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  1. #1
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    I am 18 years old and I juice

    Hey all, I know I am very young to juice. I realize I have made that mistake. I was wondering if it is ok for an 18 year old to juice only low doses of injectables ONLY? I have deca , test enanthe, and some d-bol here. How about if I stratch off the dbol and just do the shots of 300 mg deca and 500 mg of test enan weekly? Or should I come off cycle and start clomid and wait a little more? I need some advice here, thank you guys very much

  2. #2
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    No it's not OK.

  3. #3
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    uhh ok thanks Mudman, that was an ultimate professional reply u had there. Im sure your superiors will be happy when they see that but anyways thanks for your reply

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    Quote Originally Posted by POWERFUL BEAST
    uhh ok thanks Mudman, that was an ultimate professional reply u had there. Im sure your superiors will be happy when they see that but anyways thanks for your reply
    listen to him, hes here to help you.

  5. #5
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    I don't understand this whole age thing. Fine, I understand that anyone in their teens would be too young to be on ASS but you all have to understand that by not giving good answers will not be helping them. My theory is they are going to do it regardless what we tell them. Why not help them do it the safest way possible so they don't harm themselves ar do anything else that may be stupid. You don't have to agree with it but we should give them the best help possibe.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by gixxer600
    I don't understand this whole age thing. Fine, I understand that anyone in their teens would be too young to be on ASS but you all have to understand that by not giving good answers will not be helping them. My theory is they are going to do it regardless what we tell them. Why not help them do it the safest way possible so they don't harm themselves ar do anything else that may be stupid. You don't have to agree with it but we should give them the best help possibe.
    I like it or not have to agree

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by gixxer600
    I don't understand this whole age thing. Fine, I understand that anyone in their teens would be too young to be on ASS but you all have to understand that by not giving good answers will not be helping them. My theory is they are going to do it regardless what we tell them. Why not help them do it the safest way possible so they don't harm themselves ar do anything else that may be stupid. You don't have to agree with it but we should give them the best help possibe.
    Bro............. There a million and one threads on reasons why not to run gear at a young age. I'm tired of seeing these question. Also there's no safe way to run AS while your groth plates are not done growing. So if you want different answers then go to another board.

    POWERFUL BEAST - I have no superiors here......... I do not get paid to help out on this board, nor do I get anything esle for doing what I do here..... I do it because I want too. I give very good advices bro................. I'm just tired of seeing q's like this.................. Why don't you research for yourself and see why it's not a good idea to juice so early.

  8. #8
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    Mudman gave you an answer powerful beast. Do you want it answered in essay form?

    Mudman is by far one of the most helpful people on here, sorry we get like 5 threads a day like this. "I'm 16 using AS and N02. Can I cycle Andro with DBOL ?" etc.

    It gets tiring. Some of the guys don't even bother answering anymore it's so sad.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calipso
    Mudman gave you an answer powerful beast. Do you want it answered in essay form?

    Mudman is by far one of the most helpful people on here, sorry we get like 5 threads a day like this. "I'm 16 using AS and N02. Can I cycle Andro with DBOL ?" etc.

    It gets tiring. Some of the guys don't even bother answering anymore it's so sad.
    Thanks bro!

  10. #10
    gixxer600 is offline Member
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    TheMudMan- Don't you think suggesting low doses instead of high ones is considered a safer way? I'm trying to cause Sh*t here and I'm sure it gets tiring getting asked the same questions but any of us can read the threads and answer our own questions. I'm sure most of us went through the same thing these young guys are going through. Like I said before they are going to do it regarless.

  11. #11
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    why do you want to take juice man ? your 18 years old lol

    you will lose everything again lol

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by gixxer600
    TheMudMan- Don't you think suggesting low doses instead of high ones is considered a safer way? I'm trying to cause Sh*t here and I'm sure it gets tiring getting asked the same questions but any of us can read the threads and answer our own questions. I'm sure most of us went through the same thing these young guys are going through. Like I said before they are going to do it regarless.
    Did you not read what Mud said?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by gixxer600
    TheMudMan- Don't you think suggesting low doses instead of high ones is considered a safer way? I'm trying to cause Sh*t here and I'm sure it gets tiring getting asked the same questions but any of us can read the threads and answer our own questions. I'm sure most of us went through the same thing these young guys are going through. Like I said before they are going to do it regarless.
    Would you allow your teenage son to do AS while he's still growing? I know I wouldn't.......... There's no safe way around this......... There's no amount I would recommend to a young person............ It's wrong and it's not safe. They may do it regardless like you said but I'm not the one that's going to write a cycle for him and I hope other's would't also.

