TRT - Self Administered?

[bass]

You don't need script for donating blood, do some search here for donating blood so you get an idea how to answer the questions and not get rejected.

[kelkel]

GB. Good answers above.

1. Time to get in the routine of giving blood
2. DHEA aspect covered
3. BUN/Creatinine. What did your doc say? Can be muscle breakdown and amino's or even dehydration. Not necessarily kidney issues.
4. T levels are great. Be happy.
5. Prolactin is interesting. How's your libido? Have you ever had an MRI? Did your doc speak about this at all? Stress can raise or if your woman has a fetish for your nips that can raise it as well. Stop playing with them if you are! But, your cortisol level was good if I recall correctly. Caber will bring it down but i'd still want to know why it's up. If you go the caber route I'd suggest no more than .25 x 2 per week as that will stomp it down. There could also other medicine causing this response. I just don't know. If it stays elevated I'd obtain an MRI. It's basically a protein or amino acid strand.
6. SHBG is just fine.

kel

[gbrice75]

GB. Good answers above.

1. Time to get in the routine of giving blood

Meh. lol

3. BUN/Creatinine. What did you doc say? Can be muscle breakdown and amino's or even dehydration. Not necessarily kidney issues.

Haven't actually had my follow up with the doc on these latest labs yet. I just stopped by the office to pick up a copy so I could post it up here ASAP for all of your collective feedback. I sure as fck hope it's not muscle breakdown though!!! Well... actually I DO hope it's muscle breakdown - through training, as long as i'm rebuilding.

4. T levels are great. Be happy.

Very!

5. Prolactin is interesting. How's your libido?

Great question. Since starting TRT, it's been higher. However as of late, it's fallen off again... coinciding with elevated prolactin. Prolactin was fine on my previous lab... as was libido.

Have you ever had an MRI?

Nope

Did your doc speak about this at all?

Not yet - as stated, I haven't met with him yet on these latest labs. Will schedule an appt. ASAP though.

Stress can raise or if your woman has a fetish for your nips that can raise it as well. Stop playing with them if you are!

Lmfao!!! Well I have been under quite a bit of stress lately... can stress really raise it that high!? I'll have to stop playing with my nips to relieve stress, lol!

Caber will bring it down but i'd still want to know why it's up.

ME TOO!!!

If you go the caber route I'd suggest no more than .25 x 2 per week as that will stomp it down. There could also other medicine causing this response. I just don't know. If it stays elevated I'd obtain an MRI. It's basically a protein or amino acid strand.

Thanks for the input. MRI sounds scary... but may be necessary. I'm not taking ANY medications - only test, HCG , and supplements (DHEA, preg, stinging nettles, creatine, vitamins, digestive enzymes, etc).

6. SHBG is just fine.

Glad to hear that!!! Thanks again for your input Kel, much appreciated. Looks like I have some items to address with the doc, particularly prolactin.

[kelkel]

I'm referring to normal breakdown as a result of working out! Not you falling apart!
Also, without going back a page your cortisol is good I believe possibly ruling out stress.
Don't know if stress can elevate it that high. hence the mri statement. MRI's are cake. No issues doing it.
Give the wife her tassles back.

[gbrice75]

I'm referring to normal breakdown as a result of working out! Not you falling apart!
Also, without going back a page your cortisol is good I believe possibly ruling out stress.
Don't know if stress can elevate it that high. hence the mri statement. MRI's are cake. No issues doing it.
Give the wife her tassles back.

lol, thanks for the reassurance Kel! I'll definitely look into having the MRI done. Since I never have, and approaching 40, it certainly can't hurt.

[bass]

hey GB, here is a good place to learn about thyroid,

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

[MickeyKnox]

Hey Brice!

Im learning along with you bro! Your bloods look pretty good (test is great!), but as the Vets have indicated, a couple that raised eyebrows - re: Prolactin

Wish i could provide more help, other than encourage and support you through this.

[Vettester]

G, sorry for limping in on this so late. New business has a lot of my attention these days, but hoping to get back into the groove here a little more over the holidays.

With that said, Bass and Kel covered just about everything that needs addressed. I agree with the MRI option. The TSH score by itself might not flag me, but when I see the prolactin and TSH where they're at, it IMO warrants further investigation to rule out any existing pituitary conditions that you might not be aware of. Another lab that could be thrown in the mix with this is your ACTH lab. IMO, your cortisol level is leaning on the low end, which in theory could mean that your ACTH is on the elevated side. If so, that would just be another reason for your physician to look further into the reason(s) for the anterior lobe pituitary hyperactivity.

