Steroid Compounds: When/Why?

[Merc..]

Chuck- I'm 198lbs now, and have been doing heavy cardio since after cycle I had a bit of bloat and was around 207 but I fall into the light heavyweight class. The 60lb gain would be to fall into the heavyweight class.

Magic- thank you for your reply. I guess I seemed to disregard their replies but that isn't the case at all. The info they gave is VERY good, however its things that most educated people would and should assume naturally. I'm not trying to make an argument, more or less just trying to find out as much about the subject as I can.

Each person is different, could I have made the gains I did with just test? Perhaps and perhaps not... I added deca for its supposed joint supplementation (which btw I had zero joint pain and even my ankles typical aching seemed to go away on deca which was awesome!) and increased bulking ability.

Still, we've all seen countless posts of people talking of a first cycle and getting instantly shot down if it isn't anything but Test 500mg a week. That seemed like a huge presumption to me and still I'm sure there's more empirical evidence that could push the subject towards either direction.

edit* Knowing what I do of most AAS, I wouldn't suggest tren for a first time. I'm mainly talking of dbol/deca etc... nice AAS that work well when stacked with test. Has anyone ever really even heard of people getting horrible sides from Deca?

Sides from deca . It is a progestin and has an effect on progesterone and prolactin so sides can include gyno and lactating for starters.

And if as you stated in you last post. And I quote

"The info they gave is VERY good, however its things that most educated people would and should assume naturally"

If this is the case how come you didnt already know and had to start this thread asking?

I am not flaming you I am just wondering ?

Merc.

[Amorphic]

i think we have to consider the level of education concerning the person who is starting their first cycle. A well educated person with proper ancillaries can run something like deca without a problem i believe. The issue is, most people doing their first cycle have very limited aas knowlege. I think the lack of knowlege part is another key factor in keeping the cycles simple to start.

[Serotonin]

Merc, to save myself a lot of time and typing, I didn't write a disclaimer stating all of the exceptions I already had in my head to my question. And I wanted anyone who read this to get an idea as to why things are the way they are. Someone who just joined the site today, that knows nothing of AAS, may have read it and learned something.

[Kratos]

I guess my problem with this thread is that you haven't given any reasons for breaking "guidelines," except that your gains on your first cycle were totally sweet.

[Serotonin]

I guess my problem with this thread is that you haven't given any reasons for breaking "guidelines," except that your gains on your first cycle were totally sweet.

No, don't even consider my personal experience as to why I started this thread. We all just read a lot of information and AAS has a lot of gray area, and I'm just curious. Nothing more really.

[Merc..]

Merc, to save myself a lot of time and typing, I didn't write a disclaimer stating all of the exceptions I already had in my head to my question. And I wanted anyone who read this to get an idea as to why things are the way they are. Someone who just joined the site today, that knows nothing of AAS, may have read it and learned something.

It was just strange to me that in your first post you basically said you dont believe anything anyone says on the boards .

I was curios if you feel this way, why even get opinions from people that you feel your smarter or know more than??


Merc.

[Serotonin]

I guess I need some lessons in etiquette. Of course I take the opinions of SOME people seriously, i.e. Vets and you dudes in Red. Just saying a great deal of the questions asked are answered by nonsense or people parroting things they may "know" but know nothing about. I also frequent other boards, all in all the AR forums are my favorite.

[Big]

Of course I take the opinions of SOME people seriously, i.e. Vets and you dudes in Red.

I appreciate what you're saying, but to be honest my name is in red, yet there are regular members who know far more than I do on many related subjects. I know what I know from personal experience, yet I still have much more to learn. I wouldn't discount any solid information based purely on pre-conceived notions about the person who posts it.

[Merc..]

I guess I need some lessons in etiquette. Of course I take the opinions of SOME people seriously, i.e. Vets and you dudes in Red. Just saying a great deal of the questions asked are answered by nonsense or people parroting things they may "know" but know nothing about. I also frequent other boards, all in all the AR forums are my favorite.

We agree on something....

