Amorphic's First Cycle log: NPP/Prop

[Amorphic]

Tamoxifen and Your Eyes

by Dana Isherwood


The insert that comes with tamoxifen states under the heading of WARNINGS "visual disturbance including corneal changes, cataracts and retinopathy have been reported in patients receiving NOLVADEX " (tamoxifen citrate). Although information is provided under the heading of ADVERSE REACTIONS, ocular toxicity is not listed. This raises three very important questions:

1. Are visual disturbances a rare event?
2. Do they occur at low doses (i.e., 20 mg/day)? and
3. If they occur, are they reversible?

During 1978 to 1990, only six publications; and eight patients with ocular toxicity were reported in the English language literature, thus suggesting that this adverse side effect is either a rare event or underreported. That it can occur at low doses is documented. In Pavlidis et al [Cancer, Vol. 69, No. 12, pp. 2961-2964 (1993)], researchers reported that out of 63 patients receiving 20 mg/day for 5 to 51 months, 4 patients (6%) developed decreased visual acuity, macular edema, and retinal opacities. Discontinuation of the drug resulted in a reversal of the decreased visual acuity and macular edema, but the retinal opacities remained.

At the American Association for Cancer Research annual meeting in San Francisco April 10-13, 1994, researchers from the University Hospital in Zurich, Switzerland, reported that not only does ocular toxicity occur at Low doses, but that the reversibility of visual symptoms is dependent on total cumulative dose. Twenty patients with visual symptoms; caused by tamoxifen were studied. Results showed that in 85% of patients deterioration of vision was the first symptom. Corneal, retinal and optic nerve abnormalities were reported in 60% of patients on less than 10 grams in total, 20% of patients on less than 100 grams in total, and in none of the patients taking more than 100 grams in total. At 20 mg/day, this equates to taking tamoxifen for somewhere between 1.4 years (10 g) to 13.7 years (100 g).

Dr. Piotr Szczesny who reported these results in San Francisco also mentioned that he has found that, since most breast cancer patients are women over 50, many doctors who are not well versed in this potentially devastating side effect will assume that the lack of visual acuity reported by their patients are the result of aging eyes rather than tamoxifen. These women will continue to take tamoxifen, thus increasing their chance of permanent injury.

BOTTOM LINE: Ocular toxicity from tamoxifen is a rare side effect with a potential for permanent damage to the eyes if not recognized early. If you are on tamoxifen, have your eyes examined annually. If you have any problems at all with your vision, see an ophthalmologist as soon as possible.

[TranscriptionFactor]

Hmmm....That is correct. I did a quick review of the literature.
It can be oculotoxic but has a relatively rare incidence

Tamoxifen (Nolvadex)
Dose-dependent ocular side-effects include corneal opacities (whorl-like subepithelial calcium map-dot changes), and retinal or macular yellow or white refractile opacities, edema, degeneration, pigmentary changes and hemorrhages.

Retinal and corneal findings were more common at dosages of 180 mg/day. The standard dosage is now 20 mg/day or less, and the ocular side-effect incidence levels are around 1 to 2%.

Ocular side-effects seem to take two forms, one acute and the other chronic. The acute form is not well defined and usually occurs within a few weeks after therapy is instituted. Symptoms include vision loss, retinal edema, retinal hemorrhage, and optic disc swelling. It is thought to result from tamoxifen estrogenic activity, which may cause venous thromboembolism.

Typical tamoxifen retinopathy most commonly occurs after more than one year of therapy when a total of more than 100 grams of the drug have been taken. The retinopathy can include cystoid macular edema, punctuate macular retinal pigment epithelial changes, parafoveal hemorrhages, and peripheral RPE changes. Refractile bodies are located in the inner retina histologically may be the products of axonal degeneration. These lesions do not appear to regress if the drug is discontinued.

Visual acuity loss in the chronic side-effect form is often progressive, dose dependent and irreversible unless cystoid macular edema or hemorrhages are the cause of vision loss. Corneal deposits are seldom clinically significant and are usually reversible.

When retinal crystals are present, the patient should be evaluated every three months and should see their oncologist on a regular basis. Significant color vision loss may provide valid grounds to consider discontinuing the drug. If the medication is stopped for 3 months and color vision returns to normal, Tamoxifen may be re-started. If there is no rebound or if the visual side-effects continue to progress, a substitute for Tamoxifen may need to be considered.

------
So what do I think of this? If vision problems progress by all means stop Nolva and see and Optho doc, however all things considered it is very unlikely to cause ocular toxicity at a dose of 20-40mg/d for several weeks.

