Krugerrs TRT Journey

[hammerheart]

19nmol/L

Well I guess that could possibly account for something.

Well for example mine was 40 and perhaps that's why I still had 800ng/dl at week 10.

19 is normal/ok btw

[FakeLove]

SHBG tends to rise when one gets older, so being young and having a low-normal SHBG I wouldn't see as an issue. I've had it always too and I don't have any of those mentioned conditions.

I'm not trying to confuse you or anything, but I'm not joking either when I said that I've run into a few individuals who ended up having low-normal TT figures after a 4ml Nebido shot at peak. There was an increase in their figures, but no nearly enough to even closely last the first 6 weeks. It's an endless road of blind guessing to try to figure out why it happened, but for a couple fellow patients it did happen. There was a long discussion about it at the time and no conclusion whatsoever.

But check the labs and see it from there (and start splitting )

[krugerr]

What about HRT and Low SHBG?

The concerns here are that 1) adding HRT may lower an already low SHBG even further, 2) may sidetrack a man from dealing with underlying medical issues and 3) will simply create an overabundance of free estradiol.
Now I definitely agree with 2. All reasonable underlying issues should be tracked and investigatedby by or with your doctor. Argument 1, however, may be weak. To test this hypothesis, it would be best to look for research with participants that are likely to have low SHBG. One such study was done on senior men with Metabolic Syndrome (prediabetes) and the researchers found that giving these men testosterone gel did indeed lower their SHBG a little. However, this was for a very small net change in testosterone. [12]


The same study boosted men's testosteorne much more significantly with testosterone undecanoate and actually found that the particpants' SHBG rose. Thus in this case, the testosterone actually helped. Why did the undecanoate do the trick where the gel did not? The reason is probably the fact that the undecanoate gave over a 100% increase in testosterone and testeosterone lowers insulin .


As far as #3, one has to realize that the difference in, say, free testosterone from low to midrange SHBG is not that great. For example, let's say you were a lowish testosteorne guy with total testosterone of 400 ng/dl and had SHBG of 32, which is a very "normal amount". That SHBG of 32 nmol/l would give you a free testosterone level of 8.31 ng/dl. A man with SHBG of 20 and total T of 400 would have free testosterone of 10.5.
This is an increase of 26% in free T. Now this is a bump, admittedly, but it is not the kind of bump that is going to make that much difference. Thus SHBG does matter, but it is not the force of nature that many men think it is when it comes to elavating testosterone levels . However, it does matter in the sense that it can foreshadown many medical conditions that need to be dealt with.


However, what I hear "on the streets" is that men who are low SHBG or just high converters to estrogen tend to do better with 3X weekly subQ injections. I believe the reason for this is that with smaller doses of testosterone cypionate more often, you get a smoother ride with lower estradiol peaks. The reason this is probably important is that if you are low SHBG, then you are going to be higher free estradiol. And, of course, elevated free estradiol causes many issues for us men.

So because my SHBG is so low, I have should have more Free T. However both Total, and Free testosterone were low, alongside the SHBG

[krugerr]

Well for example mine was 40 and perhaps that's why I still had 800ng/dl at week 10.

19 is normal/ok btw

The range is 10 - 70, So I just assume mine was "low". If its a normal reading then I can discount doing too much more research into that :P

[FakeLove]

Yes SHBG affects to free T because it binds it, but it's in a relation to the total T still. Free T can be calculated by using an Andersson formula:

Free T (pmol/l) = Total T (nmol/l) x (2.28-1.38 x log (SHBG (nmol/l)/10)) x 10

[krugerr]

SHBG tends to rise when one gets older, so being young and having a low-normal SHBG I wouldn't see as an issue. I've had it always too and I don't have any of those mentioned conditions.

I'm not trying to confuse you or anything, but I'm not joking either when I said that I've run into a few individuals who ended up having low-normal TT figures after a 4ml Nebido shot at peak. There was an increase in their figures, but no nearly enough to even closely last the first 6 weeks. It's an endless road of blind guessing to try to figure out why it happened, but for a couple fellow patients it did happen. There was a long discussion about it at the time and no conclusion whatsoever.

But check the labs and see it from there (and start splitting )

Quote the opposite my friend. I have no pretences over my level of knowledge. There are many many (x10^8) things I do not know.

