Fighter looking for the perfect stack

[kynetguy]

thats pretty solid.. is that just for cycle, or all the time? and do one of those meals serve as pwo or is that extra?

kyne you GOTTA go skim! haha. besides the fat and calories, it has more protein than 2% or 4% milk

I like 2% and whole simply because it tastes better. There is nothing better than a rich creamy glass of whole milk.

Most of my milk consumption is skim because most of it is in shakes. I might have a couple glasses a week that I drink with a meal. If I do, then I will skip some other fat source to compensate. Maybe skip out on some peanut butter or some cheese or eat chicken or tuna instead of beef.

Now when I have a cheat meal, I might do something totally bad for me and have a glass of whole milk with 2 pieces of pizza, or eat a piece of cheesecake and milk. I will only do something like that every 4-6 weeks though. a pint of milk and cheesecake case enough carbs and fat for about 2 days. LOL I just hit the treadmill the next morning AND a PWO cardio as well.

[T_Own]

haha nice cheat. yeah i'm just givin you a hard time, i never used to drink skim milk. i don't mind the taste too much. i don't drink it too often though, usually just water

[john1181]

winstrol gives speed as told by 100meter dash olympic runners..makes you fast...so thats good, plus i dont think that along with hgh their would be a problem with the tissues getting weak...but that would probably mean that the winny would have to come in later on in the cycle...what about anti estrogens? they makwe joints hurt also that doesnt mean they will damage or make you weak...after all there are very good supps out their for joint and cartillege support..my joints been hurting from the adex but when i rip on the bag it doesnt hurt..maybe its the glucosamine,chondrotine and the var..let me know about that theory with the hgh...because i read that gh makes your joints like wire and winny is nothing next to gh we all know that

[john1181]

ok, now i realize that this post is on page 3 and i responded to something on page one so the topic is way off...but anyway i was just wondering on 189's no winny comment for fighters.....

[one8nine]

winstrol gives speed as told by 100meter dash olympic runners..makes you fast...so thats good, plus i dont think that along with hgh their would be a problem with the tissues getting weak...but that would probably mean that the winny would have to come in later on in the cycle...what about anti estrogens? they makwe joints hurt also that doesnt mean they will damage or make you weak...after all there are very good supps out their for joint and cartillege support..my joints been hurting from the adex but when i rip on the bag it doesnt hurt..maybe its the glucosamine,chondrotine and the var..let me know about that theory with the hgh...because i read that gh makes your joints like wire and winny is nothing next to gh we all know that

you are wrong
read on winny

steroid profiles
http://www.steroid.com/drugprof.php
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catsteroids.htm

[kynetguy]

haha nice cheat. yeah i'm just givin you a hard time, i never used to drink skim milk. i don't mind the taste too much. i don't drink it too often though, usually just water

I am old, my days of caring about single digit body fat is long gone. :-) I am 37, married, and all that stuff. I just want to look really good. I don't have to be the biggest guy, the most cut guy or the strongest guy in the gym anymore.

My atheletic/sport involvement these days only consists of motorcycle racing. (WERA/CSS) Moderate cardio conditioning is essential, more is definately better though. Strength is definately a plus when throwing a bike around. It comes down to more endurance than anything.

I don't do any fighting any more. I used to compete in martial arts and would do local tough man contests. The tough man contests were always fun because anyone can enter. Nothing more entertaining than a street/bar fighter stepping in the ring when you are a trained fighter. I am sure you can relate to that. I did a lot of Tai Chi, Wushu, and Kempo. I have had a little Jujitsu, basically enough to get myself in trouble. LOL It's always nice to have some grappling skills. Especially with bar fighters. You never know when you might end up on the ground rolling around and need to arm bar someone and send them running with their tail tucked.

Of course I have had a few hay makers catch me off gaurd and ring my bell. SOmetimes good street/bar fighters can be tough to deal with because they are unpredictable. They fight without any real methods or art for, so to speak.

[kynetguy]

ok, now i realize that this post is on page 3 and i responded to something on page one so the topic is way off...but anyway i was just wondering on 189's no winny comment for fighters.....

Depends on who you talk to. But the general concenses is that it is not good.

Nevermind, I see 189 fixed you up.

