TRT - Self Administered?

[gbrice75]

so did you start the trt today or are you holding off? also is the ins gonna cover labs and doctor visits?

I have the test in hand, pinning tonight!

Insurance should cover labs and office visits. I don't expect that to be an issue.

[Vettester]

Fvckers.
*interest piqued*

I am loosely following you here. I understand the concept of having more free test; I don't 100% follow the math, but I guess I don't necessarily need to know that in depth - or do I? The bigger question is - how do I go about doing this? I'll try to explain it with my "well" analogy ... Look at your testosterone like a well or reservoir of water. Your day-to-day life depends on this water. Let's say though that this water well is regulated, and you can only take a small percentage each day. If there were 300 gallons in the well, and you could only get 1% by rules of the regulation, then you and your family would only get 3 gallons a day to live on. Forget all that water that is there, because you're only getting a small percentage. Now let's say your neighbor has the same well, however he gets 2% of it. That would suck, because he gets twice as much as you, working on the same amount of water in the well.

Free testosterone is no different. That is what you are actually using when it comes down to it. We can only tap a small percentage of our testosterone (total serum) to be used. A good, healthy level is between 2% to 3%, and rarely will go over 4%. The rest of it is tied up strongly with SHBG and loosely with Albumin. In my case, I'm in the 3.2% range +/- 1/10th or so. So, instead of trying to increase your serum (or well) to 900 or 1000, work on increasing the actual amount that gets regulated to you, which might be easily achieved with a score of 550 to 700.

The math would be ...
Current: 1.56%
Amount of serum needed to achieve a free test value of 15.0 ng/dl = 962 ng/dl of total serum

Proposed: 2.5%
Amount of serum needed to achieve a free test value of 15.0 ng/dl = 600 ng/dl of total serum

Same net result yielded with a total serum level reduction of 37.63%!

So, you don't need nearly as much water in the well to get the same results. This would also mean that you don't need as much exogenous compound to get optimal results. This is one of the few occasions that less equals more. You're in a prime position to optimize your free test regulation, which would be resulted from lowering your SHBG. Low to mid 20's on SHBG will open up this door significantly for you in this department.

I haven't really given it much thought to be honest. I am certainly not against adding vitamins, although I need to get educated on the benefits, specifically with regards to TRT. DHEA - I was supp'ing it for a while last year, but ran out and didn't buy it again. I guess I should before it's banned.

I don't know much at all about Preg - it's a prohormone, right? Or am I thinking of something else? Pregnenolone is the precursor for all hormones, or even better known as the "Mother of all Hormones." GDevine has a sticky in this forum that discusses a lot of the features and benefits of pregenolone. Take a look at it and I'm sure you will agree that it should be factored into the BIG picture for HRT.

I fvcking hate insurance companies. Agreed!! (Although my wife works in the industry)

Responses in bold ...

[warchild]

I have the test in hand, pinning tonight!

Insurance should cover labs and office visits. I don't expect that to be an issue.

let the games begin!

[gbrice75]

Responses in bold ...

Thanks for the analogy bro. I still don't follow the math, but you're talking to a guy who passed math by the skin of his teeth with 70's all through high school... so go figure.

I do get the concept though. More free test, less total test, less compound needed to achieve this by reducing SHBG. This of course leads to the question - how does one go about lowering this value? All I could find so far was info on herbal supplements - namely, Avena Sativa, Urtica Dioica (stinging nettles), and Muira Puama. Any input on these, and/or something else you can recommend to achieve a lower SHBG count?

I'm also very interested in learning more about B-12, D, etc. - whatever legal means I can take to optimize TRT.

On another note - pinned last night. It was a great session because my wife was very cool (again, after going through a very rough patch due to AAS and related shit) and wanted to watch, and even said she might want to pin me the next time. She's trying to be really cool and understanding and open, and I really appreciate it. I'm lucky to have her!!

