Opinions - offseason cardio/diet

[C_Bino]

Nark jus delete all those posts imo. And this one.

[*Narkissos*]

I'm offering what success I have had and how I accomplished those success for others to ponder over, thats all....SORRY ABOUT ALL THAT B D!! I didn't mean to be rude, this is your thread, lets get back to helping him out....

~M.A.D.

Not discounting you but: You're a noob.. Your gains are what we refer to as 'noob gains'

You could over-train systematically (typically referred to as 'gungho training') and still gain... that is the point that you are missing.

What you have 'always' done bears little reference to what a long-term trainee (I B D in this instance) would need to do to improve his current lbm/fat ratio.

re: gungho training..and noob gains.

That aside..

B D.

the .75 gr/lb lbm + 'high-carb' approach.. is very effective.

As you noted.. carbs are protein sparing.

The outrageous protein intakes as dogmatised by the supplemented companies (and perpetuated by the message boards) are over-rated.

The 'if i don't eat 400 grams of protein i freak out' stuff i see on threads are plainly examples of brainwashing... and usually stated by sub 150 guys.

Protein intake.. like carb intake i believe should be cycled.. as acclimation comes quickly from eating the same way everyday.

Decreasing protein intake (invoking the 'starvation state'.. ) on the short term causes the body to stave/curtail catabolism temporarily.. Obviously prolonging the 'starvation state' would be counterproductive.. as like overfeeding, the body adapts. The adaptation in this instance is less than favourable.. as the body WILL reduce the metabolically active tissue to reduce overall energy demands.

However, the strategic use of underfeed (with regard to protein intake.. or total kcals.. tho the latter is a totally different discussion alltogether) followed by over feed will result in increased protein synthesis.

There's an interesting theory that i'm playing with.. i will put it into effect shortly.

I read a study that indicated that 14 days overfeed followed by 14 days submaintenance, resulted in a higher net muscle accrual over a month's period.. as compared to a constant state of overfeed

Using fictional numbers to illustrate my point:

constant overfeed resulted in 1 lb of muscle growth (+ 5 lbs fat)
Overfeed/underfeed resulted in 2 lbs muscle growth.. with bodyfat percentage remaining the same.

Constant overfeed resulted in metabolic adaptation.. thus muscle gain halted.. fat storage began.

With overfeed underfeed.. the user gained say 4 lbs during the over feed.. and lost 2 lbs of fat during the underfeed.. for a net accrual of 2 lbs of muscle.. with no bodyfat change

I'd fathom to guess (or hypothesize rather) that the overfeed/underfeed both are 'shocks' to the metabolic system.. both influencing the release of hormonal substrates

overfeed: increased test; insulin ; TSH etc
underfeed: increased gh; .. etc.

Narkissos

[IBdmfkr]

Very interesting.. PM me the studies or links and I'd like to talk more in detail with you when we have more time C.. I get where you're going with it, seems interesting.. you try it and let me know how it goes LMAO... I already went on a limb trying the higher carb approach so I'm not apt to make too many more drastic changes on my off-season as of yet

[Undecided09]

Not discounting you but: You're a noob.. Your gains are what we refer to as 'noob gains'

You could over-train systematically (typically referred to as 'gungho training') and still gain... that is the point that you are missing.

What you have 'always' done bears little reference to what a long-term trainee (I B D in this instance) would need to do to improve his current lbm/fat ratio.

re: gungho training..and noob gains.

I'd agree with that to some extent, more so on the level of noob gains in relation to room for improvement/growth opposed to overtraining...I don't overtrain, but I do concede that when new, you could go in there with relatively no idea of what you are doing, work hard, keep the cals high, and see some serious growth because of the amount of room for improvement, any kind of caloric increase coupled with hard training, despite how efficientt, will spark growth! I agree on that level for sure.. .So my experiences prolly won't help someone like B D, agree for sure, doesn't mean I won't offer my insight though! hahaha, obviously....

~M.A.D.

[*Narkissos*]

Very interesting.. PM me the studies or links and I'd like to talk more in detail with you when we have more time C.. I get where you're going with it, seems interesting.. you try it and let me know how it goes LMAO... I already went on a limb trying the higher carb approach so I'm not apt to make too many more drastic changes on my off-season as of yet

I'd have to do some digging for those.. as it has been a while since i read it. I've rehashed said studies in my personal experiments.