[T_Own]

definitely know what you mean with that, kids fighting is about the same. whenever i box people (just for fun) i always like waiting til they get cocky, and throw that huge punch that everyone sees coming, then hit them with a nice blast double and put them right on their ass. good times haha

but what kind of motorcycles is that? i'm not really familiar with any kinds besides moto gp. but i do like bikes, i'm tryin to save up for a gixxer 750 and get myself in some trouble lol

staying on topic a littleee, john, even the slightest degrading in tendons/ligaments is detrimental in mma/wrestling/fighting. when people are putting all their power behind an attempt to take you down/tap you out, weak tendons is gonna be bad news, and you're fighting career would be over quick

[one8nine]

definitely know what you mean with that, kids fighting is about the same. whenever i box people (just for fun) i always like waiting til they get cocky, and throw that huge punch that everyone sees coming, then hit them with a nice blast double and put them right on their ass. good times haha

but what kind of motorcycles is that? i'm not really familiar with any kinds besides moto gp. but i do like bikes, i'm tryin to save up for a gixxer 750 and get myself in some trouble lol

staying on topic a littleee, john, even the slightest degrading in tendons/ligaments is detrimental in mma/wrestling/fighting. when people are putting all their power behind an attempt to take you down/tap you out, weak tendons is gonna be bad news, and you're fighting career would be over quick

wanna buy a pink gsxr 750?
i got 4500 left on the loan

[T_Own]

pink? does it look nice lol

[one8nine]

pink? does it look nice lol

its dirty but the plastics are candy pink and the frame is polished
~4k miles

[T_Own]

any pics? and how much

[one8nine]

any pics? and how much

lemme get some ill pm you
whatever i got left on the loan 4500 ish

[one8nine]

sorry to hijack but i cant post pics in pms

[T_Own]

it looks pretty nice but its really pink.. how much do you think some a flat black paint job would cost too?

and is that a yoshi on it?

[one8nine]

it looks pretty nice but its really pink.. how much do you think some a flat black paint job would cost too?

and is that a yoshi on it?

i dunno i think that job was 500$
yeah, slip on
gpr v1 damper
3.5" lowered, links in the back, triple tree adjust in the front
4 in corbin gel seat
12 plate kevlar drag clutch

[T_Own]

damn.. very nice. when are you tryin to sell it by?

is that you rockin the shades in there lol

[mmabeast]

Ok 189. Ive read your post on everything you know. I think I have a pretty good grip on Diet, carido, training and now would like your opinion on what my cycle should be. after reading through some of the types and their affects, and sides, im interested in several. Treh at the mid to end of the cycle, anavar to cut fat. Not 100% sure on test and mast prop.

I would like to see what you would recomend for me and my sisutation. Im at 264 as of this morning, im at 18%bf, and i need to be at no more than 10%, perferably 9 or less come march. The training aspect i have well in hand. I would just like your opinion as an overall premise.

[T_Own]

i still think you should diet down some naturally. a little change of that diet you posted earlier and you would lose weight quick.

what aren't you sure about with the test? thats pretty much a must have. masteron was just a suggestion but would work well for you

[one8nine]

i think before you cycle at all you need to drop bf%
maybe do a 6 week cycle of clen , take 2 weeks off with benedryl
then think about a cycle:

clen FAQ
Clen Faq. You better like it it took me ages.

then since its your first cycle,
1-6: clen
7-8: break from clen
9-14: clen
1-10: test prop 50mg ed
1-10: var 40mg-60mg ed
11-14: nolva 20g + proviron 50mg ed
9-12: hcg 500iu 2x a week

then you can take a break- this would be around the end of december
more clen
then by the end of march you can cycle again
test/tren /masteron

[jethro1]

Is that ur girls pink gsxr??

[one8nine]

Is that ur girls pink gsxr??

yes
after i got hit head on by an suv we both stopped riding

[kynetguy]

definitely know what you mean with that, kids fighting is about the same. whenever i box people (just for fun) i always like waiting til they get cocky, and throw that huge punch that everyone sees coming, then hit them with a nice blast double and put them right on their ass. good times haha

but what kind of motorcycles is that? i'm not really familiar with any kinds besides moto gp. but i do like bikes, i'm tryin to save up for a gixxer 750 and get myself in some trouble lol

staying on topic a littleee, john, even the slightest degrading in tendons/ligaments is detrimental in mma/wrestling/fighting. when people are putting all their power behind an attempt to take you down/tap you out, weak tendons is gonna be bad news, and you're fighting career would be over quick

Sportbikes. I ride a 2007 R1 on the street, have an 06 R6 and an 05 R1 track bikes. WERA/CSS is like motogp for privateers. It is amature racing.

