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Thread: Cycling Steroids is pointless

  1. #1
    Swolberham_Lincoln is offline Junior Member
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    Cycling Steroids is pointless

    Before I get a bunch of crap on this. Hear me out. I hear of guys on here all of the time saying, "if you do a proper PCT, and eat properly after cycle, and continue to train hard, you can keep 50-75% of your gains. Let me tell you that this is misleading and utter B.S.

    I have been training Natty since 16 (27 now) I am well versed in weight training. College courses, college major in athletic training, and personal trainer. After hitting my genetic limit at 5'8 around 175lbs (around 10% Body Fat) I decided to do a cycle of test E (500mg/week) for 12 weeks.

    I had amazing gains and went all the way up to 210lbs. benching nearly 400lbs Deadlifting in the 500s and squating in the 400s. After the cycle, I did the standard nolva, clomid PCT and according to BOD POD testing (Ive done these several times over the years) I found that i gained 20lbs of muscle on cycle! I was so excited, I was thinking If i can keep 1/2 of my gains, when i cut down i'll be even more impressive!

    Heres what happened....after 6 weeks of PCT i did my bloods, everything came back great! test levels were at 85% of what it was pre cycle. I continued to lift hard and heavy. During PCT I ate EXACTLY how i did on cycle and when PCT stopped I began to cut SLOWLY (.5lbs a week)

    After 3 months since PCT Ended i scheduled another BOD POD test to see how much muscle i kept! I was expecting to see about 10bs (50% of my gains from Cycle)...Guess WHat happened? I Managed to gain 4lbs of muscle. After another month off I'll Check the BOD POD again to see if i stay here, but I'M guessing i'll lose even more. After 1 more month I would be ready to cycle again because i read all the time Time on+ester clearence+PCT=Time off.

    At this point i'm super mad i cycled in the first place. All that money and health risks that go along with it. To Gain almost 0 Muscle!!!

    Keep in mind i am a effing scientist with my nutrition and training principles. I track my macros and calories EVERY SINGLE DAY to a TEE.

    I was so excited to start cycling because after hitting my genetic limit for nearly 3 years, I was so excited to start to progress again.. But let me tell you gaining and then losing it all is not progress. I was looking to compete this year but wanted more muscle on my frame but it seems unless i Blast n Cruise its not going to happen.

    anyone care to chime in?

  2. #2
    Brian Earl Spilner is offline New Member
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    I am actually at a similar point to where you were before the cycle. I started lifting at 13 years old. I'm 31 now and believe I have hit my genetic maximum. I'm 5'8, 170 lbs at about 10% body fat right now. I have been between 155 and 175 at varying levels of body fat for the past 4 years. I am considering a cycle since I'm sick of not making progress. My concern is that once I start, I will have to continue indefinitely or I will just return to where I am now. I'm interested to hear responses.

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    I have to agree that for "most" people you will be lucky to keep 25% of what you gained while on cycle. It takes so much to just maintain when your close to your genetic limit that the least little distraction can set you back to even less being kept. As an example I'm short at 5'7" and back in 1993 at age 32 after years of relatively consistent training I weighed about 185. In 1993 I went on TRT and with multiple cycles I've gained to a weight of 235. There is no way for me to have continued to gain as I have without my TRT dose. There may be a few out there that have been able to gain and keep most of their gains between cycles but I don't think there are many individuals who have been able to accomplish it by going back to their natural test levels.
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    WrongRoute is offline New Member
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    Only thing I could think of is you should have continued eating above maintenance for a few months after pct. Even if your test levels were near baseline, there's alot of regulating your body has left to do. If anything, I would have increase nutrition intake. Did you supplement with anything after pct?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swolberham_Lincoln View Post
    Before I get a bunch of crap on this. Hear me out. I hear of guys on here all of the time saying, "if you do a proper PCT, and eat properly after cycle, and continue to train hard, you can keep 50-75% of your gains. Let me tell you that this is misleading and utter B.S.