  14. #14
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    Ok...yes we do see these threads all the time...ok...let me help you 18 year old...do you really think that your nat. growth is done...You prob. one of those freakin' kids that thinks that AS is some magic pill or shot that will make me huge!! BS!! Give me a break...I kicked my ass in the gym for years before going AS because I was at my limits...Go ahead...screw yourself up....Hit the juice....but when you dont get those amazing gains and dont look like Ronnie Coleman after your cycle and you lose it all because of your lack of Diet and training knowledge dont say we didnt worn you!! Ah yeah and have fun when you come off and that 15 lbs you thought you gained is all water and you lose it and then the depression hits ya....your hormones are still all over the place...your young....dont screw it up now...hit the gym and kitchen hard for a few more years...let your nat. test levels start to drop ...then hit the sauce....you will be happy you did...

  15. #15
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    P.B. take your time bro... everyone wants instant results...getting BIG takes years , a little research, and a lot of heart.... take some time to browes through some of these threads, you'd be suprised how much knowlege is in here. BEST OF LUCK

  16. #16
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    I am an 18 year old natural bodybuilder, my friend who is also 18 has been juicing for 2 years now and over powers me in every lift, is so much more developed then me. We have worked out together for over 4 years. I am gonna start a cycle in about 1 month, i feel i am behind and not growing fast enough... I know everyone says not to start til 21 but look at the pros, most of them started very young also. I think if the person that is gonna juice needs to be very very informative about steroids and needs to do many hours of research before starting any kind. They also need to have a meal plan, and training routine. I have a flex mag where they show cutler at age 15 adn then at 17 he is totally on juice in my opinion, prolly 40 pounds heavier in the 17 pic. Just my 2 cent, prolly doesnt mean much to most of u older guys but oh well. Peace

  17. #17
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    damn, guys u have it all wrong and confused. I eat 6 meals of pure healthy stuff a day, over 5,000 cals of goodies. I always train to drop set failures EVERY SET, not just the last set till failure like u guys do. I am 215 lbs. I did this cycle, of 35 mg dbol everday, 500 mg test enan every week, and 300 mg deca every week, and I fuking love the results but I FEAR losing my natural test production for the rest of my life, i fear the test production will be much more slower than a normal person. Can clomid help solve this? I need some fast answers, because I took the roids off today, on hold till i makie my decision..and my decision is entirely based on you guys . How much lower should i run if i should continue? all of the pros DID juice very young, and I want to do the same

  18. #18
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    I'm sorry bro the truth hurts some times, and well you are too young first off and now ur fuct. You went in full bore and now your backing out. We can't really say whether or not you'll mess up ur natural test production, there is a chance u might have, clomid will help to a degree but deca can really shut people down. How long have u been on already? do u have hcg ?

  19. #19
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    I been on cycle 2 and a half weeks allready. 300 mg deca w 500 mg test enan w, and 35 mg dbol ed, i didnt take any dbol or anything today because i am in a nervous wreck state. jay cutler did it at 16, 17 didnt he? how about priest? i dont have any hcg , just 3 packw 50 mg clomid here bro.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMudMan
    Bro............. Also there's no safe way to run AS while your groth plates are not done growing.

    I beg to differ.

    Ive spent the past 2 years of my life developing an ingenius level of knowledge on AAS and the epiphyseal growth plates and the processes of chondrogenesis and osteogenesis and ultimately endochondral bone formation and I can tell you there is a very simple, cheap, effective and safe way to use AAS while still growing and acheive an INCREASE in height throughout the cycle as well as muscle, and still not undergo epiphysis--metaphysis fusion.

