is sut worth it?

[(1*)]

i've read for my answer but am still confused. i can get either 12 weeks of test e @ 2 shots a week, 250 e (500 mg a week)
or 12 weeks of sust @ 2 shots a week, 250 e. (500 mg a week)
some of the reading i read says that sust should be taken 3 to 4 times a week though.. will it be a waist to do twice a week??
will there be any advantage to using the sust instead of the e?
thanks in advanced.

[PT]

go for the test enth then and shoot it twice a week

[Kratos]

You can do either, but I prefer 1 ester, go with the enth imo.

[legobricks]

As stated, either or but 1 ester would be best. You can shoot sust twice a week only to take advantage of the long esters in it as the short esters are so small. BUT it will increase sides to a certain degree. From my experience, some are more sensative to sides and others arent affected. So for a first cycle enanthate would be your better choice. Most like shooting sust EOD, and for me I like pinning so anything is fine.

[Nstart]

I did my first cycle using sus only and I absolutely loved it. I put on more mass then I had expected and the only side effects I had was bloating and acne on the upper back.

[Budk024]

I did a cycle of andropen , which is similar mix of tests and I saw some really good gains. If you do decide to go with the sust you should definately should eod or at least e3d. Even shooting eod I still saw some pretty bad sides so still be careful and be prepared.

[Sculpture]

I loooove sustanon and i only shoot it once a week. Also the estrogen related side effects (bloating and bitch tits) are less prominent with sustanon than they r with test e.

[lex57]

I loooove sustanon and i only shoot it once a week. Also the estrogen related side effects (bloating and bitch tits) are less prominent with sustanon than they r with test e.

really? i bet if i shoot test e twice a week compared to your sust once per week my sides a minimal if any compared to yours. sust should never be shot only once per week. it has prop and phenylprop esters, prop should be shot AT LEAST eod and phenylprop e3d. most people will say prop everyday so when you shoot the sust those 2 tests are out of your system for 4 to 5 days thus causing definat test imbalances which in turn will cause some sides. so sust should be shot eod. just my 2 cents.

[(1*)]

thanks for the responses. last cycle i did was test cyp / deca . i had BAD acne for a while. kinda ruins the whole no shirt on the beach thing. guess i'll go with eth to see less sides.

[Rookie1974]

lower your dose...
sus is good stuff and I only shoot 1x week thats the whole point of the mix.

[Rookie1974]

really? i bet if i shoot test e twice a week compared to your sust once per week my sides a minimal if any compared to yours. sust should never be shot only once per week. it has prop and phenylprop esters, prop should be shot AT LEAST eod and phenylprop e3d. most people will say prop everyday so when you shoot the sust those 2 tests are out of your system for 4 to 5 days thus causing definat test imbalances which in turn will cause some sides. so sust should be shot eod. just my 2 cents.

The whole point of the mix is to string out the length of time between inj...
get a more sustained release ...sustanon .

you should only redose every half life anyhow....titrate the stuff in...isnt test e half life 14 days or so?

[lex57]

The whole point of the mix is to string out the length of time between inj...
get a more sustained release ...sustanon .

you should only redose every half life anyhow....titrate the stuff in...isnt test e half life 14 days or so?

so are you saying that test e's half life is 14 days therefore it should be shot once every 2 weeks....? and as i said in my first post sust has the prop ester in it and it has a half life of 2 days right? therefore for the best results it would be taken eod regardless of the longer esters. the shorter esters are what are in question here not the longer. for example if you had a mix of tren ace and tren e, and shot it once per week the tren ace is basically a waste. its in and out of you system in a couple of days. would you shoot tren ace once per week? of course not......could you yes but you would be so up and down it would be sick. what would be disadvantag to shooting eod. i mean 0.5ml eod would basically be the same as 500 mg/week. but with more even blood levels.

[Njord]

lower your dose...
sus is good stuff and I only shoot 1x week thats the whole point of the mix.

