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Thread: 6 week labs, this is extremely discouraging

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    Rodax is offline Associate Member
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    6 week labs, this is extremely discouraging

    So, currently on:

    150mg Test Cyp /week
    500IU HCG 2x week
    .25mg anastrozole 1x week

    So just on Clomid alone back in November my levels were:

    Testosterone , Serum 785 ng/dL 348 - 1197 range
    Free Testosterone(Direct) 23.0 pg/mL 8.7 - 25.1 range
    Estradiol, Sensitive 36 pg/mL 3 - 70 range

    Now on the current protocol:

    Testosterone, Serum 421 ng/dL 348 - 1197 range
    Free Testosterone(Direct) 15.9 pg/mL 8.7 - 25.1 range
    Estradiol, Sensitive 17 pg/mL 3 - 70 range

    What is going on? Seriously considering just going back on the Clomid my Endo had me on at this stage.

  2. #2
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    bass is offline HRT Specialist ~ Knowledgeable Member
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    that does not sound right. my question to you is if clomid was putting you at those ranges why did you switch to TRT? for me I do 140 ew and my levels are almost identical with your clomid results. when was your blood collected in relation to your next shot? you may want to try splitting that dose to twice a week, you may get much better results, also will help with E2 management.

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    Rodax is offline Associate Member
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    With the lab my endo was going through, my levels were coming back in the 600s. And I've never seen steady clomid use studies go beyond 3 years. I'm already injecting the test twice a week. And I had the test the day of my injection, I injected after I got home - usually time them to every 3.5 days

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    Interesting. On 150mg I'm almost 1100.

    Personally, I'd cut out the ai. Try without. Your e2 is dipping pretty low it appears.

    How do you FEEL on this protocol?

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    I mean i feel ok. the only concern i have about cutting the AI is that my nips have been kinda sensitive for the past few weeks.

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    Docd187123 is offline Banned
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    Some possible explanations for this:

    1) you did bloods just prior to your injection so this result is likely a trough for you not a peak.

    2) you are injecting twice a week which will automatically lower your peak levels but also raise your trough levels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hawk14dl View Post
    Interesting. On 150mg I'm almost 1100.

    Personally, I'd cut out the ai. Try without. Your e2 is dipping pretty low it appears.

    How do you FEEL on this protocol?
    no his e2 is a tad high or just right depending how he feels. but definitely not low!

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    oops! was looking at the wrong number. Rodax you are correct!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Docd187123 View Post
    Some possible explanations for this:

    1) you did bloods just prior to your injection so this result is likely a trough for you not a peak.

    2) you are injecting twice a week which will automatically lower your peak levels but also raise your trough levels.
    I mean yeah it probably is a trough, but I they said over the phone for me to go then.

    Is there a way to reduce the trough? I feel like injecting more often would be a bit fruitless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodax View Post
    I mean yeah it probably is a trough, but I they said over the phone for me to go then.

    Is there a way to reduce the trough? I feel like injecting more often would be a bit fruitless.
    The most important thing here, more important than the actual test levels, is how do you feel with the current protocol? Do you feel good and simply want higher or similar numbers to clomid or do you actually feel physiological issues with your levels where they're at?

    When were on clomid, what was the protocol and when did you get tested in relation to taking the dose of clomid?

    If you want to get a peak value, do your blood test around 48hours after an inject.

    To reduce the trough you could increase injection frequency which will also lower your peak, you could increase the dose of test as advised by the doctor, or you could pin your HCG the day before your next test inject.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodax
    I mean i feel ok. the only concern i have about cutting the AI is that my nips have been kinda sensitive for the past few weeks.
    Sensitive nips does not mean gyno.
    There is no way you will develop gyno at E2 of 17.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodax
    With the lab my endo was going through, my levels were coming back in the 600s. And I've never seen steady clomid use studies go beyond 3 years. I'm already injecting the test twice a week. And I had the test the day of my injection, I injected after I got home - usually time them to every 3.5 days
    Are you doing the shots yourself?
    How much test are you drawing into the syringe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Deadlifting Dog View Post

    Are you doing the shots yourself?
    How much test are you drawing into the syringe?
    Yeah all by myself lol .375ml/.38ml each dose.

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    Your free test is almost midrange. Who cares what your total test is. 150mg gave me about the same numbers. 200mg gets me slightly above midrange. I wish I was one of those people who need only 100mg to get to the top of the range but unfortunately it is not in the cards for me.....or you.

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    I still believe, you're only taking adex .25 1x a wk. . And your e2 is at 17.. drop the adex, your e2 will likely rise to the mid-high 20s maybe low 30s and you'll likely be fine.