Will let you know how it goes tho.. Will probably implement it around sept 30th (remind me).. that'd mark exactly 6 weeks after my last contest.

So far i'm back up to 200 lbs and gaining... don't wanna interrupt that flow as yet (if aint broke don't fix it )

Bump for more input

Narkissos

[IBdmfkr]

I feel many people overtrain without even knowing it, equating to slower growth and development amongst other things.

People look at me and think I'm crazy when I tell them I train 3times/wk and on occasion twice/wk if I feel I need more time for recovery. Yet I grow and they stay the same month after month.. Must be frustrating for THEM

[Undecided09]

haha, I'll give you that one B D, I can't see you, but if I could, I would have the "your crazy" look on my face, hahaha...

~M.A.D.

[*Narkissos*]

I feel many people overtrain without even knowing it, equating to slower growth and development amongst other things.

Ditto..

Additionally.. i feel most people make training/eating/supplementing too technical.. and they use too much gear to accomodate for dietary shortcomings (and overtraining)

Nark

[spound]

My eyes disagreed with your use of CAPS

Honestly other than that the only thing that sticks out is the PWO cardio which I have tried before and won't do again. I feel directly after a workout your glycogen is low and your body is in a catabolic state, nutrients should be taken immediately. But by doing so it eliminates that window to successfully do cardio, so AM cardio is what I recommend as well Pre-breakfast but BCAA's are taken Precardio if that makes sense.

Good post though Spound, saved me the trouble and we see eye to eye on many things. Btw how's the off-season going!? Updates? Shoot me a PM brother.

Ya know, I used to think a long the same lines as yourself about cardio and not doing it PWO due to catabolism, but I must say, my traininer has me doing it right now, and the results are speaking for themselves. THe gains are coming...slowly, but steadily. Strenght is increasing I am getting damn strong...for myself at least and I am staying lean with no increase in BF%. I feel that catbalosim is over rated in some areas such as You MUST eat first thing when you get up, or RIGHT after a workout. I think people overanalyze a lto of things and this is one of them, just the way nark commented on over complicated supplement protocols. The key with the cardio for me is keeping the intensity LOW (almost ridiculously low) like 120 BPM (heart rate). The main goal here that I use cardio in the offseason for is recovery...I really feel it helps. it even decreases DOMS for me. like you said glycogen is low after a workout as well, so this is more reason that it will help keep of fat...it will dip into fat stores instead of use glycogen..since your levels are low already. HTe intensity will be too low to induce catabolism. These are just my thoughts/reasoning/opinions..nothing more.

Damn, I have been busy lately, so I havent been able to check up here regularly, but it seems you have sparked up quite an interesting debate/conversation I B D...props for that, this is how we all learn new things I will shoot you a PM here tonight or in the next day or so, I have been busy, but I look forward to talking with you directly since we havent really gotten the chance to lately and you have a lot of good info. that I always love to hear.

[spound]

Ditto..

Additionally.. i feel most people make training/eating/supplementing too technical.. and they use too much gear to accomodate for dietary shortcomings (and overtraining)

Nark

I believe the same. Shit, when I use, I dont even use a gram of toal AAS per week. 500g test and 400g deca or EQ is prety much sufficient for jsut about anyone to grow. People always over complicate and overanalyze thigns to an almost rediculous point as well. I have been guilty of this myself in the past, but since i am not so much anymore, the gains have been coming a lot faster...especially when I got my diet in PERFECT order.

I B D- I feel ya about guys thinking you are crazy for training 3 days a week. I do the same and have tons of guys with decent physiques and decent cuts in my gym who all train 5 days a week, with a milion sets and go figure, they are all right at the 200lb mark or under...and they are not short guys. THey have good beach physiques, but their training just does not allow the type of growth they are looking for and they jsut dont understand it. TO me its all about intensity and progression (makign sure you are steradily increasing poundages on all yoru lifts over time)...if you need rest...you need rest...shit I take a week off every 6 wks or so.

[spound]

Not discounting you but: You're a noob.. Your gains are what we refer to as 'noob gains'

You could over-train systematically (typically referred to as 'gungho training') and still gain... that is the point that you are missing.