TF
(MD)

[Amorphic]

PCT DAY 18

back and bi's today. getting the motivation to get to the gym under my busy shedule is the shits but when i make it there i still feel pretty strong and get a nice pump.

i still feel emotional and a little off 100% but overall things are improving.

[wukillabee]

PCT DAY 18

back and bi's today. getting the motivation to get to the gym under my busy shedule is the shits but when i make it there i still feel pretty strong and get a nice pump.

i still feel emotional and a little off 100% but overall things are improving.

GLad to hear ur comin off pretty good to a rocky first cycle. I plan on doing this cycle at prop/npp 75/75 for 8-9 weeks as my second cycle starting january. Gonna shot 75/75mg of each ed of course. Cant wait to see ur final conclusion on the cycle and what u would do different or change if doing this cycle again. Would help me out a lot too. Thanks for doin a detailed log on this bro, been reading it all.

[Amorphic]

PCT DAY 19

Back and bis today, yesterday should have said shoulders and tri's so that was a typo on my part.

my strength is seeming to stay consistent now but the scale says 210, which means ive lost most of my cycle weight. Nicely enough though my waist is thinner than when i started and i have a more mature muscularity now. Hopefully i can eat a bunch more and make sure i get some of that weight back

[Amorphic]

PCT DAY 20 AND OVERALL CYCLE RECAP.

So i guess now is a good time to give my final thoughts on my experiences in my first cycle and the things ive learned along the way.

1. I highly doubt I will bother using any long estered compounds for a few reasons. First being that the quick kick in time of short acting esters is much more of a benefit in terms of reducing dead cycle time and getting the most out of the time you're on.

Pct starting 2 days after your last shot is also a huge factor in this. I personally dont like the idea of using long estered compounds for the fact that you have to wait 2+ weeks before starting pct. I also dont like the idea of having heavy suppressive 19nor steroids in my body suppressing my hormones for longer than they need to.

2. ED injections were not a problem for me. I have a pretty hectic life at the moment and i still found the time to get my injections done slowly and safely. The mild discomfort of using high concentrated short esters did not bother me much as its a small price to pay for the overall benefits.

3. DIET IS ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL. I was one of those people that thought their diet was totally in check and it wasnt until i started really eating cleanly and heavily that i put on quality size and dropped my waistline down. Even now i dont eat enough but i've learned a lot from this and will continue to focus on my diet.

4. Nandrolone really does make your joints feel great. I had a nagging shoulder injury before i started cycle and i honestly feel zero discomfort even on heavy days now. Since ive been into pct ive noticed ive had a bit of pain in my left knee which i never had during cycle.

5. i did not experience any negative libido issues on cycle. no problems with erections etc although i did not feel like i wanted sex all the time.

6. when i run another heavy cycle i plan on adding hcg to the mix. my boys still dont seem to be back up and running fully and i believe hcg might have helped me keep more of my gains and recover better. i will try to include it in all future cycles.

7. AAD induced insomnia was horrifying for me and still continues during post cycle. I definetly recommend some type of sleep aid, at the very least some melatonin.

8. Acne was moderate. First starting on my back (very small zits) and eventually to my shoulders and a bit down my biceps. Post cycle the acne got worse but as of recently has been getting better.
Any other questions you guys have, feel free to ask. i wont be updating this log as frequently anymore as things have pretty much wrapped up.

9. Body hair growth was very noticable. Im naturally hairy but this cycle definitely made things thicker. my stomach and back were like a black carpet when i didnt shave for 4 days or so. Much more hair growth on my shoulders, triceps and chest.
Thanks to everyone that followed me on this crazy journey. there will be more to come when i start my next cycle which will be prop/tren/winstrol.

[RANA]

Damn nice write-up!!!
So what was your diet like that helped you make those gains?

[Amorphic]

Damn nice write-up!!!
So what was your diet like that helped you make those gains?

i ate a lot when i was bulking before my cycle but it wasnt as clean as it could be.

basically when i shaped up my diet i did what i was supposed to. same meals every day, same time every day.

diet was somewhat along these lines.

breakfast - 250mls egg whites with a touch of cheddar cheese. 2 pieces of whoe grain toast and some peanut butter.

Workout - PWO shake.

meal 2, 3, 4, - 1 large chicken breast (teriaki or garlic herb seasoned), 1 large serving of brown or wild rice. Muffin, orange juice or water

Home after work - protein shake, some leftovers in the fridge (sometimes being hamburger patties from the day before or bbq chicken.

I would shake things up now and then with steak and soemtimes throw in a garden or caesar salad.

