Opinions - offseason cardio/diet

[marcus300]

In Mentzer's book I'm reading currently, in it he states
"Stretching and aerobic activity should never be an integral part of a serious bodybuilders program. While neither stretching nor aerobics are intense forms of activity, both are still exercise and thus use some percentage of the body's resources - resources that would serve better in the recovery and growth processes. Assuming your primary goal is to gain maximum muscle size in the shortest time possible, the performance of any more exercise than the least amount required to stimulate growth is counterproductive in that it uses up physical resources that would have otherwise been utilized in the recovery and growth processes." - Mike Mentzer "The Wisdom of Mike Menzter

Very interesting theory.
Thoughts?

Now we are getting interesting Mentzer is the man in bodybuilding in my eyes along side Dorian of course!

I am not to sure about the stretching part of that article, i am sure some forms of stretching are very beneficial to BB's, i am still out on this one i will have to read more on that subject before i could make any kind of judgment,

With aerobic exercise is a different matter i do have views and have played around with this in the past, the body adapts to exclusively to aerobic work by becoming efficient in time the body can perform the same level of exercise and burn fewer total calories,

Now the body adapts to weight training differently, the adaptation process is the addition of muscle mass and the greater amount of muscle mass one carries the greater amount of calories burned each day, so the best way of building muscle and burning fat is weight training,

With aerobic exercise it as no effect on building or holding muscle mass infact in many case of muscle tissue is burnt and as soon as muscle mass decreases the metabolic rate changes and slows down thus adapts, weight training alone is the most single thing what can be done to cut bf and speed up metabolic rate,

Ive known bb's who have got into comp state with very little or none aerobic exercise, they kept the metabolism from slowing to a crawl via a diet plan that provides extremely small deficits while eliminating insulin spikes as a result of refined carbs,simple carbs and a lack in fiber, just hard weight training and the right nutrition plan and a hard lean body can be achieved,

With aerobic work more is not better the right amount for the individual is needed, Ive seen bb's use far to much aerobic work on restrictive diet plans and a backfire as occurred lowering hormones that support muscle growth which indirectly slowing the metabolism,

So in ways i can see were mentzer is coming from while building muscle recovery and the growth process is vital so conserve all forms of energy and use a diet plan to keep bf low,

He states "to gain maximum muscle size in the shortest time possible, the performance of any more exercise than the least amount required to stimulate growth is counterproductive in that it uses up physical resources that would have otherwise been utilized in the recovery and growth processes" i like the quote "muscle size in the shortest time possible" that is my whole idea with priming/short cycles and overeating the end result is Mentzer quote,

interesting I**, what are your views? do you think aerobic work is over done or not needed as much as we think?

[IBdmfkr]

Thanks for the responses, I'd like to see even more on this topic before we move too much forward as I have many other topics lined up for discussion, many of them you'll notice are based on Menzter's teachings as I am following his work pretty closely at this point

I'd have to say I am far too inexperienced to really have a view on this topic, but if I were to comment I'd say I have to agree with you Marcus about the body adapting to cardiovascular activity and slowed progression. I've seen numerous BB'ers stay lean in the offseason by simply keeping an extremely high-intensity routine and really just keeping their diet/calories in check and not letting it get out of hand.
This being said it brings me to another thing that boggles my mind. I notice many BB'ers or just guys who train eat a lot of refined sugars and junk in the off-season and really not getting too extremely overweight or putting on a ridiculous amount of BF. Now when I set these guys up on clean lean/bulk or cutting diets they respond almost Instantly! I'm talking you can really see their body change within 4-6wks, sometimes 2wks!!
Now on the other side of the coin, a bodybuilder like myself who never eats sugars and refined carbs, I stay leaner during the year ofcourse but at the same time when I make the same changes to my diet my body seems like it has almost adapted to the clean calories and low insulin release so it doesn't' put it in any shock thus responding much slower to the change.
Not trying to take away from the Mentzer quote but I felt like this tied into what Marcus was saying and has been bugging me lately.

Btw, I haven't done a lick of cardio this offseason but really kept my diet clean and moderately high calories, rotating carbs and staying with a very intense 3day/wk HIT program which uses progressive overload, Rest-Pause, Static holds, and a bit of Max Contractions and I am staying much leaner than expected and seem to be getting denser by the week. My measurements alone made me measure twice a few days ago as I didn't think it was possible for a bodypart to grow that fast over a 2month period..

[svarturer]

im buying mentzers books right now

i b post your HIT program

[*Narkissos*]

This being said it brings me to another thing that boggles my mind. I notice many BB'ers or just guys who train eat a lot of refined sugars and junk in the off-season and really not getting too extremely overweight or putting on a ridiculous amount of BF. Now when I set these guys up on clean lean/bulk or cutting diets they respond almost Instantly! I'm talking you can really see their body change within 4-6wks, sometimes 2wks!!