No it isn't. For HRT or TRT, sure. But for bodybuilding purposes the whole point is to reach the highest possible blood serum levels and keep them as steady as possible.

And you never want to wait until the next half life before injecting again. This would have your hormone levels bouncing all over the place.

[Rookie1974]

so are you saying that test e's half life is 14 days therefore it should be shot once every 2 weeks....? and as i said in my first post sust has the prop ester in it and it has a half life of 2 days right? therefore for the best results it would be taken eod regardless of the longer esters. the shorter esters are what are in question here not the longer. for example if you had a mix of tren ace and tren e, and shot it once per week the tren ace is basically a waste. its in and out of you system in a couple of days. would you shoot tren ace once per week? of course not......could you yes but you would be so up and down it would be sick. what would be disadvantag to shooting eod. i mean 0.5ml eod would basically be the same as 500 mg/week. but with more even blood levels.

Ok fellas I know this goes againist most of the stuff that is written on here, but read any pharmacology text.......dosing is optimum at every half life.

You reach max blood levels at (plateau) at 4 half lives 95% or so....want a higher blood level???? increase the dose/volume of the injection. This is done to titrate the injectied dose to the rate of breakdown of the compound by the body (Liver). (balance the two) To inject more often will bump the concentration in the body.. In actuality Blood levels would be titrated with the aid of a test blood level in a clinical cenerio.

The sustanon mix allows the short esters to breakdown first giving earler effect and the longer esters breakdown slower giving a more sustained release ....hence "Sustanon"

Whats the half life of Eth...and Cyp?

[Njord]

I don't know why I even bother arguing this. The main purpose of a steroid cycle for muscle building purposes is to reach the highest blood serum levels that a certain dosage will allow. You also want the least fluctuations in those serum levels to reduce the possibility of adverse side effects. Taking sustanon once a week will fail to do both.
Now titrate that!

[Rookie1974]

I don't know why I even bother arguing this. The main purpose of a steroid cycle for muscle building purposes is to reach the highest blood serum levels that a certain dosage will allow. You also want the least fluctuations in those serum levels to reduce the possibility of adverse side effects. Taking sustanon once a week will fail to do both.
Now titrate that!

Maybe cuz your wrong???

At some point injection=removal and levels plateau....if you don't want any fluctuation than your going to have to stop metabolism...IE DEAD MOFO...or start a constant infusion...if you like walkin around with a pin in your leg....plus the more inj/week the greater your chance of infection/nerve damage/ injecting a vessel ect....

The point is to be within the Therapeutic window....to much = more sides.....too little = no clinical effect

So increase the dose.....Want higher blood levels put more in...

Whats the Half-life of those compounds?

[Kratos]

You're thinking rookie and that's good, but Njord is right on this one. The longer esters don't wait until the shorter esters are done releasing to begin releasing test. They start releasing test immediatly, just at a slower rate than the short esters. Less frequent injections mean your blood levels spike and drop, spike and drop. I would say 2x a week is not awful for sust, but best results would be eod.

[jaydub]

You're thinking rookie and that's good, but Njord is right on this one. The longer esters don't wait until the shorter esters are done releasing to begin releasing test. They start releasing test immediatly, just at a slower rate than the short esters. Less frequent injections mean your blood levels spike and drop, spike and drop. I would say 2x a week is not awful for sust, but best results would be eod.

exact reason I hate sust. why use that when you can get more even levels with good ol test e. i just see no benefit in sustanon

[lex57]

Maybe cuz your wrong???

At some point injection=removal and levels plateau....if you don't want any fluctuation than your going to have to stop metabolism...IE DEAD MOFO...or start a constant infusion...if you like walkin around with a pin in your leg....plus the more inj/week the greater your chance of infection/nerve damage/ injecting a vessel ect....

The point is to be within the Therapeutic window....to much = more sides.....too little = no clinical effect

So increase the dose.....Want higher blood levels put more in...