Despite the differences between BB and IMT, they have both put forward lots of knowledge into this thread, and its now packed with information. All of which is new to me, and therefore educational to myself, and to others starting their path, or just wanting to learn.

Its a curious thing that such cases exist. Clearly im fitting into that catagory. I'll keep all my blood levels posted up so those wishing to follow and comment can do so.
If nothing else, this whole thing might save the next guy some trouble.

[krugerr]

Yes SHBG affects to free T because it binds it, but it's in a relation to the total T still. Free T can be calculated by using an Andersson formula:

Free T (pmol/l) = Total T (nmol/l) x (2.28-1.38 x log (SHBG (nmol/l)/10)) x 10

Yeah Ive used a couple of Calculators, but I didnt have the Albumin to get it exactly right.
But I have the Free Test reading anyway, from blood tests.

[SlimmerMe]

Hey Krugerr. I checked out your BW and am curious if you plan to get your TSH to an optimal level versus a normal level. Right now your TSH reads 3.5. I have a hunch you'd have more energy if you got closer to 2.0 or even 1.5.

Remember when reading TSH levels, the numbers are inverted. Low means high and high means low. I know when I got my levels closer to 1.5, I felt better. The doc was fine with normal. I prefer optimal.

Something to think about.

SM

[macmathews]

Hey Krugerr. I checked out your BW and am curious if you plan to get your TSH to an optimal level versus a normal level. Right now your TSH reads 3.5. I have a hunch you'd have more energy if you got closer to 2.0 or even 1.5.

Remember when reading TSH levels, the numbers are inverted. Low means high and high means low. I know when I got my levels closer to 1.5, I felt better. The doc was fine with normal. I prefer optimal.

Something to think about.

SM

Are you on thyroid meds ?
From my personal experience my TSH was at 1.063 before TRT.. After TRT it was recorded as high as 2.63
I understand that is common with exogenous test

[krugerr]

Hey Krugerr. I checked out your BW and am curious if you plan to get your TSH to an optimal level versus a normal level. Right now your TSH reads 3.5. I have a hunch you'd have more energy if you got closer to 2.0 or even 1.5. Remember when reading TSH levels, the numbers are inverted. Low means high and high means low. I know when I got my levels closer to 1.5, I felt better. The doc was fine with normal. I prefer optimal. Something to think about. SM

Thank you SM.

I've currently have no idea how to change TSH reading. I'll look into it later when I'm home. Thanks for the comment and feedback!


I am seriously lethargic at the moment. I put that down to just the Test levels.

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[krugerr]

Are you on thyroid meds ? From my personal experience my TSH was at 1.063 before TRT.. After TRT it was recorded as high as 2.63 I understand that is common with exogenous test

No thyroid meds. But they're cheap as chips. I've got a years supply in the cupboard!

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[SlimmerMe]

re: MacMathews question. Yes. But note, I'm also a female. I'm on BHRT ---not TRT. aka: little t.

[SlimmerMe]

Thank you SM.

I've currently have no idea how to change TSH reading. I'll look into it later when I'm home. Thanks for the comment and feedback!


I am seriously lethargic at the moment. I put that down to just the Test levels.

TSH levels are tricky. Main thing is to find that sweet spot-- and most docs, well, they just don't pay much attention to TSH levels. As a matter of fact, there were so many complaints the labs re-structured the levels to help a bit.

There's a big difference between 3.5 and 1.5. Can make all the difference in the world re: energy.

I prefer desiccated porcine thyroid. Some do well on the synthetic, but I like my t3, t4 combo. Works like magic. To me.

[hammerheart]

I might add that some hashimoto's people won't feel well until TSH is about 1, just because higher TSH means heightened autoimmune reaction.

Myself I'm on synthetic T4-T3 combination.

I was on a huge LT4 dose (150mcg) before adding 25mcg T3 and now I'm feeling a little hyper (tachycardia most of the day). I guess I will need to start taper LT4, but not before actual bloodwork is made, in September.

[krugerr]

TSH levels are tricky. Main thing is to find that sweet spot-- and most docs, well, they just don't pay much attention to TSH levels. As a matter of fact, there were so many complaints the labs re-structured the levels to help a bit.

There's a big difference between 3.5 and 1.5. Can make all the difference in the world re: energy.