And right there you've described me.

That's how i am offseason.. That's how i train. And like Marcus noted (re: aerobic adaptation..), while i advocate offseason cardio as a way to remain lean while adding quality muscle.. i don't 'believe' in it. I think a higher volume.. high frequency.. high intensity weight-training routine is all i need offseason to stay lean.. For that matter I did no cardio during the first 4 years of competing.. Pre contest i simply modified my food intake..incresed the intensity of my weight-training sessions.. and posed. No drugs.. no thermos..no cardio. Result? Shredded from head to toe.. minus the depleted/unhealthy look cardio can foster.

Now on the other side of the coin, a bodybuilder like myself who never eats sugars and refined carbs, I stay leaner during the year ofcourse but at the same time when I make the same changes to my diet my body seems like it has almost adapted to the clean calories and low insulin release so it doesn't' put it in any shock thus responding much slower to the change.

Understandably so. The only guide my previous coach would give offseason was: "add some weight.. but always be able to see four abs"

That's it... Doing the same thing year round is a receipe for stagnation.

While i advise athletes to stay lean offseason etc.. it's never something i've consciously tried to do.

Actually i found it has been harder since i've actually 'tried' staying lean.. like now.

Before.. i ate what i'd like. My coach told me to stop seeing food as 'food'..and start relating to it as fuel for tomorrow's workout. Thus instead of denying that annoying cake craving... or substituting for a low-cal replacement (which does nothing for the actual craving).. i'd just eat it.. and i was mentally conditioned to work harder the next day: lift more; do more work in a shorter space of time (re: high intensity)

Not trying to take away from the Mentzer quote but I felt like this tied into what Marcus was saying and has been bugging me lately.

Understood.

Btw, I haven't done a lick of cardio this offseason

I haven't done any either techincally.

I think i'm going back to my high intensity high frequency training.. as i did prior to the boards.

Yes i've made gains dropping volume.. but sacrificed the mature look my muscles once held..and the hardness i attained more easily.

Nark

[xpijeonx]

I was going to mention this to you when I hit you back in your PM I B D, but figured I would post that here, eventhough I dont like to discuss gear a whole lot in the open. I will give you some more of my thoughts when I write you back.

Thanks for comments, I also have swayed from anabolic talk/discussion as I don't think it's really all that important for growth and development.. It's merely a supplement in my eyes that should be used sparingly.

Ditto

I understand the choice and respect whatever decisions each of you make but as all of you are very knowledgeable individuals I personally would like to see opinions on this, potentially dispelling some of the possible hype and myths that get passed around.

Im not saying that the other guys that post frequently in that area dont know what they are talking about, I just personally like to read/hear opinions and fact and love learning. It just seems that the learning curve with body building is coming very slow for me

Awesome thread though! I hope I didnt pull it too far off track becuase I definetely like learning new things that are eye openers.

[IBdmfkr]

What topic would you like to discuss.. I'm not getting what your quotes were pertaining to? If it's anabolics, they really aren't worth discussing as all the research you need is readily available in black + white. Now training and diet on the other hand are deffinently misinterpreted and seems false information is continuously parroted on the boards by members who mostly haven't ever tried any of the methods they speak of. This type of nonsense spreads and before you know it the new guys are reading posts about guys claiming this and giving information on topics they have no idea about. Once this happens these guys pass the information down to guys in the gym or other uneducated noobs and the cycle continues back to unnecessary supplement and drug use.. It's a shame.

[*Narkissos*]

^^^RE: above

Agreed

Narkissos

[spound]

I understand the choice and respect whatever decisions each of you make but as all of you are very knowledgeable individuals I personally would like to see opinions on this, potentially dispelling some of the possible hype and myths that get passed around.

Im not saying that the other guys that post frequently in that area dont know what they are talking about, I just personally like to read/hear opinions and fact and love learning. It just seems that the learning curve with body building is coming very slow for me

Awesome thread though! I hope I didnt pull it too far off track becuase I definetely like learning new things that are eye openers.

I am not flaming you bro, but the simple fact that you posted this leads me to believe you are putting gear way too high on your BB'ing priority list like most everyone else does. It also makes me think you are not as knowledgeable as you should be about nutrition b4 starting gear.
NOW...I could be wrong, but these are my assumptions.