So, sitting... and waiting.... figuring on about 3 weeks or so before I notice anything. I'll tell you one thing - it did NOTHING for my workout this morning. I was expecting this great intense workout due to knowing that i'm on the road to recovery (i.e. mentally psyched, therefore propelling my workout) and I wound up having one of the worst, least intense workouts ever. Never even broke a sweat. Doesn't help thought that i'm fighting through a collar bone injury on the left side, and a wrist/elbow injury on the right.

[kelkel]

Combining vit D with stinging nettle will lower your shbg. The additional T will also suppress shbg. You'll be good to go soon.

[bass]

you are lucky to have her, my wife associated test injection with narcotics! be patient, test will start working after 4-8 weeks. B12 is waste of money. anavar will lower SHBG! i am like Vette, my SHBG is in the tank, but you might end up like us after a while on TRT, so be patient there also.

Great analogy by Vette!

[gbrice75]

Responses in bold ...

Combining vit D with stinging nettle will lower your shbg. The additional T will also suppress shbg. You'll be good to go soon.

I'll look into getting both immediately then!

you are lucky to have her, my wife associated test injection with narcotics!

Most uninformed people (no offense to your wife) do. They hear needle and they freak. Meanwhile, the orals which they'd have MUCH less of a problem with are tough on the liver and more of a concern IMO.

be patient, test will start working after 4-8 weeks. B12 is waste of money. anavar will lower SHBG! i am like Vette, my SHBG is in the tank, but you might end up like us after a while on TRT, so be patient there also.

Great analogy by Vette!

Why do you think B12 is a waste of money? As for anavar - can't get it without a script, even then it's expensive as hell, so that's not gonna happen.

[warchild]

For some reason im excited tp follow your trt journey! Glad to hear your wife is on board. Even my gf pins me and supports my trt. Keep this thread posted bro! The test will hit you soon enough and you'll wonder why you waited so long to start.

[bass]

Most uninformed people (no offense to your wife) do. They hear needle and they freak. Meanwhile, the orals which they'd have MUCH less of a problem with are tough on the liver and more of a concern IMO.

Why do you think B12 is a waste of money? As for anavar - can't get it without a script, even then it's expensive as hell, so that's not gonna happen.

none taken bro! as far as B12 its based on my personal experience and others who used it, didn't feel any different! its 3 shots ew and they hurt like a mofo!

[Stevens03]

Hey man I pm'd you. Can I get the name/website of this doctor. I have been searching for a HRT doc in my area.

[gbrice75]

For some reason im excited tp follow your trt journey! Glad to hear your wife is on board. Even my gf pins me and supports my trt. Keep this thread posted bro! The test will hit you soon enough and you'll wonder why you waited so long to start.

Thanks bro!!! And the bold... I REALLY hope you're right. I always have this weird paranoia that I won't respond to things the way the majority of people do..

none taken bro! as far as B12 its based on my personal experience and others who used it, didn't feel any different! its 3 shots ew and they hurt like a mofo!

Thanks man. Would like to hear more opinions on B12. I already supplement B-Complex in pill form, but I would imagine injections are another level.

Hey man I pm'd you. Can I get the name/website of this doctor. I have been searching for a HRT doc in my area.

I'll check out your PM now.

[warchild]

[QUOTE=gbrice75;6117275]Thanks bro!!! And the bold... I REALLY hope you're right. I always have this weird paranoia that I won't respond to things the way the majority of people do..

when and what was your last cycle? when did you notice the effects also? .....

[gbrice75]

when and what was your last cycle? when did you notice the effects also? .....

Last summer. I don't remember exact number of weeks etc. anymore, but it was a test prop + tren ace cycle, 50mg ED each. It's a loaded question because for about 2-3 weeks I noticed nothing and suspected the gear was bunk. Got new gear from a different source and noticed results within a few days as expected.