On the DHEA, look into the micronized form, or better yet, I always suggest the topical creams if your doctor/clinic offers them.

G, definitely read that link that Bass posted on Stop the Thyroid Madness. It will open your eyes to a lot of variables associated with the thyroid and panels thereof. I strongly recommend everyone also pays attention to the iron and ferritin labs, as many people (like myself) are carriers for hemochromatosis and don't even know it. I have hypothryroidism, and obviously I am hypogonadal, which was diagnosed at/around 40yo. Why? Not sure, but I suspect the hemochromatosis genetic issue played a part. If it's a factor, it can easily be managed by donating blood every couple of months.

[gbrice75]

hey GB, here is a good place to learn about thyroid,

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/

Thanks brother!!

Hey Brice!

Im learning along with you bro! Your bloods look pretty good (test is great!), but as the Vets have indicated, a couple that raised eyebrows - re: Prolactin

Wish i could provide more help, other than encourage and support you through this.

Hey, i'll take all the encouragement and support I can get. Thx MK!!

G, sorry for limping in on this so late. New business has a lot of my attention these days, but hoping to get back into the groove here a little more over the holidays.

No worries man. Life has to come first. I'm not around the board nearly as much these days as I used to be either. Priorities have to take priority.

With that said, Bass and Kel covered just about everything that needs addressed. I agree with the MRI option. The TSH score by itself might not flag me, but when I see the prolactin and TSH where they're at, it IMO warrants further investigation to rule out any existing pituitary conditions that you might not be aware of. Another lab that could be thrown in the mix with this is your ACTH lab. IMO, your cortisol level is leaning on the low end, which in theory could mean that your ACTH is on the elevated side. If so, that would just be another reason for your physician to look further into the reason(s) for the anterior lobe pituitary hyperactivity.

Not familiar with ACTH, but I'll be researching it now that you've brought it up. I will definitely talk to my doc about the MRI option, and if he feels it's unwarranted, i'll bring it to my primary care doc for a 2nd opinion. Still on the hunt for a proper endo and/or urologist.

On the DHEA, look into the micronized form, or better yet, I always suggest the topical creams if your doctor/clinic offers them.

My current DHEA (and Preg) is micronized, from MRM - but idk how 'potent' it is. No problem trying a product from a different (vouched for) company. Not sure if I wanna rub DHEA cream on me then play with my 14 month old though!

G, definitely read that link that Bass posted on Stop the Thyroid Madness. It will open your eyes to a lot of variables associated with the thyroid and panels thereof. I strongly recommend everyone also pays attention to the iron and ferritin labs, as many people (like myself) are carriers for hemochromatosis and don't even know it. I have hypothryroidism, and obviously I am hypogonadal, which was diagnosed at/around 40yo. Why? Not sure, but I suspect the hemochromatosis genetic issue played a part. If it's a factor, it can easily be managed by donating blood every couple of months.

Thanks for your input Vette. Re: prolactin being high - this isn't the first time it's come back as high on a lab. I am starting to wonder if elevated prolactin is actually what's responsible for my low T to begin with. I've been reading up on it and low T is one of the symptoms of elevated prolactin in men. It's now a matter of finding out WHY it's elevated. Who knows, if we can nip that problem in the bud (and assuming it is in fact responsible for my low T), I may be able to get off TRT and be 'normal'! Interestingly enough, I have no nipple soreness/tenderness etc. often associated with elevated prolactin. *shrug*

[bass]

you know this is a great thread for all beginners to read, it is complete and very educational!

[gbrice75]

you know this is a great thread for all beginners to read, it is complete and very educational!

Agreed! Tis' the reason that I post whore new posts only to link back to this thread when I update it!

[gbrice75]

Just got my DHEA from LEF, Preg is on backorder. Are you guys sure their stuff is micronized? Doesn't seem to indicate that anywhere on the bottle, whereas the stuff from the last manufacturer (MRM) did. Just curious.

[gbrice75]

Bump!!

So I'm meeting with a new/different doctor this Friday. This one's an endo, so i'm hoping that he knows a bit more than the doc who i'm currently seeing (he's a DO). What I DO need to be certain of is that he'll continue my current protocol, i.e. test injections (vs. transdermals, etc), HCG , and Adex. I'll be bringing my most recent labs (posted here previously) for review.

