Fat, F-in' Fat.

**m_donnelly** · 02-16-2013, 10:04 AM

Okay, I'd like to start out by telling you fellas a little about myself, starting with stats.

32 years old
17 years of training
5'11
280lbs
27% body fat
40 inch waist
59 inch chest

As you can see, I'm fat. Friggin fat... I was once a very competitive bodybuilder and powerlifter but I was placed on anti-depressants a decade. Disclaimer: my depression is organic so don't pipe in about how a healthy life style is the cure all for it like I'm an idiot who hasn't done everything outside of pharmaceuticals. I have a masters in Exercise Physiology as well so I'm educated.

Anywho, throughout the decade these various antidepressants made me fat, fat as holy-hell. And not because I was eating like a pig but because they drastically changed my metabolism. I went from 200 lbs to 310 lbs in the space if five years, all while training, dieting and consulting nutritionists and medical professionals. Long story short, I'm on a non-traditional AD now that's allowed me to lose weight. But, it's been a serious battle to drop the weight and its all deposited in my gut, hips and thighs (weird proportions too...) So I have a couple if questions-

1. Has anyone else experienced these types of issues with ADs and how have you bounced back?
2. Here's the macros of my diet: tell me if I'm going in the right direction:

330 grams protein
330 grams carbs
75 grams of fat.

This is split between 6 meals and consists of whey, egg whites, chicken breasts, oats, yams, and soy milk.

**Back In Black** · 02-16-2013, 10:19 AM

Hi mate, welcome to the site. Your story is a bummer but pleased to see that things are turning around you you.

I can't comment on your AD's but as for diet, I can help. I think, to lose bf, you have your calories set too high. When cutting I like to feed the lean body mass (LBM) only. If your bf% is correct that gives you a LBM of 205lbs. We use a tough multiplier of 15 which gives a total of approx 3000cals. Deduct 300-500 cals and you are looking at 2500-2700cals for you to lose weight.

I'd recommend a macro split of 50/30/20 pro/carbs/fat.

I'm assuming you eat veggies but just didn't list them?

How does that sound?

**ma_fighter** · 02-16-2013, 11:43 AM

Have you had BW done?

Antidepressants can mess with your Thyroids, so you could be in need of T3/T4
Also, the fat depositions on thighs and hips *can* be related to an imbalance between test and estro.

**m_donnelly** · 02-16-2013, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by Back In Black

Hi mate, welcome to the site. Your story is a bummer but pleased to see that things are turning around you you.

I can't comment on your AD's but as for diet, I can help. I think, to lose bf, you have your calories set too high. When cutting I like to feed the lean body mass (LBM) only. If your bf% is correct that gives you a LBM of 205lbs. We use a tough multiplier of 15 which gives a total of approx 3000cals. Deduct 300-500 cals and you are looking at 2500-2700cals for you to lose weight.

I'd recommend a macro split of 50/30/20 pro/carbs/fat.

I'm assuming you eat veggies but just didn't list them?

How does that sound?

1. Yup, I take in veggies. A lot of cauliflower and broccoli.

2. I was thinking the TDEE calculator was a little high as well. I've actually had a hard time taking in that many calories. I'm still trying to figure things out with this new AD as it doesn't carry any metabolic side effects like the others. It's not even technically and AD, it's an anti convulsant. On the others, I could never get a handle on what the hell they were doing to my metabolism. At one point, I got fed up with dieting and either getting fatter or not losing weight so I decided to go the other way. I took in 4500 calories a day for two months and my weight stayed within 1-2 pounds. I used that as my TDEE, cut calories out of it progressively and ended up gaining weight. I'll try knocking my calories down to 2700 calories for two weeks and see where it goes.

3. I do think the carbs could be a little bit lower and I think I will cut them out of my last two meals. My fifth meal is dinner and my sixth is a protein shake. I can cut the carbs out of the protein shake easily but would a dirty protein source like chicken thighs be kosher for dinner as long as I'm not taking in carbs with it? I used to do this when I was competing but I'm older, fatter and, apparently, not much wiser. LOL.

**m_donnelly** · 02-16-2013, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by ma_fighter

Have you had BW done?

Antidepressants can mess with your Thyroids, so you could be in need of T3/T4
Also, the fat depositions on thighs and hips *can* be related to an imbalance between test and estro.