Whats the Half-life of those compounds?

ok here, Propionate 2 days,Phenylpropionate 4.5 days,Isocaproate 9 days ,Decanoate 15 days these are the 4 in sust. now Enanthate is 10.5 days. Cypionate is 12 days .

so by your rationale sust would be ideal every 15 days? test e every 11 days and test c every 12 days. and your chances of infection and nerve damage are greater? i dont think either one is greater if you use the proper technique than if you shoot once per week or once per day. and going into a blood vessel is not an issue unless you do not aspirate . in which case it will be the same also due to poor technique. i think you are trying to apply medical science to bodybuilding science and it is not working out for you. and you still avoided my question earlier about what the drawback would be to inject 0.5 ml eod. besides what you think about nerve damage, infection or bloood vessel injections. if thats it then there really is no difference. so if you were to take inject winny how often would you do it?

[Rookie1974]

You're thinking rookie and that's good, but Njord is right on this one. The longer esters don't wait until the shorter esters are done releasing to begin releasing test. They start releasing test immediatly, just at a slower rate than the short esters. Less frequent injections mean your blood levels spike and drop, spike and drop. I would say 2x a week is not awful for sust, but best results would be eod.

you have to ask why is sustanon even made?

so what happens to the longer esters?....they build up. and continually increase the test load in the body....but where is your titration endpoint? That has to be calculated by half-life or blood test.

as the shorter esters finish (early) than the balance shifts to the longer esters proving more of the elevated testosterone levels as you continually inject more than had been metabolized from the prior injection.

And at that point why even play with a multiester mix

True you cant put a timer on it....but that is the "chemical" attempt of the esters.

example EOD inj....lets say prop is at 50% of origionally injected dose...the longer esters are still there and "build up"

[Rookie1974]

ok here, Propionate 2 days,Phenylpropionate 4.5 days,Isocaproate 9 days ,Decanoate 15 days these are the 4 in sust. now Enanthate is 10.5 days. Cypionate is 12 days .

so by your rationale sust would be ideal every 15 days? test e every 11 days and test c every 12 days. and your chances of infection and nerve damage are greater? i dont think either one is greater if you use the proper technique than if you shoot once per week or once per day. and going into a blood vessel is not an issue unless you do not aspirate. in which case it will be the same also due to poor technique. i think you are trying to apply medical science to bodybuilding science and it is not working out for you. and you still avoided my question earlier about what the drawback would be to inject 0.5 ml eod. besides what you think about nerve damage, infection or bloood vessel injections. if thats it then there really is no difference. so if you were to take inject winny how often would you do it?

every time you break the skin you risk all the above.....the more you break the skin the higher your risk.

Yea check your pharmacopeia.....TE and TC Every 2-4 weeks now why would that be?

Want higher levels inj more at each half-life or inject more often. The problem with option 2 is you'll have no idea what dose your on. Unless someone has the clearance calcs for TE or TC

[Kratos]

I don't think you are stupid but you are overcomplicating the shit out of something so simple. The long esters don't just sit there and wait thier turn, as for a titration endpoint I don't know where you are going with that. The blood is nowhere near saturated with testosterone so why wouldn't the long esters break down at their consistant and very predictable rate regadless of when you inject it? You will reach a max level in a few weeks and it can be calculated when based on the rate of breakdown vs the amount being injected.

[Rookie1974]

I don't think you are stupid but you are overcomplicating the shit out of something so simple. The long esters don't just sit there and wait thier turn, as for a titration endpoint I don't know where you are going with that. The blood is nowhere near saturated with testosterone so why wouldn't the long esters break down at their consistant and very predictable rate regadless of when you inject it? You will reach a max level in a few weeks and it can be calculated when based on the rate of breakdown vs the amount being injected.

They dont "wait" but they do breakdown slower giving a more longterm sustained release with more even consistent levels.