Off topic for a minute - my current doc always wants me to schedule my appts. with him prior to injection day. Seeing as cypionate is a long acting ester, i'm curious as to why it would matter? Would there really be any appreciable difference in labs if I were to go right before vs. right after an injection?

[MickeyKnox]

Hey GB, i hope there light at the end of the tunnel with your new Doc!

Re: Appts. - Does this have anything to do with bloods? Trough? Im not i sure i understand the reasoning either.

[gbrice75]

Hey GB, i hope there light at the end of the tunnel with your new Doc!

Re: Appts. - Does this have anything to do with bloods? Trough? Im not i sure i understand the reasoning either.

Thank MK. Hoping others will chime in re: injection time and how it relates (or doesn't) to when blood is drawn for labs.

[kelkel]

Most doc's are hooked on trough levels which is why they want BW prior to injection. An astute doc would be able to interpret your results no matter when your injection/BW was done. If you pulled blood 2-3 days after injection you'd be at peak levels which may actually scare your doc into lowering you dosage.

You doing once a week or twice GB?

[gbrice75]

Most doc's are hooked on trough levels which is why they want BW prior to injection. An astute doc would be able to interpret your results no matter when your injection/BW was done. If you pulled blood 2-3 days after injection you'd be at peak levels which may actually scare your doc into lowering you dosage.

You doing once a week or twice GB?

This current doc isn't too astute with regards to TRT. I'm doing twice a week, every 3.5 days.

[kelkel]

So your never really off peak!

[gbrice75]

So your never really off peak!

Guess not lol. Not a bad thing, right!?

[kelkel]

That would be my goal as well.

A goal is S-M-A-R-T: Specific-Measurable-Attainable-Realistic-Time Framed!

[gbrice75]

That would be my goal as well.

A goal is S-M-A-R-T: Specific-Measurable-Attainable-Realistic-Time Framed!

Guess i'm on the right track then!?

I'll update with how it goes with the new doc tomorrow.

[gbrice75]

So I had my appt. with an endo. I'M SOO disappointed!! It went horribly. First, the guy had such a thick accent I had to ask him to repeat himself several times. Second, he was another 'old timer' and clearly wasn't even aware of current TRT protocols.

The positives: As an endo, he was more interested in getting to the root cause of my low T (i.e. primary/secondary hypogonadal, etc) versus simply treating it. Basically he wanted to find out whether the problem was with my testicles, or pituitary, and then come up with a plan from there. My current doc (not an endo) failed to do this. My 'diagnosis' was simply 'low T'.

The negatives: He was completely thrown off by my current protocol. He said that 'we' (endo's) don't do this (my protocol) at all. He wasn't keen on injections, stating that they cause too many 'peaks and dips' in blood levels. Despite me explaining I inject every 3.5 days to offset this, he proceeded to tell me that injections should ideally be done once every 2 weeks. I was ready to walk out at that point.

He then told me that my HCG protocol was a joke. Honestly, I don't even think he understood why I was using it (to maintain testicular normality, fertility, etc). He told me I was trying to put out a fire by spitting on it.

Ultimately, he wants me to come off TRT for a few weeks, then go for blood work. He wants to see how low/high my T is naturally, basically starting over. Depending on what he sees, he might have me get an MRI. I'm definitely not opposed to that considering my recent (and seemingly ongoing) elevated prolactin. He'd ultimately like to see if he can keep me off TRT and get things working efficiently enough on their own. I don't want to do this for obvious reasons... I don't want to feel like crap for weeks on end, etc. Having said that, if my body can work efficiently enough to get off TRT, i'd LOVE that option. It's a pain in the ass (NO, not a pun - I pin my quads exclusively!) between injections, Dr visits, labs, blood donating, etc. For life. I'm 37. Life is (hopefully) a long time!

So here I am again, at a crossroad. I'm definitely not going back to this guy, but now I'm left a bit paranoid about what I'm potentially doing to my body (HPTA specifically) where the problem may not be too severe to begin with. I just don't know anymore. I've pretty much exhausted endo's in my area. My last shot is to find a urologist with a clue. Ugh!

[Vettester]

Oh my!! Sounds like you crossed paths with a real quack!! The best thing you stated out of that whole post was, "I'm definitely not going back to this guy". That's the best move you could do.

