cells and the sertoli cells, your endogenous testosterone levels fall, and your sperm count takes a dive, along with intratesticular testosterone as endogenous production is gone.

Wo, yes some steroids are worse than others, but again some guys shut down more than others.
I repeat, ALL STEROIDS SHUT YOU DOWN, and to some degree noticible levels of LH decline right off the bat.

You said this "By understanding WHICH steroids cause SHUTDOWN and which steroids do NOT, we can formulate a perfect EXTENDED CYCLE."
This statement you made is false and has only a slight hint of truth, but it is leading to suggest that we can formulat the perfect extended cycle and again this is a false statement.
Nobody can formulate a perfect extended cycle..........NOBODY!!!!

You also said this: "UNDERSTANDING WHICH steroids affect which receptors, and to WHAT DEGREE, will FULLY enable the steroid user to COMPLETELY and systematically AVOID HPTA SHUTDOWN!"
Again this statement is false for more than one reason.
First you make it sound like it is the receptors that cause shutdown, this is false, it is the hypothalamus and pituitary that stop sending their respective chemical hormones that shut down the HPTA hence the Hypothalamus Pituitary Testicular Axis.
The nuts shut off due to no stimulation from LH and FSH, not anything to do with estrogen receptors, androgen receptors, progesterone receptors, or any other receptors.

Or this one:
"By understanding WHICH steroids cause SHUTDOWN and which steroids do NOT, we can formulate a perfect EXTENDED CYCLE."
Again this statement is false and I dont know where you get your information from.

Or this one:
"Steroids that cause an OVERSATURATION(too many receptors activated) of these various hormone receptors, WILL CAUSE SHUTDOWN.

Steroids that DO NOT CAUSE an OVERSATURATION of ANY of these various hormone receptors, will NOT cause SHUTDOWN!"
Again, wrong it has nothing to do with the receptors and everything to do with the hypothalamus and pituitary.
All steroids cause shutdown and many it happens very fast.

You said primo causes no shutdown.
That is wrong, it does cause shutdown, but not to the extent of other steroids.

I got a kick out of your some androgens do not cause shutdown like winstrol (I will use this one as an example as I have blood work on this one), this is utter bullshit, I have the blood test to prove it that after a month on winstrol I had a 67 test level, hey pretty good eh?
Not.....Beings that normal refrence range is 241-827

Your post is riddled with untruths, if I hadnt known better you never used before, maybe perhaps you are trying to lure some unsuspecting person into you having someone pay you for advice perhaps?
That is a scarry thought, I can clearly tell by your post that you have no concept at giving others advice on the safe use of steroids.
Extended Cycle?
lol, I bet you cant name one of the number one concern's besides the shutdown of the HPTA that you are left with after a cycle.
Besides PCT........

listen man i am no proffesional that is what i read and i am not telling any to do this or believe it, it is simply an article that i found and read and thought it could help people on the subject or have questions arise to help me.

[hackskii]

listen man i am no proffesional that is what i read and i am not telling any to do this or believe it, it is simply an article that i found and read and thought it could help people on the subject or have questions arise to help me.

That is fine but that article is not only wrong but gives the impression that someone is in need of some money.
I would be seriously suspect to anyone what would give out this kind of information.
There is some usefull information there but for the most part it is junk info.
No inclination as to why the shutdown or supression, and every inclination that the person that wrote the article suggest no shut down can occur on exended cycles, this is bullshit.

Saying something as simple as estrogen is about 200 times as supressive to the HPTA than testosterone is saying something.
Or that estrogen gets manufactured from testosterone via way of the aromatase enzyme is saying something.

You will get shut down from any cycle to some varying degrees and I have had friends that have been shutdown for up to 1 year and they have the blood work to prove it.
I wrote an article on how to restore the HPTA, this is information.
The other is something else, that I would not be repeating or taking credit for.