There is alot of parroting but as long as its the right info I dont have a problem with it. I mean if some other newbie sees it and its the correct info . At least thier getting the correct info regardless of the persons knowlage (thats parroting it) so from that aspects it doesnt bother me at all. I dont know if you have ever read any of my post but I try to be as personal as possible with the person asking the question. I type from whats in my head not from something I am parroting. ( this is sometimes a problem for me because I just start ranting on and on about the subject. lol )

Actually we agree on two things.

AR is the BEST site ......


Merc.

[Serotonin]

Damn, I'm not sure if I appear to be so absolute or what but of course there are people with regular membership that have great info. That type of understanding will only come from time and seeing how those members respond and what they provide.

Think of it this way, some person somewhere that was perhaps in some sort of authoritative position on AAS made an assumption or drew a conclusion about something... it may have been trial and error or just an inference. Whether they are right or wrong may or may not even be easily distinguished, but people are going to preach it like gospel based off of who the person is.

If a first cycle should be Test only because of the trial and error of determining sides and your own reaction to the compound, and cost vs effectiveness, and nothing else.. then cool I understand that. I'm just curious if there are other more empirical and research based reasons behind it since people are so BLATANTLY adamant about it like its a sin to do anything else.

[Amorphic]

I'm just curious if there are other more empirical and research based reasons behind it since people are so BLATANTLY adamant about it like its a sin to do anything else.

Its more of a collective decision on common sense from experienced aas users. Moreso i just think it boils down to common sense. You dont just get your drivers license and hop into a ferarri, baby steps. same goes with aas use.

[kfrost06]

[Serotonin]

Yea, because trying to further your understanding about something is a shitty idea.

Look... I appreciate the bumps but seriously, I asked a question and got some answers that were ballpark around what I expected so if my response to them isn't lauding their content then somehow this devolves into the silly shit it always does. Perhaps asking a question that challenges what everyone thinks is right can rile them up but whatever, instead of just moving on in the hopes of someone else posting something new the pissing contest begins and this dumb shit gets so long that most people probably don't even read past the first page. So instead of picking apart or overanalyzing the simplicity of the question and what has already been said... don't say anything. If no new ideas or information is presented thats fine and this thread, thats turned into another pile of verbal diarrhea, can die. After all, the answer could have already been stated.

[Big]

The reason I recommend test only for a first cycle is simple, if diet and training are in check, it works. In my experience the limiting factor in most people's cycles aren't the number of compounds they use, it's the inferior diet that they think is adequate. Again, this is just my opinion.

[J-41-sd]

The effects of more than necessary androgen levels in the body are not only physical but often physcological and everyone acts differently to everything. For example when I took clomid it made me almost suicidal and I felt on the verge of tears constantly, while others would never do pct without it. Powerful compounds like tren carry a certain level of well known physical sides but the physcological sides are not always known, the human brain holds many secrets that science cannot begin to explain yet. I think roid rage is b.s. but that is because I have a firm grasp of my emotions and actually feel more content while on a cycle, almost a zen state. Not everyone is like that and people that jump into such potent compound often are the individuals that give aas a bad rap and why they continue to be villianized by the media. I personally think you need test in every cycle and thus should be done by itself to determine the proper levels needed then you place the other peices of the puzzle together to make them all fit precisely to adhear to ones own personal needs.

[Serotonin]

The effects of more than necessary androgen levels in the body are not only physical but often physcological and everyone acts differently to everything. For example when I took clomid it made me almost suicidal and I felt on the verge of tears constantly, while others would never do pct without it. Powerful compounds like tren carry a certain level of well known physical sides but the physcological sides are not always known, the
human brain holds many secrets that science cannot begin to explain yet. I think roid rage is b.s. but that is because I have a firm grasp of my emotions and actually feel more content while on a cycle, almost a zen state. Not everyone is like that and people that jump into such potent compound often are the individuals that give aas a bad rap and why they continue to be villianized by the media. I personally think you need test in every cycle and thus should be done by itself to determine the proper levels needed then you place the other peices of the puzzle together to make them all fit precisely to adhear to ones own personal needs.