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    why be discouraged if this is only your 6 week bw? getting properly dialed in on trt takes time...im at the 6 month mark and i think im either really close or just perfect after several adjustments. be patient, make small adjustments and it will happen.
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    There shouldn't be a significant difference between your peak and trough values on an e3.5d protocol. So if you're barely breaking into the reference range 3.5 days after injection, don't expect your peak TT to be a number that most would be happy with.

    There is definitely some room for improvement in your free T value as well.

    You seem to be one of the rare few who under respond to testosterone . I'm not educated enough to know why this would happen, but the numbers don't lie.

    If I were you I'd be considering an increase in your dose of testosterone.

    What's the concentration on your vial? I don't mean to insult you, but are you sure that it's 200mg/ml and not 100mg/ml? That would be an easy way to fix this!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chauffeur View Post
    There shouldn't be a significant difference between your peak and trough values on an e3.5d protocol. So if you're barely breaking into the reference range 3.5 days after injection, don't expect your peak TT to be a number that most would be happy with.

    There is definitely some room for improvement in your free T value as well.

    You seem to be one of the rare few who under respond to testosterone . I'm not educated enough to know why this would happen, but the numbers don't lie.

    If I were you I'd be considering an increase in your dose of testosterone.

    What's the concentration on your vial? I don't mean to insult you, but are you sure that it's 200mg/ml and not 100mg/ml? That would be an easy way to fix this!
    Just checked, yeah it's 200mg/ml I just didn't think it would be longer than 6 weeks or so to get dialed in. With clomid I felt great after about 2 weeks and my e2 only got up into the 30s and the levels have been in the 600 range since I started it. I mean I definitely feel the effects of injections, strength and erection frequency increases, annoyingly I started growing hair on the upper back/ shoulders, slight acne spots on back (which is manageable with cetaphil) and appetite has gone up too. Heck I've actually put on weight. But I'm just thrown by the numbers and not sure what to think.

    To answer a previous question, I was taking clomid every day at 50mg. Usually with my thyroid med right before breakfast. The only thing I'm doing differently now is injecting myself with test in the morning on my dose days because it's supposed to peak in 24hrs and HCG in the afternoon around 4pm bc it peaks about 12hrs after injection. I try to time them to my sleep cycle so that I'm not caught in some weird insomnia.

    I will say that the day before the test, my complex caught fire and i had to leave my place for 3 days bc of power loss (forgot to grab hcg out of the fridge before i bolted out of my apt). I lost my vial of hcg bc of that but I was luckily able to get that refilled. And only skipped that dose of hcg that i was due for after my lab test. Would that kind of stress cause my results to be that far off? Should I ask my dr for another blood test? Kind of baffled right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodax View Post
    Just checked, yeah it's 200mg/ml I just didn't think it would be longer than 6 weeks or so to get dialed in. With clomid I felt great after about 2 weeks and my e2 only got up into the 30s and the levels have been in the 600 range since I started it. I mean I definitely feel the effects of injections, strength and erection frequency increases, annoyingly I started growing hair on the upper back/ shoulders, slight acne spots on back (which is manageable with cetaphil) and appetite has gone up too. Heck I've actually put on weight. But I'm just thrown by the numbers and not sure what to think.

    To answer a previous question, I was taking clomid every day at 50mg. Usually with my thyroid med right before breakfast. The only thing I'm doing differently now is injecting myself with test in the morning on my dose days because it's supposed to peak in 24hrs and HCG in the afternoon around 4pm bc it peaks about 12hrs after injection. I try to time them to my sleep cycle so that I'm not caught in some weird insomnia.

    I will say that the day before the test, my complex caught fire and i had to leave my place for 3 days bc of power loss (forgot to grab hcg out of the fridge before i bolted out of my apt). I lost my vial of hcg bc of that but I was luckily able to get that refilled. And only skipped that dose of hcg that i was due for after my lab test. Would that kind of stress cause my results to be that far off? Should I ask my dr for another blood test? Kind of baffled right now.
    According to Dr. Scally, test e and cyp will peak closer to 48hrs not 24. I don't think the stress you experienced would have affected your results while on TRY. Natural production possibly, but not synthetic test you are injecting. You may likely just require a higher dose

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    Quote Originally Posted by Docd187123 View Post

    According to Dr. Scally, test e and cyp will peak closer to 48hrs not 24. I don't think the stress you experienced would have affected your results while on TRY. Natural production possibly, but not synthetic test you are injecting. You may likely just require a higher dose
    Great...

