Jewish Influence In America

[MuscleScience]

Surely there are some jews that use gear out there. How come they are not chimming in?

[saturn08]

I am half jewish or should I say half of my family is jewish although I dont practice, thats why I have such problem with this thread

[juicedOUTbrain]

Surely there are some jews that use gear out there. How come they are not chimming in?

I guess you could say im a gear using jew, well partially at least...

Listen ecivon, you anti semetic, racist, bluntly dumb individual...

...Dont blame jews for some insecurity that you yourself doesnt have the balls to face up to. This is an open forum, sure, but racist bastards arent wanted I dont think.

I can only really speak for myself, but i dont think anyone here is blaming the jewish race, or jewish people..."Jew" is an easier word to use for Israelis...and i specifically target right wing israelis...just like i dont have much appreciation for the hard right wing of this country...the difference being that the Israeli right has a huge influence in the United States, and not the other way around...Areil Sharon himself reportedly stated in an argument, "the jews (Israelis) control america, and everyone knows it!".

Im sure there are some racists using these things for an excuse for their hate...but that doesnt mean that anyone who questions israel is an anti semite...

as i stated i am half jewish by blood(russian jew, not israeli, although some of my family emmigrated there)...Spiritually im more agnostic...but i do celebrate both christmas and hannukah...and I spent most of my holidays with the jewish side of my family...

They are typical NYC liberal jews, and they are all very political...in fact we were discussing israel's policies at thanksgiving last year...hell we even protested the republican convention together...some of them are pretty well known activists, journalists, editors...and i can say that the stereotype is true that jews do hold money in the family and control a lot, in my extended familys case at least... They are awesome, intelligent, respectable people, they even know i use gear and joke around with me about it...

bottom line, there will always be a poisoning of the well with racists, and its easy to get the wrong message from these types of threads...but questioning israels policies and the their influence into our country is a perfectly legitimate debate, IMO...and i think supressing this debate is very unhealthy for the country...

I cant speak for others, but i for one have some serious questions about these things and i dont appreciate being called racist for it.

[saturn08]

I dont believe that this debate was conscerning Israeli policies. If i remember the thread topic was about jewish influence in America. I believe that the debate over middle eastern polices is not discussed enough in our society. This i am in agreement with you on.
But I will not listen to ecivon degrade the very nature of jewish culture that instills strong family values, hard work, and the scrutinizing over every penny earned.

[saturn08]

if you will see very closely the topic of this thread and my response to it, you will see that what I said had nothing to do with Israeli policy. If you still think that I am calling you a racist after that, then I am sorry.

[saturn08]

It is true that there are jews that influence our government in many ways, especially when the cabinet is leaning more to the right side in response to middle estern policies and whatnot. this is true. There are a vast number of CEO's of big companies and chief financial officers in NY that are jewish.
They do control a vast amount of money in this country and thus carry a big stick.
The fundamental question is "Is there a problem with this?" NO. There is not.
Are you a racist if you say that jewish people have alot of money and influence the outcome of certain political agendas? No.
Are you a racist when you say that there is a problem with this, and that something needs to be changed so that jews dont have as much influence in this country? YES
For some reason jews are responsible for other peoples troubles? YES
there are things that are intrisically racist about this statement.

[saturn08]

Israeli influence in our country, is fine to debate as well, I see that alot of this thread was discussing this. I dont have a problem with that either.
But I am directing my replies to some of the original comments made ecivon, not to really anyone else on this thread.

[juicedOUTbrain]

I dont believe that this debate was conscerning Israeli policies. If i remember the thread topic was about jewish influence in America.

My argument is that the two have become one in the same. The USs unconditional support for Israel is supporting policies which i personally view as unjust and even brutal AT TIMES...I also think this influence helped along the push for war in iraq, but thats a tangent i dont want to go into at this point...And i think evicon made a mistake by saying "jews" influence in the US instead of "Israelis"

But I will not listen to ecivon degrade the very nature of jewish culture that instills strong family values, hard work, and the scrutinizing over every penny earned.

I hear ya bro, and hearing non-jews critizise and stereo-type makes me a little uneasy too...but i have to say SOME of their points are valid...wether we like it or not...

I for one am proud of my families accomplishments...I think the philosophy of working hard and keeping money in the family is a good one, and just the smart thing to do...

What i take issue with is when americans (of any race/ religion) loose lives or money in the interest of another country, which is what I see to be the case in some instances. I blame the infiltration of israeli right wingers into the government and the complicit media for being responsible for this...and i have elaborated on the specifics on the last page...

like i said i understand your concerns and share some of them...but we have to let bigons be bigons, and focus on the issue at hand without being so ...anytime you stereo type or generalize you invite critisism, for that reason i try to be very specific on what exactly it is that im talking about...

but again, i can only speak for myself...im very proud of my background(s) and dont want to shed a bad light on jews in anyway, just have a real debate about the policies...

Although i may come off pretty strong sometimes, i think we can agree on this

Are you a racist when you say that there is a problem with this, and that something needs to be changed so that jews dont have as much influence in this country? YES

To say jews should be stopped from having influence is truely racist and against everything american stands for.

The only thing that i think should be done to prevent unwarrented ISRAELI interest is expose some of these right wing groups like the AEI, and PNAC in the media, which has not been done to this point...being able to write or control policy from behind the scenes, without scrutiny, can be very dangerous, IMO...I think an independent media would keep em' honest...

[saturn08]

And I am proud of my background as well, a very large portion of my family is Jewish, with very man relatives in Israel as well as in Russia and several other countries.
To be honest I am lean more towards the hard line right wing agenda when it comes to issues conscerning Israel. BUt that is not what I am arguing over.
My issue comes from the the fact that I feel ecivon did not bring up this article as an attempt to discuss the intrinsic nature of israeli-american policies, I felt a bitterness towards jews in general coming from his posts and somewhat subtlely racist remarks.
This is what I dont like.
I do disagree with you on the statement that israeli right wingers infiltrate our government, as if they were pseudo spies or something, and that American support for Israel is unjust, but that is neither here nor there. Do you understand now?

[juicedOUTbrain]

To be honest I am lean more towards the hard line right wing agenda when it comes to issues conscerning Israel.

I used to until i realized that this hard-line mentality was making the israelis security problems worse not better...IMHO, I think some high-ups of the Israeli gov't dont consider peace to be the ultimate goal, but simply want an eventual annexation of the territories...but i dont really want to go into all the details of that now either

My issue comes from the the fact that I feel ecivon did not bring up this article as an attempt to discuss the intrinsic nature of israeli-american policies, I felt a bitterness towards jews in general coming from his posts and somewhat subtlely racist remarks.

I can see where you get that, but only he can answer that.

I do disagree with you on the statement that israeli right wingers infiltrate our government, as if they were pseudo spies or something, and that American support for Israel is unjust, but that is neither here nor there.

I think i laid out my argument pretty well for this on the last page if you want to check out some of those links...I wouldnt consider them spies...I think their influence was invited and welcomed by the bush administration along with their campaign contributions

I never said that US support for Israel was unjust, but that the USs support for some of Israels unjust policies was damaging to our national interest.
I realize the need for a strong alliance with israel, but i feel we need to be as even handed as possible when dealing with support for some of these policies...I also think we have to keep the interest of the US above all else. Doing otherwise will make the security situation in our country worse, IMO...

but yes i understand your concern, and even agree to an extent...just know where to draw the line between honest critique and rasism...

peace

[saturn08]

I used to until i realized that this hard-line mentality was making the israelis security problems worse not better...IMHO, I think some high-ups of the Israeli gov't dont consider peace to be the ultimate goal, but simply want an eventual annexation of the territories...but i dont really want to go into all the details of that now either

Im sorry but do you think that this problem with the palestinians is going to go away?
What, they just give them more land and they will be happy?
Or how about split Jerusalem down the middle? That would solve all the problems.
the fact is that these people are not going to stop until they "push the Jews to the sea"
Unless someone nukes that whole region, there will no end.
Not that anyone should nuke the place, but the hard line stance that Israel has adopted is just keeping their heads above the water so to speak.
Do you think all those Arab countries would for a second stop to think about invading Israel again if they were given half the chance? Not likely.