They do break down at a consistent and predictable rate by the CYP450 system in the liver 3A4 i believe....but that rate is calculated by the Tmax of CYP450 and reflected in the Half-life. The Tmax does not change!!! Put more in but the rate of breakdown will be the same.

Sort of like saying that your car will run faster if you put more gas in the tank. The car has a max speed---like the Tmax----putting in more gas---test E--- will not make the car run faster.

But realize I am talking about the breakdown end here the detox end of the equation.

[lex57]

every time you break the skin you risk all the above.....the more you break the skin the higher your risk.

Yea check your pharmacopeia.....TE and TC Every 2-4 weeks now why would that be?

Want higher levels inj more at each half-life or inject more often. The problem with option 2 is you'll have no idea what dose your on. Unless someone has the clearance calcs for TE or TC

like i said i am not saying you are wrong in the whole sense. but you are speaking of sustanon as it pertains to something as treating andropause . but here we are not treating andropause. we are looking ideal levels to acheive the sustained test levels for bodybuilding. not to be able to get wood. and if you are now saying that test e and cyp should be shot every 2-4 weeks you are just weakening your argument. because you cannot convince anyone on this board of that. sorry. and i understand anytime you break the skin it is an oportunistic chance for infection, however with proper technique the chances should be relatively the same. maybe one time in a thousand for instance. that number wont change. everytime you stick its a thousand to 1. (just using it for instance.) whether it be daily or weekly. thats where i am coming from. i guess we can just assume from this all that you shoot sust once a week and the rest of us would probably shoot eod. no big deal i guess. i am out. later guys. good topic though.

[Rookie1974]

like i said i am not saying you are wrong in the whole sense. but you are speaking of sustanon as it pertains to something as treating andropause . but here we are not treating andropause. we are looking ideal levels to acheive the sustained test levels for bodybuilding. not to be able to get wood. and if you are now saying that test e and cyp should be shot every 2-4 weeks you are just weakening your argument. because you cannot convince anyone on this board of that. sorry. and i understand anytime you break the skin it is an oportunistic chance for infection, however with proper technique the chances should be relatively the same. maybe one time in a thousand for instance. that number wont change. everytime you stick its a thousand to 1. (just using it for instance.) whether it be daily or weekly. thats where i am coming from. i guess we can just assume from this all that you shoot sust once a week and the rest of us would probably shoot eod. no big deal i guess. i am out. later guys. good topic though.

could shoot smaller doses EOD but why??? Not taking advantage of the esters.

To maintain your plateu Test E Test C should be shot at every half-life....as with any drug....want higher levels shoot more per halflife.

[Kratos]

Ester groups are added to improve the solubility of testosterone in oil, which in turn slows the release of the testosterone from its injection site into the blood stream. As a testosterone ester enters the blood stream, the ester group is cleaved off by esterase enzymes in a process known as hydrolization. Yes I'm with you so far. Once the ester group has been removed by these enzymes, the testosterone is returned to its bioidentical form, thus making it bioavailable and ready to perform its various actions and effects. Were still together right? If your argument is that you are pushing enzamatic maximum density assume you are wrong and the enzymes do not care what ester they are cleaving, whatever molacule makes it's way to the enzyme will be hydrolized. If you were right what would happen to the poeple who use deca and test? The deca would be stuck in limbo. IMO you are doing a lot of mental masturbation over noting becaue you had a fresh year bio class on enzymes where you had to plot graph enzamatic activity. We arn't hitting the enzymes with nearly as much as they can handle invivo. Not only do most cycles include multiple esters but there is a big difference in quantity from one user to another. Eod with sust may be a little overkill but whatever.

[magic32]

You all make excellent points with respect to your stances on this issue, and there are elements of correctness to them all.

