Carb cycling...

**soulstealer** · 03-28-2008, 12:37 PM

Whats your take as to 1 carb up day verses 2..... I'm currently running like this:

Day 1 300g
Day 2 175g
Day 3 125g
Day 4 300g
Day 5 175g
Day 6 175g
Day 7 125g

And was thinking of something more like this:

Day 1 450g
Day 2 125g
Day 3 50g
Day 4 125g
Day 5 125g
Day 6 125g
Day 7 50g

**sorel_C** · 03-28-2008, 01:00 PM

it all boils down to how flat you get,, but with an average of 125grams,, and 2 days a week of 50grams,,, i highly doubt you would need 2 full carb up days per week,,, again it boils down to your own body ie. fat loss rate,,flatness,

**Ajc330** · 03-28-2008, 01:08 PM

seems like a little too much carbs

**novastepp** · 03-29-2008, 11:38 AM

cutting or bulking?

**FallenWyvern** · 03-29-2008, 07:47 PM

Can someone point me to a good carb cycling post? I did search and didn't really find out what I wanted to.

**Ajc330** · 03-29-2008, 07:57 PM

i believe he is cutting, and carbs are the enemy when cutting

**naturalsux** · 03-29-2008, 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by Ajc330

i believe he is cutting, and carbs are the enemy when cutting

hes close to 300lb though. he needs carbs.

**Narkissos** · 03-29-2008, 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by Ajc330

i believe he is cutting, and carbs are the enemy when cutting

^^No... they are not.

Wow.

**Narkissos** · 03-29-2008, 09:09 PM

I like this one better:

Originally Posted by soulstealer

And was thinking of something more like this:

Day 1 450g
Day 2 125g
Day 3 50g
Day 4 125g
Day 5 125g
Day 6 125g
Day 7 50g

^^re: IN bold above

I'm assuming that the very low carb days are your 'rest' days?

If they aren't..switch your carb-cycling protocol a little to make it so.

Personally i don't go under 150 gr while cutting.

But I don't know your bodytype etc.

So i can only advise based on what you provide.

-CNS

**200byjune** · 03-29-2008, 09:15 PM

hes like 270lbs lol hes a big mofo

**Narkissos** · 03-30-2008, 05:04 AM

Originally Posted by 200byjune

hes like 270lbs lol hes a big mofo

270 lbs... I think 450 is a good re-feed point.

But 50gr is too low imo.

I'd go with:

Day 1 450g
Days 2-7: 150g

I'm only 210 lbs (5'6") by comparison...but never go under 150 lbs.

SoulStealer, what're your overall calories?

3500kcals <> I'd guess?

-CNS

**novastepp** · 03-30-2008, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by Ajc330

i believe he is cutting, and carbs are the enemy when cutting

what? i cut on a pro/carb diet exclusively when cutting. maybe the occasional natty PB binge before bed. but i would advise making blanket sweep comments like that. i would be interested in seeing you try it. the success is great and you are always energized and my workouts are productive every session.

**soulstealer** · 03-30-2008, 05:33 PM

Originally Posted by *Narkissos*

I like this one better:

^^re: IN bold above

I'm assuming that the very low carb days are your 'rest' days?

If they aren't..switch your carb-cycling protocol a little to make it so.

Personally i don't go under 150 gr while cutting.

But I don't know your bodytype etc.

So i can only advise based on what you provide.

-CNS

Day Protein Carbs Fat Calories

Sunday 350 425 80 3820
Monday 350 125 100 2800
Tuesday 300 50 100 2300
Wednesday 350 125 100 2800
Thursday 350 125 100 2800
Friday 350 125 100 2800
Sat 300 50 100 2300

Theres what I just started on.... and yes tuesday and sat are my days off...

And BTW appreciate the responses guys... and Narkissos could why the 150g of carbs? issues with energy or what?

**Narkissos** · 03-31-2008, 12:41 AM

Originally Posted by soulstealer

.... and yes tuesday and sat are my days off...

I thought so

Originally Posted by soulstealer

And BTW appreciate the responses guys... and Narkissos could why the 150g of carbs? issues with energy or what?

Why no lower than 150?

I don't believe that any healthy male bodybuilder needs to 'low-carb' for any extended period of time.

I do incorporate 'low' carbs when i choose to carb-cycle.

