New to this

[steroid.com 1]

I'd drop the trib, I bet it's a bunch of bullshit anyways. You def want the HCG though to maintain the sack & other hormone production within the Testes. Besides, my DOC feels the HCG actually helps to boost Test levels in conjunction with the TRT.For injections, choose a time that's convenient & stick with it to maintain consistent blood levels. Plus, ask your doctor for an injection tutorial. IMO you shouldnt depend on your wife for this. Why put her in that position?

It does...an added benefit

[zaggahamma]

Shot time of day doesnt matter...as api stated...when convenient to you...also agree with the not having the wife do it...i do all the stickin in my house

[NOSUPERMODEL]

They did explain it to me before, but since this is my first time ever to inject I am a little nervous. My wife is cool and she can handle it. I think its just first time jitters for her also.

I still haven't heard back from the nurse or doctor. Hopefully I can get in touch with them on my way home.

[steroid.com 1]

x 2 on finding a good doc. The starting dose seems a little high, but can be adjusted depending how you feel. Dont be too concerned on the actual numbers, but how yr body feels/is reacting. Definitely talk with him on the HCG . I'm approaching mid 40's and basically have similar stats to you @ 6 foot, 270, 15-17% BF. I am on 200 mgs per week divided in two doses + HCG 250 units 2 x week + Anastrazole .5 mgs 3 x week.

I dont work well on low carbs so I dont know.
After one year in, I've only dropped about 5% BF, but have significantly increased muscularity.
I would not start training harder until you are at least 6 months in. Your muscle strength will increase much faster than what your tendons can handle. If you push too early, injuries can result. Believe me on this...
I only take Whey Protein, Multi Vitamin, Fish/Flax Seed Oil on a daily basis.

Definitely stay away from Creatine! Your Creatinine Blood levels will go through the roof & tax your kidneys if you supplement while on TRT & working out. Tell your Doc the supplements that you are on.

I limit my amount of supplements as I dont feel the benefits outweigh the possible strain on the liver.

Good luck...

APIs - I don't want to hyjack this tread so it may be better to start another one re this subject; but can you please site studies and research to support your statement regarding Creatine and why it would tax the kidney while on a TRT protocol and working out?

I don't want an opinion, thank you; just some research studies supporting your statement.

Thank you!

[GotNoBlueMilk]

Shot time of day doesnt matter...as api stated...when convenient to you...also agree with the not having the wife do it...i do all the stickin in my house

So no strapon for Mrs. jpkman!

[NOSUPERMODEL]

First shot at home and everything went well. The wife was nervous at first, but after she did it she said that was no big deal. So we are good there. I am really looking forward to what is to come out of this treatment.

[zaggahamma]

So no strapon for Mrs. jpkman!

you would be very correct

[steroid.com 1]

First shot at home and everything went well. The wife was nervous at first, but after she did it she said that was no big deal. So we are good there. I am really looking forward to what is to come out of this treatment.

It's a life changer in my book! You will look and feel better than you have in many years...and keep in mind, this is for life.

[APIs]

APIs - I don't want to hyjack this tread so it may be better to start another one re this subject; but can you please site studies and research to support your statement regarding Creatine and why it would tax the kidney while on a TRT protocol and working out?

I don't want an opinion, thank you; just some research studies supporting your statement.

Thank you!

No offense, but I don’t need to research it any further, as I've experienced it first-hand. As a lifter & steak-eater for many years, my Creatinine Blood levels have always been on the high side from 1.4 up to 1.7+ which is not that concerning. However, when I would add some type of Creatine supplementation my levels would easily spike above 3.0+. Ask any Doctor, being at those levels long-term, can damage your kidneys and my TRT Doc has confirmed this. In fact, he sees patients that come in who already have been supplementing with both Test Cyp & Creatine for years and have levels at 9.0 & higher with evidence of early kidney failure. He has one patient that recently had to go on Kidney Dialysis because of this. Staying at these levels for years can definitely be detrimental.

IMO, some things in life don’t need official validation to be true. In high school my friend Bob got a STD from his love for dating skanky-whores. After hearing this, I felt it’s probably best not to date skanky-whores like Bob did. I didn’t need to review any written studies on the subject & guess what? I've never had a STD.

If you require some type of written research that confirms this then I guess you need to dig for it.

Why would anyone supplement with Creatine in the long-term anyways (especially while on TRT)? Let's be honest, any benefits from prolonged Creatine supplementation are minimal at best. But then again, I guess you could say that's my own opinion...