As for the rise and fall of short esters in blends, I think there will always be division here, but there is also truth. Because the short ester rises and falls in advance of the long ones during less frequent injections doesn’t make it useless or senseless as some assert. Such would ONLY be the case if you were taking Prop alone. The Prop still contributes to the total dosage, as well as provides quicker results even though it diminishes (metabolizes, degrades, and is eliminated) sooner. The problem is that people generally think of Sust as being two-dimensional, making it superior to independent shorts or longs in the minds of some and inferior to others. But rarely do I see the level of examination necessary to reach the cusp of this matter.

------------------------------------------------

For example, one key often overlooked in this debate is the proportion of esters within the blend (Prop 30 mg, Phenyl 60mg, Iso 60 mg, Deca 100 mg.). You’ll immediately notice that Prop is significantly lower, whereas the mid-longs are twice as high, and the long is more than 3x as high. This ratio permits Prop (designed to release rapidly) to immediately impact the blend, BUT NOT detrimentally affect it by its relatively rapid decline...again because you’re only losing a largely insubstantial one twelfth of the total 250mgs, which has served you well and diminished…hardly a waste.

But by far the most overlooked, underappreciated, and often misunderstood element of Sust is also ironically its greatest attribute. This is the key and fundamental premise behind NOT needing to inject it as often as a traditional short, regardless of conventional usage and theory, namely the work of it’s mid-longs. I won’t go into detail, but it is these esters Iso nearer to Prop and Phenyl to Deca (also evidenced by their carbons), that meld the two together by releasing semi-short and pseudo-long dosages respectively. It is this characteristic that makes Sust strong and available from EW to EM injections, depending on the application…for which EW better suits the bb’er. For more on this see: http://www.ftmguide.org/ttypes.html

Of course this too will and always has been argued for and against, as is the nature of man.
But these are the facts, do with them as you will.

[Rookie1974]

You all make excellent points with respect to your stances on this issue, and there are elements of correctness to them all.

As for the rise and fall of short esters in blends, I think there will always be division here, but there is also truth. Because the short ester rises and falls in advance of the long ones during less frequent injections doesn’t make it useless or senseless as some assert. Such would ONLY be the case if you were taking Prop alone. The Prop still contributes to the total dosage, as well as provides quicker results even though it diminishes (metabolizes, degrades, and is eliminated) sooner. The problem is that people generally think of Sust as being two-dimensional, making it superior to independent shorts or longs in the minds of some and inferior to others. But rarely do I see the level of examination necessary to reach the cusp of this matter.

------------------------------------------------

For example, one key often overlooked in this debate is the proportion of esters within the blend (Prop 30 mg, Phenyl 60mg, Iso 60 mg, Deca 100 mg.). You’ll immediately notice that Prop is significantly lower, whereas the mid-longs are twice as high, and the long is more than 3x as high. This ratio permits Prop (designed to release rapidly) to immediately impact the blend, BUT NOT detrimentally affect it by its relatively rapid decline...again because you’re only losing a largely insubstantial one twelfth of the total 250mgs, which has served you well and diminished…hardly a waste.

But by far the most overlooked, underappreciated, and often misunderstood element of Sust is also ironically its greatest attribute. This is the key and fundamental premise behind NOT needing to inject it as often as a traditional short, regardless of conventional usage and theory, namely the work of it’s mid-longs. I won’t go into detail, but it is these esters Iso nearer to Prop and Phenyl to Deca (also evidenced by their carbons), that meld the two together by releasing semi-short and pseudo-long dosages respectively. It is this characteristic that makes Sust strong and available from EW to EM injections, depending on the application…for which EW better suits the bb’er. For more on this see: http://www.ftmguide.org/ttypes.html

Of course this too will and always has been argued for and against, as is the nature of man.
But these are the facts, do with them as you will.

