Krugerrs TRT Journey

[krugerr]

Here is a deal you can do I guess, keep taking your 10 week shots, and every ~14 days take an extra 250ml shot of test-e/sustanon by yourself, makes your trt kinda still legal and doc still looks after everything thinking that your nebido finally works... That is if he wont be putting you on e5wk protocol ever... Its complicated as fuck otherwise

haha. Defeats the purpose, I want to be using prescription test, not relying on varying dose UGL. I love my UGL, but they're only as good as the raws he gets. Cant be relying on that accurately for TRT purposes.

I really want this Nebido to start rockin. If Marcus, BIB and others can use it on 10-14 week protocols, I should be able to get at least 5!

[InternalFire]

I get your point,

How is your doctor willing to go with anything less frequent than e10wk protocols? Or source yourself another nebido to go in between pins

[krugerr]

I get your point,

How is your doctor willing to go with anything less frequent than e10wk protocols? Or source yourself another nebido to go in between pins

Endo's discretion. If they can see it isnt working, they 'should' be able to use common sense and deviate from the standard injection protocol.

[InternalFire]

Hope they wont try to fill you in with some extra testo-gel

[krugerr]

Hope they wont try to fill you in with some extra testo-gel

Not a chance, I wont use that crap again. Its very inconvenient, takes ages to absorb.

[hammerheart]

Not a chance, I wont use that crap again. Its very inconvenient, takes ages to absorb.

Yes, very expensive. It crushed my T down to castration level. I appear to absorb it very quickly. 20mg only of that sh*t and levels are up to 1000 ng/dl after two hrs, to crash shortly thereafter. Works like test suspension to me, lol.

Sadly enough, I stayed as long as six months on that crap (before nebido).

[krugerr]

Yes, very expensive. It crushed my T down to castration level. I appear to absorb it very quickly. 20mg only of that sh*t and levels are up to 1000 ng/dl after two hrs, to crash shortly thereafter. Works like test suspension to me, lol.

Sadly enough, I stayed as long as six months on that crap (before nebido).

I used it for about 6 or 8 weeks before my levels hit castration.

Free Testosterone 4.4 (nmol/L)
Total Testosteron 72 (ng/dl)

After that I said I wont continue with the gels.

[FakeLove]

Dude, why haven't you still tried splitting that thing? I honestly don't think that you will gain anything by doing things as you are currently doing. You're not the first one that Nebido doesn't work as planned. I mean sure you can try, but I would see your best bet to be splitting it or changing to another supplement.

I know the majority gets the benefits, absorbs it like in the studies and metabolises it like in the studies. But this your case, I've seen similar cases and only thing that has helped have been either insane injection frequency, splitting or other T supplement.

I mean this is the difference:

[hammerheart]

That sums it up.

[krugerr]

Dude, why haven't you still tried splitting that thing? I honestly don't think that you will gain anything by doing things as you are currently doing. You're not the first one that Nebido doesn't work as planned. I mean sure you can try, but I would see your best bet to be splitting it or changing to another supplement.

I know the majority gets the benefits, absorbs it like in the studies and metabolises it like in the studies. But this your case, I've seen similar cases and only thing that has helped have been either insane injection frequency, splitting or other T supplement.

I mean this is the difference:

For now I guess I am trying to play ball, so that I have more ammunition when I see the Endo for changing the injection frequency.
As it currently stands, my GP is administering my injections, and he wants to go 10 weekly. Thank god I see the Endo beforehand.

I do very much see the benefits of bring the Nebido protocol much narrower than suggested by Bayer. Just gonna tow the line until I can get them on board, and the scripts to do so.

[krugerr]

That sums it up.

except my decline was even steeper!

[InternalFire]

I think we're not seeing an elephant in the room. Although youre a big guy, 25% BF doesnt help, the more fat you carry the quicker and and at greater rate you aromatise your T to E, I just wonder how would you be if you went down to under 15% bf? Note, marcus and BIB are both very active and train with brutal routines constantly, and not even talking about them being lower bf than you, Im just guessing how much passive lifestyle and carrying more BF can play in quick metabolism on test in the body when discussing nebido protocol. So I understand, test either gets used as a muscle building tool or it gets converted to E2 and DHT , by the preference of demand. I think since building muscle is so much harder than storing fat for the body , if there is a passive drive and necessary resources (in this case - excess T) body sees no reason to use it as a muscle building aid and pretty much continuously converting it to e2 which promotes further water retention and expanding fat cells for emergency fat storage, where as if you were lean and had a constant stimuli on muscle breakdown/building body would promote its natural anabolic state where T is used to promote muscle building, and reduce fat energy storage mode... Speculating but i think it may be close call

[krugerr]