Yup, I just had blood work done two weeks ago and everything is in top order. My doc said that I had a better blood profile than he does and he's a triathlete. I haven't had hormone levels checked and that's probably a good idea. However, I don't really have any signs of low testosterone ; my energy is high, libido is intact, and I can still train like a bull (405lb squats for working sets of 10 reps this morning).

**Back In Black** · 02-16-2013, 12:12 PM

If you hit your macro's it's fine. At 2700cals you need to be approx

335g pro
200g carbs
60g fat

**--->>405<<---** · 02-16-2013, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by m_donnelly

Yup, I just had blood work done two weeks ago and everything is in top order. My doc said that I had a better blood profile than he does and he's a triathlete. I haven't had hormone levels checked and that's probably a good idea. However, I don't really have any signs of low testosterone; my energy is high, libido is intact, and I can still train like a bull (405lb squats for working sets of 10 reps this morning).

personally id get hormone panel anyways to be thorough. i didnt think i was low test either and my free test camee back at 7.3 (8.7-25.1)!!

worth a half hour appointment IMO.

**ma_fighter** · 02-16-2013, 05:38 PM

For now I'd say just staying within the macros will get things going nicely, just be careful with the sugars.

Then bit by bit get your diet more in check, 405 and Back in Black (Stem) are awesome with nutrition, so run a sample diet (with macros) by them to get feedback.
I went from 256lbs to 170lbs, and started out just cutting back a bit on the calories, then got my diet more dialed in as I went along.
405 has also done a big cut, and look at his avatar now (well, not right now actually, but once he gets a pic of himself back up there)

Lots of knowledge here, you're in good hands.
And I still think you should get at least test and estrogen checked, better safe then sorry =)

**m_donnelly** · 02-16-2013, 06:16 PM

Thanks for all of the input, fellas, great stuff. I think this will turn out well. Right now, my plan is to come up with two 'recipes' with a 50/30/20 protein/carb/fat ratio and eat them four times a day. I'm tired of eating six times a day: I don't stay full. It gets boring but it's an easy way to do it.

**m_donnelly** · 02-23-2013, 05:09 PM

Alright, so I went with a 50/30/20 split between 2500-2700 calories for the last week and I think either my carbs or my calories are too low. I became very over-trained; I got edgy, irritable, my sleep went to sh-t bad I had to piss three-four times a night. I also gained three pounds; holding on to water weight because of high cortisol levels.

Suggestions?

**--->>405<<---** · 02-23-2013, 08:23 PM

Originally Posted by m_donnelly

Alright, so I went with a 50/30/20 split between 2500-2700 calories for the last week and I think either my carbs or my calories are too low. I became very over-trained; I got edgy, irritable, my sleep went to sh-t bad I had to piss three-four times a night. I also gained three pounds; holding on to water weight because of high cortisol levels.

Suggestions?

yeh post ur complete diet including total cals and macros as well as meal times and workout time and cardio duration and frequency and intensity..

depending what ur diet lookd like prior to this week will poss explain ur irritability.. surely u didnt think cutting fat was gonna be fun and easy did u??

**m_donnelly** · 02-23-2013, 08:50 PM

Here was the macro average for the week:
Protein: 341
Carbs: 197
Fat: 65

Typical meals:

Breakfast: Egg whites, oatmeal
snack: 2 scoops Muscle Milk in 16 oz lite soy milk
Lunch: Chicen breast, yam and greens
Snack: 2 scoops Muscle Milk in 16 oz lite soy milk (PWO)
Dinner: ground turkey, brown rice and greens

This last weeks work out:

Monday: Fasted AM Cardio: 35 minutes at 120-130 bpm. PM: Chest (12 sets), tris (8 sets)
Tuesday: Fasted AM cardio: 45 minutes at 120-130 bpm PM: Back (16 sets), bis (8 sets), calves (8 sets)
Thursday: Fasted AM Cardio: 30 minutes at 130-135 bpm. PM: Quads (16 sets), hamstrings (8 sets)
Friday: Fasted AM Cardio: 40 minutes at 120-125 bpm. PM: Shoulders (12 sets)

As I stated before, I was a competitive bodybuilder and powerlifter a decade ago so I know what it takes to drop weight. In fact, the diet I posted up there is basically what I have been doing for years. But again, the ADs have had my metabolism severely phucked up. I could careless about being irritable or suffering some insomnia if I were coming down in weight but I'm not. Also, the polyuria (hitting the head all night) is a sure sign of high blood sugar caused by elevated cortisol levels, my GP and I have chatted about that.