As I see it, you're on TRT because your HPTA probably isn't functioning properly already, and/or your testicles (primary) were not functioning and producing testosterone efficiently. However, if the HCG was working, then it's pretty safe to say you had a secondary condition you first started. At this stage, if you run all the labs, your HPTA is going to show suppression regardless if you were primary or secondary.

Presuming you were put on TRT due to low T to begin with. It might not hurt to get an MRI since nobody ever ruled out a tumor, or even confirmed your diagnosis, but if the worse thing is that you need TRT for life, then there's no harm with just replenishing your body with a balanced amount of testosterone, which you would be naturally producing if everything worked accordingly.

And the comment your endo made about HCG (spitting on a fire), just shows what his value is. He is worthless, plain and simple! I don't have a problem that some of these guys don't like injection steroids and other compounds to treat men, that's their prerogative. However, the issue is that they just make up propaganda without any facts. E.g., your endo stating that "ideally" injections should be done every 2 weeks. Here he is lecturing you about peaks and valleys, yet he knows nothing about half-life and what 14 days will do to a patient. In response, dealing with endos like this one is more like throwing grease into the fire. He (and others like him) are more detrimental to a patient than anything else! It's sad to know that we have new members on this forum with less than a week of educating, who basically know more about HRT than a doctor with a lifetime of experience.

[gbrice75]

Oh my!! Sounds like you crossed paths with a real quack!! The best thing you stated out of that whole post was, "I'm definitely not going back to this guy". That's the best move you could do.

Thanks for the reassurance!

As I see it, you're on TRT because your HPTA probably isn't functioning properly already, and/or your testicles (primary) were not functioning and producing testosterone efficiently. However, if the HCG was working, then it's pretty safe to say you had a secondary condition you first started. At this stage, if you run all the labs, your HPTA is going to show suppression regardless if you were primary or secondary.

When you say "if the HCG is working" - with regards to what specifically? As far as I can tell, I have no way to know if they're producing endogenous test. I can happily say that I don't believe there has been any shrinkage, and there is definitely no pain. I am also awaiting semen analysis results, and hoping to see good quality sperm with a healthy count.

What would be an example of a secondary condition? I assume primary would be either a problem with the testicles themselves, or the pituitary. Would secondary be the result of an injury for instance?

Presuming you were put on TRT due to low T to begin with. It might not hurt to get an MRI since nobody ever ruled out a tumor, or even confirmed your diagnosis, but if the worse thing is that you need TRT for life, then there's no harm with just replenishing your body with a balanced amount of testosterone, which you would be naturally producing if everything worked accordingly.

I just get freaked out once in a while... like... what might be the long term effects of total HPTA suppression... what might be the long term effects of producing absolutely no FSH or LH, etc.

And the comment your endo made about HCG (spitting on a fire), just shows what his value is. He is worthless, plain and simple! I don't have a problem that some of these guys don't like injection steroids and other compounds to treat men, that's their prerogative. However, the issue is that they just make up propaganda without any facts. E.g., your endo stating that "ideally" injections should be done every 2 weeks. Here he is lecturing you about peaks and valleys, yet he knows nothing about half-life and what 14 days will do to a patient. In response, dealing with endos like this one is more like throwing grease into the fire. He (and others like him) are more detrimental to a patient than anything else! It's sad to know that we have new members on this forum with less than a week of educating, who basically know more about HRT than a doctor with a lifetime of experience.

Well said brother. Don't get me wrong - I am EXTREMELY glad to have guys like you, Kel, GD, etc. available for consultation like this. But it is a shame that I/we have to go to the doc first and THEN come to a steroid board to get the real scoop from relative strangers.

For now... fingers crossed for the semen analysis results. If sperm count is low and/or motility abnormal (both were in a healthy range when I last had a test done about 2 years ago), I'll have no choice but to come off TRT, run an aggressive PCT and try to get the boys up to par as my wife and I would like to have another baby ASAP!

[Vettester]

Thanks for the reassurance!