  21. #21
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    Takes a lot longer than 6 weeks to dial in. Think 6-12 months.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BallSak View Post
    Takes a lot longer than 6 weeks to dial in. Think 6-12 months.
    Yeah well, just spoke to my dr and they are having me up my dose from 150mg week to 200mg a week. We'll see how that goes in 2 months I guess?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodax View Post
    Yeah well, just spoke to my dr and they are having me up my dose from 150mg week to 200mg a week. We'll see how that goes in 2 months I guess?
    Seems like your doctor is open to working with you and not stick to standard protocol. I'd enjoy that since many patients don't have the same luxury. Just give it time to be dialed in correctly for you

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodax View Post
    Yeah well, just spoke to my dr and they are having me up my dose from 150mg week to 200mg a week. We'll see how that goes in 2 months I guess?
    Good! Remember that how you feel is what is important, not always just the numbers. It takes several months to feel the effects of TRT.

  25. #25
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    Stress and lack of sleep can definitely affect your levels.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodax View Post
    Just checked, yeah it's 200mg/ml I just didn't think it would be longer than 6 weeks or so to get dialed in. With clomid I felt great after about 2 weeks and my e2 only got up into the 30s and the levels have been in the 600 range since I started it. I mean I definitely feel the effects of injections, strength and erection frequency increases, annoyingly I started growing hair on the upper back/ shoulders, slight acne spots on back (which is manageable with cetaphil) and appetite has gone up too. Heck I've actually put on weight. But I'm just thrown by the numbers and not sure what to think.

    To answer a previous question, I was taking clomid every day at 50mg. Usually with my thyroid med right before breakfast. The only thing I'm doing differently now is injecting myself with test in the morning on my dose days because it's supposed to peak in 24hrs and HCG in the afternoon around 4pm bc it peaks about 12hrs after injection. I try to time them to my sleep cycle so that I'm not caught in some weird insomnia.

    I will say that the day before the test, my complex caught fire and i had to leave my place for 3 days bc of power loss (forgot to grab hcg out of the fridge before i bolted out of my apt). I lost my vial of hcg bc of that but I was luckily able to get that refilled. And only skipped that dose of hcg that i was due for after my lab test. Would that kind of stress cause my results to be that far off? Should I ask my dr for another blood test? Kind of baffled right now.
    As others have said, it can take months to get dialed in. Strength and erection frequency increases are good! Don't fret over the numbers.

    If you are injecting Testosterone once a week, you might be better off injecting hCG two days before and one day before the Testosterone. The idea is that the hCG will boost your Testosterone a bit through the trough.

    If injecting twice weekly or daily, I like hCG daily because I'm sensitive to E2.

    In my case, TRT greatly improved my sleep patterns. Would be happy to take it just for that.

    Generally, how TRT works is that one starts at a particular dose, blood work is taken 8 or so weeks later, the dose is adjusted, and we try again. There is no correct dose for everyone, so you see it can take a long time to get dialed in.

    Considering Dr. Crisler and Dr. Gordon start their patients out at 70mg and 60mg Testosterone (respectively) weekly, your doctor is throwing some big doses around.
    Last edited by OingoBoingo; 01-22-2015 at 12:15 AM.

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    Well when I spoke to my Dr earlier today, they said that I might not be as responsive as most people. But I think they said that the max they go to is like 300mg/week and this time they just jumped it up by 50mg from 150 to 200.

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    Docd187123 is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by lovbyts View Post
    Stress and lack of sleep can definitely affect your levels.
    For natural test production I would completely agree but do you think this is this case when on TRT?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodax View Post
    Well when I spoke to my Dr earlier today, they said that I might not be as responsive as most people. But I think they said that the max they go to is like 300mg/week and this time they just jumped it up by 50mg from 150 to 200.
    Theres a lot of controversy/ideas about this but here are my thoughts.

    It has nothing to do with your response to the TRT protocol or testosterone injections really. Your blood levels for total test are in units of nano grams per deciliter. This is a measurement of concentration just like test e 250mg/ml is. You don't say the test is not responding if it's not at the specified concentration. To say your body is not as responsive to the testosterone would mean it has less to do with actual blood levels, bc they'd be less relevant, but has to do with your bodies biological or physiological reaction to the gear ie what it does clinically ie the actual benefits and side effects.

    Bc this measures concentration of testosterone in your blood the on,y things that matter are the amount/mass of testoserone in your entire body and the volume of blood in your circulatory system. You may have more blood than the average person so the same amount of test for you could result in lower levels bc it's being spread throughout a greater volume of blood hence the lower concentration. You could be a fast metabolizer of testosterone, you may have more esterase enzymes to cleave the ester and get test into the blood stream, and eventually metabolized out the body, quicker. The location of your injections also impact this as greater blood flow in the glutes for example will generally allow faster metabolism than traps or a smaller muscle group. Whether you do IM injections or sub-q injections would affect this. Probably a few more things I'm missing could as well but it's getting late lol. Hope this helps somewhat.

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    Read the whole thread

    - I have been studying total test levels in relation to whatever synthetic test type injection & something like this just doesn't seem right.

    I understand the body has other factors which effect total test numbers - but, is something like this physically possible? If the test dosing is correct the total test #'s should be pretty much exactly double. This is synthetic test, not natural type test production.