[steroid.com 1]

No offense, but I don’t need to research it any further, as I've experienced it first-hand. As a lifter & steak-eater for many years, my Creatinine Blood levels have always been on the high side from 1.4 up to 1.7+ which is not that concerning. However, when I would add some type of Creatine supplementation my levels would easily spike above 3.0+. Ask any Doctor, being at those levels long-term, can damage your kidneys and my TRT Doc has confirmed this. In fact, he sees patients that come in who already have been supplementing with both Test Cyp & Creatine for years and have levels at 9.0 & higher with evidence of early kidney failure. He has one patient that recently had to go on Kidney Dialysis because of this. Staying at these levels for years can definitely be detrimental.

IMO, some things in life don’t need official validation to be true. In high school my friend Bob got a STD from his love for dating skanky-whores. After hearing this, I felt it’s probably best not to date skanky-whores like Bob did. I didn’t need to review any written studies on the subject & guess what? I've never had a STD.

If you require some type of written research that confirms this then I guess you need to dig for it.

Why would anyone supplement with Creatine in the long-term anyways (especially while on TRT)? Let's be honest, any benefits from prolonged Creatine supplementation are minimal at best. But then again, I guess you could say that's my own opinion...

No, this is a well thought out response; thank you. I guess it really depends on the individual and how the body processes creatine levels. Your Docs thoughts on the matter are interesting. I've been adding creatine to my protein shanks for almost a year and I don't feel anything but that doesn't mean anything either.

[NOSUPERMODEL]

Still feeling really good. I still have not resolved the issue with the HCG yet, but that will be taken care of this week hopefully. The wife is really enjoying this. I can't keep my hands off of her. I am really interested in seeing if there is any noticeable changes in the gym this week since I will get 5 days in this week. Going to miss today because I have a golf tournament to play in. I have noticed a little more a drive in me lately. I haven't noticed any weight loss yet, but of course I just spent the weekend at the deer lease hunting turkey and it was not the greatest diet over the weekend. Just a question but how does alcohol effect all of this?

[zaggahamma]

Still feeling really good. I still have not resolved the issue with the HCG yet, but that will be taken care of this week hopefully. The wife is really enjoying this. I can't keep my hands off of her. I am really interested in seeing if there is any noticeable changes in the gym this week since I will get 5 days in this week. Going to miss today because I have a golf tournament to play in. I have noticed a little more a drive in me lately. I haven't noticed any weight loss yet, but of course I just spent the weekend at the deer lease hunting turkey and it was not the greatest diet over the weekend. Just a question but how does alcohol effect all of this?

you'd be perfect for the new Low T commercials and get that dork off the tv that does them...lol...

alcohol in moderation bro

moderation is the key to almost everything

[Vettester]

Not to be the party spoiler here, but why is it exactly you're on TRT? I think your initial post complained of some sluggishness and such, and wham the doctor has you on 200mg/wk of test as the cure-all for this. Yea, HCG is great stuff, permitting you have secondary hypogonadism and your testicles function correctly, but just lack the needed LH signal. And granted, TRT is a great treatment permitting it's the needed medication to resolve the problem. However, what if the problem is something else? What if it's a case of sleep, diet, thyroid, B12 depletion, WBC issues that would indicate something deeper, etc., the list goes on.

I'm sorry, but it just seems the cart is a little ahead of the horse. Shouldn't the program work like ...
Step 1. A patient feels sluggish, has various low T symptoms, seeks advise from a doctor.
Step 2. The doctor should note symptoms, RUN FULL LABS, await results and review it with patient.
Step 3. Prescribe medications as needed to treat confirmed diagnosis, and/or possible MRI and scans of pituitary if LH/FSH is low, or testicle region if LH/FSH levels are elevated.
Step 4. Run additional labs and follow up visit in 6 weeks to determine how patient is responding, if adjustments are needed, and review specific results (such as PSA) to ensure that the TRT regiment isn't a negative factor with the patient's health.

Again, apologies if these steps were taken, but I didn't see any real lab results that your doctor was working on.
Thanks

[pyramid]

Not to be the party spoiler here, but why is it exactly you're on TRT? I think your initial post complained of some sluggishness and such, and wham the doctor has you on 200mg/wk of test as the cure-all for this. Yea, HCG is great stuff, permitting you have secondary hypogonadism and your testicles function correctly, but just lack the needed LH signal. And granted, TRT is a great treatment permitting it's the needed medication to resolve the problem. However, what if the problem is something else? What if it's a case of sleep, diet, thyroid, B12 depletion, WBC issues that would indicate something deeper, etc., the list goes on.