When you say "if the HCG is working" - with regards to what specifically? As far as I can tell, I have no way to know if they're producing endogenous test. I can happily say that I don't believe there has been any shrinkage, and there is definitely no pain. I am also awaiting semen analysis results, and hoping to see good quality sperm with a healthy count. In my case, I definitely noticed a difference when I started taking HCG. Not only did my testicles increase in size, but the ejaculation volume went through the ceiling (literally). My left testicle is super sensitive to being suppressed, and it will act up if I miss a shot of HCG, or if my HCG starts to lose it's potency (seen that start at/around 48 to 50 days). Everyone is different, but if HCG is effective, you should notice some improvements, as listed above, or you should notice it going the other way if you stop taking HCG

What would be an example of a secondary condition? I assume primary would be either a problem with the testicles themselves, or the pituitary. Would secondary be the result of an injury for instance? Secondary can occur due to many reasons (tumors, substance use, thyroid conditions, etc), including no reason at all, but just getting older. The getting older part is also known as Andropause; basically mimicking a similar process that women see with menopause. It's just nature's way of telling us that we have passed our peak years for procreation, and we are no longer the competitive young guys trying to make a name in the tribe. YES, primary would indicate a problem with the testicles, leydig cell issues, tumors, other pathologies ... We normally see members having elevated LH/FSH levels and low test serum when there's a testicular (primary) condition.



I just get freaked out once in a while... like... what might be the long term effects of total HPTA suppression... what might be the long term effects of producing absolutely no FSH or LH, etc. There is really no negative prognosis associated with long-term HPTA suppression, except that the natural course of testosterone/sperm will be effected due to no or little LH/FSH being produced, and functioning via the negative feedback loop channel with the testicles. The anterior pituitary could also be experiencing other issues with synthesizing hormones like TSH, ACTH, Prolactin, and of course GnRH; leading to LH/FSH. So, it's imperative to run complete and comprehensive assays for comparative reviews, and to include MRI's to rule out tumors and other diseases.



Well said brother. Don't get me wrong - I am EXTREMELY glad to have guys like you, Kel, GD, etc. available for consultation like this. But it is a shame that I/we have to go to the doc first and THEN come to a steroid board to get the real scoop from relative strangers.

For now... fingers crossed for the semen analysis results. If sperm count is low and/or motility abnormal (both were in a healthy range when I last had a test done about 2 years ago), I'll have no choice but to come off TRT, run an aggressive PCT and try to get the boys up to par as my wife and I would like to have another baby ASAP!


GB, since HCG provides the LH analogue, you will probably see "less than satisfactory" results with your sperm analysis and motility labs. FSH is the primary hormone and signal to trigger spermatogenesis. Save yourself the hassle of coming off TRT to achieve this. Your reason to do this would be to apply a PCT, like Clomid, which would stimulate both LH & FSH production, correct? Well, then just add HMG to protocol, very similar to HCG, but with HMG you will get both the LH and the FSH analogs! I would advise seeking out a fertility physician that is familiar with this treatment. Again, the sertoli cells respond to FSH, as do the leydigs to LH. It doesn't matter how they get these hormones, just as long as they get them. You can come off of TRT and try to naturally provide these cells the needed hormones to function, or you can stay on TRT and guarantee that both LH and FSH will be sent to them. The only variable is, how healthy and functional are the testicles? Only BW can tell the truth on that one ... So to conclude, you actually do have a choice in the matter. For me, the choice is obvious, WHY come off of TRT when science has made it possible for you to have the best of all worlds? Food for thought.

GB, responses in bolds

[gbrice75]

GB, responses in bolds

Wow Vette, thanks for all of the detail - and I clearly have a lot to think about. I was under the impression that since we use HCG to maintain regular testicular function (including spermatogenesis), semen analysis labs should come back relatively 'normal'. It upsets me to read anything to the contrary... but we'll just have to see. I do know 3 guys (all members of this board) who are all on TRT and cycle regularly, but all managed to knock up their respective ladies. That does give me some light at the end of the tunnel.

I have looked into HMG, actually before starting TRT.. but as you probably know, it's EXTREMELY expensive. If I recall, a single shot is upwards of $30. From what I've read, it's basically equal parts FSH/LH. I'm actually wondering if introducing Clomid while still on TRT would have any effect?

[FONZY007]

Wow Vette, thanks for all of the detail - and I clearly have a lot to think about. I was under the impression that since we use HCG to maintain regular testicular function (including spermatogenesis), semen analysis labs should come back relatively 'normal'. It upsets me to read anything to the contrary... but we'll just have to see. I do know 3 guys (all members of this board) who are all on TRT and cycle regularly, but all managed to knock up their respective ladies. That does give me some light at the end of the tunnel.