I prefer desiccated porcine thyroid. Some do well on the synthetic, but I like my t3, t4 combo. Works like magic. To me.

Thanks so much SM for stopping by! I've got blood tests in a week, i'll get this tested and see where I am at.

[krugerr]

I might add that some hashimoto's people won't feel well until TSH is about 1, just because higher TSH means heightened autoimmune reaction.

Myself I'm on synthetic T4-T3 combination.

I was on a huge LT4 dose (150mcg) before adding 25mcg T3 and now I'm feeling a little hyper (tachycardia most of the day). I guess I will need to start taper LT4, but not before actual bloodwork is made, in September.

I'll read up on Hashimotos when I am in the office tomorrow. Another new one for me to learn about!

Ive previously used T3 and T4 during cycling etc. I did always feel good on it, but maybe I never made the connection because I was also on cycle. Be interested to hear your results as well bro.

[SlimmerMe]

I might add that some hashimoto's people won't feel well until TSH is about 1, just because higher TSH means heightened autoimmune reaction.

Myself I'm on synthetic T4-T3 combination.

I was on a huge LT4 dose (150mcg) before adding 25mcg T3 and now I'm feeling a little hyper (tachycardia most of the day). I guess I will need to start taper LT4, but not before actual bloodwork is made, in September.

Yeah. The only thing about this is, as in 1.0, I agree in many ways but something to keep in mind is, going under 1.5 could, note "could" could start to reverse and go into hyper mode.

It's a fine dance.

Thanks so much SM for stopping by! I've got blood tests in a week, i'll get this tested and see where I am at.

You're welcome, krugerr.

I'll read up on Hashimotos when I am in the office tomorrow. Another new one for me to learn about!

Ive previously used T3 and T4 during cycling etc. I did always feel good on it, interesting but maybe I never made the connection because I was also on cycle. Be interested to hear your results as well bro.

Many people who are hypo have Hashimotos. When you do your bw, get a TPO test. This will let you know.

Also. I tried the t3,t4, synthroid , cytomel combo but found the natural works better.

We all react differently to different fillers, etc. The main thing is to find what works.

[IncreaseMyT]

There is just no way to inject that much T and your TT levels do not go up. There are only a few explanations for this and it has to be one of them.

Meds are not T

Blood test error (this happens more than you think)

You have extremely low levels of the esterase types in your body that is responsible for cleaving the ester from the T. I don't even know if this is possible. I have seen some guys score low and wondered if that was it but you only moved 73 points. I am talking about someone supposing to be at 800 and only 550. Not only moving 73 points.

You could have moved that much naturally without injecting anything, just a normal swing.

I have seen the "non-responders" but their T levels go up. They just don't feel better. This is almost always because of a really low SHBG, which is also why you don't want to inject too much T at once.

T injections are the best of all applications at increasing Free T.

[krugerr]

There is just no way to inject that much T and your TT levels do not go up. There are only a few explanations for this and it has to be one of them.

Meds are not T

Blood test error (this happens more than you think)

You have extremely low levels of the esterase types in your body that is responsible for cleaving the ester from the T. I don't even know if this is possible. I have seen some guys score low and wondered if that was it but you only moved 73 points. I am talking about someone supposing to be at 800 and only 550. Not only moving 73 points.

You could have moved that much naturally without injecting anything, just a normal swing.

I have seen the "non-responders" but their T levels go up. They just don't feel better. This is almost always because of a really low SHBG, which is also why you don't want to inject too much T at once.

T injections are the best of all applications at increasing Free T.

Hmm, but a whole series of blood test errors keeping my levels low?

See what you're saying though, even as a non-responder the levels would peak, I just wouldnt benefit as much from it, or feel like I should.

[IncreaseMyT]

I doubt a whole bunch of errors.

Something is up though.

[krugerr]

I doubt a whole bunch of errors. Something is up though.

If there wasn't a big ol' pond between us. I'd come in for testing haha.

Agreed. Something is up. Still feeling like poop.

[krugerr]

So the results are in for last week. Dr has called me in to discuss Cholesterol.
It appears my Test levels are climbing still. Ive definitely got a little bit of libido back !!!