I agree with the tendon comments. Not much hurts more than tendon pain. Someone gets you in a good arm bar and starts putting stress on the joints or tendons, the last thing you want is a dry joint or a brittle tendon. Pop a tendon and yea, you will pretty much be done.

Like I said, there are differing opinions on winny. Some have issues, some do not. Why chance it?

I personally think a straitup test cycle with some STRICT diet and extra efforts in the gym would do you wonders. If you want it badly enough, you will achieve. But it has to be in your heart. No magic potion will get you there. There are always going to be trade offs with about any chem you take. Test is probablly the only thing I can think of that would has zero negatives. Well, provided you keep estrogen in check.

[kynetguy]

i think before you cycle at all you need to drop bf%
maybe do a 6 week cycle of clen , take 2 weeks off with benedryl
then think about a cycle:

clen FAQ
Clen Faq. You better like it it took me ages.

then since its your first cycle,
1-6: clen
7-8: break from clen
9-14: clen
1-10: test prop 50mg ed
1-10: var 40mg-60mg ed
11-14: nolva 20g + proviron 50mg ed
9-12: hcg 500iu 2x a week

then you can take a break- this would be around the end of december
more clen
then by the end of march you can cycle again
test/tren/masteron

You should not take clen for 6 wks straight. YOu ned to take it two weeks, off two weeks, rince and repeat. You need time to allow your beta receptors to up-regulate. Clen's ability to antagonize them will become decreased and the clen will lose it's effectiveness.

Some people will take it 2 wks, and on the 3rd week, continue to take it, but take 50mg of benydryl every night, rinse and repeat.

I find that I have the best results with clen if I take it two weeks, off two weeks rinse and repeat. during the first off week I will take the benedryl at 50mg everynight. So I get the enhanced effect of the benedryl up-regulating my beta receptors as well as time off the clen which allows the receptors to up regulate natrually.

But definately, 6 weeks straight becomes counter productive and you do not get the same quality of effects by about mid way through week 3.

[john1181]

Depends on who you talk to. But the general concenses is that it is not good.

Nevermind, I see 189 fixed you up.

damn, your pretty smart there arent ya? for sure wasnt talking to you..but your smart so u had to comment..i'm sure 189 knows his shyt and my comments were question like not against anything he says..after all i know i dont know shyt about ass..i comment to learn not to act like i know and that based on what i read..i know what i have learned here and thats still a nothing close to what a lot of people know..so u dont gotta jump out like a lil squirl and act all smart kid...

[jethro1]

yes
after i got hit head on by an suv we both stopped riding

Damn that sucks bro. Just making sure u weren't cruising around on a pink bike,lol. A lady pulled out in front of me last week, i was real close to eating some asphalt.

[john1181]