    This is very similar to another case of dose Vs Body's total test. His numbers should have also been double of what they were. It was UGL test, so the gear was in question. Yet, everyone else's BW has been good on the same gear.

    These aren't the only cases I have heard of total test numbers being pretty close to exactly half of what they should be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by < <Samson> > View Post
    Read the whole thread

    - I have been studying total test levels in relation to whatever synthetic test type injection & something like this just doesn't seem right.

    I understand the body has other factors which effect total test numbers - but, is something like this physically possible? If the test dosing is correct the total test #'s should be pretty much exactly double. This is synthetic test, not natural type test production.

    This is very similar to another case of dose Vs Body's total test. His numbers should have also been double of what they were. It was UGL test, so the gear was in question. Yet, everyone else's BW has been good on the same gear.

    These aren't the only cases I have heard of total test numbers being pretty close to exactly half of what they should be.
    UGL test? I don't think so, it was formulated by a compunding pharmacy. I could inject in other spots other than glutes and quads but idk what would be good though?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodax View Post
    Well when I spoke to my Dr earlier today, they said that I might not be as responsive as most people. But I think they said that the max they go to is like 300mg/week and this time they just jumped it up by 50mg from 150 to 200.
    Dr. Crisler titrates his patients in 20mg steps.

    It's important to understand that our response to Testosterone is not linear. If one increases their dose 20mg and their blood levels go up X points, it doesn't mean that the next time they increase the dose 20mg they will get the same X point bump in levels; they may get significantly more, or considerably less.

    Another idea worth understanding is that it better to titrate up to find your sweet spot, than it is to titrate down. If one increases their dose too much, it could put them in a place where they start experiencing side effects. If you wake up one night with night sweats, cankles, and bacne, you'll wish you were more conservative in your approach. You can trust me on that, as it happened to me.

    There is a lot of wisdom on this forum. Spend a few days and read everything posted in this section the last year or two. Then you'll be able to have some good conversations with your doctor.

    One thing you might notice is that precious few doctors are up to date on TRT. Sometimes it's up to us to educate our doctors.

    And it's okay to push back. If you think a dose or dose increase is too much, don't be afraid to tell your doctor that you would rather be conservative in your approach.
    Last edited by OingoBoingo; 01-22-2015 at 11:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodax View Post
    UGL test? I don't think so, it was formulated by a compunding pharmacy. I could inject in other spots other than glutes and quads but idk what would be good though?
    Why go to a compounding pharmacy when 200mg/mL is as common as dirt? And just as cheap?

    I pin SQ in quads and glutes, and like it just fine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OingoBoingo View Post
    Why go to a compounding pharmacy when 200mg/mL is as common as dirt? And just as cheap?

    I pin SQ in quads and glutes, and like it just fine.
    Bc by going to a compounding pharmacy he has no risk of being charged with possession of a controlled substance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Docd187123 View Post
    Bc by going to a compounding pharmacy he has no risk of being charged with possession of a controlled substance.
    ? I was under the impression that many pharmacies provide Testosterone , even Costco.

    Compounding pharmacies make sense if one actually needs something compounded, but wouldn't they be paying a premium for something that can be so easily and legally obtained at a regular pharmacy?

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    Well I pay like $15 for a refill each of HCG , Test, and Anastrozole. Along with the $200 a month I'm paying for the LowT service, it comes out cheaper than if I go to a pharmacy and use my insurance. And I don't believe they fully cover what I was prescribed, so it gets more expensive from there. The service deals with the compounding pharmacy, I didn't choose them. And I'm also ok with using a compounding pharmacy because a controlled substance charge doesn't look good for anyone, it also insures that it is a legitimate pharmaceutical, and they don't use a soy-based oil for the hormone suspension. If I went to Costco, like most pharmacies, their hormones are in a soy-based oil because it is cheaper to use in most cases and I'm trying to stay away from soy-based things in general. If I went to a UGL for whatever reason, purity and legality come into play.

    Basically I just chill over in Gondor with Gandalf and the gang while I avoid dancing into Mordor for obvious reasons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodax View Post
    Well I pay like $15 for a refill each of HCG, Test, and Anastrozole. Along with the $200 a month I'm paying for the LowT service...
    It's all starting to make sense to me now...

    So you pay $200 a month, and that doesn't include meds? Wow!

  38. #38
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    Yeah. but I would pay that for meds with my insurance and this way I don't have to go through some approval process and a ton of crap that follows me on insurance carriers. When I was on Clomid, it wasn't covered without prior authorization either, however it only cost like $50 a month for it.

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    Are you with our site sponsor? Lowtestosterone.com?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hawk14dl View Post
    Are you with our site sponsor? Lowtestosterone.com?
    Yes, I am. Why? What's up?

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