[juicedOUTbrain]

Im sorry but do you think that this problem with the palestinians is going to go away?
What, they just give them more land and they will be happy?
Or how about split Jerusalem down the middle? That would solve all the problems.

Well, I can tell you definitively, that as long as Israel occupies palestinian land no they will not go away...I would say the palestinians have a much bigger threat from Israel then israel has with the plestinians...The Israelis quality of life is barely effected by the conflict...The palestinians are the ones that pay the price...they are poverty stricken, occupied, have no country, human rights, sovereignty, no security whatsoever, their homes are bull dozed, 15x higher casualty rates, etc...But no its just the pesky palestinians...dont you ever look at it from a human persepctive instead of the typical pro-western, white blood is more important than arab blood? Dont you ever try to put yourself in others shoes to try to understand why people do what they do...

The Israelis want 100% peace while maintaining a harsh occupation...Thats an unreasonable request, IMO...your not defending yourself when your occupying someones land. I would argue that the palestinians are defending themselves.

How about they withdraw to the internationally recognized borders, and stop bulldozing palestinian homes while building illegal settlements on their land? They are systematically violating a whole peoples rights and stealing their land for the actions of small groups of militants...Have you ever seen videos from inside palestinian territories on how they live and how they are treated...Id be pretty damn pissed off too...

the fact is that these people are not going to stop until they "push the Jews to the sea"

Do you really think the 2nd or 3rd largest military power in the world has a legitimate security threat from a poverty stricken area, half the size of rhode island...

And all the surrounding countries also state openly today that they would recognize israels right to exist if they withdraw to the 67' borders and give the palestinians east jerusalem as their capital...which is legally theirs according to the internationally recognized borders...Its important to note the only two countried to ever vote against these requests in the UN are the US and Israel...

Do you think all those Arab countries would for a second stop to think about invading Israel again if they were given half the chance? Not likely.

Israel has not been invaded since 1948, and there were reasons for the invasion. After declaring statehood, the Israelis started driving arabs from their land in an attempt to "purify" the state...This continued all the way up to the Dir Yassin massacre in late 1947, in which over 100 innocent arabs were slaughtered by the israeli army in a friendly arab town near jerusalem...Then the arab coutries reluctantly invaded and were crushed within a few months. Although the arabs were angry at the creation of a jewish state at the expense of the palestinians, they were politically divided amongst themselves and were not prepared for war.

its important to note that even in 1948 all of the arab armies combined were no match for the IDF...All of the arab armies combined totalled around 25,000 while the IDF totalled close to 30,000 and with superior technology...

...Since the invasion of 1948 Israel has pre-emptively invaded Syria, Lebanon, and Egypt numerous times, and occupied land from all of them...

Today, Israels defence establishment has grown and the arabs militaries have weekend. Israel has nuclear weapons, guided missiles, satellites, etc...Now the arabs use "suicide bombers" and other terrorist tactics that could be prevented with the building of a wall (on the border, of course...not cutting through palestinian land)..

and what chance would they ever be given anyway...they may be pissed they are not stupid...they know challeging the 1st and 2nd strongest military forces in the world would result in total annihilation.

Give them what they deserve, according international law, and much, although probably not all, of the hatred driving terrorism will disappear, IMO...

The only other option that we have is to maintain the "peace through stregth strategy" that weve used...This strategy proves to be very costly in lives and financially while at the same time creating more instability and hatred towards the country, and 9-11 shows us that all the power in the world wont stop a few people wanting to **** us.

[Kale]

I am speaking on products made in countries that have no wage oversight, like your tennis shoes that are made in Thailand by workers making $.30/day. Japan, last I checked, pay fair wages, moreso than many companies in the US.

Ever wondered how much people get paid in Thailand? Here is an idea. At the moment, $1 is about 40 baht.

Agriculture, hunting and forestry (3,019 baht)
Fishing (2,968 baht)
Mining and quarrying (7,646 baht)
Manufacturing (6,420 baht)
Electricity, gas and water supply (17,841 baht)
Construction (4,706 baht)
Wholesale and retail trade, repair business (6,760 baht)
Hotels and restaurant (5,680 baht)
Transport, storage and communication (11,752 baht)
Financial intermediation (19,325 baht)
Real estate, renting and business activities (9,571 baht)
Public administration and defence (11,375 baht)
Education (14,883 baht)
Health and social work (10,804 baht)
Other community and social work (6,311 baht)
Private households with employed persons (4,068 baht)
Extra-territorial organisations and bodies (5,753 baht)
Unkown (12,341 baht)

Source: National Statistical Office, first quarter, 2005

Of course, there are a lot of people who are surviving on just 100-200 baht a day. The minimum wage is presently 175 baht per day.

[eliteforce]

assuming those #s are monthly

[Kale]

Yes they are monthly

[Kärnfysikern]

I specifically stated that most americans do not support bushs foreign policy. My jewish side of my family is very political and they hate bush with a passion. In fact, some of them even write for the new york times, hehehe...

However, they do support Israel...they just dont think that the US should be paying tax dollars and loosing lives for their country...

My point was never that the average jewish-americans were involved in some type of scheme...it was that the israeli right has taken over the foreign policy of this country and has too much influence in the media. Read the policy papers I linked before, than look at the members of the group...Than cross reference that member list to the list of bush cabinet members...If that doesnt convince you that our foreign policy was written in 1996 for Israel, i dont know how to convince you...

I got no problem with that argument, I just dont know enough to debate it.

From what I can tell from your past posts johan, you dont believe Iraq has benefitted the US...Have you ever wondered why US politicians pushed SO HARD for a war with little benefit...Maybe this will answer your questions...

Well if I where to bet anything it is that the middle east will be a very important region in 20-30 years or so when the oil wells starts to dry up.

I do not quite se how Iraq was a threat to israel in the condition it was before the invasion. If it was all about Israel iran would have been a more logical first target?

I personally think most americans would be outraged if they saw the true nature of the brutal palestinian occupation....But this occupation has been hidden from the american people by a strongly pro-israeli media who is routinely intimidated by these media watch dog groups, who themselves are run by the same zionists that write these policy papers...

We dont have that problem in sweden fortunaly. Here the media is biased in the other direction instead.

...check this movie out if you get a chance..

The War Party

I know that you dont think it matters, but I do...The Iraq war and americas unconditional support for Israel has worsened the security of the US...it has also done some damage to our economy by growing our debt out of control..Our standing in the world has drastically dropped and weve distanced ourselves, even from our allie...so i cant agree with you that the US-Israel relationship doesnt effect US...
For god sakes President bushs approval rating are now lower than the Israeli PM amongst arabs...In a war of ideas thats a pretty scary fact...You cant stop everyone that wants to hurt us, so making many many more of these people will only jepordize our security further, IMO...

Well the israel-america relations doesnt effect me. Because Im not american Thats why Im not that interested in the whole thing. I think Bush is quite incompetent though but mainly because of the way the bush admin has gagged scientists. He sure has hurt europe-america relations aswell.
I think the war on terror is making the world into a more unsafe place. It creates barriers and hostility instead of tearing them down.