only reason i was wondering is because of all these fighters and track runners using it....
[edit] Publicized abuse cases
Ben Johnson was stripped of his gold medal in the 100 meter sprint at the 1988 Summer Olympics when he tested positive for stanozolol after winning the final.[1]
Olimpiada Ivanova was stripped of her silver medal in the 10 kilometer walk at the 1997 World Championships in Athletics after she had tested positive for Stanozolol, and she was banned for two years.[2]
Vita Pavlysh was stripped of her gold medal in shot put at the 1999 IAAF World Indoor Championships after she had tested positive for Stanozolol. 5 years later at the 2004 IAAF World Indoor Championships in Budapest, Hungary, she won the title again only to fail the drug test for the same reason. She was again stripped of her title and banned from athletics for life.[3]
Rafael Palmeiro was suspended 10 days from Major League Baseball on August 1, 2005, after testing positive for steroids .[4] According to the published report in the New York Times, Stanozolol was the steroid detected in Palmeiro's system. This came not long after he testified before the United States House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform on steroid usage in baseball, and he denied ever using steroids.
Barry Bonds is accused of using Stanozolol in Game of Shadows, a book by Mark Fainaru-Wada and Lance Williams that documents the purported use of various steroids by Bonds since 1998. The accusations were first aired on 7 March 2006 by Sports Illustrated, which published excerpts from the book.[citation needed]
Tim Sylvia, mixed martial artist, and the former UFC Heavyweight Champion tested positive for Stanozolol after a championship bout in 2003. He was stripped of his title, and given a six month suspension by the Nevada State Athletic Commission.[citation needed]
Kimo Leopoldo, mixed martial artist, tested positive for Stanozolol before a match set on July 22nd 2006. The California State Athletic Commission barred Leopoldo from competing against Bas Rutten.[citation needed]
Halina Karnatsevich, marathon runner, tested positive for Stanozolol after the 2006 Grandma's Marathon. She was stripped of her 2006 title and suspended from competition for two years after testing positive for a banned substance.[citation needed]
Fernando Vargas, boxer, tested positive for Stanozolol during a post-fight mandatory drug screening after his defeat by rival Oscar De La Hoya. Vargas accepted full responsibility and was consequently fined $100,000 and suspended for nine months by the Nevada State Athletic Commission.
Rey Mysterio, professional wrestler, was accused of obtaining stanozol on March 19, 2007, when Sports Illustrated posted on its website an article in its continuing series investigating a steroid and HGH ring used by a number of professional athletes in several sports. That article mentioned several current and former WWE wrestlers, including Mysterio who was alleged to have also obtained nandrolone .
Salvador Carmona, footballer, tested positive for Stanozolol in 2005 and 2006. He was banned for life by the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) due to repeated drug offences. Tribunal Arbitral du Sport.[5]
Phil Baroni, former UFC and PRIDE Fighting Championship fighter, tested positive for Stanozolol following his June 22, 2007 fight against Frank Shamrock at Strikeforce: Judgment Day.[6]
K-1's 2007 World Grand Prix in Las Vegas finalist Zabit Samedov tested positive for Stanozolol following the August 11, 2007 event.[7]
John Hennigan (John Morrison in World Wrestling Entertainment) was caught with having used Stanozolol between June 2006 and February 2007 and was suspended for 30 days
Roger Clemens was reported to have been injected with Stanozolol (Winstrol ) by major league strength coach Brian McNamee during the 1998 baseball season.[8]
2008 Triple Crown hopeful Big Brown was reported to have been injected with Winstrol, which is legal in some states in US horse racing, by trainer Richard E. Dutrow Jr. [9]

[edit] References
^ [http://observer.guardian.co.uk/osm/s...270863,00.html The most corrupt race ever] Guardian Unlimited, August 1, 2004
^ Ivanova Sets First Record in Helsinki The Moscow Times.com, 8-8-2005
^ WOMEN'S SHOT-PUT CHAMPION BARRED FOR LIFE The New York Times, June 2, 2004
^ Popular Steroid Is at the Center of Palmeiro's Case - New York Times
^ "CAS 2006/A/1149 WADA v/ FMF & José Salvador Carmona Alvarez", May 16, 2007 Accessed May 17, 2007
^ Ken Pishna (2007-07-03). "Breaking News: Phil Baroni Tests Positive". MMAWeekly.com. Retrieved on 2007-07-03.
^ "Two Positive at K-1 World GP Vegas". Nokaut (August 17, 2007). Retrieved on 2007-08-17.
^ All-Star Roster Shows Up on Mitchell Report washingtonpost.com, 12-13-2007
^ Big Brown's legal doping a concern

[john1181]

i dont get it...marathon runners, mixed martial arts fighters all those sports at a pro level and non of these guys had problems with their joints...so you maybe come to wonder were they on something else?? maybe some hgh also!! who knows..so this is why i'm fking confused over here cause 189 knows his shyt no doubt but also their is proof that it doesnt cause harm to joints maybe pain who knows..idk i feel pain in all my joints from the adex like i said but i still rep out 65kg on each hand on the military dumbells for 6reps..i work out each muscle groop 3x's a week (no killer workouts...example chest...7sets bench..next wo 7sets incline, next wo 7 sets dips or decline)...but still..so anyway

[BadBarbie]

Excuse me!!! It's actually my bike!!