    Of course, many people would LOVE to debunk my ideas as they threaten the seemingly only last way for people to discourage young juicers from juicing.

    However bro, you have completely done this cycle ill-informed, and shall now receive the consequences of your immature mind. If you had taken the time to research, you would have uncovered the same thing I uncovered, and would not have so many fears. Also, you shouldnt need to ask these questions, as you should already have the answers to them where you to DO SOME RESEARCH.

    This is why I say its NOT the age of a person that should determine when they can safely juice, its their maturity in mind, and the creator of this thread displays an excellent example of somone who shouldnt be juicing.

  21. #21
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    Stop the cycle completely. 3 weeks after your last shot take clomid at
    300mg day 1
    100mg for ten days
    50mg for ten days.

    I doubt you've been on long enough to hinder your natural test production permemently but please dont jump into things blind like this ever again.

    Quote Originally Posted by POWERFUL BEAST
    I been on cycle 2 and a half weeks allready. 300 mg deca w 500 mg test enan w, and 35 mg dbol ed, i didnt take any dbol or anything today because i am in a nervous wreck state. jay cutler did it at 16, 17 didnt he? how about priest? i dont have any hcg, just 3 packw 50 mg clomid here bro.

  22. #22
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    my opinion on pros taking AS at a young age..
    they the lucky ones with the genetics. i bet there are many others who have started at such a young age and have regretted doing so.

    anyone can give a substantial post regarding pros juicing at a young age? that would be a good ground of consideration for teens that is considering AS.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foxy Sphinx
    I beg to differ.

    Ive spent the past 2 years of my life developing an ingenius level of knowledge on AAS and the epiphyseal growth plates and the processes of chondrogenesis and osteogenesis and ultimately endochondral bone formation and I can tell you there is a very simple, cheap, effective and safe way to use AAS while still growing and acheive an INCREASE in height throughout the cycle as well as muscle, and still not undergo epiphysis--metaphysis fusion.

    Of course, many people would LOVE to debunk my ideas as they threaten the seemingly only last way for people to discourage young juicers from juicing.

    However bro, you have completely done this cycle ill-informed, and shall now receive the consequences of your immature mind. If you had taken the time to research, you would have uncovered the same thing I uncovered, and would not have so many fears. Also, you shouldnt need to ask these questions, as you should already have the answers to them where you to DO SOME RESEARCH.

    This is why I say its NOT the age of a person that should determine when they can safely juice, its their maturity in mind, and the creator of this thread displays an excellent example of somone who shouldnt be juicing.
    Can you guarantee or back your "study"? If all the data is comming from you as the source then I really don't care............................ post data from sources other than yourself bro. What about long term effects on your AS users? Do you have that data as well?
    Last edited by TheMudMan; 11-03-2003 at 07:19 AM.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMudMan
    Can you guarantee or back your "study"? If all the data is comming from you as the source then I really don't care............................ post data from sources other than yourself bro. What about long term effects on your AS users? Do you have that data as well?
    This guy hasn't even used AS mudman. So I take all his "Studies" with a grain of salt.

  25. #25
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    damn...I wish kids like this would listen. IF they plan on using them, at least have the smarts to wait until age and wisdom kick in. Look powerful beast....I am 28, I lifted 10 years off and on. I am proud to say that my gains gave me a nice set of guns, pecs of rock ect. I had the opportunity to grab some gear when I was your age, but I waited. I knew through research, that at 18, my body was kicking test like a madman. YOU have an advantage....use it and wait. these Bros of mine here on this board are here to help. Through patience they have helped me get going in the right direction.

    so in short, wait...when your body hits the wall and you are at the point where everything you do is not working, then look into it..

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foxy Sphinx
    I beg to differ.

    Ive spent the past 2 years of my life developing an ingenius level of knowledge on AAS and the epiphyseal growth plates and the processes of chondrogenesis and osteogenesis and ultimately endochondral bone formation and I can tell you there is a very simple, cheap, effective and safe way to use AAS while still growing and acheive an INCREASE in height throughout the cycle as well as muscle, and still not undergo epiphysis--metaphysis fusion.