However, i believe bodybuilders take 'low' to an extreme.

Below 150gr is one such extreme imo.

I believe being extremely depleted is catabolic...and exacerbates muscle-wasting.

Moderate depletion (i.e. the 'flat' look) is ok.

Extreme..no.

Additionally moderate carbs allow bodybuilders to keep training intensity high...

This factor allows the support of muscle tissue...as intensity and overload are important factors in the fight for maximum muscle retention in a caloric deficit.

@150 (<200gr) My strength stays high...and/or increases (to a point)

...and I, and my clients, maintain the majority of our musculature.

-CNS

**Narkissos** · 03-31-2008, 12:41 AM

Originally Posted by novastepp

what? i cut on a pro/carb diet exclusively when cutting. maybe the occasional natty PB binge before bed. but i would advise making blanket sweep comments like that. i would be interested in seeing you try it. the success is great and you are always energized and my workouts are productive every session.

yep.

-CNS

**soulstealer** · 03-31-2008, 07:41 AM

I gotcha maybe I'll bump my carbs on my day off.... I didnt really notice a crazy tired feeling or anything on my rest days most likely due to the broccoli and asparagus I have been consuming (1lbs of broccoli and 4oz asparagus ED) which I dont count towards my macro's but if you think it will make a significant difference in LBM retained I will try it...BTW I carbed up yesterday and I filled out I look great today.... all my carbs are from brown rice/sweet potato...

**novastepp** · 03-31-2008, 08:18 AM

Originally Posted by soulstealer

I gotcha maybe I'll bump my carbs on my day off.... I didnt really notice a crazy tired feeling or anything on my rest days most likely due to the broccoli and asparagus I have been consuming (1lbs of broccoli and 4oz asparagus ED) which I dont count towards my macro's but if you think it will make a significant difference in LBM retained I will try it...BTW I carbed up yesterday and I filled out I look great today.... all my carbs are from brown rice/sweet potato...

also consider that carbs help with growth, and when better to have something help with growing when you're sitting on your ass on those off days? plus the carb boost will only help you during your next training session.

**soulstealer** · 03-31-2008, 08:51 AM

No no... I get that... I was just hoping that having a 50g day right before my carb up and having a 50g day in the middle of the week would help deplete me / super saturate me and allow me to burn more fat.... also being on Prop/tren /T3/T4 right now and starting Winni on monday muscle loss isnt a huge concern for me I am actually making improvements in my physique....

**Narkissos** · 03-31-2008, 09:51 AM

Originally Posted by soulstealer

I gotcha maybe I'll bump my carbs on my day off.... I didnt really notice a crazy tired feeling or anything on my rest days most likely due to the broccoli and asparagus I have been consuming (1lbs of broccoli and 4oz asparagus ED) which I dont count towards my macro's but if you think it will make a significant difference in LBM retained I will try it...BTW I carbed up yesterday and I filled out I look great today.... all my carbs are from brown rice/sweet potato...

You should... 1lb of broccoli is a shitload.

Carbs count... regardless of their source.

Additionally... soluble fiber adds usable calories.

Don't be caught up in the hype.

3kcals/gr are supplied with soluble fiber... It is broken down to short-chain fatty acids and absorbed in the intestines.

-CNS

**soulstealer** · 03-31-2008, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by *Narkissos*

You should... 1lb of broccoli is a shitload.

Carbs count... regardless of their source.

Additionally... soluble fiber adds usable calories.

Don't be caught up in the hype.

3kcals/gr are supplied with soluble fiber... It is broken down to shot-chain fatty acids and absorbed in the intestines.

-CNS

Woah good stuff man... thanks for the info...

In that case my diet looks closer to this:

Day Protein Carbs Fat Calories

Sunday 370 450 82 4025
Monday 370 150 102 3000
Tuesday 320 75 102 2500
Wednesday 370 150 102 3000
Thursday 370 150 102 3000
Friday 370 150 102 3000
Sat 320 75 102 2500

**Narkissos** · 03-31-2008, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by soulstealer

Woah good stuff man... thanks for the info...