[juicedOUTbrain]

Well if I where to bet anything it is that the middle east will be a very important region in 20-30 years or so when the oil wells starts to dry up.

Very true indeed...But these same companies that encourage these wars for oil, also refuse to invest serious capital in alternative energy, and even crush attempts to begin research on it. I guess I dont blame them they are oil guys, but to say its our only option, which is what they often state, is untrue, IMO...

I do not quite se how Iraq was a threat to israel in the condition it was before the invasion. If it was all about Israel iran would have been a more logical first target?

Well I believe overthrowing saddam was a means to intimidate Iran without having to goto full out war. Having 150,000 US troops on your border will make you think twice before messing around...I think it predictably had the opposite effect by giving Iran more pull in Iraq...

Some big contractors are also planning to build oil pipelines between Haifa and bahgdad that will be very beneficial to israel in the future, when stability is restored and the lined can be opened...

Here the media is biased in the other direction instead

I personally feel the truth is biased the other direction, but thats just my opinion...

bush admin has gagged scientists. He sure has hurt europe-america relations aswell.
I think the war on terror is making the world into a more unsafe place. It creates barriers and hostility instead of tearing them down

only a few more years, Im just gonna pray for someone better next time around to fix everything this guy has broken

[try-n]

Haye them darn jews.huh? Why don't you tell us all how you feel about blacks,and gays.and mexicans.and women.and everybody else but you?

[Kärnfysikern]

Very true indeed...But these same companies that encourage these wars for oil, also refuse to invest serious capital in alternative energy, and even crush attempts to begin research on it. I guess I dont blame them they are oil guys, but to say its our only option, which is what they often state, is untrue, IMO...

All the big car companies are coming out with cars that run on less and less gas and they all have flexifuel cars and are working hard on hydrogen fuel cells. So it seems to be getting to the right place. This is mostly a matter of consumer demand. In europe most people have small and economic cars while you american love those big useless gas gusslers.

Now about the alternatives, I dont know if the oil companies have tried to hinder progress. But Exxon doesnt fight against global warming anymore for instance. The bs that car and gas companies intentionaly "killed" the electric car for instance is just bs. Battery technology simply wasnt mature enough. Now it is and we start to se electric cars that are not worthless. Like tesla.

Every penny spent on wind and solar power is a penny wasted because it could have been used to improve nuclear technology. I doubt they try to fight wind and sun because they are dead ends anyway.

What is interesting though is that for the price of the iraq war it could have been used instead to take america a long way towards getting rid of oil dependancy. Something that would have been a way better investment than the war. But well its not my tax money wasted fortunaly


I blame the greens for the inactivity. they have brainwashed the public into beliving we have to give up our living standard in ordet to "save the planet". No one is willing to do that so nothing happens. A more technologicaly optimistic and realistic view is that we can get rid of fossile fuels completely without giving up any living standard.

[ecivon]

Listen ecivon, you anti semetic, racist, bluntly dumb individual, if you dont like jewish people so much and have a problem with them running goverment why dont you buy a brain and get into a political position where you can make a difference, instead of crying about how the jews run this and the jews run that. We live in probably the freeist nation in the world, where a man can "pull himself up by his own bootstraps" and become whatever he wants, including jews.
If you have such a problem with them, do something about it. Otherwise shut your mouth because you only show off your stupidity and ignorance.
Let me put it to you this way, "buddy" since you seem to believe that jewish people are holding down the arab population and responsible for arabs and everyone elses problems, forcing people into poverty, stealing jobs, killing palestinians and such,
approximate population of jews in the world is about 14,000,000

if 14m jews can cause such bad problems for the other 6.1B people on the planet then there is something wrong. now I have no problem with arab people. My best friend is Iranian. I grew up around Iranians who came over straight from Iran to Canada my whole life. And if my friends ever had a problem with jews they kept it to themselves.
As long as people work hard and have ambition, they can do anything; I truly believe that, and that goes for anyone and all races here in a country that is free. People ****ing died for the damn freedom that you so piss about. Dont like it here, go live somewhere else. Move to Iran or somewhere where jews or anyone non muslim arent wanted. See how you quality of life goes down. Dont blame jews for some insecurity that you yourself doesnt have the balls to face up to. This is an open forum, sure, but racist bastards arent wanted I dont think.

Typical zionist response: someone says something critical of Israel, call out 'anti-semite.' Distract attention away from the real facts. Stoke intimidation to quiet detractors.

My problen isn't with jews, but with zionism, those that support zionism and those jews that blindly support Israel, no matter what it does and its powerful lobbies, AIPAC, ZOA, JINSA, Council of Presidents, etc. etc.

I consider Israel the same as I consider Nazi Germany and South Africa: Racist and apartheid regimes. Nothing more and nothing less. Israel is a racist, apartheid and terrorist state, plain and simple. And it is impossible to be racist against Israel/jews as there is no such thing as a 'jewish' race. Jews are semites, exactly the same identity as arabs -- jews and arabs share precisely the same identity.

The only time I post anything here is in response to those that post anti-arab propaganda condemning arabs as a whole and it has been done a lot.

And I have done something about it. I have worked through a UN NGO, WFP, Amnesty Intl and other organizations in the Middle East and Afghanistan in pursuit of a Just Peace for 20 years. I know precisely what I am talking about.

[MuscleScience]

[QUOTE=ecivon]Typical zionist response:

what exactly is a zionist?

[juicedOUTbrain]

All the big car companies are coming out with cars that run on less and less gas and they all have flexifuel cars and are working hard on hydrogen fuel cells. So it seems to be getting to the right place. This is mostly a matter of consumer demand. In europe most people have small and economic cars while you american love those big useless gas gusslers.

Now about the alternatives, I dont know if the oil companies have tried to hinder progress. But Exxon doesnt fight against global warming anymore for instance. The bs that car and gas companies intentionaly "killed" the electric car for instance is just bs. Battery technology simply wasnt mature enough. Now it is and we start to se electric cars that are not worthless. Like tesla...

...I blame the greens for the inactivity. they have brainwashed the public into beliving we have to give up our living standard in ordet to "save the planet". No one is willing to do that so nothing happens. A more technologicaly optimistic and realistic view is that we can get rid of fossile fuels completely without giving up any living standard.

cool post...if given the choice i wouldnt give up my car for a battery powered golf cart, yet, so i agree 100%... Except i do have suspicions that oil companies did make an effort to supress any usable technology. There is not too much evidence to support this, i just feel its good buisness and that seems to be how these big exec's do things...I guess you've seen "Who Killed the Electric Car" not very convincing...

as for green peace, they dont have too much of an influence over here. You can see that by the fact that the US was one of only 2 countries who refused to sign onto the kyoto treaty (and nooen here really gave a shit)... And although i disagree with Bushs motives, I think the kyoto treaties were unfair to the US...China refused to sign it anyway and as tony blair said last week, " If the US and UK stopped all industrialization and carbon emmissions today, it would be 2 years before the growth in chinas economy made up for it"...Noone wants that.

As for alternatives...i think there are so many ways to harness energy in the world, im surpirised we havent taken advantage of them yet...The raw energy of flowing rivers, the sun, the wind, the power of the atom, hell even the vaccum of space is loaded with potential energy...i guess all of these methods have their drawbacks as well...

BTW, nice reference to Nikola Tesla, Im a big fan...he had some wild theories i like to think about...my favorite is using electro-magnetism to warp space time, but thats a whole different thread all together.