[warchild]

Last summer. I don't remember exact number of weeks etc. anymore, but it was a test prop + tren ace cycle, 50mg ED each. It's a loaded question because for about 2-3 weeks I noticed nothing and suspected the gear was bunk. Got new gear from a different source and noticed results within a few days as expected.

makes sense why you would think that you might not re-act to the test, but just think that your test is grade fn A american pharm no under-dosed bunk ugl! 3-4 weeks you'll notice

[gbrice75]

makes sense why you would think that you might not re-act to the test, but just think that your test is grade fn A american pharm no under-dosed bunk ugl! 3-4 weeks you'll notice

lol, from a logical standpoint I know this, but what can I say... i'm a headcase.

[gbrice75]

The additional T will also suppress shbg. You'll be good to go soon.

Kel et. al. - I wanted to revisit this for a minute. I read somewhere that additional T (i.e. TRT) will increase my total T, however shbg will also increase therefore binding to much of the additional T. i.e. the higher total T won't necessarily equate to (much) more free T. Thoughts?

On another note - i'm concerned about the fact my doc currently doesn't have me on an AI. I have an appt. in a month and I imagine he'll be doing labs again to see where things (including E2) are at, however I'm all about preventative measures versus waiting until there's a problem... i.e. proactive vs. reactive. Should I just insist on starting adex now, or do you think i'll be ok waiting for a month (and potentially raising E2 levels in the interim)? Would there be any drawback to running adex as a precaution?

Also, just out of curiosity - why does adex seem to be part of the standard TRT protocol vs. aromasin /exemestane? Is it a cost issue? Effectiveness?

[gbrice75]

^^ BUMP.

Also looking for suggestions on brands and strength for Vit. D and Stinging Nettles.

[bass]

Kel et. al. - I wanted to revisit this for a minute. I read somewhere that additional T (i.e. TRT) will increase my total T, however shbg will also increase therefore binding to much of the additional T. i.e. the higher total T won't necessarily equate to (much) more free T. Thoughts?

On another note - i'm concerned about the fact my doc currently doesn't have me on an AI. I have an appt. in a month and I imagine he'll be doing labs again to see where things (including E2) are at, however I'm all about preventative measures versus waiting until there's a problem... i.e. proactive vs. reactive. Should I just insist on starting adex now, or do you think i'll be ok waiting for a month (and potentially raising E2 levels in the interim)? Would there be any drawback to running adex as a precaution?

Also, just out of curiosity - why does adex seem to be part of the standard TRT protocol vs. aromasin/exemestane? Is it a cost issue? Effectiveness?

first aromasin is cheaper and has less sides, but if you can afford it or your insurance pays for it then go for it.

if your doc prescribes adex then i don't see the harm in taking it, but make sure you take it at very low dose like 0.25 mgs twice a week then see where you're at 4 weeks later, but don't do it on your own because if your doc sees that your e2 is in check he'll assume you don't need AI and he'll never prescribe it for you. on the other hand one month without AI even if your e2 shoots up won't hurt you, you can knock that down within a week with AIs.

i get my vitamin D from walmart, very cheep and very effective. the one i have is 10,000 iu per gelcap, i take it eod and my levels are at the top of the range.

[gbrice75]

first aromasin is cheaper and has less sides, but if you can afford it or your insurance pays for it then go for it.

Wait, now i'm confused. Do you mean that adex is cheaper and has less sides? That would make sense as to why it seems to be the go-to AI script for TRT protocols.

if your doc prescribes adex then i don't see the harm in taking it, but make sure you take it at very low dose like 0.25 mgs twice a week then see where you're at 4 weeks later, but don't do it on your own because if your doc sees that your e2 is in check he'll assume you don't need AI and he'll never prescribe it for you. on the other hand one month without AI even if your e2 shoots up won't hurt you, you can knock that down within a week with AIs.

Understood, thx. I will definitely wait until my first appt to at least discuss it with him.

i get my vitamin D from walmart, very cheep and very effective. the one i have is 10,000 iu per gelcap, i take it eod and my levels are at the top of the range.