    I have been training Natty since 16 (27 now) I am well versed in weight training. College courses, college major in athletic training, and personal trainer. After hitting my genetic limit at 5'8 around 175lbs (around 10% Body Fat) I decided to do a cycle of test E (500mg/week) for 12 weeks.

    I had amazing gains and went all the way up to 210lbs. benching nearly 400lbs Deadlifting in the 500s and squating in the 400s. After the cycle, I did the standard nolva, clomid PCT and according to BOD POD testing (Ive done these several times over the years) I found that i gained 20lbs of muscle on cycle! I was so excited, I was thinking If i can keep 1/2 of my gains, when i cut down i'll be even more impressive!

    Heres what happened....after 6 weeks of PCT i did my bloods, everything came back great! test levels were at 85% of what it was pre cycle. I continued to lift hard and heavy. During PCT I ate EXACTLY how i did on cycle and when PCT stopped I began to cut SLOWLY (.5lbs a week)

    After 3 months since PCT Ended i scheduled another BOD POD test to see how much muscle i kept! I was expecting to see about 10bs (50% of my gains from Cycle)...Guess WHat happened? I Managed to gain 4lbs of muscle. After another month off I'll Check the BOD POD again to see if i stay here, but I'M guessing i'll lose even more. After 1 more month I would be ready to cycle again because i read all the time Time on+ester clearence+PCT=Time off.

    At this point i'm super mad i cycled in the first place. All that money and health risks that go along with it. To Gain almost 0 Muscle!!!

    Keep in mind i am a effing scientist with my nutrition and training principles. I track my macros and calories EVERY SINGLE DAY to a TEE.

    I was so excited to start cycling because after hitting my genetic limit for nearly 3 years, I was so excited to start to progress again.. But let me tell you gaining and then losing it all is not progress. I was looking to compete this year but wanted more muscle on my frame but it seems unless i Blast n Cruise its not going to happen.

    anyone care to chime in?
    First of all your right for the most part it's very hard to keep cycle gains long term..keeping a large chunk of muscle requires not only the nutrition but the hormone levels and strength in training to maintain..
    Most over time go the trt route with blast here and there to maintain that extra muscle..if your not to the age of diminishing natural hormones or a pro bodybuilder I don't suggest that EVER!!natural hormones are the best!!i recently went off trt for some years..forced,but still off..my libido and body felt great ..was I as strong as I was with the trt, no and I wasn't as big because my natural hormones are not what they once were..I was healthy and felt good though..natural homeostasis is better than any trt imo..so you really gotta weigh your options..is the extra muscle worth it?is it worth being on trt forever?what about when your old and it starts becoming hard on your body to run heavy cycles?i try to balance my love of bodybuilding and strength training with long term health and happiness..that's all you can do

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    tempest818 is offline Associate Member
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    For someone who's hit their peak AND had declining test levels, this makes sense but what if you're about to run your first cycle and are not near a genetic peak? You just lose everything once you come off? I don't mean to hijack the thread but say you're doing a recomp. I drop 5 lbs of fat and increase my LBM, what happens once I'm off?

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    To each his own. If I wasn't on trt, I would have never cycled. However, being on trt does have its benefits in the gym. Any progress made is more easily attained and kept when you implement a blast/cruise protocol. If you're happy natural I would stay that way. Once you have to decide on trt, then you will understand what I'm trying to say. When my test was low, my body began to lag inn many parts physically and mentally. Once I choose to go the hormone replacement route, it was one of my better decisions. Even when I was natural, I had peaks and valleys. It was hard to maintain because life would get in the way. It still does, but I do have that "cushion" to where I know I can fudge from time to time. If I get really busy with work, for instance, I might only get to the gym one or 2 days a week for a few months. While I don't look rock hard and ripped, it doesn't take anytime to bounce right back. The important thing is to try to stay in the gym to some degree because I'm sure you already know how hard it can be to get back in once you've been out completely for a while.