[saturn08]

Actually the land does not belong rightly to palestine if you want the truth?
Biblically the land belongs to the jews, if you want to approach it from that route.

In the 40's many of the Jews that fled from the massacres in Europe bought the land that is now Israel off of Arabs and Budan tribes. The land was not being used for any purpose, it was desert. Israelis bought the land and started growing crops and developing an agricultural system over the next 20years.

It was at this point when the economy of Jerusalem and Tel Aviv started flourishing that the Palestinians wanted their land back, because they realized the mistake that they had made.
And sorry, but the Israelis have not bulldozed houses for about a year, and even then they were few and far between. In fact they were only bulldozing Israeli did was to Jewish homes in the Gaza strip and the West Bank, in order to give the palestinians more land.

And now its the Israelis fault that the palestinians are poverty striken? They have not economy to speak of? Interesting but about about 1m of the population of Israel is Arab, several hundred thousands of those people come into Israel everyday to from Palestine to wrok.

The fact is that the Palestinians live like rats because they choose to live that way. If they were so smart they would develop an economy, an infrastucture, a military, and everything else that goes into make a stable society, in the land that they have now.
Why dont they?
Because then they will not garner sympathy from the UN and people like you. If they are so threatened by Israel why dont they build an army?
The answer is because they wont have an excuse to use suicide bombing, and terror tactics anymore. They will be a legitemate enterprise.

Besides, even if they wanted to do all these things, Syria and Iran would not allow it anyway. And we all know that. The Palestinians are like Pavlovs dogs to them. Show them a little steak, get em' hungry, and tell them its the Jews who are responsible for their starvation. Go eat that Jew, he is the reason why you are in that cage. Yes, I have key and no you cant get out, until the Jews are dead.
Come on, use use your brain here guys.
And 48' wasnt the last time they were invaded, it was 67' and Israel kicked the shit out of about 6 Arab countries that were trying to invade them.

[ecivon]

Actually the land does not belong rightly to palestine if you want the truth?
Biblically the land belongs to the jews, if you want to approach it from that route.

In the 40's many of the Jews that fled from the massacres in Europe bought the land that is now Israel off of Arabs and Budan tribes. The land was not being used for any purpose, it was desert. Israelis bought the land and started growing crops and developing an agricultural system over the next 20years.

It was at this point when the economy of Jerusalem and Tel Aviv started flourishing that the Palestinians wanted their land back, because they realized the mistake that they had made.
And sorry, but the Israelis have not bulldozed houses for about a year, and even then they were few and far between. In fact they were only bulldozing Israeli did was to Jewish homes in the Gaza strip and the West Bank, in order to give the palestinians more land.

And now its the Israelis fault that the palestinians are poverty striken? They have not economy to speak of? Interesting but about about 1m of the population of Israel is Arab, several hundred thousands of those people come into Israel everyday to from Palestine to wrok.

The fact is that the Palestinians live like rats because they choose to live that way. If they were so smart they would develop an economy, an infrastucture, a military, and everything else that goes into make a stable society, in the land that they have now.
Why dont they?
Because then they will not garner sympathy from the UN and people like you. If they are so threatened by Israel why dont they build an army?
The answer is because they wont have an excuse to use suicide bombing, and terror tactics anymore. They will be a legitemate enterprise.

Besides, even if they wanted to do all these things, Syria and Iran would not allow it anyway. And we all know that. The Palestinians are like Pavlovs dogs to them. Show them a little steak, get em' hungry, and tell them its the Jews who are responsible for their starvation. Go eat that Jew, he is the reason why you are in that cage. Yes, I have key and no you cant get out, until the Jews are dead.
Come on, use use your brain here guys.
And 48' wasnt the last time they were invaded, it was 67' and Israel kicked the shit out of about 6 Arab countries that were trying to invade them.

It is precisely because of threads like this that I post anything. This is all not true!

First of all, Palestinians have been in that region as long as any jew. They have as much right to land claim and stewardship as any jew. And to say that jews 'bought' land from the Palestinians and they moved out is an outright lie. The 'NAKBA' was the jewish irradication of whole villages and the forced transfer of the refugees to primarily Lebanon and Jordan.

And as far as any jewish/arab war goes, had it not been for intervention of the US, Israel would have lost the battles with the arabs. The arabs were gaining strategic momentum against the jews until the US sent in heavy weaponry and supplies.

There was then and still exists today the forced expulsion/transfer of Palestinians from what the jews call Judea and Samaria: Eretz Yisroel: From the river to the sea. Today it is done strangling the livelihood and very existence/breath out of the Palestinians by enforcing pure abject poverty, with the intent of making life so miserable for the arabs that they will leave on their own. The Palestinians don't choose to live like rats, they live like they do because the jews/Israel are strangling them to death by cutting off all livelihood and connection with the outside world, even humanitarian supplies.

[mcpeepants]

Actually the land does not belong rightly to palestine if you want the truth?
Biblically the land belongs to the jews, if you want to approach it from that route.

In the 40's many of the Jews that fled from the massacres in Europe bought the land that is now Israel off of Arabs and Budan tribes. The land was not being used for any purpose, it was desert. Israelis bought the land and started growing crops and developing an agricultural system over the next 20years.

It was at this point when the economy of Jerusalem and Tel Aviv started flourishing that the Palestinians wanted their land back, because they realized the mistake that they had made.
And sorry, but the Israelis have not bulldozed houses for about a year, and even then they were few and far between. In fact they were only bulldozing Israeli did was to Jewish homes in the Gaza strip and the West Bank, in order to give the palestinians more land.

And now its the Israelis fault that the palestinians are poverty striken? They have not economy to speak of? Interesting but about about 1m of the population of Israel is Arab, several hundred thousands of those people come into Israel everyday to from Palestine to wrok.

The fact is that the Palestinians live like rats because they choose to live that way. If they were so smart they would develop an economy, an infrastucture, a military, and everything else that goes into make a stable society, in the land that they have now.
Why dont they?
Because then they will not garner sympathy from the UN and people like you. If they are so threatened by Israel why dont they build an army?
The answer is because they wont have an excuse to use suicide bombing, and terror tactics anymore. They will be a legitemate enterprise.

Besides, even if they wanted to do all these things, Syria and Iran would not allow it anyway. And we all know that. The Palestinians are like Pavlovs dogs to them. Show them a little steak, get em' hungry, and tell them its the Jews who are responsible for their starvation. Go eat that Jew, he is the reason why you are in that cage. Yes, I have key and no you cant get out, until the Jews are dead.
Come on, use use your brain here guys.
And 48' wasnt the last time they were invaded, it was 67' and Israel kicked the shit out of about 6 Arab countries that were trying to invade them.

Well Bibically the Hittites and the Amorites and other Canaanites where there before the Israelis. The Egyptians used to control the land too. Your using religion to justify a land being yours that basis of actually living there. The jews who came to Israel after the holocaust are Europeans plain and simple. How do they have more of a claim to land than arabs, christians, and other jews that have been living in the land for a couple thousand years.

Israel controlls the West Bank and Gaza like a vice. They said they withdrew from Gaza but they controll Gaza border, sea access, and air space. How are you suppose to develope a economy if Israel can control the export of your goods?

When Israel declared Independence, most of the arabs in Israel proper were driven out and are currently sitting as refugees in Jordan. If the palestinians stopped fighting, Israel would be settlements in the West Bank and might still be in Gaza. I mean there still building settlements in the West Bank.

[juicedOUTbrain]

Actually the land does not belong rightly to palestine if you want the truth?
Biblically the land belongs to the jews, if you want to approach it from that route.