-----------------------------

LIPIDS

Name	Value	Range
Serum Cholestrol	5.6* mmol/L	< 5.2 mmol/L
Serum Triglycerides	1.96 mmol/L	0.28 - 2.2 mmol/L
Calculated LDL Cholesterol	3.6 mmol/L	< 3 mmol/L
Serum Cholestreol/HDL ratio	5.1	< 4

-----------------------------

H&H

Name	Value	Range
Haemoglobin Estimation	176 g/L	130 - 180 g/L
Haematocrit	0.53 L/L	0.38 - 0.54 L/L

-----------------------------

Testosterone

Name	Value	Range
Serum Free Testosterone	382 pmol/L	225 - 9999 pmol/L
Serum Testosterone	15.6 nmol/L	10 - 35 nmol/L
SHBG	19 nmol/L	10 - 70 nmol/L

[krugerr]

SlimmerMe - TSH has fallen now to 2.02, which is a lot better I think. Im feeling better overall.

IMT - Just had my script approved for my 6 week booster. Which is the 15th Sept.

My cholesterol has climbed a lot. Is this because of the TRT, or should I be concerned with these levels?
Also my H&H readings are at the top of the normal ranges, does anyone have thoughts/comments on these?

I have another blood test in two weeks (5th Sept) which should give us an idea of how the TRT in has effected me before the booster.

[marcus300]

Ive been on various T therapies over the last 11yrs and by FAR the best is Nebido, ive been using it for around 6 years my endo at the time who put me on it was one of the best in the UK said Nebido is the future of testosterone therapies. There are have been 2 yrs, 5 yrs and 8 yr studies done on it against all other therapies including TE and Nebido comes out on top every time. Ive posted links to these studies somewhere on here but haven't got time to find them.

You need to booster shot imho and it takes a few months before everything settles down into perfection but once it does injecting every 10-12 weeks is a breeze. Ive never felt better on an other therapy but make no mistake it isn't a life changer straight away it takes a few injection but once everything gets dialled in its sure is a life changer.

In all honesty it makes me laugh at the people who knock Nebido, maybe the don't sell it? maybe it isn't a big money earner as some of the Chinese peptide crap what gets knocked out to members who don't know the difference or even the UGL T but hey all I am saying, if anyone gets offered to try Nebido try it because without doubt its a life changer and is a remarkable therapy. If its not for you after a few months just go back to what works but its really funny see people get so annoyed when you mention something what doesn't fit into their generic Chinese protocols.

I've got a thread on Nebido and many other posts where ive posted studies what back the therapy up against TU and other therapies but at the moment I am too busy to search for them.


edit one study ive just found, there are many more

Largest international trial indicates that testosterone replacement therapy is an effective and well tolerated treatment for male hypogonadism in daily clinical practice

IPASS: Final data from the worldwide largest study of the tolerability and effectiveness of injectable testosterone undecanoate (TU) for the treatment of male hypogonadism involving 1493 patients. M Zitzmann, JU Hanisch, A Mattern, M Maggi. A presentation to the Men’s Health World Congress, 2010.


Key Points
Restoring plasma testosterone levels to normal alleviated the symptoms of testosterone deficiency1
The percentage of patients who reported “low” or “very low” levels of sexual desire/libido decreased from 64% at baseline to 10% after four TU injection intervals1
At baseline, 67% of patients had moderate, severe or extremely severe erectile dysfunction (ED), this decreased to 19% after TU therapy.1 61% of patients with some degree of ED reported a decrease in severity2
TU therapy markedly improved patients ability to concentrate1 and their reported mood1
89% of patients were “satisfied” or “very satisfied” with TU therapy2
The mean waist circumference in patients decreased from 100 cm to 96 cm1
Intramuscular TU was well tolerated and safe for treatment of male hypogonadism in daily clinical practice, irrespective of ethnic background1: adverse events and adverse drug reactions were recorded for 12% and 6% of patients respectively2. These were mostly mild to moderate in severity2
The most commonly reported ADRs were increase in hematocrit, increase in PSA and injection site pain (all
No case of prostate cancer was observed2


What is known

Systematic reviews of randomized, placebo-controlled clinical trials of testosterone in men, including older men (aged 60 years and over) and middle-aged men, with sexual dysfunction and hypogonadism have shown large favourable effects on libido, but moderate effects on satisfaction with erectile function.3,4,5,6,7

Outcomes in clinical trials of the effect of testosterone treatment on mood have varied. However, there has been evidence that testosterone treatment results in improvements in mood, particularly in older men with hypogonadism.8,9

The benefits of testosterone treatment on body composition have consistently been demonstrated in clinical studies of testosterone therapy in hypogonadal men or men with borderline low testosterone levels.3,9,10,11,12

What this study adds

The effectiveness of testosterone, shown previously in randomised placebo-controlled trials, has now been confirmed in a large, unselected patient cohort drawn from clinical practices around the world.