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    My personal take on this is yes gains can be retained. But in my opinion the amount of gains maintained after a cycle is very individualistic. I feel it depends on how strict one stays with there training, diet and there personal genetics. Now with that said, I feel the best one can expect to maintain without regularly cycling is about 50%
    OP where I think you could of improved your chances is by not cutting immediately after a cycle. By going into a calorie deficit (even a small one like you did) You did not allow your body anytime to get use to maintaining your new mass and establish a new set point.
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  11. #11
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    Yep usually just one stomach virus away from loosing most of it
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swolberham_Lincoln View Post
    Before I get a bunch of crap on this. Hear me out. I hear of guys on here all of the time saying, "if you do a proper PCT, and eat properly after cycle, and continue to train hard, you can keep 50-75% of your gains. Let me tell you that this is misleading and utter B.S.

    I have been training Natty since 16 (27 now) I am well versed in weight training. College courses, college major in athletic training, and personal trainer. After hitting my genetic limit at 5'8 around 175lbs (around 10% Body Fat) I decided to do a cycle of test E (500mg/week) for 12 weeks.

    I had amazing gains and went all the way up to 210lbs. benching nearly 400lbs Deadlifting in the 500s and squating in the 400s. After the cycle, I did the standard nolva, clomid PCT and according to BOD POD testing (Ive done these several times over the years) I found that i gained 20lbs of muscle on cycle! I was so excited, I was thinking If i can keep 1/2 of my gains, when i cut down i'll be even more impressive!

    Heres what happened....after 6 weeks of PCT i did my bloods, everything came back great! test levels were at 85% of what it was pre cycle. I continued to lift hard and heavy. During PCT I ate EXACTLY how i did on cycle and when PCT stopped I began to cut SLOWLY (.5lbs a week)

    After 3 months since PCT Ended i scheduled another BOD POD test to see how much muscle i kept! I was expecting to see about 10bs (50% of my gains from Cycle)...Guess WHat happened? I Managed to gain 4lbs of muscle. After another month off I'll Check the BOD POD again to see if i stay here, but I'M guessing i'll lose even more. After 1 more month I would be ready to cycle again because i read all the time Time on+ester clearence+PCT=Time off.

    At this point i'm super mad i cycled in the first place. All that money and health risks that go along with it. To Gain almost 0 Muscle!!!

    Keep in mind i am a effing scientist with my nutrition and training principles. I track my macros and calories EVERY SINGLE DAY to a TEE.

    I was so excited to start cycling because after hitting my genetic limit for nearly 3 years, I was so excited to start to progress again.. But let me tell you gaining and then losing it all is not progress. I was looking to compete this year but wanted more muscle on my frame but it seems unless i Blast n Cruise its not going to happen.

    anyone care to chime in?
    So how come 95% of the gymrats swear to cycling and many of them look way better beetween the cycles than they gen limits?

    Just follow the 5-6 basic rules and it will work for u also.

  13. #13
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    I think the main issue is that most people don't understand how cortisol works. When your take AAS cortisol is suppressed and gycorgen retention also increases depending what steroids your on this can also be happen with nitrogen and minerals as well. When you come off and cortisol levels rebound which then causes catabolism and your also loose water from inside the muscle (so muscle size) from decreased gycorgen retention. To off set cortisol high protein intake along with bcaa's help reduce rise in cortisol (as well as few other things). There isn't much you can do about the loss of gycorgen retention except maybe using creatine during pct with and in increased carbohydrate intake.
    cousinmuscles likes this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swolberham_Lincoln View Post
    Before I get a bunch of crap on this. Hear me out. I hear of guys on here all of the time saying, "if you do a proper PCT, and eat properly after cycle, and continue to train hard, you can keep 50-75% of your gains. Let me tell you that this is misleading and utter B.S.