In the civilized world we dont base our actions on the bible (which never even gives jews sole access to Israel), we base them on law...your statement shows exactly why many people have such a huge problem with zionism...

Your so intent on giving Israelis a safe and secure homeland, yet you care nothing about the sovereignty and security of palestinians...Thats the exact mindset that angers me about Israelis and hardline zionists.

International law says Israel should withdraw to the 67 borders, and give up east jerusalem. Their refusal to do this is the primary reason for most of the violence...a people have every right according to international law to defend themselves against occupation...

straight up, according to what you say you are the racist, wether you know it or not...why? because you believe jewish blood is more imprtant than palestinian blood even if its in a biblical context...

And sorry, but the Israelis have not bulldozed houses for about a year, and even then they were few and far between. In fact they were only bulldozing Israeli did was to Jewish homes in the Gaza strip and the West Bank, in order to give the palestinians more land.

no sorry to you, one year doesnt make up for 30 + years of opression...and the borders are still controlled as well as the bypass roads that cut through both settlements.

The fact is that the Palestinians live like rats because they choose to live that way. If they were so smart they would develop an economy, an infrastucture, a military, and everything else that goes into make a stable society, in the land that they have now.
Why dont they?
Because then they will not garner sympathy from the UN and people like you. If they are so threatened by Israel why dont they build an army?
The answer is because they wont have an excuse to use suicide bombing, and terror tactics anymore. They will be a legitemate enterprise.

Besides, even if they wanted to do all these things, Syria and Iran would not allow it anyway. And we all know that.

You also state that the Palestinians economy has nothing to do with the occupation and that "they choose to live that way"...all you have to do is compare the west banks economy compared to the almost lack of any economy in Gazza...That statement is discusting and ignorant...noone chooses to live like that...lets have foreign troops cruising the streets of the US and well see how our economy does...Palestine also has very few natural resources and the one they do have, acquifers, are being surrounded by Israeli settlements and stolen...

And 48' wasnt the last time they were invaded, it was 67' and Israel kicked the shit out of about 6 Arab countries that were trying to invade them

Actually yes it was...In 67 Israel preemptively attacked egypt... no official arab army ever stepped foot on Israeli land after 48...and in your effort to discredit me you proved my point...that israel has no legitimate security threat by all the arab armies combined, let alone the the palestinian militants...and if you want to repond that the rockets and suicide bombings are a real national security threat, thats what you get when you choose to occupy a group of people, I dont care if its not politically correct-stop whining about it...live in gazza for a day and see how secure you feel.

the terrorist tactics are the only method they have left...Like you, I despise these methods...but i go a step further by saying i equally despise dropping guided missiles in civilian areas from hundreds of miles away...wether its on purpose or not the Israelis are committing genocide...for example in last julys war between the IDF and hezbollah 400 israelis were killed, 40 of them innocent (this is with crude weapons)...out of the 1000 lebanese killed, almost half were innocent civilians. thats 10 dead innocent palestinians for every one dead israeli...this is so substantial because israel has one of the most sophisticated weapons systems in the world...how did they kill over 500 innocent lebanese in a matter of a week or 2 with these extremely accurate weapons? thats a ruthless and disproportionate use of force, bottom line...

i dont want to go round and round...you obviously base your thoughts on the opinion that arabs are dumber, more violent, and less valuable than jews...and that jews are perfect and always just trying for peace...I only pray for you that one day you love all of gods children equally and leave the US vs. Them mentality that has brought nothing but trouble to both sides...

[ecivon]

Well Bibically the Hittites and the Amorites and other Canaanites where there before the Israelis. The Egyptians used to control the land too. Your using religion to justify a land being yours that basis of actually living there. The jews who came to Israel after the holocaust are Europeans plain and simple. How do they have more of a claim to land than arabs, christians, and other jews that have been living in the land for a couple thousand years.

Israel controlls the West Bank and Gaza like a vice. They said they withdrew from Gaza but they controll Gaza border, sea access, and air space. How are you suppose to develope a economy if Israel can control the export of your goods?

When Israel declared Independence, most of the arabs in Israel proper were driven out and are currently sitting as refugees in Jordan. If the palestinians stopped fighting, Israel would be settlements in the West Bank and might still be in Gaza. I mean there still building settlements in the West Bank.

Israel says it wants nothing but 'Peace' and that it is because of the Palestinians that there isn't. But the jews refuse to describe what and how they call 'Peace' with the Palestinians. The peace the jews want is to seal the Palestinians off into at least three and maybe five cantons/bantustans. In essence outdoor prisons, encapsulating all of the Palestinians into enclaves where the jews tightly control all movement within these prisons with hundreds of checkpoints controlled by the IOF. Control of all movement into and out of the compounds and virtual control of all airspaces. Import and export of all Palestinian goods would be controlled by the jews as would collection and disbursement of all taxes due to the Palestinians.

The purpose of the so-called security wall, financed by American taxpayers, is to provide the western barrier(s) to these bantustans. It is for political reasons and not for security and to delineate the western borders of the final agreement unilaterally set by Israel. The jews will never give up the Jordan Valley. The goal will be to seal off the Palestinians until attrition takes its toll: the Palestinians either tire and remove to neighboring countries as refugees, or die waiting for an end to their planned extinction by Israel and the jews can take over the vacated land thereby seeking what they claim is their 'biblical' right: the entirety of Judea and Samaria

[Kärnfysikern]

cool post...if given the choice i wouldnt give up my car for a battery powered golf cart, yet, so i agree 100%... Except i do have suspicions that oil companies did make an effort to supress any usable technology. There is not too much evidence to support this, i just feel its good buisness and that seems to be how these big exec's do things...I guess you've seen "Who Killed the Electric Car" not very convincing...

as for green peace, they dont have too much of an influence over here. You can see that by the fact that the US was one of only 2 countries who refused to sign onto the kyoto treaty (and nooen here really gave a shit)... And although i disagree with Bushs motives, I think the kyoto treaties were unfair to the US...China refused to sign it anyway and as tony blair said last week, " If the US and UK stopped all industrialization and carbon emmissions today, it would be 2 years before the growth in chinas economy made up for it"...Noone wants that.

As for alternatives...i think there are so many ways to harness energy in the world, im surpirised we havent taken advantage of them yet...The raw energy of flowing rivers, the sun, the wind, the power of the atom, hell even the vaccum of space is loaded with potential energy...i guess all of these methods have their drawbacks as well...

BTW, nice reference to Nikola Tesla, Im a big fan...he had some wild theories i like to think about...my favorite is using electro-magnetism to warp space time, but thats a whole different thread all together.

Im a fan of Tesla aswell, but I was acctualy refering to Tesla motors, its a company that has launched a electric sports car that they claim can outperform the regular sports cars and have a decent range on full battry. Check it outs, its a beauty.
http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php?js_enabled=1

I remember reading a article by a big shot in a oil company. He said the oil companies are preparing for there own funerals. They might be making record profits now. But unless oil geology is missunderstood it wont last. I suspect they are going to want to be a part of whatever replaces oil. I would not be suprised if they will invest more and more in alternatives in the future.

The kyoto is just a first step, not realy a solution or anything. But I think it was a good initiative. China is often painted as the biggest environmental crock. There is some truth to it but they are also more or less building entire energy friendly cities! It seems like china is doing what they can with the economy they have. We need to take the first steps in europe and america, after all we are the ones that got us into this mess.

After studying physics now for almost 3 years I have to admit that I have become very sceptical to most proposed sources of energy. Wind and sun is generaly to hard to get anything out of and to unreliable. Wave, geothermal, tidalpower looks promising. But I think nuclear power is the only realistic option to coal and gas. Untill we can acctualy get a controlled and stable fusion reaction going.