I have looked into HMG, actually before starting TRT.. but as you probably know, it's EXTREMELY expensive. If I recall, a single shot is upwards of $30. From what I've read, it's basically equal parts FSH/LH. I'm actually wondering if introducing Clomid while still on TRT would have any effect?

GB I came off trt and had a babygirl successfully.. I did a pct with clomid and HCG, before I was out of the PCT she was pregnant!! I waited till she was past her first trimester and jumped back on my trt

[gbrice75]

GB I came off trt and had a babygirl successfully.. I did a pct with clomid and HCG, before I was out of the PCT she was pregnant!! I waited till she was past her first trimester and jumped back on my trt

Very nice bro, congrats! Did you come off because you were unsuccessful conceiving for some time while on, or did you just come off in an effort to better your chances right off the bat? If the former, how long did you try before coming off?

[kelkel]

Just getting caught up on your thread GB. Damn, another wack job doc who doesn't understand hormones and expects to be able to blow smoke up the patients ars. Reminds me of my endo, Clueless and subsequently fired!

Great advice from Vette!

[FONZY007]

Very nice bro, congrats! Did you come off because you were unsuccessful conceiving for some time while on, or did you just come off in an effort to better your chances right off the bat? If the former, how long did you try before coming off?

Sorry didn't know you responded, just got off right off the bat.. And like less than 2 months she was pregnant

[gbrice75]

Just getting caught up on your thread GB. Damn, another wack job doc who doesn't understand hormones and expects to be able to blow smoke up the patients ars. Reminds me of my endo, Clueless and subsequently fired!

Great advice from Vette!

Agreed Kel. And so the search continues...

Sorry didn't know you responded, just got off right off the bat.. And like less than 2 months she was pregnant

Awesome!! Did you say you we're using clomid? At what dosage? Anything else?

[FONZY007]

Agreed Kel. And so the search continues...

Awesome!! Did you say you we're using clomid? At what dosage? Anything else?

Yea clomid at 50mgs and nolvedex at 40mgs

[gbrice75]

Yea clomid at 50mgs and nolvedex at 40mgs

Good to know bro!!

[gbrice75]

New labs!!

Giving everything I believe is important - as always, let me know if there's anything not listed that you'd like to see:

WBC - 8.6 x10E3/uL (4.0-10.5)
RBC - 5.81 x10E6/uL (4.14-5.80) HIGH
Hemoglobin - 17.6 g/dL (12.6-17.7)
Hematocrit - 49.9 % (37.5-51.0)

BUN - 23 mg/dL (6-20) HIGH - is this a concern??

Testosterone, Serum - 1251 ng/dL (348-1197) HIGH
Free Testosterone (Direct) 39.3 pg/mL (8.7-25.1) HIGH

T4, Free (direct) 1.13 ng/dL (0.82-1.77)

Cortisol - 4.3 ug/dL (2.3-19.4) I know elevated cortisol is no good, but isn't this a bit TOO low??

DHEA, Serum - 82 ng/dL (31-701) This pisses me off as I've been supplementing DHEA (50mg/day) for months now and it never seems to rise. WTF!!

TSH - 3.050 uIU/mL (0.450-4.500)

Prolactin - 15.9 ng/mL (4.0-15.2) HIGH - again, pisses me off because I don't know why. Been supp'ing B6 (actually B Complex but plenty of 6) to try and bring this down.

Estradiol - 28.9 pg/mL (7.6-42.6)

Vitamin D, 24-Hydroxy 60.5 ng/mL (30.0-100.0)

Thyroxine (T4) 6.9 ug/dL (4.5-12.0)

Triiodothyronine (T3) 119 ng/dL (71-180)

Triiodothyronine, Free, Serum 3.2 pg/mL (2.0-4.4)

SHGB, Serum 33.9 nmol/L (16.5-55.9)

Please let me know what you think guys. This is my 2nd lab where prolactin is elevated and I have NO IDEA why that would be. E2 looks good... should I look into getting an MRI at this point? Does anybody know the general cost for one? I have an odd insurance plan and need to do my due diligence with this stuff.

[gbrice75]

Bump! C'mon fellas. Help ol' GB out here... u know this isn't my comfort zone!

[Vettester]

G, it's normal for the RBC's to be on the climb with TRT. Just get into the mode of donating blood every couple of months. That will keep you in check.

Don't sweat too much on the BUN test. It can be related to hydration, protein, workout related ... At 23mg, I wouldn't get too excited.