    I have been training Natty since 16 (27 now) I am well versed in weight training. College courses, college major in athletic training, and personal trainer. After hitting my genetic limit at 5'8 around 175lbs (around 10% Body Fat) I decided to do a cycle of test E (500mg/week) for 12 weeks.

    I had amazing gains and went all the way up to 210lbs. You gained 35lbs in 12 weeks??? Did you use an AI? At best 12lbs of muscle, the rest is fat and water. benching nearly 400lbs Deadlifting in the 500s and squating in the 400s. After the cycle, I did the standard nolva, clomid PCT and according to BOD POD testing (Ive done these several times over the years) I found that i gained 20lbs of muscle on cycle! I was so excited, I was thinking If i can keep 1/2 of my gains, when i cut down i'll be even more impressive!

    Heres what happened....after 6 weeks of PCT i did my bloods, everything came back great! test levels were at 85% of what it was pre cycle. If your test levels were lower right after PCT then your PCT was too weak. You still have PCT meds in your system. You should take blood work 6-8 weeks after PCT. I continued to lift hard and heavy. During PCT I ate EXACTLY how i did on cycle and when PCT stopped I began to cut SLOWLY (.5lbs a week) Never cut during or immediately after PCT. You are trying to regain your natural levels and stressing your body with a deficit is not the way to go.

    After 3 months since PCT Ended i scheduled another BOD POD test to see how much muscle i kept! I was expecting to see about 10bs (50% of my gains from Cycle)...Guess WHat happened? I Managed to gain 4lbs of muscle. After another month off I'll Check the BOD POD again to see if i stay here, but I'M guessing i'll lose even more. After 1 more month I would be ready to cycle again because i read all the time Time on+ester clearence+PCT=Time off.

    At this point i'm super mad i cycled in the first place. All that money and health risks that go along with it. To Gain almost 0 Muscle!!! So you did many things wrong and you still gained 4lbs of muscle. Sounds like an impressive gain to me for a badly run cycle.

    Keep in mind i am a effing scientist with my nutrition and training principles. I track my macros and calories EVERY SINGLE DAY to a TEE.

    I was so excited to start cycling because after hitting my genetic limit for nearly 3 years, I was so excited to start to progress again.. But let me tell you gaining and then losing it all is not progress. I was looking to compete this year but wanted more muscle on my frame but it seems unless i Blast n Cruise its not going to happen.

    anyone care to chime in?
    See above in red...

  15. #15
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    Should sticky this for every teen that comes here asking about a cycle. But yes op you're totally right everyone loses what they gained eventually unless you're on trt like most guys on this board are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swolberham_Lincoln View Post
    Before I get a bunch of crap on this. Hear me out. I hear of guys on here all of the time saying, "if you do a proper PCT, and eat properly after cycle, and continue to train hard, you can keep 50-75% of your gains. Let me tell you that this is misleading and utter B.S.

    I have been training Natty since 16 (27 now) I am well versed in weight training. College courses, college major in athletic training, and personal trainer. After hitting my genetic limit at 5'8 around 175lbs (around 10% Body Fat) I decided to do a cycle of test E (500mg/week) for 12 weeks.

    I had amazing gains and went all the way up to 210lbs. benching nearly 400lbs Deadlifting in the 500s and squating in the 400s. After the cycle, I did the standard nolva, clomid PCT and according to BOD POD testing (Ive done these several times over the years) I found that i gained 20lbs of muscle on cycle! I was so excited, I was thinking If i can keep 1/2 of my gains, when i cut down i'll be even more impressive!

    Heres what happened....after 6 weeks of PCT i did my bloods, everything came back great! test levels were at 85% of what it was pre cycle. I continued to lift hard and heavy. During PCT I ate EXACTLY how i did on cycle and when PCT stopped I began to cut SLOWLY (.5lbs a week)

    After 3 months since PCT Ended i scheduled another BOD POD test to see how much muscle i kept! I was expecting to see about 10bs (50% of my gains from Cycle)...Guess WHat happened? I Managed to gain 4lbs of muscle. After another month off I'll Check the BOD POD again to see if i stay here, but I'M guessing i'll lose even more. After 1 more month I would be ready to cycle again because i read all the time Time on+ester clearence+PCT=Time off.