If you got any good Nikola Tesla links feel free to share

[juicedOUTbrain]

After studying physics now for almost 3 years I have to admit that I have become very sceptical to most proposed sources of energy.

You sounded like a physist...I am an aspiring physicist, and both of my parents were relatively well-known physicists...I just finished up an assosiates degree in liberal arts and im transferring next semester to follow in their footsteps ( i got lost a little along the way)....I havent decided specifically which field i want to pursue yet...theoretical physics is my main love but not always promising enough...quantum mechanics is awesome and can get really crazy...im infactuated with entanglement theory, and i have some theories of my own on what it means...ill PM some of my thoughts to you if youd like? im told its intersting...

what realm of physics are you studying?

Wind and sun is generaly to hard to get anything out of and to unreliable. Wave, geothermal, tidalpower looks promising. But I think nuclear power is the only realistic option to coal and gas. Untill we can acctualy get a controlled and stable fusion reaction going.

If you got any good Nikola Tesla links feel free to share

Cold fusion is where its at...and other nuclear reactions could really solve our problems...but I think relying on nuclear energy would open up a whole new can of worms, getting rid of all that waste aty least. Cold fusion seems just a baby step away...

There are some new studies ongoing about the near infinite potential energy of the vaccum of space...i have a few little ideas of my own that i feel could harness some of this energy, but its not really a realistic option at this point.

As for the Tesla links...this one has always captivated me...I dont know how true it is...but based on the nature of his science i tend to believe it...

Tesla runs a touring car on "black magic" or free energy

[Kärnfysikern]

You sounded like a physist...I am an aspiring physicist...I just finished up an assosiates degree in liberal arts and im transferring next semester to pursue a degree is physics....I havent decided specifically which field i want to pursue yet...theoretical physics is my main love but not always promising enough...quantum mechanics is awesome and can get really crazy...im infactuated with entanglement theory, and i have some theories of my own on what it means...ill PM one of them to you, lemme know what you think...its pretty basic but im told its "interesting"...

Sure thing, but quantum mechanics isnt my strongest side yet. I havent had time to take any advanced class in quantum mechanics yet so Im just familiar with the basic. Schrödinger equation for spherical potential ect. I have no real experience with entanglement

Hold on to what you want to focus on until after the first 2,5-3 years or so. I went in dead set on doing cosmology or theoretical physics. But I have slipped from that. I feel that high level theoretical physics like string theory right now is to far away from reality and cosmology while wonderfully interesting is just to hard to make a carrer in. It also suffers a bit from the same reality disconnection as theoretical physics.

So now I am going to sneak start my diploma work(realy a bit to soon). Nuclear astrophysics. I might slip over into particle physics later on. Not sure yet. What I have seen of it so far is fascinating.

Cold fusion is where its at...and other nuclear reactions could really solve our problems...but it would open up a whole new can of worms, getting rid of all that waste.

There are some new studies ongoing about the near infinite potential energy of the vaccum of space...i have a few little ideas of my own that i feel could harness some of this energy, but its not really a realistic option at this point.

As for the Tesla links...this one has always captivated me...I dont know how true it is...but based on the nature of his science i tend to believe it...

Tesla runs a touring car on "black magic" or free energy

I think unfortunaly cold fusion is as dead as it becomes. Only thing that might hold some tiny hope is sonofusion. Otherwise I think good old fashion hot fusion is the only alternative.

Waste issue can be solved. Next generation reactors will use the energy in uranium 50-70 times as efficient. It will only leave 1/50 of the waste todays reactor produce and the waste will be shortlived. Todays reactors are quite inefficient realy. But since uranium is so cheap and abundant there is no economic incentive to fully develop the alterative reactors(breeder reactors).

Vaccum energy is interesting, especialy how it ties into dark energy. I cant say I know anything about that since I havent taken quantum field theory yet. But the fact that quantum electrodynamics predict such a HUGE vaccum energy while the cosmological observations show such a small vaccum energy is interesting. I wonder what will have to be modified.

I hope you will be able to stick to your optimism Learning physics is wonderfull, but it has the bad side effect of making you into a sceptic and pessimist

[juicedOUTbrain]

Sure thing, but quantum mechanics isnt my strongest side yet. I havent had time to take any advanced class in quantum mechanics yet so Im just familiar with the basic. Schrödinger equation for spherical potential ect. I have no real experience with entanglement

Dont worry, i wrote in in about 15 minutes for myspace, so it very simple....i dont fully understand quantum mechanics either, but i do understand the concept that the sub atominc world is ruled by a totally different set of laws as our phyiscal world...ill patch together some of my weird theories, though i have to say they are not very intellectually satisfying and leave alot of questions...Entanglement is just the theory that everything in the universe is connected...a few studies with particles have confirmed 1 of 2 things...either entanglement is real and our concept of space and time is an illusion convenient for us but not REAL things, or there must be faster than light travel.

Erwin Shrodinger is the man I have a book of his, its a compilation of two books into one called, "what is life?" its a compilation of what is life? and Mind and Matter...i must say its a tough read...it was written in the 40s so some of the theories are not as understood and developed as they are today. But i definitly reccomend it.

I also just finished a book by JG Gott, called, "the theoretical possibilities of time travel: in einsteins universe". awesome book really openes your mind, i highly reccomend it...very understandable yet in depth at the same time.

So now I am going to sneak start my diploma work(realy a bit to soon). Nuclear astrophysics. I might slip over into particle physics later on. Not sure yet. What I have seen of it so far is fascinating.

Thats a sick...field...studying the birth of stars, pulsars, quasars, etc is a much more solid science and the knowledge weve acquired about them has a long way to go...i gotta say im jealous.

I think unfortunaly cold fusion is as dead as it becomes. Only thing that might hold some tiny hope is sonofusion. Otherwise I think good old fashion hot fusion is the only alternative.

have any experiements been done on cold fission? off the top of my head, maybe making some isotopes of uranium or plutonium a little more stabe to make a much more controllable reaction? just kinda babbleing here...

Vaccum energy is interesting, especialy how it ties into dark energy. I cant say I know anything about that since I havent taken quantum field theory yet. But the fact that quantum electrodynamics predict such a HUGE vaccum energy while the cosmological observations show such a small vaccum energy is interesting. I wonder what will have to be modified.

Yep they calculate that the energy of a vacuum is about around 10 to the 71(notation)gm/cc...thats a tremendous amount of energy according to E=mc2...and this substance with no measurable mass having potential energy brings you to dark matter or anti-matter...a whole new can of worms...

I hope you will be able to stick to your optimism Learning physics is wonderfull, but it has the bad side effect of making you into a sceptic and pessimist :lol

I know...i lived with two of them a healthy bit of skeptism is good, but you have to be open to infinite possibilities...thats one thing quantum mechanics teaches you...

ill shoot you a PM with some sections of my writing, or i may post them in the philospohy section...

[saturn08]

I would love to debate with you more juicedoutbrain but because of
this

the terrorist tactics are the only method they have left...

I will not.

I believe that suicide bombing of innocent women and children to be vile, and the fact that you consider yourself proud of your jewish heritage and yet empathize with these monsters that not only commit these attacks, but believe that they are doing some sort of Gods will, is putrid.

No one, Jewish, Palestinian, black, white, whatever should condone the pre- emtive attack on innocent civilians.

