I read,after a cycle you should expect to lose 90% of your gains, what's the point?

**951thompson** · 09-29-2012, 03:55 AM

If you lose most of your gains after a cycle, what's the point in using steroids ? Im using them for the first time in the hope of beefing up, had I known im bound to lose most of my gains I don't think I'd of bothered :-/ what's the point?

**rhoads90** · 09-29-2012, 04:02 AM

If you are a dumbass with a poor diet/ stop lifting heavy its true. If your diet is spot on and continue training you will keep most if not all gains.

**951thompson** · 09-29-2012, 04:06 AM

Originally Posted by rhoads90

If you are a dumbass with a poor diet/ stop lifting heavy its true. If your diet is spot on and continue training you will keep most if not all gains.

That's not what some of the vets say on here. They say you are lucky to keep 10%

**rhoads90** · 09-29-2012, 04:06 AM

Originally Posted by 951thompson

That's not what some of the vets say on here. They say you are lucky to keep 10%

lol, who are these "vets"

**Shsm** · 09-29-2012, 04:07 AM

Originally Posted by 951thompson

That's not what some of the vets say on here. They say you are lucky to keep 10%

....

**rhoads90** · 09-29-2012, 04:21 AM

Originally Posted by 951thompson

That's not what some of the vets say on here. They say you are lucky to keep 10%

Do you have common sense? Are you telling me that you believe someone who juiced and gained 20 lbs on a 12 week cycle will only keep 2 lbs after the cycle is over? Do you realize how stupid that is? Anyone could gain more than that natty!, what a joke.

**dec11** · 09-29-2012, 04:31 AM

Originally Posted by rhoads90

Do you have common sense? Are you telling me that you believe someone who juiced and gained 20 lbs on a 12 week cycle will only keep 2 lbs after the cycle is over? Do you realize how stupid that is? Anyone could gain more than that natty!, what a joke.

whats stupid about it?

its actually true. if you think someone can gain 12lbs muscle in 12wks natty then you havent the 1st clue and shouldnt be ridiculing anyones thread.

what age are you? 12?

**Sharmthetics** · 09-29-2012, 04:32 AM

Originally Posted by dec11

whats stupid about it?

its actually true. if you think someone can gain 12lbs muscle in 12wks natty then you havent the 1st clue and shouldnt be ridiculing anyones thread.

what age are you? 12?

I think you misread it man he said two pounds, not twelve.

**rhoads90** · 09-29-2012, 04:33 AM

Originally Posted by dec11

whats stupid about it?

its actually true. if you think someone can gain 12lbs muscle in 12wks natty then you havent the 1st clue and shouldnt be ridiculing anyones thread.

what age are you? 12?

I am talking about the 2lbs kept after the cycle is over according to OP's "vets". Yes, nattys can put on over 2 lbs of muscle in 3 months.

**dec11** · 09-29-2012, 04:36 AM

Originally Posted by rhoads90

I am talking about the 2lbs kept after the cycle is over according to OP's "vets". Yes, nattys can put on over 2 lbs of muscle in 3 months.

what's your stats, age and experience in AAS and training?

**Metalject** · 09-29-2012, 04:22 AM

When it comes to keeping size gains, in my opinion here's a good way to look at it.

1. If you're not at your natural genetic limit in terms of the total amount of muscle mass your body can naturally handle and maintain, if you use gear and continue training with a solid diet after use you should be able to hang onto a substantial amount of the added mass. All of it? Probably not, but a decent portion. Repeat this a time or two and you'll end up a little bigger every time.

2. If you're at your body's natural genetic limit in terms of how much mass it can support, once you discontinue gear you're going to lose a substantial amount of mass once enough time has lapsed. It will not matter how hard you train or how solid your diet is, you will lose a substantial amount of the mass because your body needs the excess hormones to support it.

**Sharmthetics** · 09-29-2012, 04:26 AM

Originally Posted by Metalject

When it comes to keeping size gains, in my opinion here's a good way to look at it.

1. If you're not at your natural genetic limit in terms of the total amount of muscle mass your body can naturally handle and maintain, if you use gear and continue training with a solid diet after use you should be able to hang onto a substantial amount of the added mass. All of it? Probably not, but a decent portion. Repeat this a time or two and you'll end up a little bigger every time.

2. If you're at your body's natural genetic limit in terms of how much mass it can support, once you discontinue gear you're going to lose a substantial amount of mass once enough time has lapsed. It will not matter how hard you train or how solid your diet is, you will lose a substantial amount of the mass because your body needs the excess hormones to support it.

So why would you cycle when at or past your genetic limit? Most people look at their aesthetic best when at their genetic limit and with low body fat. Why risk your health just to go over that genetic limit? Seems rather pointless to me.