    Of course, many people would LOVE to debunk my ideas as they threaten the seemingly only last way for people to discourage young juicers from juicing.

    However bro, you have completely done this cycle ill-informed, and shall now receive the consequences of your immature mind. If you had taken the time to research, you would have uncovered the same thing I uncovered, and would not have so many fears. Also, you shouldnt need to ask these questions, as you should already have the answers to them where you to DO SOME RESEARCH.

    This is why I say its NOT the age of a person that should determine when they can safely juice, its their maturity in mind, and the creator of this thread displays an excellent example of somone who shouldnt be juicing.
    i'm bumping for an explanation of this...i've studied epiphyseal growth plates etc as well and I'd love to hear your explanation of how it's OK. I'm not saying i know everything about them, but i'd know enough to try to understand what you're saying...

    as of yet, i haven't seen anything convincing...

  27. #27
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    OMG, Anyone questioning Mud's importance or how he answers a question on here, OBVIOUSLY hasn't been on the board long enough to know that he is one of the top guys on here. 2nd. THEY ARE NO LOSE dosage cycles that are safe. By low dose, what do you mean? you can do 100mg of Test and the only benefit it would be doing is stopping your own production. I'm getting tired of trying to explain to these young guys to wait. Why don't you spend some research on what has happened to young guys who do AS at a young age. Some of the stories are frightening. You don't want to hear that, You just want us to say it's OK. Why ruin a good thing anyway? Your body is at it's highest producing its own Test. Unless your a VET or Mod at another board, someone who is a newbie (just meaning your new to the board) obviously hasn't spent nearly enough time researching.

  28. #28
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    Get bdtr to tell you his story about taking AS too young. It convinced me to wait a little before I started my first cycle.

  29. #29
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    Yea your body supposedly creates about 70mg of test per week (10 per day) so an additional 100mg of test like buylongterm said would just shut down your natural production, which would be very dumb and a waste.

    Remember your using juice to help add gains instead of just wasting $.

  30. #30
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    exactly my point...10 mg a day!!! More then enought to get great gains!! esp at the age 18..

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by slamd097
    exactly my point...10 mg a day!!! More then enought to get great gains!! esp at the age 18..
    Yea but want to know a counter-statement to the arguement. "Well if I'm only making 70mg a week what harm is another 200-400?"

    You really can't convince some people slamd. They have their minds suck on using gear.

    One or two people tried to stray me from using it but alot of other people figured, I'm 21 in 1 week.........I got a good muscle base, good bulking diet, and I love to workout. My cycle is a small dose but I still wouldn't recommend it for anyone who isn't 100% sure that they are read for the AS game.

  32. #32
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    I recomend seeing a Dr. to anyone that's going to juice under 25, that's a general age. After that I'd think all growth and devolopment would be done. Seeing a Dr should be part of any cycle, to be safe and healthy.

    JohnnyB

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by BIGJOHNSON
    I have a flex mag where they show cutler at age 15 adn then at 17 he is totally on juice in my opinion, prolly 40 pounds heavier in the 17 pic. Just my 2 cent, prolly doesnt mean much to most of u older guys but oh well. Peace
    I've seen the same pics at that age you can gain 40lbs without juicing, you are talking about 2 years not 2 months.

    JohnnyB

  34. #34
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    WEll as id hope you already know CB25, the epiphyseal growth plates undergo 2 processes which result in increased longitudinal growth.

    The first is Chondrogenesis, the formation of cartilage which occurs throughout the layers of the growth plate (germative, proliferative, hypertrophic, calcification) via chondrocytes.

    The second is Osteogenesis, the conversion of that cartilage to bone by the osteo-cells.

    You stop growing as a result of osteogenesis outdoing chondrogenesis resulting in entire calcification of the growth plate.

    You need to research a disease called Gigantism. Its a disease in which supraphysiological height and size is acheived in a growing adolescent, mainly as a result of excess GH exposure, excess GHRH stimulation, or in even rarer cases, a mutation of the aromatase enzyme gene, or the esstrogen receptor-alpha mutation. Estrogen-receptor-alpha is the estrogen receptor in the growth plates thats reponsible to ultimately leading to epiphyseal fusion via the aromatised estrogen from natural testosterone .