In that case my diet looks closer to this:

Day Protein Carbs Fat Calories

Sunday 370 450 82 4025
Monday 370 150 102 3000
Tuesday 320 75 102 2500
Wednesday 370 150 102 3000
Thursday 370 150 102 3000
Friday 370 150 102 3000
Sat 320 75 102 2500

Putting you closer to a 3500kcal/day** average that i estimated based on your total bodyweight.

Your kcals on the re-feed day (as well as the macro spread) are pretty close to ideal.

How are you timing the carbs on the other days?

Personally...I'd just stick with the diet you have on training days...

Use it on days 2-7...and add a re-feed on day 1

-CNS

**(21025kcal/week total)/7=3004kcal/day ave.

**Narkissos** · 03-31-2008, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by *Narkissos*

Personally...I'd just stick with the diet you have on training days...

Use it on days 2-7...and add a re-feed on day 1

-CNS

i.e.

Day 1 (Sunday) 370pro 450carbs 82fat 4025kcals
Days 2-7: 370pro 150carb 102fat 3000

-CNS

**Narkissos** · 03-31-2008, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by *Narkissos*

Days 2-7: 370pro 150carb 102fat 3000

-CNS

102gr fat is 30% of your alloted kcals for that day by the way.

150 gr carb being 20%

370gr pro being <50%

While I'm not completely comfortable with this style of dieting.. I realize that it can (and does) work for a lot of people.

Bump for your carb-timing.

I'd like to see how you spread your carb intake on this day.

-CNS

**soulstealer** · 03-31-2008, 12:10 PM

8:30 Pre meal 25g protein from why...
9am Meal 1 6 egg whites Oats 50g carbs
11:30 Meal 2 8oz chicken breast 5g carbs from Brocc
2pm Meal 3 8oz chicken breast 5g carbs from Brocc
4:30 Meal 4 8oz chicken breast 5g carbs from Brocc
6pm PWO: 50g protein from whey 40g carbs from Bannana
6:30 Meal 5 30g Brown Rice 37.5g protein Can of tuna
9PM Meal 6 Asparagus 8oz chicken breast some peanut butter...

Throughout the day I have a few almonds here and there to make up the fat difference... but thats basically it... and I throw in some hot peppers for flavor occasionally...

**Narkissos** · 03-31-2008, 12:51 PM

^^looks pretty good.

-CNS

**soulstealer** · 03-31-2008, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by *Narkissos*

^^looks pretty good.

-CNS

Cool thanks for all the replies man... maybe I'll give your advice a try and bump my carb intake on my days off... I just wanna see how I feel for the next week with those 75g days in there...as I still have some weight to drop and only 7 weeks left to do it

**Narkissos** · 03-31-2008, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by soulstealer

Cool thanks for all the replies man... maybe I'll give your advice a try and bump my carb intake on my days off... I just wanna see how I feel for the next week with those 75g days in there...as I still have some weight to drop and only 7 weeks left to do it

how much is 'some' weight?

and... how does your training and cardio look?

-CNS

**soulstealer** · 03-31-2008, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by *Narkissos*

how much is 'some' weight?

and... how does your training and cardio look?

-CNS

Training and cardio 5 days a week...

Sunday Back/Hammies
Mon Chest/Calves
Wed Quads
Thursday Shoulders/traps
Friday Arms/Abs

Cardio Every day 30 minutes PWO training sessions last on average 1:30-1:40 minutes including cardio
All cardio done at approximately 70% of my max heart rate...
Started @ 285lbs and 18% BF approximately
Currently 267.5lbs and 13-14% BF(13.5 if you go by my calipers)

Looking to drop another 14-15lbs in 7 weeks and be <10% heres the thread... if your interested...

Check out my fat ass

Will most likely be increasing my cardio as the weeks come...

Oh and BTW the 7 weeks is just a goal I set for myself.... nothing major coming up...

**Narkissos** · 04-01-2008, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by soulstealer

Training and cardio 5 days a week...

Sunday Back/Hammies
Mon Chest/Calves
Wed Quads
Thursday Shoulders/traps
Friday Arms/Abs

I'd drop the arm day. Not enough total calories burnt on that day imo.

I'd add arms on shoulder day... or split 'em over the chest and shoulder days.

Then 'rest' on Friday..and start the training cycle over from Saturday.