**dec11** · 09-29-2012, 04:32 AM

Originally Posted by rhoads90

If you are a dumbass with a poor diet/ stop lifting heavy its true. If your diet is spot on and continue training you will keep most if not all gains.

rubbish

Originally Posted by rhoads90

lol, who are these "vets"

certainly not you anyway

**nusa** · 09-29-2012, 05:01 AM

[QUOTE="dec11"]rubbish
I'v kept 70% of my gains from 2 cycles so its not exactly rubbish

**dec11** · 09-29-2012, 05:23 AM

[QUOTE=nusa;6186532]

Originally Posted by dec11

rubbish
I'v kept 70% of my gains from 2 cycles so its not exactly rubbish

in what way did you measure this? what was your starting weight and current weight? are you at genetic limit?

70% off two cycles, so thats what 35% each one, not an awful lot expressed in that way rather than a single 70% figure

**rhoads90** · 09-29-2012, 04:34 AM

Originally Posted by Sharmthetics

So why would you cycle when at or past your genetic limit? Most people look at their aesthetic best when at their genetic limit and with low body fat. Why risk your health just to go over that genetic limit? Seems rather pointless to me.

This guy speaks the truth.

**lovbyts** · 09-30-2012, 06:47 AM

Originally Posted by Sharmthetics

So why would you cycle when at or past your genetic limit? Most people look at their aesthetic best when at their genetic limit and with low body fat. Why risk your health just to go over that genetic limit? Seems rather pointless to me.

I have a SIMPLE example.
Speed limit is 70 mph most everywhere. Why make cars that go faster than 70 or 80 mph? Why modify your car or bike?????

**DanB** · 09-29-2012, 04:24 AM

^^^^^^^

agreed

i like this guy, you typing what im thinking so saving me the hassle lol

**DanB** · 09-29-2012, 04:37 AM

Originally Posted by Sharmthetics

So why would you cycle when at or past your genetic limit? Most people look at their aesthetic best when at their genetic limit and with low body fat. Why risk your health just to go over that genetic limit? Seems rather pointless to me.

it seems pointless to you but that is a matter of opinion and not much a risk to health provided you know what your doing

**Sharmthetics** · 09-29-2012, 04:42 AM

Originally Posted by DanB

it seems pointless to you but that is a matter of opinion and not much a risk to health provided you know what your doing

Yeah I agree - if you know what you are doing you'll most likely be fine. But my question still stands, why would people want to be over their genetic limit, especially if they aren't competing? Like, what is the point? Wouldn't you rather stay lean, shredded, fit (cardiovascular wise) and aesthetic? I know some people's goals are different, but I was just wondering what is so attractive to people about being over that genetic limit.

**DanB** · 09-29-2012, 04:44 AM

Originally Posted by Sharmthetics

Yeah I agree - if you know what you are doing you'll most likely be fine. But my question still stands, why would people want to be over their genetic limit, especially if they aren't competing? Like, what is the point? Wouldn't you rather stay lean, shredded, fit (cardiovascular wise) and aesthetic? I know some people's goals are different, but I was just wondering what is so attractive to people about being over that genetic limit.

people want to be a big mo fo, for some people it may make life easier due to job/lifestyle

in your eyes they may look better at 220lbs but in their eyes they look better at 250

each to their own

**Bulkn** · 09-29-2012, 05:05 AM

stpete are you on trt?

**stpete** · 09-29-2012, 04:59 AM

There's a lot of factors that come into play here. Age, diet and training being the obvious ones. I know when i first started at 27 years old i kept a good bit of my gains. First three cycles were test only, then i moved on to multiple compounds over the years. And over the years my energy, diet and a thing called life kinda got in the way of me being able to rest accordingly, workout like i was used to, and eat every meal to perfection. And due to this, i sometimes lost everything i had worked so hard for. But if work called for me to work 6-12 hour days for 4-5 months at a time, that will happen.
In a perfect world, we all wish we could eat, train and rest as we see fit but it doesn't always work out like that. So personally, i use to increase my workouts(cause i know it will do that), improve my recovery(as well), and hope that i can continue my training, diet and rest post cycle as needed to keep as much as i can. Knowing that this might be impossible is a risk i'm willing to take.
I'm now 43 and still get quality gains on cycle but yes, it gets harder to hold on to those gains. All you can do is try as hard as you can 24/7 and make the best of it.

That's my take anyway.