Your testosterone is up probably due to your protocol. When did you take labs in relation to your injection? Your free test is in suit with your total test, sitting at the 3.1%. That tells me your SHBG is probably relatively low. Nothing wrong with that, as mine and others is low. I think you started on Vitamin D as well, which will help lower SHBG, thus increasing your free testosterone. 2% to 3% IMO is where most guys should be, and if you're a little over then so be it. Mine has been around 3.3% on the last few. So, essentially, you don't really need as much medication as the guy with 2% free testosterone to achieve comparable results.

Have you taken any of the Nor 19 compounds lately? (Deca , tren )? They will obviously contribute to an increase of prolactin. Have you administered any dopamine agonist medications in the past, e.g., caber, prami, for managing the prolactin. I'd never say no to a good MRI. If you haven't had one, then it won't hurt to have a physician review it with you.

[gbrice75]

G, it's normal for the RBC's to be on the climb with TRT. Just get into the mode of donating blood every couple of months. That will keep you in check.

I remember somebody recently mentioned an article or sticky or something, re: donating blood and how to answer the questions so there are no issues. Do you know what i'm referring to? If so, can you point me to it?

Don't sweat too much on the BUN test. It can be related to hydration, protein, workout related ... At 23mg, I wouldn't get too excited.

Good deal. Probably hydration... or lack thereof. I admittedly NEVER drink enough water... one of my biggest issues.

Your testosterone is up probably due to your protocol. When did you take labs in relation to your injection? Your free test is in suit with your total test, sitting at the 3.1%. That tells me your SHBG is probably relatively low. Nothing wrong with that, as mine and others is low. I think you started on Vitamin D as well, which will help lower SHBG, thus increasing your free testosterone. 2% to 3% IMO is where most guys should be, and if you're a little over then so be it. Mine has been around 3.3% on the last few. So, essentially, you don't really need as much medication as the guy with 2% free testosterone to achieve comparable results.

I'm really happy with the free... I could do with the total being lower, but like you said, lowering my dosage should help with that. Blood was drawn for this lab around 4pm on a Friday - my last shot prior to that was about 6pm Wednesday, so roughly 48 hours between.

Yes, I've been supplementing D3 to lower SHBG (it was at the high end of the range when I started TRT, so i'm really happy with it right now)... stinging nettles as well although I recently ran out.

Have you taken any of the Nor 19 compounds lately? (Deca, tren)? They will obviously contribute to an increase of prolactin. Have you administered any dopamine agonist medications in the past, e.g., caber, prami, for managing the prolactin. I'd never say no to a good MRI. If you haven't had one, then it won't hurt to have a physician review it with you.

Nope, no 19 Nor compounds whatsoever. Nothing except my TRT protocol. I'm definitely going to make an appt. with my PC and talk about an MRI. The problem is he admittedly doesn't understand the endocrine system and is going to refer me to an endo... which I've had zero success finding a good one as of yet. AHHHH!!!

Thanks for your feedback as always Vette.

[gbrice75]

Update - appt. to give blood this Sunday!! Also started adex to see if that brings down prolactin (indirectly) levels. Next labs will tell. .25mg every 3.5 days, so very little to start.

[kelkel]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9619713

Personally I don't think you'll get much out of adex for prolactin control, even though estrogen and prolactin basically oppose each other. Meaning when one elevates the other suppresses. Minimal at best IMHO.

Why not go straight to caber instead of the end run above. Caber a .25 twice per week will crush your prolactin level.

Refresh me. Are you on thyroid meds?

[gbrice75]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9619713

Personally I don't think you'll get much out of adex for prolactin control, even though estrogen and prolactin basically oppose each other. Meaning when one elevates the other suppresses. Minimal at best IMHO.

Interesting... I've read the exact opposite - that elevated E2 can lead to 'prog like' sides, including elevated prolactin. I've never heard that they oppose each other. Not debating you, just stating that. Very interesting... and disheartening. I thought that lowering E2 may in turn lower PRL... this study points out the exact opposite - or no change at all, best case scenario.

Why not go straight to caber instead of the end run above. Caber a .25 twice per week will crush your prolactin level.

Refresh me. Are you on thyroid meds?

No thyroid meds at all. Re: not running caber - it's not that i'm opposed to it specifically, but I was hoping to deal with these issues with as few drugs as possible, and since I probably need low dose AI anyway, I thought I'd kill 2 birds...