What you have 'always' done bears little reference to what a long-term trainee (I B D in this instance) would need to do to improve his current lbm/fat ratio.

re: gungho training..and noob gains.

That aside..

B D.

the .75 gr/lb lbm + 'high-carb' approach.. is very effective.

As you noted.. carbs are protein sparing.

The outrageous protein intakes as dogmatised by the supplemented companies (and perpetuated by the message boards) are over-rated.

The 'if i don't eat 400 grams of protein i freak out' stuff i see on threads are plainly examples of brainwashing... and usually stated by sub 150 guys.

Protein intake.. like carb intake i believe should be cycled.. as acclimation comes quickly from eating the same way everyday.

Decreasing protein intake (invoking the 'starvation state'.. ) on the short term causes the body to stave/curtail catabolism temporarily.. Obviously prolonging the 'starvation state' would be counterproductive.. as like overfeeding, the body adapts. The adaptation in this instance is less than favourable.. as the body WILL reduce the metabolically active tissue to reduce overall energy demands.

However, the strategic use of underfeed (with regard to protein intake.. or total kcals.. tho the latter is a totally different discussion alltogether) followed by over feed will result in increased protein synthesis.

There's an interesting theory that i'm playing with.. i will put it into effect shortly.

I read a study that indicated that 14 days overfeed followed by 14 days submaintenance, resulted in a higher net muscle accrual over a month's period.. as compared to a constant state of overfeed

Using fictional numbers to illustrate my point:

constant overfeed resulted in 1 lb of muscle growth (+ 5 lbs fat)
Overfeed/underfeed resulted in 2 lbs muscle growth.. with bodyfat percentage remaining the same.

Constant overfeed resulted in metabolic adaptation.. thus muscle gain halted.. fat storage began.

With overfeed underfeed.. the user gained say 4 lbs during the over feed.. and lost 2 lbs of fat during the underfeed.. for a net accrual of 2 lbs of muscle.. with no bodyfat change

I'd fathom to guess (or hypothesize rather) that the overfeed/underfeed both are 'shocks' to the metabolic system.. both influencing the release of hormonal substrates

overfeed: increased test; insulin ; TSH etc
underfeed: increased gh; .. etc.

Narkissos

Nark- you have raised some very interesting points above that I believe fdeserve to be taken into great consideration. I will keep them in mind as I make changes. RIght now my protein is pretty high, but my gains are coming nicely and conditioning is holding well, so I am not willing to change anything at the moment. I believe lower protein can work as long as the other macros are set up correctly. I will say however that I know many guys who do high protien whos gains are ALWAYS progressing from year to year (10-20 lbs of stage weight every year) this is what I believe to be the important thing.

Then again though, I when you talk abotu progressive underfeed and voer feed, I believe that is what contest prep (underfeed) and offseason (overfeed) are for. ALthoguh, I can see how it may be beneficial to cycle the tow trhought the year b/c we all know how great the gains come after a long period of underfeading (post contest) mayeb this hsould be incorporated during theyear? I know I plan to hit a 4-6 wk diet sometime in the early spring next year if my bodyfat gets above 12 %

[IBdmfkr]

Good discussion and points Spound.. I may go back to doing PWO cardio at a lower intensity (recumbant bike more than likely) to see how it does.. My workouts are so short now it frees up plenty of time for cardio if I chose to do so. Keep you posted on results.
So far with the diet change and training change my results are unbelievable..
Night and day difference from 6months ago.

[Undecided09]

I just can't get over this 3 days a week thing, I guess its a matter of understanding why and beating it into ur brain...I'm gonna consider that kind of a split when i'm done with my show in the 3 and a half weeks, Ill need some of your help though gentlemen....

~M.A.D.

[CSAR]

Great thread I**! Although I'm new to AR, I'd like to throw in my 2 cents.

Back when I was playing uni football, our strength/conditioning coach gave me a diet/training regimen for the offseason. At that time, he was collaborating with the coaches for the US speed skating team (with Dan Jansen & Bonnie Blair), as they were using the athlete's gym facility at the university. It was very similar to what you've posted, i.e., relatively low protein (less than 1g/lb bodyweight) and higher amounts of complex carbs. After a month of following their diet regimen and doing the required football team workouts, my strength/size really began to take off. I was benching 315 for 6 reps and squatting 455 for 10 at 6', 215 lbs, about 11% bf, all natty. The coaches made me switch from training with other DB's to training with the LB's and DL's.