**Shsm** · 09-29-2012, 05:02 AM

Originally Posted by stpete

There's a lot of factors that come into play here. Age, diet and training being the obvious ones. I know when i first started at 27 years old i kept a good bit of my gains. First three cycles were test only, then i moved on to multiple compounds over the years. And over the years my energy, diet and a thing called life kinda got in the way of me being able to rest accordingly, workout like i was used to, and eat every meal to perfection. And due to this, i sometimes lost everything i had worked so hard for. But if work called for me to work 6-12 hour days for 4-5 months at a time, that will happen.
In a perfect world, we all wish we could eat, train and rest as we see fit but it doesn't always work out like that. So personally, i use to increase my workouts(cause i know it will do that), improve my recovery(as well), and hope that i can continue my training, diet and rest post cycle as needed to keep as much as i can. Knowing that this might be impossible is a risk i'm willing to take.
I'm now 43 and still get quality gains on cycle but yes, it gets harder to hold on to those gains. All you can do is try as hard as you can 24/7 and make the best of it.

That's my take anyway.

Great post... I can't wait until my 40s

**dec11** · 09-29-2012, 05:27 AM

Originally Posted by stpete

There's a lot of factors that come into play here. Age, diet and training being the obvious ones. I know when i first started at 27 years old i kept a good bit of my gains. First three cycles were test only, then i moved on to multiple compounds over the years. And over the years my energy, diet and a thing called life kinda got in the way of me being able to rest accordingly, workout like i was used to, and eat every meal to perfection. And due to this, i sometimes lost everything i had worked so hard for. But if work called for me to work 6-12 hour days for 4-5 months at a time, that will happen.
In a perfect world, we all wish we could eat, train and rest as we see fit but it doesn't always work out like that. So personally, i use to increase my workouts(cause i know it will do that), improve my recovery(as well), and hope that i can continue my training, diet and rest post cycle as needed to keep as much as i can. Knowing that this might be impossible is a risk i'm willing to take.
I'm now 43 and still get quality gains on cycle but yes, it gets harder to hold on to those gains. All you can do is try as hard as you can 24/7 and make the best of it.

That's my take anyway.

im 37 and agree with you age can be a factor. these claims of keeping 70-90% of gains must be from ppl who were nowhere near natural potential from the start. its only ever internt gains that seem to stay for some strange reason (i dont mean yourself, more some of the wilder claims we see in the forum from time to time)

EVERYONE i know in real life shrinks back down to their starting weight after a cycle

**stpete** · 09-29-2012, 07:51 AM

Originally Posted by Bulkn

stpete are you on trt?

No, i'm not. I do 2 cycles a year. Both consist of a relatively high dose of test. I'm running test only right now.

Originally Posted by dec11

im 37 and agree with you age can be a factor. these claims of keeping 70-90% of gains must be from ppl who were nowhere near natural potential from the start. its only ever internt gains that seem to stay for some strange reason (i dont mean yourself, more some of the wilder claims we see in the forum from time to time)

EVERYONE i know in real life shrinks back down to their starting weight after a cycle

haha..Yeah, i know about some of those gains. Well, not personally, but i've heard of them. And for the most part i agree w/you dec. I didn't get post in your last thread on this issue but since it's brought up again i might as well. And yes, over time people will eventually lose those gains. Now, i also believe that it's up to the individual. A certain about is innevitable, while on the otherhand, i do believe that a person can keep if they're able to eat, train and rest accordingly. But it's hard to do. Hence, why we lose most, if not all gains. I'll never believe someone ran a cycle and now maintain those gains. If so, you must tell me your secret.

**Scabtree** · 09-29-2012, 08:29 AM

Originally Posted by stpete

There's a lot of factors that come into play here. Age, diet and training being the obvious ones. I know when i first started at 27 years old i kept a good bit of my gains. First three cycles were test only, then i moved on to multiple compounds over the years. And over the years my energy, diet and a thing called life kinda got in the way of me being able to rest accordingly, workout like i was used to, and eat every meal to perfection. And due to this, i sometimes lost everything i had worked so hard for. But if work called for me to work 6-12 hour days for 4-5 months at a time, that will happen.
In a perfect world, we all wish we could eat, train and rest as we see fit but it doesn't always work out like that. So personally, i use to increase my workouts(cause i know it will do that), improve my recovery(as well), and hope that i can continue my training, diet and rest post cycle as needed to keep as much as i can. Knowing that this might be impossible is a risk i'm willing to take.
I'm now 43 and still get quality gains on cycle but yes, it gets harder to hold on to those gains. All you can do is try as hard as you can 24/7 and make the best of it.

That's my take anyway.

I agree, great post. Another point is sometimes it is difficult to measure gains, or loss of gains -- it could be strength, mass, fat loss, vascularity etc... For me it seems to be mass is the most difficult to hang on to, but strength seems to stay roughly the same.

**Bulkn** · 09-29-2012, 05:04 AM

Very true once you're past your genetic limit its very hard to hold gains. Im not big and i think i might be there either that or my test levels are f*cked!

Some people get bigger and bigger but its never enough!!