Clinically relevant and beneficial efficacy has been documented especially regarding sexual function and waist circumference.2 Mean body weight in patients also decreased under TU therapy.1 By the end of the trial those men reporting high or very high levels of sexual desire increased to 61% from a 10% baseline.

At baseline 36 per cent of men reported a “very negative” or “negative” mood. This fell to 5 per cent after the fifth injection.

References

1. IPASS Nebido: Final results from the largest international trial in testosterone substitution. A presentation to the Men’s Health World Congress, 2010. M Zitzmann, JU Hanisch, A Mattern, M Maggi
2. IPASS: Final Data from the Worldwide Largest Study of the Tolerability and Effectiveness of Injectable Testosterone Undecanoate for the Treatment of Male Hypogonadism Involving 1493 Patients. M Zitzmann, JU Hanisch, A Mattern, M Maggi. Undated abstract
3. Wang, C., E. Nieschlag, R. Swerdloff, et al. Investigation, treatment and monitoring of late-onset hypogonadism in males: ISA, ISSAM, EAU, EAA and ASA recommendations. Eur J Endocrinol 2008, 159(5): 507-514
4. Bayer Pharma AG. Global Nebido Satisfaction Study 2009
5. Boloña ER, Uraga MV, Haddad RM, et al. Testosterone use in men with sexual dysfunction: a systematic review and meta-analysis of randomized placebo-controlled trials. Mayo Clin Proc 2007; 82(1): 20-8
6. Gruenewald DA, Matsumoto AM. Testosterone supplementation therapy for older men: potential benefits and risks. J Am Geriatr Soc 2003; 51(1): 101-15
7. Isidori AM, Giannetta E, Greco EA, et al. Effects of testosterone on body composition, bone metabolism and serum lipid profile in middle-aged men: a meta-analysis. Clin Endocrinol (Oxf) 2005; 63(3): 280-93
8. Wang C, Alexander G, Berman N, et al. Testosterone replacement therapy improves mood in hypogonadal men--a clinical research center study. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1996; 81(10): 3578-83
9. Wang C, Cunningham G, Dobs A, et al. Long-term testosterone gel (AndroGel ) treatment maintains beneficial effects on sexual function and mood, lean and fat mass, and bone mineral density in hypogonadal men. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2004; 89(5): 2085-98
10. Bhasin S, Cunningham GR, Hayes FJ, et al. Testosterone therapy in adult men with androgen deficiency syndromes: an endocrine society clinical practice guideline. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2006; 91(6): 1995-2010
11. Qoubaitary A, Swerdloff RS, Wang C. Advances in male hormone substitution therapy. Expert Opin Pharmacother 2005; 6(9): 1493-506
12. Stanworth RD, Jones TH. Testosterone for the aging male; current evidence and recommended practice. Clin Interv Aging 2008; 3(1): 25-44

[hammerheart]

TU is indeed the future of TRT and it's great, but Nebido not so much. It's dirty expensive, and the 10-14 week protocol won't work for anyone.

[marcus300]

TU is indeed the future of TRT and it's great, but Nebido not so much. It's dirty expensive, and the 10-14 week protocol won't work for anyone.

I guess that depends where you live for me its less than £10 for the prescription and I am sure it wont work for everyone, just like TE didn't work for me but it does for other. Use what works

[Mr.BB]

TU is indeed the future of TRT and it's great, but Nebido not so much. It's dirty expensive, and the 10-14 week protocol won't work for anyone.

I have to agree on the price. The local NHS doesnt do co-payment on TU, so I have to pay 100€ with every shot.

Maybe we can get a generic some time soon.

[marcus300]

I have to agree on the price. The local NHS doesnt do co-payment on TU, so I have to pay 100€ with every shot.

Maybe we can get a generic some time soon.

Less than £10 a shot here on prescription so not bad every 11 wks. 100€ isnt that bad every 3 months.