**m_donnelly** · 02-23-2013, 08:53 PM

Meal times:

Breakfast: 5:30 am
Snack: 10am
Lunch: 11:30pm
Snack/PWO: 4pm
Dinner: 6pm

**--->>405<<---** · 02-24-2013, 06:35 AM

Originally Posted by m_donnelly

Here was the macro average for the week:
Protein: 341
Carbs: 197
Fat: 65

Typical meals:

Breakfast: Egg whites, oatmeal
snack: 2 scoops Muscle Milk in 16 oz lite soy milk wats the macros of the muscle milk?? im showing: 350cals, 32g pro, 12g carbs, 18g fat, (6g sugar) ; for soy milk im showing: 264cals, 16g pro, 31g carb, 9g fat (20g sugar) totaling: 614cals, 48g pro, 43g carbs, 27g fat (26g sugar) NOT a good profile IMO.. id prefer to see u get these macros more separately (fats and carbs) as well as from meat and complex carbs.. might be something to look at..
Lunch: Chicen breast, yam and greens
Snack: 2 scoops Muscle Milk in 16 oz lite soy milk (PWO)
Dinner: ground turkey, brown rice and greens

This last weeks work out:

Monday: Fasted AM Cardio: 35 minutes at 120-130 bpm. PM: Chest (12 sets), tris (8 sets)
Tuesday: Fasted AM cardio: 45 minutes at 120-130 bpm PM: Back (16 sets), bis (8 sets), calves (8 sets)
Thursday: Fasted AM Cardio: 30 minutes at 130-135 bpm. PM: Quads (16 sets), hamstrings (8 sets)
Friday: Fasted AM Cardio: 40 minutes at 120-125 bpm. PM: Shoulders (12 sets)

As I stated before, I was a competitive bodybuilder and powerlifter a decade ago so I know what it takes to drop weight. In fact, the diet I posted up there is basically what I have been doing for years. But again, the ADs have had my metabolism severely phucked up. I could careless about being irritable or suffering some insomnia if I were coming down in weight but I'm not. Also, the polyuria (hitting the head all night) is a sure sign of high blood sugar caused by elevated cortisol levels, my GP and I have chatted about that.

i forgot u used to be a bber. u should know then 1 week is not long enuff to make a proper determination of the success/failure of a specific program. i would give it at least one more week. u know ur body is making adjustments to the new diet and training.

at 2737cals (approx) u could reduce cals further to 2500. being that ur 25+%bf u should be able to drop fat just by cleaning up ur diet and doing some exercise. if ur feeling ur having blood sugar issues i suggest getting a glucometer and monitoring ur response to certain foods. also u are having carbs i every meal. this is something i would not do. personally id reduce carbs to at least 180g and split them between meal 1, pre w/o, PWO at 60g per meal.

how much water are u drinking?? id shoot for at least 1 gallon and try to increase it to 2 gallons per day when u can. cortisol someone else will have to help u with as i have not an understanding of this..

IMO both muscle milk meals would do well to replace with lean meat and green veggie and just eliminate it altogether. especially if the macros i found for them is correct. thats way too much fat and sugar IMO.. id find a better protein powder. like an isolate.. something fat free and carb free ..

id also bump duration of cardio to 45 mins and hit it 5-6 days per week..

one other possibility is ur bf% may be wrong and u could be eating too many calories. how did u have bf% checked???

**m_donnelly** · 02-24-2013, 07:18 AM

Here's my major concern: the last time I had the above issues, I went to my doctor. All of the symptoms pointed to Type 2 diabetes so we had blood work done. Everything came back kosher except for my cortisol levels which were high. He told me I had been overtraining and that I needed to pay attention to the signs when they popped up. And, it happened again this week.

I do understand that it's going to be a tough process. But, it's going to be a whole helluva lot worse if my adrenal hormines are all over the place.

**m_donnelly** · 02-24-2013, 07:19 AM

I used underwater submersion for my bf%; it's as accurate as you can get.