I will give you a BRIEF explanation of my thoughts on AAS in BB'ing. Ok.....gear ain't SH1T unless you have your training and, more importantly, DIET in order. PERIOD. Sure, gear can take you FAR beyond what staying natural will get you to over time (physique wise), but if your diet is not in order, it will actually more than likely put you in a worse state that you were in as a natural. For example....you will gain weight which will more than likely be mostly water which can bring on a whole host of other problems like High blood pressure cholesterol etc..., when you come off, you will lose it all and probably even more than when you started b/c your diet wasn't in order in the first place to maintain, etc etc..... Basically...gear is not rocket science, nor is it as difficult or as important as 99% of the people make it out to be. The whole point is to elevate your hormone levels enough to put you in an anabolic state...therefore, speaking in terms of this....200mg of test will make you grow and probably grow well at first...given your diet is on track. If you know how to adjust your nutrition accordingly, you should be gaining pretty constantly over time (although it will slow to an extent, you will still be gaining) IMO all you need is some test and maybe a low dose of an anabolic such as deca or EQ. THAT"S IT!! You see these guys abusing like crazy thinking more is better blah blah blah, when in all actuality all you need is 400-600mg of test and 200-400mg of an anabolic like deca or EQ. I know many NATIONAL level bodybuilders whos cycles are just that in the offseason...nothing else. Given nutrition is good and CONSISTENT...you will grow. If you are not growing on this, then yoru diet/training is not in check, and even still if it is....just give up b/c if you arent growing off of this, then you will not grow anyways and you have no hope LOL. More is not necessarily better. THe only guys who may need a couple grams are the ones who have been juicing for a LONG time and whos physiques are at an EXTREMELY HIGH level already. Excessive doses may yield a LITTLE bit more gains, but not anything worth it considering you will be spending Wayyyy more money and taking A TON more chances with your health...for what?....an extra 3 lbs of muscle when you already gained 15 lbs already?? Ain't worth it.... If you are already taking 3 grams of gear now as a novice BB'er then what the hell are you supposed to take when you make it to the national level??

Pre-contest cycles get a little more in depth, but for the most part all you need in the offseason is test and an anabolic (test, deca, EQ), if not just test alone.... Pre-contest you may have slghtly higher mg's just to cover all your basis of hardening and vascularity etc.. nothing drastic (test, eq, winny, halo, masterone, tren are common drugs of choice.)

These are just my opinions...nothing more. But they come with EXPERIENCE. With myself and with others. Believe it or not...I took more a 2 yrs ago when I first started gearing than I do now and my gains now are 10 times better...simply because I know my shit when it comes to nutrition now...unlike b4 AND I AM STILL LEARNING!!!. To any of those out there who do not agree with me...this post was not meant to offend....

- spound

[spound]

What topic would you like to discuss.. I'm not getting what your quotes were pertaining to? If it's anabolics, they really aren't worth discussing as all the research you need is readily available in black + white. Now training and diet on the other hand are deffinently misinterpreted and seems false information is continuously parroted on the boards by members who mostly haven't ever tried any of the methods they speak of. This type of nonsense spreads and before you know it the new guys are reading posts about guys claiming this and giving information on topics they have no idea about. Once this happens these guys pass the information down to guys in the gym or other uneducated noobs and the cycle continues back to unnecessary supplement and drug use.. It's a shame.

I agree 100%...it is quite sad actually. I fell victim to it at first as well as a few friends of mine...it sucks. Now I have a couple firends with low test levels in their early twenties who struggle with dismorphia and have trouble putting on ANY weight in the gym. I wish I would have known then what I knwo now (about nutrition)

[IBdmfkr]

Agreed, this last cycle I did provided more results than any previous cycle in the past and it was only two compounds at lower dosages as opposed to a past cycle where I used more than a few drugs at rediculous amounts. Live and learn I guess, many will read our responses and yet still make our same mistakes LOL.. Again many also just are born with shit genetics and BB'ing really isn't something they could be successful at with or without the drugs, that's something to keep in mind as well when you self-evaluate, be honest with yourself.

[spound]

Agreed, this last cycle I did provided more results than any previous cycle in the past and it was only two compounds at lower dosages as opposed to a past cycle where I used more than a few drugs at rediculous amounts. Live and learn I guess, many will read our responses and yet still make our same mistakes LOL.. Again many also just are born with shit genetics and BB'ing really isn't something they could be successful at with or without the drugs, that's something to keep in mind as well when you self-evaluate, be honest with yourself.

Another great post that I agree 100% with bro. Well put, and good points...

[xpijeonx]

Sorry my quotes were only to catch readers up to my question that way if they jump aboard here they dont have to go all the way back through the whole thing if they dont want to. I guess sometimes I try too hard, hehe.

I havent done WAY too much gear(2 cycles of average amounts 1 test, 1 test/tren ). Its quite the opposite IMO. Thankfully I havent went and made things complicated. And I would attribute this to what I have read on here and even more so for the future on what I am reading now. I have been raised with more is better and its not really ever the case, haha.