I'm sorry, but it just seems the cart is a little ahead of the horse. Shouldn't the program work like ...
Step 1. A patient feels sluggish, has various low T symptoms, seeks advise from a doctor.
Step 2. The doctor should note symptoms, RUN FULL LABS, await results and review it with patient.
Step 3. Prescribe medications as needed to treat confirmed diagnosis, and/or possible MRI and scans of pituitary if LH/FSH is low, or testicle region if LH/FSH levels are elevated.
Step 4. Run additional labs and follow up visit in 6 weeks to determine how patient is responding, if adjustments are needed, and review specific results (such as PSA) to ensure that the TRT regiment isn't a negative factor with the patient's health.

Again, apologies if these steps were taken, but I didn't see any real lab results that your doctor was working on.
Thanks

Agree...

[NOSUPERMODEL]

The doctor did probably jump to a conclusion on this, but I do feel better overall. I did talk to one of the nurses this morning, and asked if they got my blood work back in. She said yes and said that my testosterone level was 419. Now I don't know what scale that is on, but considering my bloodwork in 2009 had a test level at 542 I would assume it was from the same lab. They will be mailing the results to my house so as soon as I get them I will post them. If my testosterone has dropped thay much from October 2009 to April 2011 is that bad?

[zaggahamma]

The doctor did probably jump to a conclusion on this, but I do feel better overall. I did talk to one of the nurses this morning, and asked if they got my blood work back in. She said yes and said that my testosterone level was 419. Now I don't know what scale that is on, but considering my bloodwork in 2009 had a test level at 542 I would assume it was from the same lab. They will be mailing the results to my house so as soon as I get them I will post them. If my testosterone has dropped thay much from October 2009 to April 2011 is that bad?

levels fluctuate...numbers are numbers...neither of those are super low but everybody is different...

most importantly you mention YOU FEEL OVERALL BETTER...i'd take that over a number ANYDAY......bloodwork is necessary but symptoms and how you feel are equally...can u be more specific on your overall well being since starting trt

[NOSUPERMODEL]

Well these are some of the changes I have noticed since starting TRT.

1. I have not had to pull over once to take a quick nap to "refresh" myself even though I am sleeping the same amount of time as before.
2. I have noticed that I seem more alert.
3. I own a business with my dad, and I am noticing more of a "go get it" attitude.
4. I have noticed increased stamina in the bedroom. The wife really likes this one. LOL!!!!
5. I have noticed a little more intensity in the gym. Could be just in my head though, because I have not been on it very long.
6. I am recovering better after the gym.

[zaggahamma]

Well these are some of the changes I have noticed since starting TRT.

1. I have not had to pull over once to take a quick nap to "refresh" myself even though I am sleeping the same amount of time as before.
2. I have noticed that I seem more alert.
3. I own a business with my dad, and I am noticing more of a "go get it" attitude.
4. I have noticed increased stamina in the bedroom. The wife really likes this one. LOL!!!!
5. I have noticed a little more intensity in the gym. Could be just in my head though, because I have not been on it very long.
6. I am recovering better after the gym.

nuff said

[APIs]

nuff said

lol...

[NOSUPERMODEL]

Okay guys well I received the blood work results back from the doctor.

RESULTS RANGE
Testosterone , Total, LC/MS/MS 419 250-1100ng/dL
Testosterone, Free 44.9 46.0-224.5pg/mL
Testosterone, Bioavailable 108.0 110.0-575.0ng/dL
SHBG 40 8-48nmo/L
Albumin, Serum 5.3 3.6-5.1pg/dL----Not sure about this one, copy is not very dark
Estradiol 33 13-54 pg/mL
PSA, Total .8 < or = 4.0 ng/mL

Can anyone help me understand what all this means.

Thanks in advance.

[zaggahamma]

I pasted this from wiki...


Serum albumin, often referred to simply as albumin is a protein that in humans is encoded by the ALB gene.[1][2][3]

Serum albumin is the most abundant plasma protein in mammals. Albumin is essential for maintaining the osmotic pressure needed for proper distribution of body fluids between intravascular compartments and body tissues. It also acts as a plasma carrier by non-specifically binding several hydrophobic steroid hormones and as a transport protein for hemin and fatty acids. Too much serum albumin in the body can be harmful.
Contents
[hide]

* 1 Function
* 2 Types
* 3 Physical properties
* 4 Structure
* 5 See also
* 6 References
* 7 External links

[edit] Function

Major contributors to oncotic pressure (known also as colloid osmotic pressure) of plasma; carriers for various substances.