J-41-SD- really good point that I didn't consider that much. The psychological effects seem pretty immense. I felt like king of the fkin world at the onset of the test E.

I agree with you. Clomid wrecked me... I started getting pretty emotional toward the end of my cycle as well but I'm guessing I had some seriously elevated estrogen levels because I stopped taking an AI not too far into it to kind of test my own body to see how it would react to the aromatase activity and increase in estrogen. Those feeling have since subsided during my PCT and introduction of an AI.

Imgetbigger- Definitely! My appetite was being severely hindered at the start of my cycle from the venlafaxine I was taking. I stopped taking it and my appetite bounced back pretty quickly and almost immediately my gains sky-rocketed.

Has anyone ever taken a new compound and had any very serious sides well above the norm?

[magic32]

I'm just curious if there are other more empirical and research based reasons behind it since people are so BLATANTLY adamant about it like its a sin to do anything else.

This may be occasionally true.
However, as evidenced within this thread which has been on the whole a well executed debate with fervent rebuttals on both sides, it is NOT the consensus.

There will always be those who wish to accelerate aspects of their life, and may or may not suffer because of it. All one can do is direct them towards safety, which is the primary reason for any guideline, and caution them to listen to their bodies regardless of their chosen cycles. I don't think anyone here has stated that your advanced primary cycle attitude is WRONG for those who as you prefaced it have performed the requisite research, but rather set forth from multiple vantage points to defend the prevailing view of slow progression which you initially brought under fire.

The sum of the matter is that there are different strokes for...well you know, but as long as either method (advanced or delayed cycling) is undertaken in a mature, informed and responsible (and many have had issue w/this word in relation to aas) manner then so be it. We are after all adults, and at least hopefully accountable for our actions.

[J-41-sd]

This is probably the most intelligent and debatable thread that I have come across on this or any board for quite some time. Keep this one bumped I am curious to see what kind of insite we can accumulate through this discussion.

[Serotonin]

This may be occasionally true.
However, as evidenced within this thread which has been on the whole a well executed debate with fervent rebuttals on both sides, it is NOT the consensus.

There will always be those who wish to accelerate aspects of their life, and may or may not suffer because of it. All one can do is direct them towards safety, which is the primary reason for any guideline, and caution them to listen to their bodies regardless of their chosen cycles. I don't think anyone here has stated that your advanced primary cycle attitude is WRONG for those who as you prefaced it have performed the requisite research, but rather set forth from multiple vantage points to defend the prevailing view of slow progression which you initially brought under fire.

The sum of the matter is that there are different strokes for...well you know, but as long as either method (advanced or delayed cycling) is undertaken in a mature, informed and responsible (and many have had issue w/this word in relation to aas) manner then so be it. We are after all adults, and at least hopefully accountable for our actions.

This is pretty much the way I feel about it magic. I'm sure many people probably do more sophisticated cycles for their first time anyways but just don't say a whole lot about it for fear of ridicule, which is something I think is pretty absurd of people to do.

[Big]

There has never been a study conducted on "steroid cycles"; the co-administration of multiple anabolic steroid compounds at once. Never, ever. "Steroid Cycles" are not based on any type of scientific evidence. This is just the fact of the matter. No such studies have been conducted, for ethical reasons primarily.

Thus, all of our procedures on based almost entirely on anecdotal evidence.

There is no absolute corrrect way to run a steroid cycle, although we do have some very educated guidelines. However, when it comes down to questions like "What is better, DBOL or TEST for a 1st cycle?", there is simply no correct answer.

how can you be so certain no such studies have never been conducted?

[Big]

It's a fact. There has never been a study involving the co-administration of multilpe anabolic steroid compounds on humans, let alone a study on bodybuilders.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just wondering how you came to this conclusion? "It's a fact" doesn't really back up the claim. I'm simply saying couldn't it be possible that such studies were conducted but not publicized?