I dont know what category I fall under but I am by no means a competetive bodybuilder. I love to work out and aspire to be a bit bigger and leaner. I also want to enjoy "life" all to often and break diets but oh well. live and learn. So anyway my diet is not in check and I will not do anymore cycles until it it is. I did make gains and kept most of them but I am convinced it could have been better.

Anyways, You answered my questions and I made myself look like an ass, hahaha. I dont really know what to say other than that. Thinking back on it I dont really know what exactly if anything I had in mind but I guess what I was looking for was answered and has been re-answered a thousand times before . AAS are to be used sparingly. And maybe this time it will stick, haha.

Thanks for takin the time guys.

Anyone else please ignore my dumb ass in this thread or delete my posts cause they are not relavant and I dont want to ruin a good thread.

[IBdmfkr]

They are very relevant bro, and I'm sure many ppl have read this thread and wondered what our thoughts on that subject are and why.. Many ppl will still read it and not take it seriously, that's just the way ppl are. Again these are merely our ideas and theories just like others will have different ideas on the same topic.. I try and base my research and experiments off logical ideas and philosophies that provide results rather than just repeating general ideas I've read or heard without first trying to expose them as being false or find flaws.

You brought up good questions that IMO needed to be looked at and discussed.

[xpijeonx]

I think the main reason I asked here is it had the attention and participation of a few people(not that others arent) who seem to be quite knowledgable about bodybuilding as a whole and also do apply logic and "scientific method" to their thoughts, decisions and application. Or always voicing their thoughts and theories. Either way GOOD SH!T!!!

Keep up the good work fellas!

[Columbus]

Another great post that I agree 100% with bro. Well put, and good points...

Brilliant post........I have been on 125mg of cyp every 3 days and 150mg of eq every 3 days....this has been for 5 weeks now. I am coming off a huge cut where I went from 200 to about 150 and 6%......So five weeks ago I was 150 and today I am 169. My abs and cuts are blurred, but at 4200 CLEAN CALS! it's expected.....strength is coming on strong........think Ill keep this approach for another 5 weeks then see where I stand!

[IBdmfkr]

4200 is a bit on the high side and is unnecessary for growth columbus.. you're going to end up putting back on a lot of the fat that you just worked so hard to take off.. I'd start at 3000calories and slowly work your way up over a few weeks time until you see your body start to retain fat.

Many BB'ers feel the need to eat extremely high calories opposed to their light-weight and LBM.. I just don't feel it's necessary to grow. If your maintenance calorie intake per day is say 2700 then why the need for 1500calories over maintenance? You will without a doubt get fat as your body can't utilize all the extra calories. Yes you might gain 1-2lbs/wk but you can't honestly believe its all muscle.. Now if your calories fluctuate around 3000-3400 then you can imagine your weight will come on much slower but your bodyfat will obviously not climb as fast either yet your body is getting plenty of the nutrients it needs for optimal growth.
Comparison:
You at 169lbs say approx 8%BF compared to a BBer that weighs 210lbs at 8% BF yet still grows off of 3400-3700 calories, how is it that the 167lb guy needs more calories to grow than someone that outweighs him by 40lbs of muscle.. Just doesn't add up.
If you continuously gain 1.25lbs of actual LBM per month on the scale you can imagine how frustrated a BBer of todays standards would be, they like to see a weekly fluctuation of the scale, but think 1.25lbs/month = 15lbs of Actual Muscle Per Year! That comes out to around 4.5ounces of muscle per Week! Think about quarter lb of raw steak on the table, now think about 15 - 1lb steaks.. That's a lot of gains over a years time.
Sorry for the length but the point of this is that muscle is gained extremely slowly over a course of time, ppl want to see the scale fluctuate 5lbs/month or more when they don't realize this is near impossible to do without gaining 80% of the weight in fat. Think about it next time you're going super high in calories and seeing the scale gradually change from week to week.

[Columbus]

I understand your thoughts bro........but I've been on this diet of 4200 clean cals for 5 weeks now. I've gained roughly 15lbs and can still see 2 abs in the am...I am getting stronger....you're forgetting I am coming from an almost anerexic state at 150 and 61 bro...I need to be 200+ EASILY....you with me? It's not fat if I keep it clean, train hard, and incorporate a little cardio (20 minute incline walk in the am)........better?

[Hackamaniac]

Bro you could of pm'd him your diet or something..

[IBdmfkr]

lol, this isn't a critique my diet thread.. please edit or erase and PM me if needed.. Trying to keep this thread informative to the general public not specific towards any one individual.

Thanks.

P.S. you're going to get fat from that diet, guaranteed.

[spound]

I understand your thoughts bro........but I've been on this diet of 4200 clean cals for 5 weeks now. I've gained roughly 15lbs and can still see 2 abs in the am...I am getting stronger....you're forgetting I am coming from an almost anerexic state at 150 and 61 bro...I need to be 200+ EASILY....you with me? It's not fat if I keep it clean, train hard, and incorporate a little cardio (20 minute incline walk in the am)........better?