I think we're not seeing an elephant in the room. Although youre a big guy, 25% BF doesnt help, the more fat you carry the quicker and and at greater rate you aromatise your T to E, I just wonder how would you be if you went down to under 15% bf? Note, marcus and BIB are both very active and train with brutal routines constantly, and not even talking about them being lower bf than you, Im just guessing how much passive lifestyle and carrying more BF can play in quick metabolism on test in the body when discussing nebido protocol. So I understand, test either gets used as a muscle building tool or it gets converted to E2 and DHT , by the preference of demand. I think since building muscle is so much harder than storing fat for the body , if there is a passive drive and necessary resources (in this case - excess T) body sees no reason to use it as a muscle building aid and pretty much continuously converting it to e2 which promotes further water retention and expanding fat cells for emergency fat storage, where as if you were lean and had a constant stimuli on muscle breakdown/building body would promote its natural anabolic state where T is used to promote muscle building, and reduce fat energy storage mode... Speculating but i think it may be close call

My BF has crept up gradually since I stopped training, and dieting.

No doubt its too high, but with my current moods, libido, drowsiness... i cannot be arsed.

[InternalFire]

how about just jump on some passive hour a day cardio while watching some film/tv show/listening some good audio books? I found that killed the shitty-part of me that "couldnt be arsed" to train when I HAD TO DO IT. It helps kickstart brain and soul in to the right zone little by little and soon you should find yourself chasing the "good" feel while training hard and consistent, fuckin trick yourself in to it, dont need to go "oven-hot" (get it? the opposite of "cold-turkey")

[krugerr]

Thanks for the encouragment brother.

alongside my lack of arsing... its a time thing. I work so far from home that I have to leave before I have time to train in the mornings, then Im back so late I choose to see wife and kids instead of train. Priorities change.

[InternalFire]

kids on your shoulders, wife by the hand and go for a walk in the morning sunrise or evening sunset, every day! Just for kicks, for a good air, for the rain, for them clouds in the sky, just walk for an hour and laugh, talk and kick some grass, maybe sand if you live by the seaside.

Dayum man, get ahlod of the hardcore side of yourself for once, show it to yourself

[krugerr]

kids on your shoulders, wife by the hand and go for a walk in the morning sunrise or evening sunset, every day! Just for kicks, for a good air, for the rain, for them clouds in the sky, just walk for an hour and laugh, talk and kick some grass, maybe sand if you live by the seaside.

Dayum man, get ahlod of the hardcore side of yourself for once, show it to yourself

5 year old, and a 9month old brother. Shes in bed by the time im getting home, so no chance of that. Hes in bed soon after.

two jobs and all!

[InternalFire]

5 year old, and a 9month old brother. Shes in bed by the time im getting home, so no chance of that. Hes in bed soon after. two jobs and all!

Im in a mill-house of my own man, and boy oh boy I don't have time for anything either, but magic happens time to tome when you observe yourself more and more frequently, just keep an eye on it. i know life happens and thats it, but reasons for doing weird stuff happens to and then life tends to stretch that little bit when needed, just keep an eye on this man, if you do, I promise you , things will improve and you will notice hold strong man

[krugerr]

Results for the 22nd Sept (7 days after booster).

These are the highest recorded levels so far!

Tested - 14th July - FT 7.1 / TT 201
**Injected - 4th August - 1000mg Nebido
Tested - 8th August - FT 10.5 / TT 273
Tested - 19th August - FT 15.6 / TT 382
Tested - 5th September - FT 7.2 / TT 204
**Injected - 15th Sept - 1000mg Nebido
Tested - 22nd Sept - FT 21.6 // TT 514




H&H

Name	Value	Range
Haemoglobin Estimation	171 g/L	130 - 180 g/L
Haematocrit	0.5 L/L	0.38 - 0.54 L/L

Testosterone

Name	Value	Range
Serum Free Testosterone	514 pmol/L	225 - 9999 pmol/L
Serum Testosterone	21.6 nmol/L	10 - 35 nmol/L
Sex Hormone Binding Globin	16 nmol/L	10 - 70 nmol/L

[krugerr]

Once again, my libido has started to increase and I'm still permanently having mood swings!

Only 3 weeks until the Endo appointment! Im really hoping they'll have some common sense and interpret the above blood results properly.

[krugerr]

Im not sure where I am at now. I feel all over the place. Up and down like a freaking yo-yo. Some days im happy, other days not so much and I cant work out if its TRT, or the stresses of the rest of my life causing it.

5 days now until my Endo appointment. Gotta take a piss sample. Im hoping that the blood tests I have posted here, will be enough evidence for him to work from.
I havent had any more since my "booster" shot.