    By blocking the aromatase enzyme via an anti-aromatase such as Letrozole or Aromasin , you can recreate the same form of gigantism as that seen in both estrogen receptor alpha mutation and aromatase enzyme gene mutation. Except you can stop it anytime you want, and proceed with it anytime you want, simply by taking or not taking the anti-aromatase agent.

    Most of my research is confined to University publishings and such, so I cant provide a severe amount of data via the internet, but heres some basic stuff.
    http://www.swmed.edu/home_pages/news/estrogen.htm
    http://www.docguide.com/dg.nsf/Print...2564D0006E361C


    Novel treatment of delayed male puberty with aromatase inhibitors.
    Dunkel L, Wickman S.
    University of Helsinki, Hospital for Children and Adolescents, Finland. [email protected]
    BACKGROUND: As the evidence for the role of oestrogens in epiphyseal closure appears unequivocal, we hypothesized that boys with constitutional delay of puberty would attain greater adult height if oestrogen action was suppressed. METHODS: We conducted a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study in which we treated boys with constitutional delay of puberty with testosterone plus placebo or testosterone plus a potent fourth-generation aromatase inhibitor, letrozole. FINDINGS: Letrozole effectively inhibited oestrogen synthesis. The 17beta-oestradiol concentrations increased in the untreated group and in the testosterone/placebo-treated group, but in the testosterone/letrozole-treated group no such increase was observed until letrozole treatment was discontinued. Testosterone concentrations were threefold higher in the testosterone/letrozole-treated group than in the other groups. Within 18 months, bone age had advanced by 1.1 +/- 0.3 years in the untreated group and by 1.7 +/- 0.3 years in the testosterone/placebo-treated group, but only by 0.9 +/- 0.2 years in the testosterone/letrozole-treated group (p = 0.02 between treatment groups). Predicted adult height did not change significantly in the untreated group and in the testosterone/placebo-treated group, whereas in the testosterone/letrozole-treated group the increase was 5.1 +/- 1.2 cm (p = 0.004). CONCLUSIONS: Our findings suggest that, if oestrogen action is inhibited in growing adolescents, adult height will increase. This observation provides a rationale for studies aimed at delaying bone maturation in several growth disorders. Copyright 2002 S. Karger AG, Basel

    Long term treatment with low dose testosterone in constitutional delay of growth and puberty: effect on bone age maturation and pubertal progression.
    Bergada I, Bergada C.
    Hospital de Ninos R. Gutierrez, Division of Endocrinology, Buenos Aires, Argentina.
    We compared the effects of long term low dose treatment with testosterone on pubertal growth and sexual development in boys with constitutional delay of growth and puberty (CDGP). We treated 24 boys with intramuscular monthly injections with low dose testosterone enanthate (33-50 mg) for 20 months, at a chronological age of 14.5 +/- 1.0 years and SDS height of -3.31 and compared their response to a group of 14 control boys. Treated patients showed an earlier and significant increase in height velocity compared to controls, 10.1 vs 4.0 cm/year, while the latter group showed their growth spurt twelve months later. Both groups showed an initial acceleration in bone age without impairment of predicted adult height. During the first 12 months of treatment the increment of testicular volume in the treated patients was slightly slower than controls; however the earlier the puberty, the slower the testicular increment compared to controls. We conclude that treatment of boys with constitutional delay of growth with low dose testosterone is effective in improving their height velocity without impairment of predicted final height. Progression of testicular volume during treatment in some patients is more delayed; however, after treatment it increased normally.