Uhhh yes...IT IS FAT if you started out at 6% BF, but now you can only see the upper two abs!! LOL You don't need that many cals...shit I am close to 240 and am growing on 3800-4400 cals (depending on the day). And I am doing cardio 3 days per week for 30 minutes too. Hey man, do what you wanna do, but don't say we didn't say "I told ya so"

[*Narkissos*]

Ditto... I'm about 205 (5'6").. and am no where near 3000 kcals (not yet at least) and growing...shit i'm getting thicker nearly by the day

[doittoit]

I**mfkr cals can be for sure over done. But i like the peace of mind from eating as big as possible. I also believe that everybody has a rate for muscular growth. Lets say 1lb lean weight a month for example. So even if excess cals are taken in, more/different drugs used, its still hard to get the body to grow faster than your gentics allow. I have to contantly tell myself to slow down and think long term. 1lb a month for 4 years is 50lbs! That is like a novice to a pro! It's being consistant dayin day out, for many years.

[Columbus]

Uhhh yes...IT IS FAT if you started out at 6% BF, but now you can only see the upper two abs!! LOL You don't need that many cals...shit I am close to 240 and am growing on 3800-4400 cals (depending on the day). And I am doing cardio 3 days per week for 30 minutes too. Hey man, do what you wanna do, but don't say we didn't say "I told ya so"

thIS IS A GREAT THREAD AND LET'S keep it that way...final note, cal of my cals is right about 3,900.....I am on the higher end of HRT at 250mg /' week cyp, I train HIIT 5x a week.....my cals are clean, and I have some water retention.....to bulk, one must gain a little blur in definition....no question about it. I was at 220 in college and dwindled down extremely wrong losing a lot of muscle on the way....I am not afraid to admit that. But right now my goals are to be healthy and strong...in order to get back to the 200+ range, I will HAVE to gain some fat. My pants i.e. waste have not gotten much bigger...I have a tighter 6 pack in the morning than 90% of the world.....Abs are overated and come and go. IMHO it's much easier to cut and get diced than it is to bulk up. 1-2lbs a week is my goal bro, thanks for the encouragement. Back to the thread...

[*Narkissos*]

That is like a novice to a pro! It's being consistant dayin day out, for many years.

That's what many fail to realise

In this "I want it all now" culture.. they forget that bodybuilding is a long-term commitment. They want to eat it all now.. and shoot it all now.. and bitch about getting too fat.. or losing a bunch of gains post-cycle mainly attributed to their unneccesary extremes (Yes there are unnecessary extremes..even in this extreme sport we call bodybuilding)

Whereas in other sports, athletes peak in the early 20s and crash at 30..bodybuilders start to come into their own in the mid 30s and onwards. A more mature muscularity taking presidence.. .and kicking the ass of the young puffy musculature.

Moral of the rant? Do enough.. not more... as more doesn't equate to better.

Narkissos

[IBdmfkr]

I understand your thoughts bro........but I've been on this diet of 4200 clean cals for 5 weeks now. I've gained roughly 15lbs and can still see 2 abs in the am...I am getting stronger....you're forgetting I am coming from an almost anerexic state at 150 and 61 bro...I need to be 200+ EASILY....you with me? It's not fat if I keep it clean, train hard, and incorporate a little cardio (20 minute incline walk in the am)........better?

I respectfully disagree with this whole statement.

15lbs in 5wks just isn't physically possible for the average person to put on muscle. You may "need" to be 200 and that's fine, but needing to be a weight and actually being that weight at a respectful BF % are two totally different things, many people lack patience which makes their goal near impossible to reach because they can't simply set long-term goals and realize that a great body takes years of commitment. Again back to what I was saying about 15lbs gained per year, not in one month.

This thread's intention isn't to debate obvious topics so lets get it back on track, I'd like to see more points and ideas brought up for discussion as I like to see other people's perspectives and theories on achieving a better physique.

I**mfkr cals can be for sure over done. But i like the peace of mind from eating as big as possible. I also believe that everybody has a rate for muscular growth. Lets say 1lb lean weight a month for example. So even if excess cals are taken in, more/different drugs used, its still hard to get the body to grow faster than your gentics allow. I have to contantly tell myself to slow down and think long term. 1lb a month for 4 years is 50lbs! That is like a novice to a pro! It's being consistant dayin day out, for many years.

Agreed on many points. I've averaged 8-12lbs for the last 7years.. that took me from 130lbs to 215 where I sit now. That's over 75lbs of actual muscle. Time is the key factor and educating yourself while you're still young and new to the sport..