Albumin is a soluble, monomeric protein which comprises about one-half of the blood serum protein. Albumin functions primarily as a carrier protein for steroids , fatty acids, and thyroid hormones and plays a role in stabilizing extracellular fluid volume. Albumin is a globular un-glycosylated serum protein of molecular weight 65,000. Albumin is synthesized in the liver as preproalbumin which has an N-terminal peptide that is removed before the nascent protein is released from the rough endoplasmic reticulum. The product, proalbumin, is in turn cleaved in the Golgi vesicles to produce the secreted albumin.[3]

I wonder if this could be the reason for the lower(not low) free test and high(not out of range) shbg also the bioavailable test being low...

will be looking forward to how your meeting with the doctor and new bloodwork after being on trt...i'm sure he would have given you halt orders if it were something to discontinue...when was your appt again?

[NOSUPERMODEL]

I go back in 4 weeks. He did say to continue with what was already prescribed until more blood work is done.

[Vettester]

Yea, the elevated SHBG and Albumin levels will tie up your free testosterone %, taking away the amount of actual bio-available T. Look into some stinging nettle root to help reduce those scores and free up more testosterone.

[steroid.com 1]

Yea, the elevated SHBG and Albumin levels will tie up your free testosterone %, taking away the amount of actual bio-available T. Look into some stinging nettle root to help reduce those scores and free up more testosterone.

^^^^ Agree. Elevated SHGB creates a bond to receptor sites on Test that will not break making the T useless. Albumin binds as well but not so strong and some T can me used. In combo, plus slightly elevated E2 (33 should be ideal at 22) would explain your situation for sure.

You need to get all three of those down or the exogenous T your taking now will be bound as well and won't do you any good.

[zaggahamma]

^^^^ Agree. Elevated SHGB creates a bond to receptor sites on Test that will not break making the T useless. Albumin binds as well but not so strong and some T can me used. In combo, plus slightly elevated E2 (33 should be ideal at 22) would explain your situation for sure.

You need to get all three of those down or the exogenous T your taking now will be bound as well and won't do you any good.

dont forget trt is INDIVIDUAL and ideal can be different as such...

do you have an ideal test level number theory? 888?

[steroid.com 1]

dont forget trt is INDIVIDUAL and ideal can be different as such...

do you have an ideal test level number theory? 888?

Not my "theory" but what I've read is that men on a T protocol should try to get their E2 levels in an optimal range and where optimal range is defined where a healthy normal male would be at the age of say 28 = low 20's.

Lab ranges don't tell the story as you and I know Jman. A "normal" lab range of 13-54 pg/mL is not uncommon for E2. So, if a young normal healthy 28 year old male is at 23 and a 50 year old guy like me is at 52 do you think we both will feel the same?

IMO the answer is no. I had all kinds of high E2 sides yet my labs said I was "normal".

No different then why we inject Test; we strive to get our Test levels to optimal levels of a young healthy male and E2 levels are not any different.

Life Extensions has some really good articles on this subject; their opinion is anything over 29 is suspect.

[NOSUPERMODEL]

^^^^ Agree. Elevated SHGB creates a bond to receptor sites on Test that will not break making the T useless. Albumin binds as well but not so strong and some T can me used. In combo, plus slightly elevated E2 (33 should be ideal at 22) would explain your situation for sure.

You need to get all three of those down or the exogenous T your taking now will be bound as well and won't do you any good.

This is something my doctor should know, correct?

[NOSUPERMODEL]

What does it mean if you are "loads" are not the same amount as they used to be?

[steroid.com 1]

This is something my doctor should know, correct?

I would hope so...

Vetteman is right in his response to you...you can help bring some of those down yourself. Also, add 90 mgs of Zinc daily and look for DIM in your vitamin shop both will help out as well.

Keep an eye on your E2. It's not way out there by any means but it may continue to climb so look for high E2 sides as your guide.

[NOSUPERMODEL]

I would hope so...

Vetteman is right in his response to you...you can help bring some of those down yourself. Also, add 90 mgs of Zinc daily and look for DIM in your vitamin shop both will help out as well.

Keep an eye on your E2. It's not way out there by any means but it may continue to climb so look for high E2 sides as your guide.