I'm not sure when I jumped on the "more protein is better" bandwagon, but this thread has really opened my eyes. Thinking back to my playing days and the diet I followed vs. trying to eat around 300g protein/day now makes me wonder as to WTF I was thinking.

Anyhow, I also took your diet advice from a different thread and it's been working pretty damn good. Over two weeks, I gained a lb. of bodyweight (up to 193) and I used 120lb dumbells (6 reps) for my incline press vs. the usual 100-105lb dumbells. Mirror-wise, I'm looking fuller and have more energy, while bf% hasn't seem to have changed. So as to your first question, based on past experience and the benefit I gained from your advice, I think the higher carb intake promotes strength, energy, and muscle fullness...then again, wtf do I know?

Diet-wise, you, C-Bino, Nark, Ment, et. al., know far more than I do, so I'll defer to their advice. I especially like Nark's over/under feeding post. Seems good to shock the system once in a while; however, there is a reason why the human body likes homeostasis and frequent shocks to the system aren't always a good thing.

IMO cardio is important regardless. I agree with Nark in that it's gotta be mixed up and cycled around to keep the body guessing and especially to maintain a healthy cardiovascular system. Obviously, in the offseason one would tone it down a little vs. cardio for contest prep, but I think some cardio is better than no cardio, even in the offseason. It would be a dream to be like Ment and eat anything I wanted without the cardio. That'd be nice, but I'm an old white dude. As to your second question, IMO cardio is best on an empty stomach first thing in the morning as glycogen levels are low and the body taps into those fat reserves for energy. I think less volume/intensity during heavy-duty offseason training and vice versa during contest prep is pretty common.

Again though, I'm nowhere in your league (ditto for C-Bino, Nark, Ment, etc.) and I might be spouting noob info for all I know. Anyhow, this is a great thread with outstanding information. It's much appreciated on my end!!

[IBdmfkr]

Good to hear CSAR.. thanks for sharing about the coaches etc.. most of these ppl didn't get to their positions as coaches/trainers for big universities by not knowing their stuff.. You'll get mixed reviews from everyone but thats why threads like this are so good, get to debate/discuss topics which normally aren't brought up.
Instead of seeing the same damn threads day after day we need to make it a point to have better discussion threads here on AR for people to actually learn, if you want to ask a elementary question then just run a search and you'll find 100's of the same question answered time and time again, threads like these (Jay's cardio thread, Bino gyno thread, Bobby(Pinnacle) educational thread etc) are what really open people's eyes to what's myth and fact, what works and what doesn't.

More input is appreciated, so lets keep it comin.

[*Narkissos*]

Then again though, I when you talk abotu progressive underfeed and voer feed, I believe that is what contest prep (underfeed) and offseason (overfeed) are for. ALthoguh, I can see how it may be beneficial to cycle the tow trhought the year b/c we all know how great the gains come after a long period of underfeading (post contest) mayeb this hsould be incorporated during theyear? I know I plan to hit a 4-6 wk diet sometime in the early spring next year if my bodyfat gets above 12 %

Exactly

That's why i haven't started it as yet..Gonna let my rebound gains plateua first.

[Undecided09]

Exactly

That's why i haven't started it as yet..Gonna let my rebound gains plateua first.

That actually makes alot of sense Nark, once your rebound gains stop, shock the system again, and on a more minature level, underfeed for a short period of time, creating some more rebound gains on a smaller scale...I like that idea actually....I'll prolly do the same once my show is over....I'm assuming that my first 2-3 weeks after the contest will be very important in getting back in the gym and bringing those cals up, but bringing em up with quality clean bulking foods so as to build back up with LBM opposed to anything and everything that will get absorbed????

~M.A.D.