    At this point i'm super mad i cycled in the first place. All that money and health risks that go along with it. To Gain almost 0 Muscle!!!

    Keep in mind i am a effing scientist with my nutrition and training principles. I track my macros and calories EVERY SINGLE DAY to a TEE.

    I was so excited to start cycling because after hitting my genetic limit for nearly 3 years, I was so excited to start to progress again.. But let me tell you gaining and then losing it all is not progress. I was looking to compete this year but wanted more muscle on my frame but it seems unless i Blast n Cruise its not going to happen.

    anyone care to chime in?
    I think the best cycle one can run is food. If you can be lean, muscular, and strong without AAS, more power to you. I mean it. Cycling AAS has consequences. If you can stay natty and be satisfied, you are way ahead of the game. For me personally, AAS cycles helps to improve my quality of life since my body decided to quit Test production on me. I still believe in "less is best" philosophy. Take the minimum amount of AAS to reach the quality of life we desire.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus G View Post
    I think the main issue is that most people don't understand how cortisol works. When your take AAS cortisol is suppressed and gycorgen retention also increases depending what steroids your on this can also be happen with nitrogen and minerals as well. When you come off and cortisol levels rebound which then causes catabolism and your also loose water from inside the muscle (so muscle size) from decreased gycorgen retention. To off set cortisol high protein intake along with bcaa's help reduce rise in cortisol (as well as few other things). There isn't much you can do about the loss of gycorgen retention except maybe using creatine during pct with and in increased carbohydrate intake.
    Isn't there more to this, like CNS activation and many other processes in muscle cells, that makes one stronger ? I should have saved snippets and sources lol.

    Its not that the gains were lost, I think most of the gains are kept. What you get is an opportunity to train with much heavier weights and thus induce growth. Now if you lose a bunch of water and neural efficiency due to not having a compound are not gains lost - you never had them.
    Last edited by cousinmuscles; 05-02-2017 at 10:36 AM.
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    Well son your out look on this is WRONG! And I will explain why.Back in the early 80s I was 5'7 165 when I join the base power lifting team.I had yrs of lifting under my belt and was showed how to use aas.Back then our doses were low and I only ran test and Dbol and within 1 1/2 yrs I was at 225 with a 31" waist I knew nothing about diet only wanted too get big.Well got out of the USMC and drove truck for 20yrs and got up to 275 fat.Then I got hurt and couldn't work so I rode a bike too lose weight.I got down to 211 and you know I was and am still a lot bigger than guys who didn't cycle.And this is the kicker bro we didn't have fancy PCTs back then.So if you are not keeping your gains YOU are doing something wrong and this is from a old chubby guy who got it done with 1/2 of wat you guys run now!
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  19. #19
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    It is difficult to maintain gains, not impossible. It boils down to how much you force feed yourself and lift with everything you have. Dorian yates started out at 170 lbs..
    Its a bitch, to be exceptional you have to diet and train exceptionally in the off time.

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    Humbucker is offline New Member
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    I know I'm the new kid but is it not true some steroids allow a better ability to keep gains than others. I did a search for an anabolic steroid chart and many had an ability to keep gains section.
    Of course you still have to use it or you will loose it.

  21. #21
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    I'm so bored that I actually read this -

    Aight,


    I see both - mE = I stay on year round and look like I am On, all year long

    Guys who cycle - When On, they look like they are on - When they come off, they look like they use - but, currently they are off < most still look big, just lack the "juiced" look


    But, "Most" who use decide to stay on year round(TRT or. . .) eventually
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    There is a price too pay if you want too be big nothing is for free.