[Big]

I'm aware of studies conducted that are both illegal and unethical, who's to say that studies weren't conducted without the blessing of the government, or in countries that have different views on "controlled substances". If your claim is that the US government never conducted such studies, I could see some merit to the claim, but to say no one in the whole world has ever conducted such studies seems unlikely. Again I'm not saying it has happened, but I certainly wouldn't say conclusively that it has never happened.

[Big]

http://ats.ctsnetjournals.org/cgi/content/full/75/2/325
off topic but you may get my point...

[Big]

I was just playing "devil's advocate" for the sake of discussion, but I agree, if they exist without our knowledge than that hardly applies.

[Merc..]

It is illegal.

Anabolic steroids are highly controlled substances, surounded by a large, dark blanket of misconception. For ethical reasons, the government would never allow these studies to occur. It would be like conducting a study on mixing street drugs like Cocaine and Xanax.

Guys there are many studies on FDA approved HRT meds ( deca ,test ,anavar winny all FDA approved meds ) How do think the FDA approves meds ? By conducting studies to see how the meds that are pending approval( takes like 7 years or so) are safe for humans to take .


Merc.

[Merc..]

Individually yes, but not used in a "steroid cycle", the co-administration of multiple anabolic steroid compounds.

In other words, there has never been a study conducted involving the co-administration of FDA approved HRT medications(Deca, testosterone, Anavar, Winstrol).

I understand what your saying but I have seen double blind placebo studies on HRT patients using nandrolone (deca ) and test E. I think I have one on my CPU but not sure .


Merc.

[Merc..]

I have been looking for the one I was speaking about . But heres one from pubmed. Using test , deca and winny.

Department of Pharmacology, University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio, 7703 Floyd Curl Drive, San Antonio, TX 78229, United States.

In humans, anabolic androgenic steroid (AAS) use has been associated with hyperactivity and disruption of circadian rhythmicity. We used an animal model to determine the impact of AAS on the development and expression of circadian function. Beginning on day 68 gonadally intact male rats received testosterone , nandrolone , or stanozolol via constant release pellets for 60 days; gonadally intact controls received vehicle pellets. Wheel running was recorded in a 12:12 LD cycle and constant dim red light (RR) before and after AAS implants. Post-AAS implant, circadian activity phase, period and mean level of wheel running wheel activity were compared to baseline measures. Post-AAS phase response to a light pulse at circadian time 15 h was also tested. To determine if AAS differentially affects steroid receptor coactivator (SRC) expression we measured SRC-1 and SRC-2 protein in brain. Running wheel activity was significantly elevated by testosterone, significantly depressed by nandrolone, and unaffected by stanozolol. None of the AAS altered measures of circadian rhythmicity or phase response. While SRC-1 was unaffected by AAS exposure, SRC-2 was decreased by testosterone in the hypothalamus. Activity levels, phase of peak activity and circadian period all changed over the course of development from puberty to adulthood. Development of activity was clearly modified by AAS exposure as testosterone significantly elevated activity levels and nandrolone significantly suppressed activity relative to controls. Thus, AAS exposure differentially affects both the magnitude and direction of developmental changes in activity levels depending in part on the chemical composition of the AAS.

PMID: 17716697 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

[Merc..]

LOL

I am not trying to argue I just want to be clear on that right from jump...

The FDA allows these types of test on animals to get FDA approval.

I have so much stuff on my PC I have to look for the one on humans I had..

Merc.

[Merc..]

I will keep looking for the study I have . I am pretty sure its on deca and test used on gaining mass for aids wasting patients not bodybuilding..

This is a good discussion ....

Merc.

[taiboxa]

it all boils down to one thing.

LEARNING YOUR BODY

your start low build up and find what and how u respond.
simple as that
anything else stated in here is just overly complicated mumbojumbo to justify ones' perspective on what they want to run and when.

experience is the best teacher and thats that.

[Merc..]

it all boils down to one thing.

LEARNING YOUR BODY

your start low build up and find what and how u respond.
simple as that
anything else stated in here is just overly complicated mumbojumbo to justify ones' perspective on what they want to run and when.

experience is the best teacher and thats that.