[IBdmfkr]

How's this for a rebound lol
Contest weight, 178.5, 2wks out from show before water depletion etc 188.
2wks after show bloated etc 212, BF checked at 7-8%.
Recent, 4wks after show BF checked, 8-9%, weight 216 before bed. Still holding some water but very hard/vascular. Waist measurement is the same as 1yr ago when I was 195, arms/chest/forearms/delts/quads have all significantly improved. 2-3more weeks of (bulking) and then I'll bring calories down a bit and intregrate some cardio to take BF down a couple points and then hit it again.

[spound]

How's this for a rebound lol
Contest weight, 178.5, 2wks out from show before water depletion etc 188.
2wks after show bloated etc 212, BF checked at 7-8%.
Recent, 4wks after show BF checked, 8-9%, weight 216 before bed. Still holding some water but very hard/vascular. Waist measurement is the same as 1yr ago when I was 195, arms/chest/forearms/delts/quads have all significantly improved. 2-3more weeks of (bulking) and then I'll bring calories down a bit and intregrate some cardio to take BF down a couple points and then hit it again.

Nice job bro!!! Sound slike you are gaining nicely. Yea, I weighed in on show day at 207 lbs (9/8/06) and am now sitting at 234 in the morning dry and 242 in the evening b4 bed. I still have veins in my arms and shoulders even when I lift. Abs are still showing completely, jsut blurred to some degree, and I still have decent seperation in my quads...I almost want to do another prep to see what I have gianed LOL

[doittoit]

wow this is an amazing thread. I just wanted to throw out 2 examples for discussion:

1.) Powerlifters- They tend to eat very high fat/carb with protein fairly low. Yes many of them are fat and prolly overeating but u can't deny the musclular gains they make, and that is without a bodybuilder style program. Dave Tate I think had an example on ******** of his diet and I think it was 190g of protein and like 10, 000 cals. Mostly pop tarts lol.

2.) Milos Sarcev- Competed a ridiculous amount of times as a pro, yet he still advanced his physique. He attributes much of his gains to the rebound effect after his shows. This is an example of the underfeeding/overfeeding approach. Maybe not the best example because he's not massive, but thats prolly a gentic thing.

[Undecided09]

In reference to the powerlifer example, I agree that certain lifts are more to one style, powerlift, as opposed to other styles, bbing, but at the same time, dont you have to attribute their diet to how they appear, much moreso than how they are lifting? I mean they both figure into the equation, but the diet much more so??? your guys thoughts on that???

~M.A.D.

[doittoit]

Undecided, what i'am saying is with a bodybuilding program with maybe alittle more isolation work/volume they could even make better gains. I am just reinforcing the argument that u don't need ridiculous amounts of protein to gain size/strength. Adjust the macros, maybe back of the training frequency, and things might improve. Everybody is different, it takes years to discover the tools needed to gain size and condition, and many just never get there! lol

[Undecided09]

I agree with all of that, I was JW....Heres my question though, why can't you go with alot of protein and alot of complex carbs as well???? Wouldn't that be the optimal way of bulking???

~M.A.D.

[IBdmfkr]

Nice job bro!!! Sound slike you are gaining nicely. Yea, I weighed in on show day at 207 lbs (9/8/06) and am now sitting at 234 in the morning dry and 242 in the evening b4 bed. I still have veins in my arms and shoulders even when I lift. Abs are still showing completely, jsut blurred to some degree, and I still have decent seperation in my quads...I almost want to do another prep to see what I have gianed LOL

lol, yes it's very tempting.. I'm actually considering going at this pace for anther few months and then doing a small 6-8wk depletion and then hitting it hard again.. any ideas or opinions on this?
ex: Bulk through January and then deplete until march and then start bulking again for end of 07 comp.

[*Narkissos*]

lol, yes it's very tempting.. I'm actually considering going at this pace for anther few months and then doing a small 6-8wk depletion and then hitting it hard again.. any ideas or opinions on this?
ex: Bulk through January and then deplete until march and then start bulking again for end of 07 comp.

I was thinking about trying this as well.. lol.. how many things can i try?

lmao

[IBdmfkr]

Lemme know and we can try two different approaches and compare results as we go.. Be interesting and motivating if we happen to be on the same time-line.

Gear questions and opinions:
Who has tapered a dosage of test to come off cycle and how does it compare to just ending a higher dosage then immediately starting PCT. Never taped but it makes more sense to as your body would probably recover much easier and quicker. Test Prop in this situation.