    Oxandrolone therapy in constitutionally delayed growth and puberty. Bio-Technology General Corporation Cooperative Study Group.
    Wilson DM, McCauley E, Brown DR, Dudley R.
    Department of Pediatrics, Stanford University, California, USA.
    BACKGROUND. Male adolescents with constitutional delay of growth and puberty may have significant psychosocial difficulties related to their sexual immaturity and short stature. The purpose of this study was to test the hypothesis that 1 year of oxandrolone therapy would increase growth velocity and thereby improve psychosocial functioning in boys with constitutional delay of growth and pubertal development. METHODS. Forty boys (ages 11 to 14.7 years) with delayed pubertal development and short stature were recruited from the pediatric endocrine clinics of 14 medical centers. The boys were randomized using a block design stratified for age to receive either oxandrolone (0.1 mg/kg daily for 1 year) or an identical-appearing placebo tablet, using a double-masked design. RESULTS. Growth velocity in the oxandrolone-treated boys was significantly greater than in the control boys (9.5 vs 6.8 cm/y). Likewise, the mean height SD score increased 0.41 in the oxandrolone group, whereas it decreased 0.03 in the control group. Those in the oxandrolone group gained 2.4 kg more than those in the placebo group. Mean predicted adult heights did not change in either group. The mean rates of pubertal progression were equivalent in both groups. Self-image (Piers-Harris Self Concept Scale) and social competence (Child Behavior Profile) were normal at baseline in both groups and did not change significantly over the course of the study in either group. No complications of oxandrolone therapy were identified. CONCLUSIONS. This randomized, placebo-controlled trial demonstrates that low-dose oxandrolone can increase both height and weight velocity in boys with delayed puberty safely. Under the conditions of this study, however, the increased growth velocity in the oxandrolone-treated boys was not associated with a greater improvement in psychosocial status compared with the control boys.

    Circulating levels of IGF-1 directly regulate bone growth and density.
    Yakar S, Rosen CJ, Beamer WG, Ackert-Bicknell CL, Wu Y, Liu JL, Ooi GT, Setser J, Frystyk J, Boisclair YR, LeRoith D.
    Section on Cellular and Molecular Physiology, Clinical Endocrinology Branch, National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases, National Institute of Health, Bethesda, Maryland 20892, USA.
    IGF-1 is a growth-promoting polypeptide that is essential for normal growth and development. In serum, the majority of the IGFs exist in a 150-kDa complex including the IGF molecule, IGF binding protein 3 (IGFBP-3), and the acid labile subunit (ALS). This complex prolongs the half-life of serum IGFs and facilitates their endocrine actions. Liver IGF-1-deficient (LID) mice and ALS knockout (ALSKO) mice exhibited relatively normal growth and development, despite having 75% and 65% reductions in serum IGF-1 levels, respectively. Double gene disrupted mice were generated by crossing LID+ALSKO mice. These mice exhibited further reductions in serum IGF-1 levels and a significant reduction in linear growth. The proximal growth plates of the tibiae of LID+ALSKO mice were smaller in total height as well as in the height of the proliferative and hypertrophic zones of chondrocytes. There was also a 10% decrease in bone mineral density and a greater than 35% decrease in periosteal circumference and cortical thickness in these mice. IGF-1 treatment for 4 weeks restored the total height of the proximal growth plate of the tibia. Thus, the double gene disruption LID+ALSKO mouse model demonstrates that a threshold concentration of circulating IGF-1 is necessary for normal bone growth and suggests that IGF-1, IGFBP-3, and ALS play a prominent role in the pathophysiology of osteoporosis.

  35. #35
    Calipso's Avatar
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    That was way too much for me to read.

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    Cycleon is offline AR-Hall of Famer / Retired
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    foxy - my concerns are less due to bone growth and more in the hormonal area, especially that which regulates hair loss, potential genetic issues related to diposition for cancer at later ages - problem is in inducing significant changes to a hormonal system that is in flux could have long term consequences to baseline levels and have effects that are not noticable till 10 years out.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foxy Sphinx
    WEll as id hope you already know CB25, the epiphyseal growth plates undergo 2 processes which result in increased longitudinal growth.

    The first is Chondrogenesis, the formation of cartilage which occurs throughout the layers of the growth plate (germative, proliferative, hypertrophic, calcification) via chondrocytes.

    The second is Osteogenesis, the conversion of that cartilage to bone by the osteo-cells.

    You stop growing as a result of osteogenesis outdoing chondrogenesis resulting in entire calcification of the growth plate.