Dam Tia I think you would read this thread long thread.( you probably didnt lol)



Merc.

[taiboxa]

Dam Tia I think you would read this thread long thread.( you probably didnt lol)



Merc.

**** no.. for such a simple ordeal you all start plucking away at the biochemics behind it.. i spend enuff time reading other more important shit .. like HOW TO BEAT LOSE YOUR VIRGINITY in 3 DAYS! than to spend 8minutes to scroll through 2 pages of a thread that seems to have the same info that is reguergitated day in and day out ><

[Merc..]

**** no.. for such a simple ordeal you all start plucking away at the biochemics behind it.. i spend enuff time reading other more important shit .. like HOW TO BEAT LOSE YOUR VIRGINITY in 3 DAYS! than to spend 8minutes to scroll through 2 pages of a thread that seems to have the same info that is reguergitated day in and day out ><

HAHAHA

For some resaon I knew your respose would be along those lines ..

I seen ya in lounge gettin down with the Expat. (you go Tia )




Merc.

[taiboxa]

HAHAHA

For some resaon I knew your respose would be along those lines ..

I seen ya in lounge gettin down with the Expat. (you go Tia )




Merc.

she's my baybay u hush bout her!

[Merc..]

she's my baybay u hush bout her!

I think you guys have a little crush on eachother..






Merc.

[palqkat]

I agree with the OP at 100% and I'll tell u why.

I'll give u an example with Anabolics 2007

This guy (William) is an expert in steroid thing, he is very knowlegable and high respected steroid consultant around the world right ? If u read his books, HE NEVER RECOMmEND ONLY TEST FOR FIRST CYCLE.

Look at some of simple cycle for begginers, Deca and d-bol, test and EQ, orals only, yes, orals only

What about Nolva? If u make u own research u'll find how many studies there are that show nolva not rise natural testosteron production, but there are also many that said: yes Nolva rise testosterone . SO what to do what to do? I fell that all intertnet boards hate Clomid and as well some of u, recommend only Nolva as PCT 40/40/20/20 but u can't be sure, it's very complicated thing.

As well ORAL ONLY, yes all of u say (most) oral only sux. Yes dbol only maybe sux, but what about a good structured cycle with Anavar and dbol?

next thing, about hepatoxity of oral steroids . Do u guys look at the studies ?
Do u know how much and for how long u have to run dbol to get a hepatoxity? I remember here I read one thread about that, good read.


So my question is : Why all the science in the books, all the steroid experts, higly respected all around the world don't agree with many things on Internet boards?

tell me guys, which AAS is created by bodybuilder?

no offence here, just my 0,02

[Serotonin]

The main reason I picked a 3 compound cycle my first time is based off of my own personal beliefs on how using AAS does irreparable damage to the HPTA. The one thing you can find lots and lots of studies on is hypogonadism caused by AAS use, or even low sperm and infertility. From my understanding of the HPTA, pretty much any cycle will shut down the testes because you're adding way more test or compounds that act like test on the hypothalamus' feedback loop, leading to the non-release of GnRH... which then leads to testicular atrophy.

So, all that said I'm not looking to become a monster. Being 275 and 12% bodyfat is not my goal and never will be. I'm trying to maximize my results from the cycles I do. I like fighting as a sport and am in school to be a doctor so I can't even run many cycles for a LONG time because they do blood tests upon entering med school.

After reading everyone's thoughts on why things are the way they are, I'm leaning more toward people just making their own educated decisions. Granted, we all know how many smacktards are out there that will probably do silly shit like cruise on 10 different compounds for 3 years and wonder why there body is wrecked, but I'm not talking about them. AAS are a very effective tool that just seem far too dynamic to me to be so cut and dry as many make them out to be. Perhaps I'm lucky, the only real side I experienced was acne. Maybe a DHT would cause me more problems, I don't know but again its the risk I'm willing to take since I'm using AAS anyhow. You shouldn't be using them if you aren't willing to take risks because thats the nature of the beast.