I have noticed it for sale on some online sites but it works out cheaper giving your 100€ .

[hammerheart]

That's what I hope for. In some regions of Italy low t is recognized as a chronic condition and Nebido is absolutely free, but I needed to pay 160 euros for a single shot.

[krugerr]

Yeah over here in the U.K. It's subsidised. It's £8.20 per NHS prescription regardless what it is I believe.

post_timestamp

[marcus300]

Nebido is a 4ml/1000mg shot. It's not so bad in glutes or quads.

I've done 5ml shots before without issue!

Ive done 4ml nebido in my bicep without any issues

Just from reading this thread makes me really start posting the studies but I can see its all going to go the wrong way seeing that its the site sponsor so all I am going to say just like many on here is my opinion -

There are studies all over the internet and on the Nebido site what were conducted over 2yrs, 4,yrs,6 yrs and 8 yrs all showing extremely stable and excellent values in comparison against other therapies. Everyone is different and different protocols lengths are needed but its a long term therapy what needs to be used before its fully running at peak so you can get everything dialled in. Most who use it don't need to use of an AI and in Europe its taking the TRT industry by storm. Again for me its by far the best therapy and from listening to my endo at the time and all the studies its sounds remarkable and after many years of taking it I would say it is outstanding.

I don't really want to have a discussion with certain posters here because their attitude stinks on the posts ive seen from them when someone disagrees with those in question and to be honest and its a company what sells T treatment via a compounding pharmacy and also other products like LR3 which are completely a waste of time and are the biggest con in the world and ive noticed you sell other peptides which I wont comment on but I am tempted to. But with respect I would rather take and listen advice from qualified people and a leading pharmaceutical brand like Bayer than someone who sells what they do.

I am going to leave it at that because they are sponsor and no doubt I will get my bottom spanked by admin if I do some digging further into the business and compounds you push. That's my opinion just like their opinion on Nebdio's protocol. Each to their own and I say if anyone has the chance of using or trying TU for any length of time using the protocols advise by Bayer you should, if its not for you then just go back to what works best for you but over here in the UK its called the magic of T treatment. I also must say I didn't really have a problem with Test E for my trt when I was using it but I much prefer injecting less and getting better performance and I would say I am definably more stable with TU, each to their own but for now I better sneak off before someone complains and I'm put on the naughty step

I'm out of here and very happy TRT users

[krugerr]

Always grateful Marcus for usersand knowledgable members to contribute. As you can see my levels are awful and I'm not responding as you'd expect.

Do you recall how you responded on your first injections?

Sent from my iPhone using App

[marcus300]

Always grateful Marcus for usersand knowledgable members to contribute. As you can see my levels are awful and I'm not responding as you'd expect.

Do you recall how you responded on your first injections?

Sent from my iPhone using App

you should follow the booster shot at 6 week and then every 10 wks and go from there, sometimes in some people it can take a few shots to fully reap the benefits. Pm me mate because I'm out of here now I can see this thread going wrong and I don't want that but you need to follow the protocol from Bayer. This isn't a protocol what happens with the first shot it takes time its a long ester and you need to attack it like the manufacturers stated.

[Todd Thomas]

Marcus what a joke LOL

You finally decide to throw in your two cents!!! Where has your opinion been this whole time?

My attitude was bad? Thats really funny, I pointed out the stupidity of the 10 week protocol, proved it 6 different ways and even used the data in the studies you guys posted to show how stupid it is LOL

It has nothing to do with someone "not selling it" Its a downright retarded protocol.

This isn't the first time though you have tried to tarnish my reputation because you couldn't handle being proven wrong.

STILL no one has posted positive labs on the program, NOT ONE PERSON

You know what though? My bad for giving a damn about what your doing to yourself. Maybe next time I will just not speak the truth so I don't hurt your feelings.

I mean seriously, you posted a survey on men taking TU that were asked yes or no questions......... This is a joke right?

[marcus300]

Marcus what a joke LOL

You finally decide to throw in your two cents!!! Where has your opinion been this whole time?

My attitude was bad? Thats really funny, I pointed out the stupidity of the 10 week protocol, proved it 6 different ways and even used the data in the studies you guys posted to show how stupid it is LOL

It has nothing to do with someone "not selling it" Its a downright retarded protocol.