    You need to research a disease called Gigantism. Its a disease in which supraphysiological height and size is acheived in a growing adolescent, mainly as a result of excess GH exposure, excess GHRH stimulation, or in even rarer cases, a mutation of the aromatase enzyme gene, or the esstrogen receptor-alpha mutation. Estrogen-receptor-alpha is the estrogen receptor in the growth plates thats reponsible to ultimately leading to epiphyseal fusion via the aromatised estrogen from natural testosterone .

    By blocking the aromatase enzyme via an anti-aromatase such as Letrozole or Aromasin , you can recreate the same form of gigantism as that seen in both estrogen receptor alpha mutation and aromatase enzyme gene mutation. Except you can stop it anytime you want, and proceed with it anytime you want, simply by taking or not taking the anti-aromatase agent.

    Most of my research is confined to University publishings and such, so I cant provide a severe amount of data via the internet, but heres some basic stuff.
    http://www.swmed.edu/home_pages/news/estrogen.htm
    http://www.docguide.com/dg.nsf/Print...2564D0006E361C


    Novel treatment of delayed male puberty with aromatase inhibitors.
    Dunkel L, Wickman S.
    University of Helsinki, Hospital for Children and Adolescents, Finland. [email protected]
    BACKGROUND: As the evidence for the role of oestrogens in epiphyseal closure appears unequivocal, we hypothesized that boys with constitutional delay of puberty would attain greater adult height if oestrogen action was suppressed. METHODS: We conducted a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study in which we treated boys with constitutional delay of puberty with testosterone plus placebo or testosterone plus a potent fourth-generation aromatase inhibitor, letrozole. FINDINGS: Letrozole effectively inhibited oestrogen synthesis. The 17beta-oestradiol concentrations increased in the untreated group and in the testosterone/placebo-treated group, but in the testosterone/letrozole-treated group no such increase was observed until letrozole treatment was discontinued. Testosterone concentrations were threefold higher in the testosterone/letrozole-treated group than in the other groups. Within 18 months, bone age had advanced by 1.1 +/- 0.3 years in the untreated group and by 1.7 +/- 0.3 years in the testosterone/placebo-treated group, but only by 0.9 +/- 0.2 years in the testosterone/letrozole-treated group (p = 0.02 between treatment groups). Predicted adult height did not change significantly in the untreated group and in the testosterone/placebo-treated group, whereas in the testosterone/letrozole-treated group the increase was 5.1 +/- 1.2 cm (p = 0.004). CONCLUSIONS: Our findings suggest that, if oestrogen action is inhibited in growing adolescents, adult height will increase. This observation provides a rationale for studies aimed at delaying bone maturation in several growth disorders. Copyright 2002 S. Karger AG, Basel

    Long term treatment with low dose testosterone in constitutional delay of growth and puberty: effect on bone age maturation and pubertal progression.
    Bergada I, Bergada C.
    Hospital de Ninos R. Gutierrez, Division of Endocrinology, Buenos Aires, Argentina.
    We compared the effects of long term low dose treatment with testosterone on pubertal growth and sexual development in boys with constitutional delay of growth and puberty (CDGP). We treated 24 boys with intramuscular monthly injections with low dose testosterone enanthate (33-50 mg) for 20 months, at a chronological age of 14.5 +/- 1.0 years and SDS height of -3.31 and compared their response to a group of 14 control boys. Treated patients showed an earlier and significant increase in height velocity compared to controls, 10.1 vs 4.0 cm/year, while the latter group showed their growth spurt twelve months later. Both groups showed an initial acceleration in bone age without impairment of predicted adult height. During the first 12 months of treatment the increment of testicular volume in the treated patients was slightly slower than controls; however the earlier the puberty, the slower the testicular increment compared to controls. We conclude that treatment of boys with constitutional delay of growth with low dose testosterone is effective in improving their height velocity without impairment of predicted final height. Progression of testicular volume during treatment in some patients is more delayed; however, after treatment it increased normally.