I take ZMA currently right now. Is that the same thing?

[NOSUPERMODEL]

Going back through the post I am guessing I should start seeing some weight loss and body changes in about 2 weeks or so. Is that correct? I haven't really noticed any body changes yet so I was just rereading through the post. I will be taking my 3rd shot tonight.

[NOSUPERMODEL]

I was wondering if I should ask my doctor about Arimidex . I know he has me on Tamoxifen , but after the first two week I do not take it everyday. I only take it on days that I do a shot. From what I have read Arimidex is taken daily and I also read it has been to show a 50% drop in estradiol.

So should I ask him about this. I go back to the doctor on May 12th for more blood work.

[Vettester]

Yes, you should be talking about adex/anastrozole with your doc ... Can you refresh me with your current E2 score? Kind of wondering why your doc has you on a SERM like Tamox, are you dealing with gyno related issues or anything else? I wouldn't look at taking Adex on a daily basis at all. 3x/wk (IMO) is the max you need throughout the week. Dosage will depend on current E2 score.

[zaggahamma]

Going back through the post I am guessing I should start seeing some weight loss and body changes in about 2 weeks or so. Is that correct? I haven't really noticed any body changes yet so I was just rereading through the post. I will be taking my 3rd shot tonight.

correcting low t levels can help with fat loss when diet/exercise is in place...it in itself is not a weight loss med

[NOSUPERMODEL]

correcting low t levels can help with fat loss when diet/exercise is in place...it in itself is not a weight loss med

My diet and exercise are on point. Now I do have my mexican food on Saturday nights, but damn a man has got to live a little. LOL!!!

[NOSUPERMODEL]

Yes, you should be talking about adex/anastrozole with your doc ... Can you refresh me with your current E2 score? Kind of wondering why your doc has you on a SERM like Tamox, are you dealing with gyno related issues or anything else? I wouldn't look at taking Adex on a daily basis at all. 3x/wk (IMO) is the max you need throughout the week. Dosage will depend on current E2 score.

Estradiol 33 Range 13-54 pg/mL

I have always had what I assume is gyno ever since I was a kid. I have always been over weight. I have only done one cycle of PH's about a year and a half ago, but like I said I have always had some kind of lump under my nipples. So I don't know if that is gyno or not. I will talk to him about the Arimidex when I go and see him. So Arimidex is to control estrogen and Tamox is used to control gyno? Because I asked him about my estrogen rising with the testosterone and he said he knew about that and that is why he put me on the Tamoxifen .

[Vettester]

IMO, your E2 is OK. Although everyone has their personal preference, I think 30 is just about the perfect number. So, it would be good to have some Adex on hand, and maybe administer a low maintenance dose to keep you in the sweet spot zone, which say could be 25-to-35, but just run regular labs to keep an eye on it.

Not looking to get you sideways with your doctor, but if he's prescribing you Tamox for E2 control, then he's missing the mark. Tamox is a SERM, E2 control should be administered with aromatization inhibitor such as Anastrozole, aromasin , etc.

[NOSUPERMODEL]

IMO, your E2 is OK. Although everyone has their personal preference, I think 30 is just about the perfect number. So, it would be good to have some Adex on hand, and maybe administer a low maintenance dose to keep you in the sweet spot zone, which say could be 25-to-35, but just run regular labs to keep an eye on it.

Not looking to get you sideways with your doctor, but if he's prescribing you Tamox for E2 control, then he's missing the mark. Tamox is a SERM, E2 control should be administered with aromatization inhibitor such as Anastrozole, aromasin, etc.

No problem at all Vetteman. I will talk to him about. You know sometimes I honestly think you can learn more about stuff like this by coming to a forum just like this one. I have learned so much about this stuff since I started this thread.

The only reason I can guess that he put me on the Tamoxifen is because I asked him to feel my nipple to tell me if he thought it was gyno. Maybe he did it out of prevention? I will definately talk to him about the Arimidex because he was pretty liberal about sending me the prescription for the HCG .

[NOSUPERMODEL]

How much does HCG cost? I just paid $127 for a 20 day supply!!! I asked howuch injectables were and they said thousands. I am going to call the doctor tomorrow but wanted to get some feedback on cost from you guys

[Vettester]

$127 for a 20 day supply, where the shiat did they get that stuff from, Libya? Clinics will start at more than half of that for 60 day supply. 5,000iu is the way I go, I toss the stuff at 45 days anyways.