This isn't the first time though you have tried to tarnish my reputation because you couldn't handle being proven wrong.

STILL no one has posted positive labs on the program, NOT ONE PERSON

You know what though? My bad for giving a damn about what your doing to yourself. Maybe next time I will just not speak the truth so I don't hurt your feelings.

I mean seriously, you posted a survey on men taking TU that were asked yes or no questions......... This is a joke right?

IMT you posted under one of your other accounts what you try and fool the members with lmfao. There are thousands of studies contradicting everything you said but I am on my mobile so why not view nebido site under research and they are all there.

You make accounts up to promote your con site selling junk peptides and T what comes from a compound pharmacy and you knock Bayer lol and not only that you have that many accounts everyone can see what your trying to do which I don't blame you.

All I am saying is people try it, if you don't like it go back to a proper T company selling pharmacy grade T and not a site selling junk peps

I wont be opening this thread anymore because Todd or who every posts promoting IMT is a joke imho, again just my opinion just like yours.

Anyone wants any studies or more info pm me and I will forward them via pm but you cant discuss anything with someone who sells what this sponsor sells imho,

I'm out, happy trt hunting guys

best of luck

[Todd Thomas]

Junk Peps LOL

I know people going to the Olympia in a couple weeks saying its the best thing they have ever tried!

Your a joke Marcus. Always have been.

Yea I am really trying to "fool" people with the name Todd Thomas !!!

You can't get mad all you want. I am not the one who is mad.

You and your lackeys can post whatever you want, there is nothing you can do to tarnish our reputation. NOTHING.

[NACH3]

Junk Peps LOL

I know people going to the Olympia in a couple weeks saying its the best thing they have ever tried!

Your a joke Marcus. Always have been.

Yea I am really trying to "fool" people with the name Todd Thomas !!!

You can't get mad all you want. I am not the one who is mad.

You and your lackeys can post whatever you want, there is nothing you can do to tarnish our reputation. NOTHING.

I'm not getting involved but if your saying those peps are as good as you think/say - I'd be damn sure nothing can come back and bite me(you) in the ass(i mean that is all we have imho) is our word and our Balls.. That's just my .02 and I'd much rather run RX GH

Now back to Krugerr... sorry mate I wish you all the best
Cheers

[Todd Thomas]

Yea no shet sherlock who wouldn't? LOL Is that even a question?

That is if we are talking about real rhGH and not the chinese GARBAGE.

Marcus feel free to jump in here because I have known you for 5 years and I KNOW FOR A FACT you are not a fan of chinese GH. If you want me to dig up your post's I can do that.

I have watched people gain 17 pounds on our peptide combinations. I have watched people lose 65 pounds and get their natural TT levels over 900 on our peptide combinations alone. I got the labs to prove it too.

So forgive me if I oppose your PATHETIC accusations.

[Todd Thomas]

And furthermore Marcus you of all people should be ASHAMED of yourself for even considering an every 10 week injection protocol, your supposedly an "expert" on this stuff right?

[NACH3]

Yea no shet sherlock who wouldn't? LOL Is that even a question?

That is if we are talking about real rhGH and not the chinese GARBAGE.

I would never even consider that shit! RX only... I believe I said that as well! Again changing topic for what reason... You think I don't know what the damn Chinese do... They counterfeit EVERYTHING! LOL

Marcus feel free to jump in here because I have known you for 5 years and I KNOW FOR A FACT you are not a fan of chinese GH. If you want me to dig up your post's I can do that.

I have watched people gain 17 pounds on our peptide combinations. I have watched people lose 65 pounds and get their natural TT levels over 900 on our peptide combinations alone. I got the labs to prove it too.

So forgive me if I oppose your PATHETIC accusations.

You know Todd - I was being respectful and your just being an asshole now!

Why do you constantly get sooo defensive or take it as an attack when of if someone disagrees w/you??? Your arrogant, can't stand to have a 'conversation' as all you ever do is start to SHOUT LOUDER AND LOUDER!! I haven't had a problem with you until now... You need to learn to be respectful as well as having a 'proper' attitude... Everyone sees how defensive and how you YELL TO GET YOUR POINT ACROSS LOL

Look man it's actually sound advice to follow if you think about it... You are a business man correct?!

Now Back to the Top... For Krugerr!