Very nicely said!!!!! and I agree 100%

[Rookie1974]

Ester groups are added to improve the solubility of testosterone in oil, which in turn slows the release of the testosterone from its injection site into the blood stream. As a testosterone ester enters the blood stream, the ester group is cleaved off by esterase enzymes in a process known as hydrolization. Yes I'm with you so far. Once the ester group has been removed by these enzymes, the testosterone is returned to its bioidentical form, thus making it bioavailable and ready to perform its various actions and effects. Were still together right? If your argument is that you are pushing enzamatic maximum density assume you are wrong and the enzymes do not care what ester they are cleaving, whatever molacule makes it's way to the enzyme will be hydrolized. If you were right what would happen to the poeple who use deca and test? The deca would be stuck in limbo. IMO you are doing a lot of mental masturbation over noting becaue you had a fresh year bio class on enzymes where you had to plot graph enzamatic activity. We arn't hitting the enzymes with nearly as much as they can handle invivo. Not only do most cycles include multiple esters but there is a big difference in quantity from one user to another. Eod with sust may be a little overkill but whatever.

Well...ok first off Im an MD.

Im not talking about hydrolization....but the actual breakdown of Testosterone to elimination from the body. The ester simply delays its release.

I assume you mean Deca Durabolin ? I have to assume it is also broken down by 3A4 (but never looked that one up) The enzyme that eliminates it from the body dont give a dam which one it works on.

two steps here first release from the ester....a sort of time delay process depending upon the length of the ester...

second elimination from the body due to 3A4...

The molecule has to be released off its ester to be worked on by 3A4 and to work on muscle cells.

[AaronJM1984]

Good thread so far guys, I am waiting to start a sustanon , dbol cycle, was planning on injecting 2 or 3 times a week, very informative so far guys! Thinking either Monday and Thursday or Monday, Wednesday, Friday

[Kratos]

Well...ok first off Im an MD. I'm always skeptical when someone claims this, but ok. I am not an MD but not too far off.

Im not talking about hydrolization....but the actual breakdown of Testosterone to elimination from the body. The ester simply delays its release. Then what are we talking about here, elimination from the body of testosterone would only be dependant on the total amount in mg. Now you have made your argument have nothing to do with sustanon.

I assume you mean Deca Durabolin ? I have to assume it is also broken down by 3A4 (but never looked that one up) The enzyme that eliminates it from the body dont give a dam which one it works on.

two steps here first release from the ester....a sort of time delay process depending upon the length of the ester...

second elimination from the body due to 3A4...again why are you talking about metabolism of the hormone itself pertaining to injection frequencey of esters?

The molecule has to be released off its ester to be worked on by 3A4 and to work on muscle cells.

I saw you viewing magic and was waiting for something good from you. I know there isn't much of the really short esters in the breakdown, good post. I still think more than once a week injection is benificial though. As you can see I admidted eod is overkill, but it seems to be the popular thing to say so rather than defend I reapeat sometimes.

[Rookie1974]

What is your training?

[Kratos]

pre-med bio major chem minor business minor
bio-medical engineering, I work in ortho implants
worked in hospital and retail pharmacies while in school and learned a lot about drugs
Clearly though as a doctor you would have a better working knowlege of the body as a whole.

[youngerlion]

i like the sus

[lex57]

i like the sus

are you an md too?

[Rookie1974]

pre-med bio major chem minor business minor
bio-medical engineering, I work in ortho implants
worked in hospital and retail pharmacies while in school and learned a lot about drugs
Clearly though as a doctor you would have a better working knowlege of the body as a whole.

Good luck in med school...Its rough!

Most of this is pure pharmacology/pharmokinetics.

First couple of chapters of any pharmacology text.

[Kratos]

I went to grad school instead of med school, I already work in ortho implants. What type of doc are you?

[Rookie1974]

Internal Medicine

Hope theres no hard feelings..

[Kratos]

of course not, its raining out and I'm cleaning the house today. It was fun to have something to talk about.

[Pooks]

my first cycle was SUST 500mg a week...
I only shot it once a week..

u kind of lose out on the prop in it by doing that.. but nevertheless i put on big lbs.