Cheating was somewhat minimal, the occational chocolate bar at work and maybe some ice cream at night.

[RANA]

i ate a lot when i was bulking before my cycle but it wasnt as clean as it could be.

basically when i shaped up my diet i did what i was supposed to. same meals every day, same time every day.

diet was somewhat along these lines.

breakfast - 250mls egg whites with a touch of cheddar cheese. 2 pieces of whoe grain toast and some peanut butter.

Workout - PWO shake.

meal 2, 3, 4, - 1 large chicken breast (teriaki or garlic herb seasoned), 1 large serving of brown or wild rice. Muffin, orange juice or water

Home after work - protein shake, some leftovers in the fridge (sometimes being hamburger patties from the day before or bbq chicken.

I would shake things up now and then with steak and soemtimes throw in a garden or caesar salad.

Cheating was somewhat minimal, the occational chocolate bar at work and maybe some ice cream at night.

Nice, I was about the same minus the muffin and OJ

[wukillabee]

PCT DAY 20 AND OVERALL CYCLE RECAP.

So i guess now is a good time to give my final thoughts on my experiences in my first cycle and the things ive learned along the way.

1. I highly doubt I will bother using any long estered compounds for a few reasons. First being that the quick kick in time of short acting esters is much more of a benefit in terms of reducing dead cycle time and getting the most out of the time you're on.

Pct starting 2 days after your last shot is also a huge factor in this. I personally dont like the idea of using long estered compounds for the fact that you have to wait 2+ weeks before starting pct. I also dont like the idea of having heavy suppressive 19nor steroids in my body suppressing my hormones for longer than they need to.

2. ED injections were not a problem for me. I have a pretty hectic life at the moment and i still found the time to get my injections done slowly and safely. The mild discomfort of using high concentrated short esters did not bother me much as its a small price to pay for the overall benefits.

3. DIET IS ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL. I was one of those people that thought their diet was totally in check and it wasnt until i started really eating cleanly and heavily that i put on quality size and dropped my waistline down. Even now i dont eat enough but i've learned a lot from this and will continue to focus on my diet.

4. Nandrolone really does make your joints feel great. I had a nagging shoulder injury before i started cycle and i honestly feel zero discomfort even on heavy days now. Since ive been into pct ive noticed ive had a bit of pain in my left knee which i never had during cycle.

5. i did not experience any negative libido issues on cycle. no problems with erections etc although i did not feel like i wanted sex all the time.

6. when i run another heavy cycle i plan on adding hcg to the mix. my boys still dont seem to be back up and running fully and i believe hcg might have helped me keep more of my gains and recover better. i will try to include it in all future cycles.

7. AAD induced insomnia was horrifying for me and still continues during post cycle. I definetly recommend some type of sleep aid, at the very least some melatonin.

8. Acne was moderate. First starting on my back (very small zits) and eventually to my shoulders and a bit down my biceps. Post cycle the acne got worse but as of recently has been getting better.
Any other questions you guys have, feel free to ask. i wont be updating this log as frequently anymore as things have pretty much wrapped up.

9. Body hair growth was very noticable. Im naturally hairy but this cycle definitely made things thicker. my stomach and back were like a black carpet when i didnt shave for 4 days or so. Much more hair growth on my shoulders, triceps and chest.
Thanks to everyone that followed me on this crazy journey. there will be more to come when i start my next cycle which will be prop/tren/winstrol.

Could we also get a recap on your stats and maybe before and after pics to compare? Like starting weight and ending weight, starting waistline and ending waistline (since you said your waistline slimmed up), etc. Thanks bro! Looking forward to doing this same cycle in January.

[Amorphic]

Could we also get a recap on your stats and maybe before and after pics to compare? Like starting weight and ending weight, starting waistline and ending waistline (since you said your waistline slimmed up), etc. Thanks bro! Looking forward to doing this same cycle in January.

i need to get someone to do my measurements for me since i dont think i can get accurate ones myself. I'll try to get someone to do them for me tonight or tomorrow if possible.

[RANA]

i need to get someone to do my measurements for me since i dont think i can get accurate ones myself. I'll try to get someone to do them for me tonight or tomorrow if possible.

Ask DSM

[wukillabee]

i need to get someone to do my measurements for me since i dont think i can get accurate ones myself. I'll try to get someone to do them for me tonight or tomorrow if possible.

Thats cool, what about some before and after pics and how much weight you gained from cycle? Thanks!

[Amorphic]

pictures removed.