**Sharmthetics** · 09-29-2012, 05:06 AM

Originally Posted by Bulkn

Very true once you're past your genetic limit its very hard to hold gains. Im not big and i think i might be there either that or my test levels are f*cked!

Some people get bigger and bigger but its never enough!!

How does one know when they've reached their genetic limit? If you take into consideration you are doing it naturally. When you stop putting on weight?

**Bulkn** · 09-29-2012, 05:17 AM

Originally Posted by Sharmthetics

How does one know when they've reached their genetic limit? If you take into consideration you are doing it naturally. When you stop putting on weight?

Ive gone from 73kg to 97kg in a bit over 4 years. Inbetween cylcles i have a decent amount of time before i start the next one. As of late i think my weight is actually going down and my lifts arent getting stronger- some are getting weaker! diet is spot on and i hardly ever go out and/or drink. I think i may have reached my limit unless my test levels are screwed. I think ill have to get them checked next week.

**Sharmthetics** · 09-29-2012, 05:21 AM

Originally Posted by Bulkn

Ive gone from 73kg to 97kg in a bit over 4 years. Inbetween cylcles i have a decent amount of time before i start the next one. As of late i think my weight is actually going down and my lifts arent getting stronger- some are getting weaker! diet is spot on and i hardly ever go out and/or drink. I think i may have reached my limit unless my test levels are screwed. I think ill have to get them checked next week.

Yeah true. Well I'm 185CM (just under six foot one) so I'm guessing my genetic limit would be at the very least 85KG? So when you've reached your genetic limit your lifts stay the same and your weight pretty much doesn't move at all? I just want to know when I've hit my peak, because I don't really want to go over my limit.

**gonzo6183** · 09-29-2012, 06:13 AM

Originally Posted by Sharmthetics

Yeah true. Well I'm 185CM (just under six foot one) so I'm guessing my genetic limit would be at the very least 85KG? So when you've reached your genetic limit your lifts stay the same and your weight pretty much doesn't move at all? I just want to know when I've hit my peak, because I don't really want to go over my limit.

At 6'1 your genetic limit is much more likely to be 100KG at a minimum, more likely 105-110kg

At 85kg 6'1 you would be a rake, no where even close to a genetic limit, you could pack on 15kg with good diet, training and rest

**austinite** · 09-29-2012, 05:19 AM

951-just curious, can you reference these posts where "vets" stated you lose 90% of gains? I'd like to give that a read. If anything, they were probably referring to a cycle coupled with a poor diet, training, PCT and Post cycle efforts.

I would still like to see those links, please.

**freddy1418** · 09-29-2012, 05:26 AM

Originally Posted by austinite

951-just curious, can you reference these posts where "vets" stated you lose 90% of gains? I'd like to give that a read. If anything, they were probably referring to a cycle coupled with a poor diet, training, PCT and Post cycle efforts.

I would still like to see those links, please.

Not sure where it is but I read it too... I even commented in it cause I didnt/don't want to bieleve it lol

**austinite** · 09-29-2012, 05:28 AM

Originally Posted by freddy1418

Not sure where it is but I read it too... I even commented in it cause I didnt/don't want to bieleve it lol

Well if you cant back it up then what's the point? It becomes a random opinion.

**DanB** · 09-29-2012, 05:28 AM

Originally Posted by austinite

951-just curious, can you reference these posts where "vets" stated you lose 90% of gains? I'd like to give that a read. If anything, they were probably referring to a cycle coupled with a poor diet, training, PCT and Post cycle efforts.

I would still like to see those links, please.

or cycling when past genetic limit

**austinite** · 09-29-2012, 05:29 AM

Originally Posted by DanB

or cycling when past genetic limit

yep.

**dec11** · 09-29-2012, 05:32 AM

i really would like to know how these guys maintain all those gains when they havent even a 10th of the hormone levels they had whilst on cycle? whats supporting all that gain?

i'd love a clear explanation of this.........

**austinite** · 09-29-2012, 05:35 AM

Originally Posted by dec11

i really would like to know how these guys maintain all those gains when they havent even a 10th of the hormone levels they had whilst on cycle? whats supporting all that gain?

i'd love a clear explanation of this.........

There are very few people who know the answer to this. DanB and I are 2 of them. Just ask DanB, he knows the secret. It's very easy and has to do with birds.

**Sharmthetics** · 09-29-2012, 05:38 AM

Originally Posted by dec11

i really would like to know how these guys maintain all those gains when they havent even a 10th of the hormone levels they had whilst on cycle? whats supporting all that gain?

i'd love a clear explanation of this.........

Why cycle if you lose most of your gains then? What's the point in looking big only for a few weeks or the length of your cycle? Sort of defeats the purpose.