[one8nine]

i dont get it...marathon runners, mixed martial arts fighters all those sports at a pro level and non of these guys had problems with their joints...so you maybe come to wonder were they on something else?? maybe some hgh also!! who knows..so this is why i'm fking confused over here cause 189 knows his shyt no doubt but also their is proof that it doesnt cause harm to joints maybe pain who knows..idk i feel pain in all my joints from the adex like i said but i still rep out 65kg on each hand on the military dumbells for 6reps..i work out each muscle groop 3x's a week (no killer workouts...example chest...7sets bench..next wo 7sets incline, next wo 7 sets dips or decline)...but still..so anyway

its good for runners, not contact sports
adex causes dry joints, not weak tissue
Winstrol increases the rate of collagen synthesis, but this new collagen is very weak

There are many conflicting reports on tendon strength and Stanozolol , even in medical journals. Some reports state that it weakens tendons, others that it strengthens them (and some speculation on the internet among many "guru´s" is that it strengthens them unevenly, leading to possible injury). For this reason, it may be best for athletes in explosive or high-impact sports to stay away from this drug. It has certainly been shown to be beneficial in some bone ailments induced by glucocorticoid induced stress (5) as well as having collagen producing properties (11),

In this article, scientists measured the effect of the anabolic steroid stanozolol on cell replication and collagen synthesis in cultures of adult human dermal fibroblasts. Stanozolol (0.625-5 microg per ml) had no effect on fibroblast replication and cell viability (p = 0.764) but enhanced collagen synthesis (p < 0.01) in a dose-dependent manner (r = 0.907). Stanozolol also increased (by 2-fold) the mRNA levels of alpha1 (I) and alpha1 (III) procollagen and, to a similar extent, upregulated transforming growth factor-beta1 (TGF-beta1) mRNA and peptide levels (p < 0.001). There was no stimulation of collagen synthesis by testosterone

http://****morphosis.com/articles/ha...-synthesis.htm

Our results underline a significant reduction of the clinical scores in response to Stanozolol therapy. Stanozolol is a synthetic androgen derived from testosterone; however stanozolol shows a higher affinity for the glucocorticoid receptors than for those of the androgens. The glucocorticoid receptor block is carried out for low Stanozolol doses and it reduces the tissue catabolic activity. In vitro studies show a clear positive effect of Stanozolol on collagen synthesis in fibroblastic cell cultures: this action is mediated by an increase in the synthesis of the cytokine TGFß-1. In particular, TGFß-1 is involved in the proliferation of chondrocytes and in the deposition of extracellular matrix. We may hypothesize that the benefic action of Stanozolol in the CT therapy is induced by an increase in TGFß-1 synthesis by tracheal chondrocytes and fibroblasts.

[kynetguy]

damn, your pretty smart there arent ya? for sure wasnt talking to you..but your smart so u had to comment..i'm sure 189 knows his shyt and my comments were question like not against anything he says..after all i know i dont know shyt about ass..i comment to learn not to act like i know and that based on what i read..i know what i have learned here and thats still a nothing close to what a lot of people know..so u dont gotta jump out like a lil squirl and act all smart kid...

That was the most difficult to read blob of letters I have seen on here to date.

Actually I can show you many cases where he is wrong or not 100% accurate. But I have only been in this game 20 years. . . what do I know? Huh KID?

I had actually written several paragraphs, but edited and deleted them because 189 addressed it well enough. I replied before I read his post, if you must know. If you read your post again you said: "I was wondering about 189's comments..." That is a statement that addresses the general audiance. Had you wanted to only hear from him it should have been: "189, I was wondering about your comments...."

It is not my fault your grammer and skills in spelling and the English laguage in general suck. Next time, do the research yourself or start your own thread if you don't want others to help you. OK, Kiddo?

[john1181]

lol ok, firt of all i dont give a fcuk what smart asses know...so, 189 answered the question before you came out with your smart comment on how he fixed me up acting like i was going against his comments..understand buddy? now when i said i wasnt talking to you i was obviously not trying to get a smart ass answer or comment from people like you.. no matter who was to answer the question didnt matter..i'm sure its not just 189 who knows his shit here..so go grab a beer or something gramps and watch some tv you dont have to act smart or hard on the web! i dont know you...you dont know me...no one cares and i'm pretty sure you can be mature enough to just get cut the crap and just be..o and if calling you a kid insulted you than i take it back...

kiddo

[john1181]

"It is not my fault your grammer and skills in spelling and the English laguage in general suck."

very well said!!! wow you must be an english major...lol..anyway be good

[T_Own]

woooow just drop it

[one8nine]

Actually I can show you many cases where he is wrong or not 100% accurate.

lets see

[kynetguy]

lets see

lol, I will PM it to you, but it's not worth it in a public thread. There is nothing to gain.