**--->>405<<---** · 02-24-2013, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by m_donnelly

This last weeks work out:

Monday: Fasted AM Cardio: 35 minutes at 120-130 bpm. PM: Chest (12 sets), tris (8 sets)
Tuesday: Fasted AM cardio: 45 minutes at 120-130 bpm PM: Back (16 sets), bis (8 sets), calves (8 sets)
Thursday: Fasted AM Cardio: 30 minutes at 130-135 bpm. PM: Quads (16 sets), hamstrings (8 sets)
Friday: Fasted AM Cardio: 40 minutes at 120-125 bpm. PM: Shoulders (12 sets)

heres an idea u could try. instead of doing a full day on each body part why not run an upper/lower split (which is what i used to cut to 9%bf while hanging onto all my LBM).

lift E3D.. right now ur focus is losing fat and maintaining LBM. u will be able to do that just fine lifting E3D IMO. focus on big, heavy lifts and low reps. only do 3 work sets max at 5 reps.. if u can do more than 5 reps add weight. if u are overtraining this should fix it. ur not gonna make any gains (except muscle memory) eating at a deficit so stop lifting like ur trying to bulk.. focus on losing fat and maybe as ur body leans out and gets used to moving the adrenal probs will take care of themselves..

im not a doctor but i do know when cutting fat is ur primary goal, this is to be done on the cardio equipment (or park) and at the dinner table.. NOT in the weight room.. (i would like to note for all the argumentative people i am NOT saying weight lifting is not important but that it is less important than diet and cardio for fat loss

)..

lift EOD or 3 days per week and do cardio 6 days per week. on non-lifting days u could increase ur cardio to 60 mins.. something along these lines.. u know how to play with the factors and u know what the factors are.. play with em and find what works.. IMO its gonna be less lifting and more cardio for now.. also on non lifting days i would reduce cals down to like 2000.. primarily in the form of carbs..

**m_donnelly** · 02-24-2013, 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by --->>405<<---

heres an idea u could try. instead of doing a full day on each body part why not run an upper/lower split (which is what i used to cut to 9%bf while hanging onto all my LBM).

lift E3D.. right now ur focus is losing fat and maintaining LBM. u will be able to do that just fine lifting E3D IMO. focus on big, heavy lifts and low reps. only do 3 work sets max at 5 reps.. if u can do more than 5 reps add weight. if u are overtraining this should fix it. ur not gonna make any gains (except muscle memory) eating at a deficit so stop lifting like ur trying to bulk.. focus on losing fat and maybe as ur body leans out and gets used to moving the adrenal probs will take care of themselves..

im not a doctor but i do know when cutting fat is ur primary goal, this is to be done on the cardio equipment (or park) and at the dinner table.. NOT in the weight room.. (i would like to note for all the argumentative people i am NOT saying weight lifting is not important but that it is less important than diet and cardio for fat loss

)..

lift EOD or 3 days per week and do cardio 6 days per week. on non-lifting days u could increase ur cardio to 60 mins.. something along these lines.. u know how to play with the factors and u know what the factors are.. play with em and find what works.. IMO its gonna be less lifting and more cardio for now.. also on non lifting days i would reduce cals down to like 2000.. primarily in the form of carbs..

Thanks, this looks good. I never thought about dialing back to lower volume with heavier sets.

It gets frustrating because this type of programming is what I used to dial down when I competed. I never had a hard time cutting up back then so the the last five plus years of training and dieting have pissed me off.

I do need to have hormone levels run as I am starting to think there's an imbalance there. I might have phucked up my system by not being smarter with my AAS cycles all those years ago.

**--->>405<<---** · 02-24-2013, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by m_donnelly

Thanks, this looks good. I never thought about dialing back to lower volume with heavier sets.

It gets frustrating because this type of programming is what I used to dial down when I competed. I never had a hard time cutting up back then so the the last five plus years of training and dieting have pissed me off.

I do need to have hormone levels run as I am starting to think there's an imbalance there. I might have phucked up my system by not being smarter with my AAS cycles all those years ago.

dude u said a mouthful there!

if u dont know where ur free test and other stuff like thyroid etc.. are at definitely make an appointment. i got diagnosed with low test 18 months ago and was at 27%bf 213 lbs and couldnt lean out or gain muscle worth a dang!

now im 190lbs 9%bf and life is freaking awesome! im 38 and in the best shape of my life (at least since i was 20!)

make an appointment tomorrow man!

**m_donnelly** · 02-24-2013, 01:07 PM

I've had my thyroid panel checked and it came back alright.

I'm in the process of setting up TRT right now and I'm thinking that'll make a huge difference. I'm going to get labs done next week and I can honestly only imagine whats going to come back. But, I'll tell you one thing; my test levels surely aren't @optimum", lol.