[doittoit]

Nark thats insane, so low in the cals lol. Dont want to get off topic but could u just list a typical day of what that 3000cls is coming from? Maybe a pm?

BTW I am currently underfeeding/deiting and have been hardly taking in 2000 cals the last week. I have been sick and have had to force myself to eat even that. 3 weeks ago I was eating 5000+ and not gaining (which pisses me OFF)which i had been doing for 3+ months and hardly gained anything but fat. I was highly concerned that i was gonna drop major mass but I forced myself to train EOD and I have maintained my strength, maybe even stronger. BF slight decrease as well. I am also currently unemployed which has saved me because it keeps my cal expenditure very low. I will be very inteested to see the results once I introduce more cals/carbs.

[*Narkissos*]

This thread's intention isn't to debate obvious topics so lets get it back on track, I'd like to see more points and ideas brought up for discussion as I like to see other people's perspectives and theories on achieving a better physique.

I have a couple.. but might i suggest a name change for the thread? As we've exceeded the initial boundaries of the discussion (which was limited solely to offseason diet and cardio)

-----------------
High frequency training.. who believes in it?

Who doesn't?

Why..or why not?

Nark

[IBdmfkr]

When calories are a problem to consume try taking in foods extremely dense in calories, EX: fats are a great source of calories, try taking in Flax oil, olive oil, nuts.. Carb sources easy to eat and dense in calories are fruits. I wouldn't recommend doing this for a long period of time but it beats going deficient and your body turning catabolic to find sources of energy.

I have a couple.. but might i suggest a name change for the thread? As we've exceeded the initial boundaries of the discussion (which was limited solely to offseason diet and cardio)

-----------------
High frequency training.. who believes in it?

Who doesn't?

Why..or why not?

Nark

Yea, I agree.. that'd be a great topic as this one has deff overflowed past what it was originally intended for

thIS IS A GREAT THREAD AND LET'S keep it that way...final note, cal of my cals is right about 3,900.....I am on the higher end of HRT at 250mg /' week cyp, I train HIIT 5x a week.....my cals are clean, and I have some water retention.....to bulk, one must gain a little blur in definition....no question about it. I was at 220 in college and dwindled down extremely wrong losing a lot of muscle on the way....I am not afraid to admit that. But right now my goals are to be healthy and strong...in order to get back to the 200+ range, I will HAVE to gain some fat. My pants i.e. waste have not gotten much bigger...I have a tighter 6 pack in the morning than 90% of the world.....Abs are overated and come and go. IMHO it's much easier to cut and get diced than it is to bulk up. 1-2lbs a week is my goal bro, thanks for the encouragement. Back to the thread...

To touch on a couple points here:
First HIT training isn't effective if being done as frequently as 5times/wk.. The whole point of it is to Raise the Intensity while Lowering the Frequency.
Second, at 1-2lbs/wk you should be a monster in 6months brother.. I wish it was that easy. You may be ready for the next Olympia at that rate.

[doittoit]

I still wanna talk diet damnitt lol......no but seriously i find it extremely intersting on how to manipulate cals so u don't have to contantly stuff yourself.

About High FRequency training i will be trying this for the first time in prolly a few weeks to bring up legs. two leg days a week, one high volume day, one low, than alternate with just one leg day the next week. Hope it helps me , i need it!

[*Narkissos*]

Nark thats insane, so low in the cals lol. Dont want to get off topic but could u just list a typical day of what that 3000cls is coming from? Maybe a pm?

2400 kcals

270 gr carbs
210 gr pro
<>55 gr fat

Maintenance..(yes i'm gaining on 'maintenance'.. as it 'maintenance' as based on my current bodyweight..as opposed to my LBM)

When i restart kcal cycling it'll be:

3000 kcals (600 kcals factored in for 60 minutes anaerobic training).. on training days.. with the above 2400 kcals on non-trainng days

3000 kcals split as:

appr. 335 gr carbs
appr. 265 gr pro
appr. <> 70 gr fat

If aerobic exercise is included (which i doubt it will be.. as i plan on returning to high frequency training from monday).. it will be:

3300 kcals on training days (2400 on non-training days).. split as:

appr. 370 gr carbs
appr. 290 gr pro
appr. 75 gr fat

Narkissos

[IBdmfkr]

Good approach, I still seem to lean towards cycling carbs a bit even on the off season as it seems I can take in more calories consistantly and they're better utilized by my body. We are about the same weight and I've been gaining consistantly and putting on minimal BF off of 3200-3600calories/day.

[*Narkissos*]

Good approach, I still seem to lean towards cycling carbs a bit even on the off season as it seems I can take in more calories consistantly and they're better utilized by my body. We are about the same weight and I've been gaining consistantly and putting on minimal BF off of 3200-3600calories/day.