    Oxandrolone therapy in constitutionally delayed growth and puberty. Bio-Technology General Corporation Cooperative Study Group.
    Wilson DM, McCauley E, Brown DR, Dudley R.
    Department of Pediatrics, Stanford University, California, USA.
    BACKGROUND. Male adolescents with constitutional delay of growth and puberty may have significant psychosocial difficulties related to their sexual immaturity and short stature. The purpose of this study was to test the hypothesis that 1 year of oxandrolone therapy would increase growth velocity and thereby improve psychosocial functioning in boys with constitutional delay of growth and pubertal development. METHODS. Forty boys (ages 11 to 14.7 years) with delayed pubertal development and short stature were recruited from the pediatric endocrine clinics of 14 medical centers. The boys were randomized using a block design stratified for age to receive either oxandrolone (0.1 mg/kg daily for 1 year) or an identical-appearing placebo tablet, using a double-masked design. RESULTS. Growth velocity in the oxandrolone-treated boys was significantly greater than in the control boys (9.5 vs 6.8 cm/y). Likewise, the mean height SD score increased 0.41 in the oxandrolone group, whereas it decreased 0.03 in the control group. Those in the oxandrolone group gained 2.4 kg more than those in the placebo group. Mean predicted adult heights did not change in either group. The mean rates of pubertal progression were equivalent in both groups. Self-image (Piers-Harris Self Concept Scale) and social competence (Child Behavior Profile) were normal at baseline in both groups and did not change significantly over the course of the study in either group. No complications of oxandrolone therapy were identified. CONCLUSIONS. This randomized, placebo-controlled trial demonstrates that low-dose oxandrolone can increase both height and weight velocity in boys with delayed puberty safely. Under the conditions of this study, however, the increased growth velocity in the oxandrolone-treated boys was not associated with a greater improvement in psychosocial status compared with the control boys.

    Circulating levels of IGF-1 directly regulate bone growth and density.
    Yakar S, Rosen CJ, Beamer WG, Ackert-Bicknell CL, Wu Y, Liu JL, Ooi GT, Setser J, Frystyk J, Boisclair YR, LeRoith D.
    Section on Cellular and Molecular Physiology, Clinical Endocrinology Branch, National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases, National Institute of Health, Bethesda, Maryland 20892, USA.
    IGF-1 is a growth-promoting polypeptide that is essential for normal growth and development. In serum, the majority of the IGFs exist in a 150-kDa complex including the IGF molecule, IGF binding protein 3 (IGFBP-3), and the acid labile subunit (ALS). This complex prolongs the half-life of serum IGFs and facilitates their endocrine actions. Liver IGF-1-deficient (LID) mice and ALS knockout (ALSKO) mice exhibited relatively normal growth and development, despite having 75% and 65% reductions in serum IGF-1 levels, respectively. Double gene disrupted mice were generated by crossing LID+ALSKO mice. These mice exhibited further reductions in serum IGF-1 levels and a significant reduction in linear growth. The proximal growth plates of the tibiae of LID+ALSKO mice were smaller in total height as well as in the height of the proliferative and hypertrophic zones of chondrocytes. There was also a 10% decrease in bone mineral density and a greater than 35% decrease in periosteal circumference and cortical thickness in these mice. IGF-1 treatment for 4 weeks restored the total height of the proximal growth plate of the tibia. Thus, the double gene disruption LID+ALSKO mouse model demonstrates that a threshold concentration of circulating IGF-1 is necessary for normal bone growth and suggests that IGF-1, IGFBP-3, and ALS play a prominent role in the pathophysiology of osteoporosis.
    So basically, make sure you use an aromatase inhibitor if you are still growing. No estrogen = keep growing? Thats fine and all but it just seems that its still too much of a risk.

    RC

  38. #38
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    Foxy and I have had this discussion before on the anti-e's, if your going to do something like that you better be under a Dr's care. I wouldn't suggest it anyone

    JohnnyB

  39. #39
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    Was Foxy the one that was trying to develop a cycle that would allow him to grow taller? I'm not sure but kind of remember reading something like that......

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMudMan
    Was Foxy the one that was trying to develop a cycle that would allow him to grow taller? I'm not sure but kind of remember reading something like that......
    yes he was

    JohnnyB

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