The dickhead above took what I said totally wrong. I read posts in one monitor and reply in another, I went to reply to him and saw that you already had answered him a little further after already typing a post. So for some reason he though I was a smart ass because I didn't answer or what ever. But I truly don't care what he thinks. Nothing against you bro. SOme people are just hyper that way when people try to help them.

[one8nine]

lol, I will PM it to you, but it's not worth it in a public thread. There is nothing to gain.

The dickhead above took what I said totally wrong. I read posts in one monitor and reply in another, I went to reply to him and saw that you already had answered him a little further after already typing a post. So for some reason he though I was a smart ass because I didn't answer or what ever. But I truly don't care what he things. Nothing against you bro. SOme people are just hyper that way when people try to help them.

sweet

[mmabeast]

Sample Diet

Meal 1 options:
Oatmeal and a shake, multivitamin,
Whole-grain pasta spaghetti, multivitamin
Whole-grain pasta chicken Alfredo, multivitamin
Raisin bran with skim milk and a shake, multivitamin

Meal 2 options:
Shake, Tuna sandwich on whole-wheat bread and mixed vegetables
Shake, Chicken Parmesan and whole-grain pasta and mixed vegetables
Shake, Spaghetti with 95/5 ground beef, or ground turkey and mixed vegetables

Meal 3 options:
Tuna sandwich on whole-wheat bread and mixed vegetables
Chicken Parmesan and whole-grain pasta and mixed vegetables
Spaghetti with 95/5 ground beef, or ground turkey and mixed vegetables

(Optional) Meal 4 options:
Tuna sandwich on whole-wheat bread and mixed vegetables
Chicken Parmesan and whole-grain pasta and mixed vegetables
Spaghetti with 95/5 ground beef, or ground turkey and mixed vegetables

Meal 5 options:
Tuna and mixed vegetables, multivitamins
Chicken Parmesan and mixed vegetables, multivitamins
Turkey and mixed Vegetables, multivitamins

(Optional) Meal 6:
Shake, mixed vegetables

Generally I try to meet the following each day, to maintain variety
1-2 gallons of water
½-1 gallon of skim milk
6 servings of vegetables (2 servings each time they are listed)
4-6 servings of fruit (2 servings in each shake)
2 multivitamins
1 serving of chicken
1 serving of tuna

All ingredients are either whole-wheat, multi-grain, skim milk, baked, grilled or boiled.
There are no fried or breaded foods.
Neither butter nor salt should be added to any meal.
Shakes include: skim milk, two scoops of powder, one egg, two servings of fruit like bananas and berries, and ice cream.

So do you think this diet would work for me as well. I wasnt sure if you were trying to drop weight or gain. Im obviously trying to drop but also know my workouts will burn alot of calories.

I am doing an am run 1 mile.
Tire carry runs
step ups with 150 lb log

work from 9-5

pm work out Resistant/free weight/ mma bag work

pm run 1 mile
Stairs
tire work
sit ups/push ups

So I would be incorporating this into my day. What do you think ?

[one8nine]

So do you think this diet would work for me as well. I wasnt sure if you were trying to drop weight or gain. Im obviously trying to drop but also know my workouts will burn alot of calories.

I am doing an am run 1 mile.
Tire carry runs
step ups with 150 lb log

work from 9-5

pm work out Resistant/free weight/ mma bag work

pm run 1 mile
Stairs
tire work
sit ups/push ups

So I would be incorporating this into my day. What do you think ?

the carb sources are not that great
you should replace the bread/sandwiches/pasta with potatoes lentils etc check out the diet forum

i just dont store fat im so naturally lean im not so strict on myself. at my most piggy sloppy point in life i was 13%

imo the only difference between a bulk and cut is portion sizing

[mmabeast]

This is probly a realllly stupid question. But are these advertised products real. The deca , pa2atari hgh, var. They are all tabs no injectables. But are they real ? WTF. Maybe Im just way behind on the times. Or are these legal alternatives to the real thing ?