I prefer to cycle over-all calories

Technically i'm cycling carbs.. but not to the extremes that other go

Since i train 2 on.. 1 off.. 2 off

That's a 2 high; 1 'low'; 2 high; 2 'low' approach

I'm thinking about throwing in a submaintenance level calorie day on the 7th day: changing it to: 2 high; 1 med; 1 high; 1 med; 1 low

Don't think that'd be advisable with the high frequency training.. training everything twice per week

I find that the food intake on an off-day prior to a high intensity day is important. If i go 'low' it affects my energy levels.

That's why even while dieting i don't carb cycle.. I prefer constant energy levels. Personally, this goes against the grain.. but i don't think carb cycling is an 'essential'... furthermore.. it's applicability depends on the 'type' of training approach you take. I think High frequency requires a high/constant caloric/nutrient intake to maintain its effectiveness.

Barring this.. it'll be too taxing on the body's recuperative abilities

Narkissos

[Columbus]

Just a side note bro, I'm 6'2! That plays a huge role and I feel more of a role than weight.......I have a ton to fill out....I was lean at 240-250, but not shredded. There is a big difference. 3500-4000 is not as obscene as you make it. Sure I won't be 6% but staying under 10 with some definition and a six pack is obtainable......keep in mind the first 10-20lbs I gain from 150lbs are lbs my body needs to SURVIVE....do some research on starvation and anerexia nervousa...might do you some good.

[IBdmfkr]

Much of it was water filling up your glycogen stores.. Since none of my clients are anerexic nor do they starve themselves I don't feel the need to research such mental disorders, I'm not a shrink; I'm a trainer/nutrionist. Furthermore I wouldn't take on such a client knowing they have such mental issues as I wouldn't want to deal with someone so phycologically unstable, I'd refer them to a doctor specializing in that field. Anerexia is a disease and has nothing to do with healthy eating and optimum muscle growth, so you can leave that out of this debate.
3500-4000 calories isn't an unbelievable amount no, I didn't say that.. I simply said it isn't "needed" for optimum growth, also I didn't expect you to agree with me brother obviously since you were 250 ripped you should know how to get back there, I wish you luck.

[doittoit]

hmmmmm, interesting Nark....but what do u do if u are hungry? eat over your alloted amounts? Also what made u decide to do this way of diet? U said u used to eat large kcals and not gain bf much, do u think your metabolism has slowed? Also your fats are pretty low, I'm surprised that u can gain stregth/stay full on this diet, but if it works thats all that matters!

[Columbus]

no...I said 250 and lean NOT RIPPED.....let's end it, no use in arguing what works for you isn't going to work for many others.....I train with guys, naturally, who are eating 5000+ and staying below 10%....our definition of fat is blurred.........strength is just as important, and this is the offseason for a reason. We can talk cutting in April......btw - no flame, but I have better definition that you 2nd pic in that chest routine log from awhile back.......so, it's def. not fat as obese...

Yes, you are exactly rtight with your anerexic comment and I feel sorry for you to have such a harsh opionion on a disease that effects 20% of bodybuilders and 80% have a eating disorder of some nature. We are all victims of this love....luckily I am beating it without help and without becoming one of the 20% that die annually from it. Let's support each other. BTW - don't talk out of both sides of your mouth. You critqued my diet and stats as GOOD! on the diet forum, now inthis different arena, you got other stuff to say........4,000 cals for now, if I can get to 200 with 10lbs of baggage, ill live!

[IBdmfkr]

If I came off harshly about your eating disorder that wasn't my intent.. I was simply trying to make a point that an excessive amount of calories isn't needed to grow.. I did and do like your diet as it's all clean foods and in good portions, doesn't mean I said I'd follow the same diet.. like you said to each their own.. You on one hand have a set weight in your mind that you want to achieve as quickly as possible where I have a set phyique/look in my mind that I'm after.. just different goals brother, no hard feelings I respect your opinions and knowledge.
Btw, yes my chest even under 10% doesn't stay striated but my legs on the other hand stay extremely lean.. genetics are a bitch but appreciate the comments.

Nark.. I know we both agree that carb cycling isn't necessary but tell me, do you have carbs with each and every meal all the way up until bedtime and do you feel it affects fatloss/gain in anyway? Or to you is it all about your total caloric intake for the day and macro timing doesn't make too much of a difference as long as your meals are balanced?

[JohnboyF]

If I came off harshly about your eating disorder that wasn't my intent.. I was simply trying to make a point that an excessive amount of calories isn't needed to grow.. I did and do like your diet as it's all clean foods and in good portions, doesn't mean I said I'd follow the same diet.. like you said to each their own.. You on one hand have a set weight in your mind that you want to achieve as quickly as possible where I have a set phyique/look in my mind that I'm after.. just different goals brother, no hard feelings I respect your opinions and knowledge.
Btw, yes my chest even under 10% doesn't stay striated but my legs on the other hand stay extremely lean.. genetics are a bitch but appreciate the comments.