I guess what I meant with regards to Vitamin D was - is there a specific 'type'? i.e. if somebody asked me about supplementing Vitamin B, i'd suggest a B-Complex vs. just B-12 for example. Is there a similar approach to Vitamin D - or is it just Vitamin-D, straight up? I keep seeing Vitamin D3...

Thanks for all the ongoing support Bass, much appreciated! Also hoping GD, Kel, and HRTStudent will pop in.

In addition to Vitamin D and Stinging Nettles, after reading GD's Preg thread I'm currently looking at supplementing Preg and DHEA. Seems 25mg in the morning and another 25mg in the afternoon each is popular.

Re HCG : I still haven't started (don't have it yet), but my script calls for 500iu twice weekly (I previously wrong 250iu 2x weekly, sorry for the misinformation). I am pinning test every 3.5 days. How would you (any of you) recommend adding the HCG? 500iu the day before the test injection? I see quite a bit about lower dose/higher frequency for HCG, like 3x weekly or EOD. I'm prescribed 1g per week - how would you ideally break this up?

[Brohim]

Thanks man. Would like to hear more opinions on B12. I already supplement B-Complex in pill form, but I would imagine injections are another level.



I'll check out your PM now.

I am taking B-12 injection's right now 1000mcg per day for 30 day's. 1.5 weeks in. Doesn't hurt 29 guage insulin pin 1ML ED. I will give a review if you like when I am done. So far I can tell my metabolism is a lot faster than before.

[bass]

Wait, now i'm confused. Do you mean that adex is cheaper and has less sides? That would make sense as to why it seems to be the go-to AI script for TRT protocols.

damn i need to check my E2 level

i meant to say aromasin is more expensive and has less sides, of course Adex is cheaper but has some negative sides like muscle cramping and messes with lipid panel, but not at low doses, i saw these sides when i was taking 2 mg or more ew.

[Vettester]

G, a good protocol for the HCG and test might be ...

HCG: 250iu on Mon, Wed, Fri
Cyp: ? on Tuesday late, Sat morning
If taking any AI, look at the day after taking cyp.

[gbrice75]

I am taking B-12 injection's right now 1000mcg per day for 30 day's. 1.5 weeks in. Doesn't hurt 29 guage insulin pin 1ML ED. I will give a review if you like when I am done. So far I can tell my metabolism is a lot faster than before.

Sure, i'd appreciate it. Re: your last comment - how can you tell?

damn i need to check my E2 level

i meant to say aromasin is more expensive and has less sides, of course Adex is cheaper but has some negative sides like muscle cramping and messes with lipid panel, but not at low doses, i saw these sides when i was taking 2 mg or more ew.

Thx for the info.

G, a good protocol for the HCG and test might be ...

HCG: 250iu on Mon, Wed, Fri
Cyp: ? on Tuesday late, Sat morning
If taking any AI, look at the day after taking cyp.

Cyp - close enough, i'm already on a schedule of Wed evening, Sunday morning. So I would simply switch HCG to 250iu Tuesday/Thursday/Saturday - however that's 750iu's, 250iu's under my script recommended dosage. Should I bump it to around 300iu's?

Sorry if i'm obsessing over small stuff; I just want to get this dialed in properly.

[Vettester]

Cyp - close enough, i'm already on a schedule of Wed evening, Sunday morning. So I would simply switch HCG to 250iu Tuesday/Thursday/Saturday - however that's 750iu's, 250iu's under my script recommended dosage. Should I bump it to around 300iu's?

Sorry if i'm obsessing over small stuff; I just want to get this dialed in properly.

Yeah, definitely, you can just tweak the dosage amount to match your personal needs. At one point, I was 300iu x 2/wk, then just went 250iu x 3/wk, which worked better for me. If you go 300iu or slightly over x 3/wk you should be GTG.

[gbrice75]

Thx Vette, will start with 300iu EOD (thereabouts) as soon as I get the HCG .

Still looking for some feedback on stinging nettles.