[Amorphic]

pictures removed

[Amorphic]

PCT DAY 21

Chest/traps today. overall feeling weaker than cycle levels but maintaining the same strength now. pumps are still decent and i feel alright. motivation still not 100% but im keeping my head up

[RANA]

Post cycle. any idea on bf? im assuming like 13-14%?

Pics look good, I only have one suggestion "tan" J/K seriously your bf% is hard to tell but it could range from 11-13% but overall you look good.

[Amorphic]

Pics look good, I only have one suggestion "tan" J/K seriously your bf% is hard to tell but it could range from 11-13% but overall you look good.

yeah unfortunately working all day inside i missed out on the sun this summer

i dunno, i think the bodyfat is acceptable considering i do ZERO cardio while bulking.

when i start cutting my physique should be where i want it to be.

[RANA]

yeah unfortunately working all day inside i missed out on the sun this summer

i dunno, i think the bodyfat is acceptable considering i do ZERO cardio while bulking.

when i start cutting my physique should be where i want it to be.

I also did not do cardio during my cycle. You look great!

[southmadejd]

Good job Morph....are you going to cut now?

[Amorphic]

Good job Morph....are you going to cut now?

yes, cutting soon. i have the foundation im happy with, now its just time to bring it out.

everyone else, feel free to critique my pics, be harsh if you want as i know i have a ways to go and any feedback is appreciated.

[thetank]

man take a new back double bi so you have a direct compairison..its harder to tell without the same pose but what i do know, is you look way ****in bigger than you used too...you're too hard on yourself man from the way you talked about your progess for most of this log i didnt expect you got very good results but you look ridiculously better and way bigger. when you cut you are gonna look ****in sick man. your body looks pretty balanced too..wheels are up to par with yoru upper body and nothign really seems to stand out as lagging..chest looks to have alot more shape than it did as well. jsut goes to show how much the scale doesnt mean a****in thing. man im like 189 right now and used to be 240, but people would never in a million years guess i lost 50 bls and theres no way i look smaller(except for maybe in a sweatshirt) and those are some serious ****in tiger stripes youve got goin on your pec inserts man goddamn! do yourself a favor and take care of those..lol ive never put anything on my stretchmarks..and it definately shows. lol.
bottom line is you look good man, and should be proud of the size youve gotten too. props hommes!! looking forward to your next log..a cut is gonna do some crazy ****in things to your physique man i think even you will be shocked.
peace
tank

[Amorphic]

man take a new back double bi so you have a direct compairison..its harder to tell without the same pose but what i do know, is you look way ****in bigger than you used too...you're too hard on yourself man from the way you talked about your progess for most of this log i didnt expect you got very good results but you look ridiculously better and way bigger. when you cut you are gonna look ****in sick man. your body looks pretty balanced too..wheels are up to par with yoru upper body and nothign really seems to stand out as lagging..chest looks to have alot more shape than it did as well. jsut goes to show how much the scale doesnt mean a****in thing. man im like 189 right now and used to be 240, but people would never in a million years guess i lost 50 bls and theres no way i look smaller(except for maybe in a sweatshirt) and those are some serious ****in tiger stripes youve got goin on your pec inserts man goddamn! do yourself a favor and take care of those..lol ive never put anything on my stretchmarks..and it definately shows. lol.
bottom line is you look good man, and should be proud of the size youve gotten too. props hommes!! looking forward to your next log..a cut is gonna do some crazy ****in things to your physique man i think even you will be shocked.
peace
tank

thanks bro, coming from you that means a lot.

[wukillabee]

Good cycle bro, can really see a difference! Glad to see ur cycle finally turned out good after a rocky start.

[Amorphic]

feel free to critique my physique as well guys. anything lagging and guestimates on bf%

[mauler]

why did you remove the pics bro?

[Amorphic]

why did you remove the pics bro?

i like to keep relatively anonymous on the forum. i keep the pics up for a bit to get a little feedback then remove until the next time i feel my physique has reached the level im pleased with to share with everyone.

next cycle log will have more pictures than this one as i plan on cutting very hard.

[mauler]

ive been following your cycle, can you pmme them, id reallyliketoseewhat you did

[Amorphic]

PCT DAY 28

Looking back at this month this has been a hard ride. Emotionally ive had some major ups and downs, even to the point of mild depression i believe.

I'm still feeling emotional but overall i feel basically normal in the gym. Pumps are normal and the post workout burn is back to pre cycle levels. I never noticed how amazing my recovery time was on cycle, i was training harder than ever before and i was never sore.

anyways, i dont think theres much left to talk about in this thread, i'll be starting another thread soon when i get back on cycle.

[stallion_1]

good luck