Fingers crossed eh that I can finally speak to someone with some knowledge and common sense to adjust my injection protocol.

[Mr.BB]

You need to start training, for someone experienced its easy to know when you are lifting on low T.

It will also help controlling your bloods, not to mention its healthy lol

[krugerr]

You need to start training, for someone experienced its easy to know when you are lifting on low T.

It will also help controlling your bloods, not to mention its healthy lol

What is the H word you speak of?

Yeah I know. Getting back in the gym would considerably increase my sense of wellbeing, and reduced bodyfat would make changes to my TRT effectiveness.
Its a nasty loop of feeling shit, so not training, and not training, so feeling shit.

On top of that, i have addressed in my Blog that I just dont have time at the moment. I am working stupid hours, and then trying to fit the small time I have left with the family. Id rather have higher BF and not train, than miss my daughters first year. Every day she does something new, you know? This morning as i was rushing about to leave at 6:45am, she stood up and balanced by herself, she is only 10 months. I think a few more days and she will take her first step. I missed all this with my son, I dont want to miss it again.

[Mr.BB]

Sorry to be blunt, but you are making excuses for not going to the gym.

So, you dont have 2 hours on weekend? What do you do, stare at the crib when shes sleeping?

Not buying it. Dont believe you cant find a small time, nobody is saying to spend 5 hours in the gym everyday. Couple of sessions per week everybody can squezee in...

If you dont want to is another story...

[krugerr]

Sorry to be blunt, but you are making excuses for not going to the gym.

So, you dont have 2 hours on weekend? What do you do, stare at the crib when shes sleeping?

Not buying it. Dont believe you cant find a small time, nobody is saying to spend 5 hours in the gym everyday. Couple of sessions per week everybody can squezee in...

If you dont want to is another story...

Dont be sorry. You're absolutely correct.
Weekdays are out of the question entirely due to work, the gym opens at 6 and I have to be on the road by 6:45. It closes at 9pm and Im not back in time usually to go. There are the odd days I am, but I choose then to see my family. Weekends I have a second job, I work nights as a bouncer, so I am usually in bed til midday, and the gym closes at 4pm on Saturday and Sunday. You're right, I absolutely could fit in a couple sessions on the weekend, but at the moment I choose to spend that time doing other things.
Right now gym just isnt a priority. I am working my ass off to try get us ahead so that I can drop the weekend work.

[TjmAble]

Sorry to be blunt, but you are making excuses for not going to the gym.

So, you dont have 2 hours on weekend? What do you do, stare at the crib when shes sleeping?

Not buying it. Dont believe you cant find a small time, nobody is saying to spend 5 hours in the gym everyday. Couple of sessions per week everybody can squezee in...

If you dont want to is another story...

Sorry but I also agree with BB let me give you an example at my program,

I get up at 6:30 and going to my clinic cause I'm a pre-med and I get out at 2 o clock then immediately when I leave I go to the gym but I chuck down a protein scoop with some carbs beside for energy, when I get out of the gym after 1-1:30 half ours at 3:30 I got for dialysis blood treatment (I'm a Chronic disease Kidney patient) for 4 hours and the I'm smashed like someone make my body a punching bag but after the treatment I go to library for studying for another 4-5hours and then I go to sleep + I manage to eat 6 times a day!

[gymffiti]

What is the H word you speak of?

Yeah I know. Getting back in the gym would considerably increase my sense of wellbeing, and reduced bodyfat would make changes to my TRT effectiveness.
Its a nasty loop of feeling shit, so not training, and not training, so feeling shit.

On top of that, i have addressed in my Blog that I just dont have time at the moment. I am working stupid hours, and then trying to fit the small time I have left with the family. Id rather have higher BF and not train, than miss my daughters first year. Every day she does something new, you know? This morning as i was rushing about to leave at 6:45am, she stood up and balanced by herself, she is only 10 months. I think a few more days and she will take her first step. I missed all this with my son, I dont want to miss it again.

I certainly know that feeling. It's a tricky situation

Let me know if you figure a way our of it lol

[krugerr]

Sorry but I also agree with BB let me give you an example at my program,

I get up at 6:30 and going to my clinic cause I'm a pre-med and I get out at 2 o clock then immediately when I leave I go to the gym but I chuck down a protein scoop with some carbs beside for energy, when I get out of the gym after 1-1:30 half ours at 3:30 I got for dialysis blood treatment (I'm a Chronic disease Kidney patient) for 4 hours and the I'm smashed like someone make my body a punching bag but after the treatment I go to library for studying for another 4-5hours and then I go to sleep + I manage to eat 6 times a day!

You quite obviously don't have kids or a wife to consider!