[gbrice75]

Today marks 1 week into treatment. Obviously no changes to report at present, but i'm hopeful for good things. This HAS to be the answer. I have been prescribed anti-depressant drugs in the past to no avail. Not sure what else the problem could be, but this can't be how people are supposed to feel daily... I just can't accept that. I probably should have looked into TRT long ago.

Question - is there any merit to the idea that lifestyle can affect T levels? i.e. I spent the better part of 15 years sitting on my fat ass, being lazy, literally zero activity, smoking, horrible diet, etc. - and I just wonder if that could contribute to low levels. Kind of the 'use it or lose it' theory...

[milky01623]

Today marks 1 week into treatment. Obviously no changes to report at present, but i'm hopeful for good things. This HAS to be the answer. I have been prescribed anti-depressant drugs in the past to no avail. Not sure what else the problem could be, but this can't be how people are supposed to feel daily... I just can't accept that. I probably should have looked into TRT long ago.

Question - is there any merit to the idea that lifestyle can affect T levels? i.e. I spent the better part of 15 years sitting on my fat ass, being lazy, literally zero activity, smoking, horrible diet, etc. - and I just wonder if that could contribute to low levels. Kind of the 'use it or lose it' theory...

Man u sound like what I was like only 12 months ago lol and I'm about to start trt today but only in gel form
I was just thinking that you guys in the states get to pin from day 1 yet us in the uk get gel to begin man u guys have all the fun
Good luck gb

[gbrice75]

Man u sound like what I was like only 12 months ago lol and I'm about to start trt today but only in gel form
I was just thinking that you guys in the states get to pin from day 1 yet us in the uk get gel to begin man u guys have all the fun
Good luck gb

lol, a lot of people here are prescribed gel's as well. The fact is most people don't like needles, so gel's/creams are the obvious choice. You're right though, as far as I know we are much further along here with regards to TRT as an accepted treatment.

Good luck to you too man, keep us posted on your progress, and thanks for the support!

[kelkel]

Can't tell you about stinging nettle by itself. I combined mine with a vit D protocol as well as upping my T dosage slightly. Tested 3 months later as follows:

SHBG was 41. Now 24
D was less than 25. Now 80
E2 was 15-16 (I run low.) Now 26

IMO it worked. Now to see how it holds is the question. More BW to come in October and I'll have my answers. If all the above fails you, try Danazol.

[gbrice75]

Can't tell you about stinging nettle by itself. I combined mine with a vit D protocol as well as upping my T dosage slightly. Tested 3 months later as follows:

SHBG was 41. Now 24
D was less than 25. Now 80
E2 was 15-16 (I run low.) Now 26

IMO it worked. Now to see how it holds is the question. More BW to come in October and I'll have my answers. If all the above fails you, try Danazol.

Awesome results. Would you mind sharing your protocol? I'd like to start ASAP.

[kelkel]

My normal TRT protocol is:

60mg cyp every 3.5 days
HCG 250 IU M-W-F
No AI needed

Went to this:

80 mg every 3.5 days (dropped this back after handful of weeks)
HCG same
Vit D (Drisdol) @ 50K IU once per week
Stinging Nettle @ 480mg per cap x 3 a day

I wanted to try and get it down fast then hope that adding in the D and Nettle it will maintain at its lower level. Time and BW will tell.

[gbrice75]

My normal TRT protocol is:

60mg cyp every 3.5 days
HCG 250 IU M-W-F
No AI needed

Went to this:

80 mg every 3.5 days (dropped this back after handful of weeks)
HCG same
Vit D (Drisdol) @ 50K IU once per week

Damn. I just bought vitamin D3 caps... I believe they're dosed at 2000iu per cap. Quite a lot of caps to make up 50k iu... any reason why it would be a bad idea to break this up throughout the week - i.e. 10,000iu M-F?

Stinging Nettle @ 480mg per cap x 3 a day

I wanted to try and get it down fast then hope that adding in the D and Nettle it will maintain at its lower level. Time and BW will tell.