[spound]

Lemme know and we can try two different approaches and compare results as we go.. Be interesting and motivating if we happen to be on the same time-line.

Gear questions and opinions:
Who has tapered a dosage of test to come off cycle and how does it compare to just ending a higher dosage then immediately starting PCT. Never taped but it makes more sense to as your body would probably recover much easier and quicker. Test Prop in this situation.

I have...and I recommend it 100% My trainer got me to do this and it really helps IMO. In my opinion, the body is a sensitive thing and you have to be careful not to throw it off balance, therefore, I feel any drug should be tapered, even when starting, then tapered back down when coming off. Well....I don't think tapering AAS in the beginning is good b/c you obviously want to raise levels ASAP, but anything else...taper....that is why we taper calories as well and don't jsut drop your cals by 1500 at the BEGINNING of your prep....your body would compensate by lowering it's metabolic rate. Same with cardio...you will burn muscle if you all of a sudden throw in 2hrs of it per day...but toward the end of the prep you can build up to that level and actually it will be very productive. I believe tapering off is the way to go and I do not believe in the "normal" PCT protocol. I believe all you need is some nolva and aromasin or arimidex (maybe lead by some HCG .)...taper them both down when you come off...otherwise when you stop the nolva you will have estrogen rebound. The only reason peopel say tapring is useless is becuase it has been parroted on the boards for so long...nobody has actually done the research or experimentation to say otherwise.

I was going to mention this to you when I hit you back in your PM I B D, but figured I would post that here, eventhough I dont like to discuss gear a whole lot in the open. I will give you some more of my thoughts when I write you back.

[spound]

lol, yes it's very tempting.. I'm actually considering going at this pace for anther few months and then doing a small 6-8wk depletion and then hitting it hard again.. any ideas or opinions on this?
ex: Bulk through January and then deplete until march and then start bulking again for end of 07 comp.

I hate the word depletion LOL, just say dieting BUt yes, I think this should work well...hell, I dont see any reason why you shouldnt try it out, or why it woudl hurt you.

[IBdmfkr]

eventhough I dont like to discuss gear a whole lot in the open. I will give you some more of my thoughts when I write you back.

Thanks for comments, I also have swayed from anabolic talk/discussion as I don't think it's really all that important for growth and development.. It's merely a supplement in my eyes that should be used sparingly.

[*Narkissos*]

Thanks for comments, I also have swayed from anabolic talk/discussion as I don't think it's really all that important for growth and development.. It's merely a supplement in my eyes that should be used sparingly.

Ditto

[Undecided09]

Heres my question though, why can't you go with alot of protein and alot of complex carbs as well???? Wouldn't that be the optimal way of bulking??? regulated fat as well of course???

~M.A.D.

Bump my question for your the answer to that line of thought???

[doittoit]

Undecided if u can handle that many cals than go for it. Its only gonna help the muscular gains. But this is usually what makes the sport so hard. Most people cannot balance their lives around eating large amounts of good cals for an extended period of time, an extended period being YEARS! Training is easy, it's all diet. If I could physically and mentally handle eating 500g of protein and a shit load of good carbs everyday that would be awesome, but I find it very hard. Not to say I don't try my hardest! But if u are feeling motivated than I say try it out, but don't blame me if u get fat though lol.

[Undecided09]

Undecided if u can handle that many cals than go for it. Its only gonna help the muscular gains. But this is usually what makes the sport so hard. Most people cannot balance their lives around eating large amounts of good cals for an extended period of time, an extended period being YEARS! Training is easy, it's all diet. If I could physically and mentally handle eating 500g of protein and a shit load of good carbs everyday that would be awesome, but I find it very hard. Not to say I don't try my hardest! But if u are feeling motivated than I say try it out, but don't blame me if u get fat though lol.

haha, I literally cant get "fat" if I tried to, well thats prolly a lie, but you know what I mean....I think the idea is to just have a calorice/macro goal, and do your best to meet it, its not always going to happen, but the harder you try, the more you work to stay consistent with it or get close on the daily, the better the gains, coupled with a proper training regimen that is....My goal when bulking is typically, atleast 300 g of P, Double that in Complex Carbs, and about 90-100 g of fat....that usually is about 3500-4000 cals atleast, i believe...math is 300(4)+600(3.25)+90(9)=3960, that is the goal, sometimes its made, sometimes its not...but 3500 is minumum usually....