[krugerr]

I certainly know that feeling. It's a tricky situation

Let me know if you figure a way our of it lol

Now dont quote me on this, but I have been researching for many months. I believe that the answer to happiness is Ice Cream... im still testing the theory though.

[gymffiti]

Now dont quote me on this, but I have been researching for many months. I believe that the answer to happiness is Ice Cream... im still testing the theory though.

[TjmAble]

You quite obviously don't have kids or a wife to consider!

Please don't misjudge me I didn't said that like that, I wanna say if you love something so much you can find the time! For me it's bodybuilding and if I die in the gym I will not bother I meant it like that.
Hope the best for you and your family buddy!

[krugerr]

Please don't misjudge me I didn't said that like that, I wanna say if you love something so much you can find the time! For me it's bodybuilding and if I die in the gym I will not bother I meant it like that. Hope the best for you and your family buddy!

I know, friend. Lost in translation perhaps.

You're right, there was a time where gym was the priority. But with a family comes a lot of other responsibility. For me, that comes first at the moment. I have no ambition to compete at anything, so gym has fallen into the catagory of hobby. My professional career doesn't at all rely on my physique!

[TRA]

Im also on nebido, trying to decide if im taking the booster shot at 6weeks, which was due last tuesday.

You might want to donate before doing next bloodwork, or it might scare the doc.

Agree - nothing will bring TRT to screeching halt faster than elevated Hb/Hct. Depending on doc sometimes it makes them reluctant to move forward even after you donate if you show high at all.

[krugerr]

Well that Endo appointment was a complete waste of my time.

On my phone I'll update fully at home.

Sent from my iPhone using App

[krugerr]

Well, the Endo appointment...

Right from the start I knew it was a lost cause. Hes about 80 years old, has been in medicine his entire life.
He started by saying testosterone is dangerous and can kill.
We moved on to looking at my blood results (All in this thread), he noted LH and FSH were suppressed, this is probably because my doctor has been "reckless" in suggesting an 8 week injection protocol. He said it should always be 12 weeks except in extreme circumstances then possibly 10 weeks. Which basically put me on the defencive. I pointed out that LH and FSH are suppressed with any exogenous testosterone, but he ignored that. He continued to say that my levels were "satisfactory" as the range is from 200-999, and some of my bloods came in around the 200 mark. I had one test immediatly after a Nebido shot, and that came back at about 500. He said this was a dangerous level.

He then proceeded to point out that testosterone knows my weight, and wont work because of this. He used a BMI chart to determine I am morbidly obese and should drop 40kg.

I took my graphs and blood test data with me, to give him a visual representation of how my blood levels look when overlaid on my injection protocol. He wasnt at all interested. He kept saying that it will build up eventially. I then forced him to look at it. POinting out that after 1g Nebido, I was back at base levels in about 32 days. rendering the 6 week booster useless, let alone waiting 10 weeks. He said he could not explain this. He suggested that going back to daily cream is the best way to achieve steady state, and that I am too young.

He took bloods to test PSA. Informed me that I wont be able to have children on TRT and said he would look at my blood results and write to my Dr and myself accordingly.

To get my payback when he was checking my nuts for atrophy, I stretched right out and said "Perks of the job, eh!". He was not amused!

Thoughts? I think I will wait and see what he says. I am pre-empting that he will suggest going back to gel. In which case I will self medicate a while until i can afford a TRT clinic.

[hammerheart]

Gels are the worst imo.

Consider what I suggested in the other thread. That way you can restore nice levels and still access NHS services. Just take care not to overdo it.

[krugerr]

Gels are the worst imo.

Consider what I suggested in the other thread. That way you can restore nice levels and still access NHS services. Just take care not to overdo it.

Agree - I HATE the gel.

If I recall you suggested splitting the nebido 4 ways? I'll re-read my blog thread.

[hammerheart]

Agree - I HATE the gel.

If I recall you suggested splitting the nebido 4 ways? I'll re-read my blog thread.

Nope, this.

Splitting the nebido is not going to work.

[TRA]

Endo is not the specialty to see for TRT by any means. My anterior pituitary crashed from an infarct years ago and in spite of me not being able to produce LH/FSH endo says test pellets are bad. They think if you have a dusting of test you are fine. They have obviously never lived with the horrific feelings of having your hormones jacked.
I have a good friend who does HRT for men and women and is a leading authority, but even she does stuff like ignores HCG for testicular atrophy, uses letrozole exclusively and does not want to consider adex, etc.
I am in medicine (we get little to no training in hormones) but have gotten much better practical information here from an HRT specialist/knowledgeable member than my doc for sure. Just sayin'...

[Mr.BB]

Endos can work, if they have a specialization in andrology, still usually not up to date to most procedures.

Even recent medical guidelines are not so up to date...