Kind of confused - I thought D and Nettle were used to bring it down, but you're adding them to maintain already lowered levels. What then did you do initially to "get it down fast"? Sorry if you've already mentioned this and I somehow missed it.

[bass]

i take one gelcap of 10,000 iu vitamin D3 eod and my levels are at the top. i don't know why Kel takes it all at once (if thats what he meant) but normally it should be taken throughout the week.

[kelkel]

Drisdol is a prescription D which is as stated, 50K IU and you only take it once a week. Works great. Vette uses the same item, same protocol. When my script runs out I won't refill it, I'll hit walmart and grab some and probably run with 5k per day or so.

For clarity:

My T was upped slightly at the same time I added in the D and Nettle. All was done "in concert" to work together to achieve my goals. A little added T will push your SHBG down quicker than most anything else. Adding in the D and Nettle will give the added push to your shbg and when you go back to normal TRT levels, hopefully keep it there. As stated my next BW will be interesting to see if my theory works. I was also able to raise my E from a steady 16 to 26 where I'd like to keep it, although I think it will drop back down to its natural lower level.

kel

[bass]

Drisdol is a prescription D which is as stated, 50K IU and you only take it once a week. Works great. Vette uses the same item, same protocol. When my script runs out I won't refill it, I'll hit walmart and grab some and probably run with 5k per day or so.

For clarity:

My T was upped slightly at the same time I added in the D and Nettle. All was done "in concert" to work together to achieve my goals. A little added T will push your SHBG down quicker than most anything else. Adding in the D and Nettle will give the added push to your shbg and when you go back to normal TRT levels, hopefully keep it there. As stated my next BW will be interesting to see if my theory works. I was also able to raise my E from a steady 16 to 26 where I'd like to keep it, although I think it will drop back down to its natural lower level.

kel

thanks for the clarification Kel!

[MRNJ1992]

fantastic....

[warchild]

bump for the man brice!

[MickeyKnox]

Excellent thread! Great questions and input!

I have nothing to offer other than support brother.

Good luck with this Brice.

sub'd!

[gbrice75]

i take one gelcap of 10,000 iu vitamin D3 eod and my levels are at the top. i don't know why Kel takes it all at once (if thats what he meant) but normally it should be taken throughout the week.

Thanks for the input. I have crappy caps (2,000iu per cap I believe) but at the end of the day if quantity is correct, it's all the same.

Drisdol is a prescription D which is as stated, 50K IU and you only take it once a week. Works great. Vette uses the same item, same protocol. When my script runs out I won't refill it, I'll hit walmart and grab some and probably run with 5k per day or so.

Thanks for the clarification. As mentioned above, I picked up 2000iu gelcaps from Costco. Guess i'll just have to take a bunch of em'. I'll likely start with 6,000iu ED and add in the Nettles to see how things progress.

For clarity:

My T was upped slightly at the same time I added in the D and Nettle. All was done "in concert" to work together to achieve my goals. A little added T will push your SHBG down quicker than most anything else. Adding in the D and Nettle will give the added push to your shbg and when you go back to normal TRT levels, hopefully keep it there. As stated my next BW will be interesting to see if my theory works. I was also able to raise my E from a steady 16 to 26 where I'd like to keep it, although I think it will drop back down to its natural lower level.

kel

Noted, and thanks again for your input.

bump for the man brice!

I'm here man, usually take weekends off from the board lol!

Excellent thread! Great questions and input!

I have nothing to offer other than support brother.

Good luck with this Brice.

sub'd!

Thanks brother, much appreciated!

[gbrice75]

Well, tomorrow marks 2 weeks on TRT for me. Obviously nothing to note yet, but i'm hoping i'm one of those people who responds sooner than later. I did feel more energetic over the weekend, but that's likely just placebo effect. Hoping body composition changes are evident soon... within 6 months is being realistic, I believe (diet and training are in check).