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    Quote Originally Posted by < <Samson> > View Post
    I'm so bored that I actually read this -

    Aight,

    I see both - mE = I stay on year round and look like I am On, all year long

    Guys who cycle - When On, they look like they are on - When they come off, they look like they use - but, currently they are off < most still look big, just lack the "juiced" look

    But, "Most" who use decide to stay on year round(TRT or. . .) eventually
    This pretty much covers it............

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    Quote Originally Posted by songdog View Post
    There is a price too pay if you want too be big nothing is for free.
    Truth

    I dedicate a solid part time job's worth of time to this - But, I would not trade this time in for anything else willingly


    So, far I have made a pretty good balance
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swolberham_Lincoln View Post
    Before I get a bunch of crap on this. Hear me out. I hear of guys on here all of the time saying, "if you do a proper PCT, and eat properly after cycle, and continue to train hard, you can keep 50-75% of your gains. Let me tell you that this is misleading and utter B.S.

    I have been training Natty since 16 (27 now) I am well versed in weight training. College courses, college major in athletic training, and personal trainer. After hitting my genetic limit at 5'8 around 175lbs (around 10% Body Fat) I decided to do a cycle of test E (500mg/week) for 12 weeks.

    I had amazing gains and went all the way up to 210lbs. benching nearly 400lbs Deadlifting in the 500s and squating in the 400s. After the cycle, I did the standard nolva, clomid PCT and according to BOD POD testing (Ive done these several times over the years) I found that i gained 20lbs of muscle on cycle! I was so excited, I was thinking If i can keep 1/2 of my gains, when i cut down i'll be even more impressive!

    Heres what happened....after 6 weeks of PCT i did my bloods, everything came back great! test levels were at 85% of what it was pre cycle. I continued to lift hard and heavy. During PCT I ate EXACTLY how i did on cycle and when PCT stopped I began to cut SLOWLY (.5lbs a week)

    After 3 months since PCT Ended i scheduled another BOD POD test to see how much muscle i kept! I was expecting to see about 10bs (50% of my gains from Cycle)...Guess WHat happened? I Managed to gain 4lbs of muscle. After another month off I'll Check the BOD POD again to see if i stay here, but I'M guessing i'll lose even more. After 1 more month I would be ready to cycle again because i read all the time Time on+ester clearence+PCT=Time off.

    At this point i'm super mad i cycled in the first place. All that money and health risks that go along with it. To Gain almost 0 Muscle!!!

    Keep in mind i am a effing scientist with my nutrition and training principles. I track my macros and calories EVERY SINGLE DAY to a TEE.

    I was so excited to start cycling because after hitting my genetic limit for nearly 3 years, I was so excited to start to progress again.. But let me tell you gaining and then losing it all is not progress. I was looking to compete this year but wanted more muscle on my frame but it seems unless i Blast n Cruise its not going to happen.

    anyone care to chime in?
    I am going on trt, to hell with PCT. Time to blast and cruise. I sit here feeling like dog ass on clomid and nolva, with zero sex drive, no apetite and no motivation. Why? To protect my little testicles producing in the low 400's?
    I will spend the pct money on more test and hcg and just hold my levels where I want them.
    Just my random ass thoughts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obspowerstroke View Post
    I am going on trt, to hell with PCT. Time to blast and cruise. I sit here feeling like dog ass on clomid and nolva, with zero sex drive, no apetite and no motivation. Why? To protect my little testicles producing in the low 400's?
    I will spend the pct money on more test and hcg and just hold my levels where I want them.
    Just my random ass thoughts.

    LMFAO!

    My exact thoughts from 4 years ago


    But, it's much more


    I do more trying to compensate for my juicing then the juice itself - from quarterly blood donations to the dozen supplements I take daily


    That reminds me - time for more BW
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    Quote Originally Posted by < <Samson> > View Post
    LMFAO!