Or something similar like:

Sunday: Back/Hammies
Mon: Chest/Biceps
Wed: Quads/Calves
Thursday: Shoulders/Triceps
Friday: Abs/Cardio
Saturday: Back/Hammies

Sunday: Absolute Rest
Monday: Chest/Biceps
Tuesday:Quads/Calves
Wednesday: Shoulders/Triceps
Thursday: Abs/Cardio

etc.

Originally Posted by soulstealer

Cardio Every day 30 minutes PWO training sessions last on average 1:30-1:40 minutes including cardio

In the last 6 weeks, bump your cardio to 45 minutes PWO.

Originally Posted by soulstealer

All cardio done at approximately 70% of my max heart rate...
Started @ 285lbs and 18% BF approximately
Currently 267.5lbs and 13-14% BF(13.5 if you go by my calipers)

Looking to drop another 14-15lbs in 7 weeks and be <10% heres the thread... if your interested...

Check out my fat ass

Will most likely be increasing my cardio as the weeks come...

Checked it out.. Nice progress.

Originally Posted by soulstealer

Oh and BTW the 7 weeks is just a goal I set for myself.... nothing major coming up...

Fair enough.

I wouldn't end the diet @ 7 weeks though.

I'd try to get as hard as possible.

That way, the next time you try it, it'll be easier.

Good luck.

-CNS

**soulstealer** · 04-01-2008, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by *Narkissos*

I'd drop the arm day. Not enough total calories burnt on that day imo.

I'd add arms on shoulder day... or split 'em over the chest and shoulder days.

Then 'rest' on Friday..and start the training cycle over from Saturday.

Or something similar like:

Sunday: Back/Hammies
Mon: Chest/Biceps
Wed: Quads/Calves
Thursday: Shoulders/Triceps
Friday: Abs/Cardio
Saturday: Back/Hammies

Sunday: Absolute Rest
Monday: Chest/Biceps
Tuesday:Quads/Calves
Wednesday: Shoulders/Triceps
Thursday: Abs/Cardio

etc.

Its funny you outline this peticular workout as its been and idea I've been toying with....

In the last 6 weeks, bump your cardio to 45 minutes PWO.

Will do..... pretty much what I had planned...

Checked it out.. Nice progress.

Thanks man...

Fair enough.

I wouldn't end the diet @ 7 weeks though.

I'd try to get as hard as possible.

That way, the next time you try it, it'll be easier.

I was thinking something along those lines... like if someone gets to 5% bodyfat it will be easier for them to get there again.... Maybe I'll extend the prop an extra 3 weeks and really start to hit it at the end maybe shoot for 7% bodyfat or so....

Good luck.

-CNS

Thanks for the info Narkissos...

**Ajc330** · 04-02-2008, 09:44 AM

just speaking from personal experience, after i started to cut my carbs to a minimal i have seen changes in my bodyfat for the better, i am not the only one this works for, if you see Bonecrusher's thread in the members pictures he keeps carbs to a minimal and eats protein and fat all day

**naturalsux** · 04-02-2008, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by Ajc330

just speaking from personal experience, after i started to cut my carbs to a minimal i have seen changes in my bodyfat for the better, i am not the only one this works for, if you see Bonecrusher's thread in the members pictures he keeps carbs to a minimal and eats protein and fat all day

you and him (BC) weigh nothing compared to Soulstealer.

i know what you saying but carbs are essential.

**soulstealer** · 04-02-2008, 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by naturalsux

you and him (BC) weigh nothing compared to Soulstealer.

i know what you saying but carbs are essential.

This is my same feeling I've been on keto and super low carb diets and I found out for me 125g ED is uber low on a training day and I can get away with 50g on off days but I need to carb up and need a vast array phytonutrients...if I go any lower muscle will fall off me like sweat and I feel weak and like shit...I think I've finally really dialed in my diet....and could reach low single digits if I gave myself enough time.... and started at a low enough body fat... but every is different and I feel some people will get better results with cyclical ketogenic I think its really personally dependent...

**Narkissos** · 04-02-2008, 10:50 PM

^^Personally I think keto-dieting is for the morbidly obese.

Not healthy male athletes.

-CNS

**Ajc330** · 04-03-2008, 09:20 AM

well everyone is different, and you are about half my bodyweight more soulstealer, so i can see you need much food to hold onto your muscle, i will be following you, just don't give up and keep your eyes on the prize, best of luck!