~M.A.D.

[IBdmfkr]

My macro percentages change daily to hopefully throw my body/metabolism off, I like to do High/med/low carb days even in the off season which seems to work well for growth and keeping BF at a minimum without the use of Cardio as of yet.

[Undecided09]

nice B D, ill have to consider that for my offseason, pics SUNDAY!!!! I know ur excited, three weeks out tomarrow!....

Do you think you could do a high carb/lower protein week? followed by a high protein high carb week? followed by a high protein low carb week? or couple of weeks then switch, or any combination?? would that be beneficial???

~M.A.D.

[IBdmfkr]

Possibly, you'd have to try it for a month or so I think to tell.

[Undecided09]

ok, well i think after this show will be a good time to experiment, soon we will start talking about what I should do in the first two to 3 weeks post contest, to maximize my gains from teh rebound effect

[IBdmfkr]

In Mentzer's book I'm reading currently, in it he states
"Stretching and aerobic activity should never be an integral part of a serious bodybuilders program. While neither stretching nor aerobics are intense forms of activity, both are still exercise and thus use some percentage of the body's resources - resources that would serve better in the recovery and growth processes. Assuming your primary goal is to gain maximum muscle size in the shortest time possible, the performance of any more exercise than the least amount required to stimulate growth is counterproductive in that it uses up physical resources that would have otherwise been utilized in the recovery and growth processes." - Mike Mentzer "The Wisdom of Mike Menzter

Very interesting theory.
Thoughts?

[C_Bino]

In Mentzer's book I'm reading currently, in it he states
"Stretching and aerobic activity should never be an integral part of a serious bodybuilders program. While neither stretching nor aerobics are intense forms of activity, both are still exercise and thus use some percentage of the body's resources - resources that would serve better in the recovery and growth processes. Assuming your primary goal is to gain maximum muscle size in the shortest time possible, the performance of any more exercise than the least amount required to stimulate growth is counterproductive in that it uses up physical resources that would have otherwise been utilized in the recovery and growth processes." - Mike Mentzer "The Wisdom of Mike Menzter

Very interesting theory.
Thoughts?

Fantastic topic brother. I just had this debate with my training partner YESTERDAY if you will believe it. I truly believe strething should be part of ALL bodybuilding routines...BUT I only practice dynamic stretching throughout my workout and leave static holds to PWO which helps keep blood in the muscle and fully stretch it...static would be the same idea as stretching the muscle via massage so I DEFINITELY believe it is benficial PWO before you go home. But I would NEVER do it during...only dynamic like rotating my shoulder around and around etc. This does not put any actualy stress on the muscle fibres but does help loosen you up.

JMO of course, but its worked well thus far.

[Undecided09]

In Mentzer's book I'm reading currently, in it he states
"Stretching and aerobic activity should never be an integral part of a serious bodybuilders program. While neither stretching nor aerobics are intense forms of activity, both are still exercise and thus use some percentage of the body's resources - resources that would serve better in the recovery and growth processes. Assuming your primary goal is to gain maximum muscle size in the shortest time possible, the performance of any more exercise than the least amount required to stimulate growth is counterproductive in that it uses up physical resources that would have otherwise been utilized in the recovery and growth processes." - Mike Mentzer "The Wisdom of Mike Menzter

Very interesting theory.
Thoughts?

I see what he is saying and I like where he is going with the idea that every ounce of energy used is potentially energy that could have been saved for rest, as well as any strain on the muscle is potentially counterproductive to recuperation and growth....However, and unless I'm reading this improperly, what if you didn't adequately stretch your muscles out and got hurt while attempting to "to gain maximum muscle size in the shortest time possible"??? Causing injury, time off, and definately counterproductivity, not to mention minimal muscle growth in that same "short" period of time??? Also, some cardio and other activities like recreational sports help oxygenate the blood and thus better nutrient transport capabilities leading to maximization of muslce growth when attempting to "to gain maximum muscle size in the shortest time possible"....Just questions about his theory? your guys thoughts on that????

~M.A.D.