****ing disgusting that you would even mention that these people have not other choice but to go in parks and blow up eldery people, or set bombs off in schools. There is not rationalization for these methods, whatever Israel, (which by the way they do not kill innocent civilians on purpose; they plan strategical strikes against targets of terror organizations, and some times there are casualties, and yes its atrocious, and horrible, BUT THEY DO NOT TARGET THEM) or anyone else for that matter does.

There is a HUGE difference between mistaken civilian casuality and the intent to to cause harm to innocent people.

And if you do not recognize this difference, then yes you have won this argument, because I refuse to even associate myself with this line of discourse.

And I was not using evidence to from Bible to further my argument: so you can keep you civilized world remarks at bay. The bible is a point of reference for many people that choose to take a more religeous stance when approaching arguments that are sensitive to their values and morals, I was merely pointing out the fact that it is stated for all those that would like to know that the land does belong to the Israelites in the biblical setting.

[juicedOUTbrain]

I believe that suicide bombing of innocent women and children to be vile, and the fact that you consider yourself proud of your jewish heritage and yet empathize with these monsters that not only commit these attacks, but believe that they are doing some sort of Gods will, is putrid.

No one, Jewish, Palestinian, black, white, whatever should condone the pre- emtive attack on innocent civilians.

****ing disgusting that you would even mention that these people have not other choice but to go in parks and blow up eldery people, or set bombs off in schools. There is not rationalization for these methods, whatever Israel, (which by the way they do not kill innocent civilians on purpose; they plan strategical strikes against targets of terror organizations, and some times there are casualties, and yes its atrocious, and horrible, BUT THEY DO NOT TARGET THEM) or anyone else for that matter does.

There is a HUGE difference between mistaken civilian casuality and the intent to to cause harm to innocent people.

And if you do not recognize this difference, then yes you have won this argument, because I refuse to even associate myself with this line of discourse.

And I was not using evidence to from Bible to further my argument: so you can keep you civilized world remarks at bay. The bible is a point of reference for many people that choose to take a more religeous stance when approaching arguments that are sensitive to their values and morals, I was merely pointing out the fact that it is stated for all those that would like to know that the land does belong to the Israelites in the biblical setting.

I dont have much time because im about to head to work...but you are a moron if the only thing you got out of my posts was that i approve of suicide bombings...I didnt say i approved of suicide bombings, i said i despise violence on both sides...and i dont exclude the Israelis...I think anyone who intentionally targets civilians is insane and should be brought to justice before they have a chance to do these horrible acts...

But i make a point of sayng, "why"??? what hopelessness and desperation drives these people to do this...Not questioning their motives leaves you dehumanizing these people and if we dont understand the problem, than it will never be solved...

And It is true that this is the only tactic they have left...they cant build an army, and they cant fight the IDF straightup so they take their anger out on soft target to try to prove a point (which becomes a hypocritical point when resorting to the actions that they despise), which again i think is discusting...

but bottom line saturn, i dont care if its on purpose or not, Israel has killed 30 times more palestinian civilians in the last 10 years or so, than israeli civilians...

we can argue about the intention, or the nessesity, but the raw numbers dont lie...30 times more dead civilians in a territory probably an 8th the size Israel proper...when the Israelis are supposed to be a civilized western country...i expect more from the israelis....they also have very precise weapons and an argument could be made that even if they never targeted civilians, the force used was disproportionate and ruthless...in other words inviting the death of civilians...

my last point is that israel considers anyone fighting against the illegal occupation as an enemy and doesnt count them as a civilian...they are occupying land and killing people who oppose the occupation under the guise of defence...

i am proud of my jewish heritage, and thats why the actions of israel anger me and the rest of my jewish family....jews are very intelligent thoughtful people, and not vengeful stubborn and ignorant...the actions of israel are not representative of my values or my families...I would expect more out of them than stubborness and resorting to bombs at the only way to bring peace!

im done, but your an asshole, if the only thing you got out of my 4 or 5 very large posts is that i condone suicide attacks...
pay a little more attention to what im saying and not how im saying it

done here

[saturn08]

good, as am I.
I was about to add that since this is a steroid forum, we can still talk about steroids all day, I wont hold anything against you as I hope you wouldnt with me, seeing as this is a purely political argument and has nothing to do with the real reason of why we are a chatting online in the first place.
And I would still would like to leave somewhat in a civil manner hoping that we remember the context of this argument, and can discourse on other things.
But if you want to start name calling and bullshit, then you can screw yourself, if thats how you want to end this subject.

[eliteforce]

when the nazi's were herding jews into ghettos, would suicide attacks against Germans have been justified, since the ghettos were a prelude to the destruction of jewish people, or maybe they were right to just willingly walk into the ghettos, allowing the nazis to confine them there..-for now(then).

Isn't true that these Palestinian bantustans are simply a prelude to what the Israelis hope will eventually be a forced expultion of the Palestinian population, or forceing them out by making normal life impossible and miserable, trying to get them to leave the country and resettle in some other arab country. or if there was a war with israles arab neighbors that could be an excuse ti kill them.

isn't true that the Palestinian militants including hamas have offered to end all militant activity if Israel respects the 1967 borders.

what kind of militant resistance is acceptable in face of such harsh Israeli 'security' tactics. needless to say the kind of thing we're seeing in palestine is unprecedented, much worse than the aphartied in s. africa was.

[Act of God]

straight up, according to what you say you are the racist, wether you know it or not...why? because you believe jewish blood is more imprtant than palestinian blood even if its in a biblical context...

You just summed up every issue I have with them

[juicedOUTbrain]

good, as am I.
I was about to add that since this is a steroid forum, we can still talk about steroids all day, I wont hold anything against you as I hope you wouldnt with me, seeing as this is a purely political argument and has nothing to do with the real reason of why we are a chatting online in the first place.
And I would still would like to leave somewhat in a civil manner hoping that we remember the context of this argument, and can discourse on other things.
But if you want to start name calling and bullshit, then you can screw yourself, if thats how you want to end this subject.

I hold no grudges...i do get heated when people take my words out of context....the whole point of my posts is to condemn violence ON BOTH SIDES...i could really care less, ive been paying attention to all this shit for a while and i know how i stand, i also know many people feel the way you do, it frustrates me, but what can i do...everyone has a right to their own opinion...ill see ya around the board...

and before you label anyone racist for being against zionism...please watch this movie and tell me who is the the true jew and who is the hateful racist?

Anti-Zionist Jews

[Kärnfysikern]

Dont worry, i wrote in in about 15 minutes for myspace, so it very simple....i dont fully understand quantum mechanics either, but i do understand the concept that the sub atominc world is ruled by a totally different set of laws as our phyiscal world...ill patch together some of my weird theories, though i have to say they are not very intellectually satisfying and leave alot of questions...Entanglement is just the theory that everything in the universe is connected...a few studies with particles have confirmed 1 of 2 things...either entanglement is real and our concept of space and time is an illusion convenient for us but not REAL things, or there must be faster than light travel.

You might be using another entanglement than I am used to hearing
Quantum entanglement usualy refer to that 2 particles can share the same wavefunction. Say for instance 2 photons traveling in oposit directions.

Now let those photons travel a lightyear away from eachother. If you now do a measurement on one of the photons it will collaps the wavefunction. What happens now is that you measure for instance the spin of one of the photons, when doing so the other photon has to get the oposit spin. So in some wierd way the two photons "communicate" instantly no matter the distance betwen them. One photon gets measured and tell the other what spin it should take.

Thats a sick...field...studying the birth of stars, pulsars, quasars, etc is a much more solid science and the knowledge weve acquired about them has a long way to go...i gotta say im jealous.