    My exact thoughts from 4 years ago


    But, it's much more


    I do more trying to compensate for my juicing then the juice itself - from quarterly blood donations to the dozen supplements I take daily


    That reminds me - time for more BW
    I would rather spend money on looking like seth feroce vs. anything else.
    Serms hate me, its time to get married to this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Obspowerstroke View Post
    I would rather spend money on looking like seth feroce vs. anything else.
    Serms hate me, its time to get married to this.

    Yeah, I'm there - my only concerns are if I am forced to come off completely - I'll fall apart & I know it
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    Quote Originally Posted by < <Samson> > View Post
    Yeah, I'm there - my only concerns are if I am forced to come off completely - I'll fall apart & I know it
    Some of us just got no choice, and I mean those with genuine low T, especially primary.

    We eventually end up stocking years worth of gear, but life can came in the way at any moment.


    I'd take low 400s over the above if functioning normally.
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    Quote Originally Posted by < <Samson> > View Post
    Yeah, I'm there - my only concerns are if I am forced to come off completely - I'll fall apart & I know it
    Yeah I would too, I will try to stay outta prison.
    I will sacrifice a lot of shit to get where I am heading.

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    Where did the OP go? This is getting good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuscleScience View Post
    Where did the OP go? This is getting good.
    I was wondering, what offers the best gains and body composition in the end, "classical" cycling with PCT or year round "cruising" with moderate use of AAS?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bizzarro View Post
    I was wondering, what offers the best gains and body composition in the end, "classical" cycling with PCT or year round "cruising" with moderate use of AAS?
    I would like to hear more on this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Obspowerstroke View Post
    Yeah I would too, I will try to stay outta prison.

    That's 1

    #2 is health related - nothing else - I got this shit covered.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bizzarro View Post
    I was wondering, what offers the best gains and body composition in the end, "classical" cycling with PCT or year round "cruising" with moderate use of AAS?
    I honestly think short cycles are worthless, anything less than 15-20 weeks
    Just yoyos your hormones.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuscleScience View Post
    I honestly think short cycles are worthless, anything less than 15-20 weeks
    Just yoyos your hormones.
    most of my gains are in first 8 weeks. I actually just set my schedule up with npp and test cyp, 8wks on 8wks off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MuscleScience View Post
    I honestly think short cycles are worthless, anything less than 15-20 weeks
    Just yoyos your hormones.
    I'm the opposite, the shorter the cycle the better gains, more maintainable and less sides than longer cycles.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bizzarro View Post

    I was wondering, what offers the best gains and body composition in the end, "classical" cycling with PCT or year round "cruising" with moderate use of AAS?
    I think that year round cruising and moderate aas would give much better gains long term. Your test level never drops that low and the gains are more permanent (as long as the cruise continues). It would be sort of like a pro BB but on a lesser scale. That's the way most upper level PLs and strongman competitors continue to improve.
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcus300 View Post
    I'm the opposite, the shorter the cycle the better gains, more maintainable and less sides than longer cycles.
    You always run short esters right?
    “If you can't explain it to a second grader, you probably don't understand it yourself.” Albert Einstein

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    Cutting in a slight deficit is not taxing on the body....and I started a tiny defecit after the pct. I did use an AI and had no sides. My body fat % was 16% then 3 months after pct it was 15% According to a BOD POD which is pretty darn accurate. so while I thought I was in a slight deficit it was pretty much maintenance. Over 3 month I only dropped 1% body fat. EVERYTHING else was MUSCLE. I did everything by the book. I've been researching on this forum and various other souces for over 3 years before I took the plunge... anyone who says they maintain after cycle I don't buy it... Assuming you take time on=time off. Because my research just told me I gained 4lbs after 3 months AND I still have 1 more month to go before I could cycle b(time on=time off) I can almost guarantee you I'll be 100% back to where I was pre cycle....if I pct and came off for 6-8 weeks after that then I'd be bigger and keep gains. But that isn't healthy according to time on=time off

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