**m_donnelly** · 03-02-2013, 02:37 PM

Thanks for all of the advice, fellas. I'm down six pounds and I'm getting leaner.

**--->>405<<---** · 03-02-2013, 08:21 PM

good work dude! keep it going

**m_donnelly** · 03-03-2013, 03:10 PM

I decided to take an unconventional approach to the training. I've ditched the bodybuilding routines and started back up with Westside Barbell powerlifting stuff. Made a big difference.

**m_donnelly** · 03-04-2013, 04:51 PM

Make that 7.5 pounds down.

**--->>405<<---** · 03-04-2013, 07:39 PM

how u doin with the carbs and the overtraining symptoms???

**m_donnelly** · 03-04-2013, 08:12 PM

I raised the carbs and made a big change in training which has made a big difference. I went with a 40/40/30 split, cut my calorie base down to 2400 and I've been doing Westside Barbell's 4 day program. Basically, just pushing heavy weight and doing light cardio. The higher rep ranges and hypertrophy splits were too much with the caloric restriction.

I've never used Louie Simmons' training protocols before and it's been fantastic; dropping fat and getting stronger. I've actually tacked 40 pounds on to my squat which has been awesome. His training methods are very effective and leaning out by dieting and box squatting is sweet.

Thanks again for all the help.

**GirlyGymRat** · 03-05-2013, 05:56 AM

Hi. You should consider joining the conditioning contest. Supposed to start march 15th or there abouts!!! Send a pm to knockout_power!

**m_donnelly** · 03-10-2013, 09:24 AM

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I will admit, I haven't been as diligent with the macros as I should. I've kept that fat under control but carbs have been around 45%, versus 30-40%.

**m_donnelly** · 03-10-2013, 09:30 AM

/>
I will admit, I haven't been as diligent with the macros as I should. I've kept that fat under control but carbs have been around 45%, versus 30-40%.

**--->>405<<---** · 03-10-2013, 02:21 PM

tighten it up dude!

**m_donnelly** · 03-17-2013, 09:07 AM

Knocked off a pound and a half this week. My strength levels have dropped which is disconcerting but I expected it. I haven't decided if I'm going to up my calorie deficit to 500 calories a day or stick stay at 1'000. In terms of the gym, I'm going to back off on the weights and replace it with a little more cardio as I'm getting slightly over trained.

**GirlyGymRat** · 03-17-2013, 09:14 AM

Originally Posted by m_donnelly

Knocked off a pound and a half this week. My strength levels have dropped which is disconcerting but I expected it. I haven't decided if I'm going to up my calorie deficit to 500 calories a day or stick stay at 1'000. In gems of the gym, I'm going to back off on the weights and replace it with a little more cardio as I'm getting slightly over trained.

Headed in the right direction! Good job!!!

**m_donnelly** · 03-24-2013, 08:51 AM

One more pound down this week. It's coming off slowly but I've gained a pound and a half of LBM. I may up the cardio a bit this week and see if it comes off a little faster. I'm hesitant though; I've been toeing a fine line between proper diet and exercise and over training.

**m_donnelly** · 03-31-2013, 03:32 PM

I'm bumping this to the top as I've run into a SNAFU.

I discussed this earlier but I still need some insight. Lately, I've been having symptoms of hyperglycemia when I weight train. I have to piss constantly, I damn near die of thirst, and I crave carbs (don't worry, I don't give in). I went to my GP again and he stated that the heavy weight training combined with the caloric deficit are jacking up my stress hormones and causing my blood sugar to spike.

I have only been lifting 2-3 days a week, the sessions are short (12 sets total) and heavy (3-5 reps). I've been doing some form of cardio five a week.

So, should I back off on the weight training? Up the calories a bit? Up the carbs? Most of my carbs come from my pre and post workout meals on days when I lift.

**Pittsburgh412** · 03-31-2013, 03:36 PM

I have been on AD since the age of 12 I'm 25 now 285 ,5'11" waist 36/38 chest 52.
Now that you mention it it might have contributed to my fat

**pressure** · 03-31-2013, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by m_donnelly

Alright, so I went with a 50/30/20 split between 2500-2700 calories for the last week and I think either my carbs or my calories are too low. I became very over-trained; I got edgy, irritable, my sleep went to sh-t bad I had to piss three-four times a night. I also gained three pounds; holding on to water weight because of high cortisol levels.

Suggestions?

Doesn't sound good