Unfortunaly what Im going to start with isnt quite as exotic Im just going to do a neutrino spectrum for a certain decay process that is tied into the tripple alpha process. It is interesting though because it is crucial for the formation of all heavy elements in the universe.

have any experiements been done on cold fission? off the top of my head, maybe making some isotopes of uranium or plutonium a little more stabe to make a much more controllable reaction? just kinda babbleing here...

I guess you could call fission cold in the shape it is now. You only need neutrons that are moderated to room temperature and a nice quantity of uranium or plutonium and the process runs itself. When nuclei fission energy is offcourse released that produce the heat. So it cant be cold in that manner, if it was cold it wouldnt realy be of any use since its the heat that we use to produce electricity. But starting a fission process is quite easy and requires no special temperature conditions.
The reactions we do use in our power plants are very controllable. Its probably one of the most controlled reactions that exist. If the reaction deviates the slightest from what we want it to be it isnt sustainable and drops again. Unless the plant is designed in a flawed way like the chernobol plant and the other russian plants moderated by graphite.

Cold fusion on the other hand, the whole idead of cold fusion was born when two chemists Fleischmann and Pons. They did a experiment and though that they where seeing fusion. This experiment was repeated in just about every university in the world and no one else could se any evidence of fusion. So it more or less died within a month of the discovery. Pons and Fleischmann was both more or less expelled from the scientific community because of this since they went to the newspapers before they tried to publish it in the scientific journals. They are now seen as cranks more or less. Kind of hars.

But in mainstream physics no one belives cold fusion is possible. It just isnt feasible through any mechanism we know about. Whenever you want to spark fusion you need to give the nuclei enough energy to be able to penetrate eachothers electrostatic repulsive field. You need to bring them so close so that the strong attractive nuclear force overpower the electromagnetic repulsive force.
The easiest way to give the nuclei enough energy is just to heat them tremendously just like in stars.
You could do it in particle accelerators aswell, but the energy to run the accelerators are many orders of magnitude larger than any energy released by the fusion.

The is something called muon catalysed fusion that can be done cold but it also require that we put more energy into it than we can get out of it.

Yep they calculate that the energy of a vacuum is about around 10 to the 71(notation)gm/cc...thats a tremendous amount of energy according to E=mc2...and this substance with no measurable mass having potential energy brings you to dark matter or anti-matter...a whole new can of worms...

The problem is that we have never been able to measure this vaccum energy. I think the high value is probably a error of theory.

Are you familiar with the "ultraviolet catastrophy" in classical electromagnetism? Before planc got the idea to invent light quanta the theories predicted that there should be a infinite ammount of electromagnetic radiation radiating out of everything. It took a genious to figure out what was wrong with those theories and then a new field of science was born.

I suspect the same is true of our current theories, the predictions doesnt quite match reality so we need a new genious that can come with some clever idea that brings us into a new year of science yet again.
Thats whats exciting, physics is heading into VERY exciting times no doubt. Beeing part of physics for the coming 20 years will probably be amazing. If you decide to study it you will have a rich and rewarding work

I know...i lived with two of them a healthy bit of skeptism is good, but you have to be open to infinite possibilities...thats one thing quantum mechanics teaches you...

Yeah:-) the problem is just that many of the things we realy want to think as possible gets kind of crushed when you get into the whole formalism. Physics is a very very strict dancing partner. It wont let you try and moves its not
comfortable with , but what is possible and those things that are not explained yet are the fascinating things.

[juicedOUTbrain]

You might be using another entanglement than I am used to hearing...Quantum entanglement usualy refer to that 2 particles can share the same wavefunction. Say for instance 2 photons traveling in oposit directions.

I was more reffering to the result of the experiment. If communication bewtween particles can be instantaneous, that leads me to believe that there is a faster than light travel, or that the reality we live in may not be so REAL. If time and space are Infinitly large in some form or another (which ist what i personally belive) that leads me to the conclusion that the perceived space between things must be infinitly small...its hard to wrap your head around it, i know...but i can elaborate if you dont understand what Im saying...humans are so used to finite, measurable things...when you bring real infinity into the equasion, everything seems to change...i know that time and space are convenient to us, but i question if they are real things, or just the embodiement of how the brain understands the world around us...

Unfortunaly what Im going to start with isnt quite as exotic Im just going to do a neutrino spectrum for a certain decay process that is tied into the tripple alpha process. It is interesting though because it is crucial for the formation of all heavy elements in the universe.

Hmm, is that the process that occurs in stars...I dont know much about it, but it sounds interesting...if you want to give me some links i could check it out...

BTW I was talking to pops last night, and we were talking about some of his old work...he was working on the magnetic suseptabily of carbon chars, and contributed a lot of work to the North Warning System, a radar system now used in the arctic...he went on to tell me that his ex-lab partner when he tought and studied physics at city college, actually went on to become the president of the national physical society in 2003...i thought that was interesting...

I guess you could call fission cold in the shape it is now. You only need neutrons that are moderated to room temperature and a nice quantity of uranium or plutonium and the process runs itself. When nuclei fission energy is offcourse released that produce the heat. So it cant be cold in that manner, if it was cold it wouldnt realy be of any use since its the heat that we use to produce electricity. But starting a fission process is quite easy and requires no special temperature conditions.
The reactions we do use in our power plants are very controllable. Its probably one of the most controlled reactions that exist. If the reaction deviates the slightest from what we want it to be it isnt sustainable and drops again. Unless the plant is designed in a flawed way like the chernobol plant and the other russian plants moderated by graphite.

like i said im not an expert on this stuff...i consided cold fission to be, the process of being able to split atoms without releasing all of the energy (storing it), i guess i was mistaken...

The is something called muon catalysed fusion that can be done cold but it also require that we put more energy into it than we can get out of it.

haha, well thats not very useful is it...sounds cool though ill definitly check it out.

The problem is that we have never been able to measure this vaccum energy. I think the high value is probably a error of theory.

Are you familiar with the "ultraviolet catastrophy" in classical electromagnetism? Before planc got the idea to invent light quanta the theories predicted that there should be a infinite ammount of electromagnetic radiation radiating out of everything. It took a genious to figure out what was wrong with those theories and then a new field of science was born.

I suspect the same is true of our current theories, the predictions doesnt quite match reality so we need a new genious that can come with some clever idea that brings us into a new year of science yet again.
Thats whats exciting, physics is heading into VERY exciting times no doubt. Beeing part of physics for the coming 20 years will probably be amazing. If you decide to study it you will have a rich and rewarding work

I often believe the same things...many assumptions people rely on in the world of physics are just that assumptions...a theory that meets all possible experimentation, but could be subject to a better fit replacement at any time.

I waiting for a final "theory of everything" that will tie relativity and quantum mechanics once and for all...im sure once its found it will be beautiful and very revealing about the true universe in which we live

I do plan on sticking with it, like i said i havent really gotten the ball rolling yet on what EXACTLY i want to do...but ive been into physics since i was a pretty young kid, and i doubt my interest will change now...

Yeah:-) the problem is just that many of the things we realy want to think as possible gets kind of crushed when you get into the whole formalism. Physics is a very very strict dancing partner. It wont let you try and moves its not comfortable with , but what is possible and those things that are not explained yet are the fascinating things

Well thats why quantum mechanics is so cool...experiments like the ones that resulted in entanglement show us there is a lot we dont know...and its cool to think about whats going on...

Have you ever heard of the quantum experiments with "superposition" whos results change just by the mere act of observing them? WTF?<---COOL VIDEO...

and heres a better desciription of the experiment

[HardBastard]

If you watch what the bleep do we know , down the rabbit hole they discuss a lot of these things. you can get it from torrentspy.com