Nark.. I know we both agree that carb cycling isn't necessary but tell me, do [b]you have carbs with each and every meal all the way up until bedtime and do you feel it affects fatloss/gain in anyway? Or to you is it all about your total caloric intake for the day and macro timing doesn't make too much of a difference as long as your meals are balanced?

I know it's not adressed to me but i will add my .2. I was intially concerned with eliminating carbs later at night. But after reading and expermenting i realized that the thermogenics affects continue after cardio etc. So if you train at 8pm. You do need carbs. It does come down Cals in/Cals out in both cases (bulk or cut)

[*Narkissos*]

hmmmmm, interesting Nark....but what do u do if u are hungry?

Doesn't usually happen.. I spread my kcals and macros more or less equally over the course of the day. I eat nearly the same time.. spaced equally at every sitting ..everday...more or less

eat over your alloted amounts?

Not a problem. Food is not the enemy. If i 'over-eat'.. i am mentally conditioned to see my food intake today as fuel for tomorrow's session. The following day i just train harder.. if such is possible. One day of over-eating cannot do detriment to one's physique.

Also what made u decide to do this way of diet?

It's the way i did it before i came to the boards... When i came to the boards i was surprised that people felt the need to eat so much.. yet achieved so little (no offense) comparably. I've since concluded that most on the message boards know absolutely nothing.. rather just regurgitate what they've heard. Furthermore.. most will not come near to their goals in this life time.. because of the above mentioned condition... again. .no offense intended.

U said u used to eat large kcals and not gain bf much do u think your metabolism has slowed?

You misread/misunderstood. I consumed Large carb amounts.. lower overall protein.. Not large kcals. It balances out overall. My pro intake used to be around .75/gr per lb bodyweight/lbm (depending on the phase i was in bodyweight or lbm would be the determinant).

And yes.. my metabolism was faster at this point. Obviously it must've been for me to be able to handle that large a carb load without gaining fat. So yes i believe it's slowed.. maybe due to environmental factors.. or simply the process of passing the adolescent stage. I think actually i may have sabotaged it when i came to the boards and tried my first low carb contest prep. My coach suggested as much. While i still have a high carb load tolerance.. it has never been the same.

Also your fats are pretty low, I'm surprised that u can gain stregth/stay full on this diet, but if it works thats all that matters!

I think people consume too much food period.. My fats are allotted at 20% of my daily kcals..which i personally think is more than adequate to sustain an optimum hormonal environment. When i bump it higher i don't 'feel' better. Remember... carbs and fat are not directly anabolic .. They play a support role in creating/maintaining/promoting and anabolic environment.. thus there must be a balance between macros.. Not too high of one.. sacrificing the other. I think that is the biggest bane to the planning of a comprehensive diet plan..that's why most people fail. (again no offense..just an observation)

I use: 45/35/20 [carb/pro/fat] as my caloric allotment ratio

Narkissos

[*Narkissos*]

Nark.. I know we both agree that carb cycling isn't necessary but tell me, do you have carbs with each and every meal all the way up until bedtime and do you feel it affects fatloss/gain in anyway?

Honestly.. before the boards (when i had a coach).. he'd have me consume carbs in every meal.. up to bed time. In fact the bed time meal with a complex carb only meal. It was a 'primer'.. as we trained first thing inthe a.m. on an empty stomach. It worked surprisingly well.I was always lean.. and i was strong in the morning.. It supported trainng well. I'd jsut wake up.. no stimulants no nothing.. and go straight to the gym where we'd train high volume and high frequency (monday: legs; chest; triceps; tuesday: shoulder back biceps; wednesday: rest; Thursday: chest legs; triceps; Friday: shoulders; back; biceps.. sat and sunday rest)

He called it eating to support the morning session.

Ok i realise that is not what you asked so i'll refer back to your question...personally i spread my carb/pro/carb intake equally tru out the day. Pre-bed intake may depend on whether i train at night or at another time. Effect on bodyfat? no increase. The only time i cut carbs out of the last meal is if i'm cutting.. and even that's no surety.. I go by how i look and feel.

Or to you is it all about your total caloric intake for the day and macro timing doesn't make too much of a difference as long as your meals are balanced?

You'd recall when i consulted at the beginning of your prep.. i believe in 24-hour nurtrition. The closest i come to practising macro timing.. is sub-macro timing: the strategic consumption of individual substrates at specific times

BCAAs/aminos pre-training.. between meals etc.
Chromium picolinate/b-complex vits. with carb meals etc.

Nark