israel and the white phosphorus use....guilty or not guilty

[*RAGE*]

Thanks MAD for putting that out there...

[amcon]

so i might conclude that those people were burnt within the giudlines.

well, i would ask the un... not me i am just looking at the info from the right governing body and parotting the info... so no to you sarcasim and yes to you question

[amcon]

I love how you guys claim to be "neutral" when you are anything but. "Oh we're for neither side, but Israel is always right and Palestinians are always wrong!"

who sais israel is right??? copy and paste that for us...

and we are just leveling the field form a info perspective if i listened to you israel would be considered devils, and hamas innocent humble people

[amcon]

i hear you, the question should be? under what circumstances are you defending your self?
my concern is why the excessive force? i completely understand the self defence mechanism but don't use the ideology of kill one to warn hundred.
i have no problem against no nation i just want to see everybody living in peace but to do that it takes genuine intentions.
i know that this conflict has been going on for years, and we can go on and on but that's not my point, my point is to show any nation or contry no matter their mistakes so they can learn from it by correcting it, by teaching their people to leave in peace, by standing up for the right thing even if its ganna be against my own govenment.

could we also apply that to hamas? if so i am all on board with you...

[amcon]

Amnesty International says that there is:

"indisputable evidence of widespread use of white phosphorus in densely-populated residential areas in Gaza City...Israel's use during the Gaza offensive of white phosphorus-— banned under international law for use near civilians—-was 'clear and undeniable'...Its repeated use in this manner, despite evidence of its indiscriminate effects and its toll on civilians, is a war crime."

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/israe...niable-amnesty

the un gave their rulling after this article

[*RAGE*]

who sais israel is right??? copy and paste that for us...

and we are just leveling the field form a info perspective if i listened to you israel would be considered devils, and hamas innocent humble people

I dont remember that either...

[amcon]

i thought you said you are not one sided.

so just because they are an ally to america it gives them the right to "denfend " them selves with whatever weapon that can do the job.

i am not either sided, however i do think a nation (either side has a right to defend them selves)

dont add america in to this they have nothing to do with it... yes, they gave them money - but usa didnt aim the guns at any one

[amcon]

Why is it ok for israel to defend themselves against Hamas but its not ok for Hamas to defend themselves...

they can defend them selves... go a head... no body said they couldnt, what they sould not do is terrorize them with 200+ rockets a day in to israel

[BuffedGuy]

well, i would ask the un... not me i am just looking at the info from the right governing body and parotting the info... so no to you sarcasim and yes to you question

Why is it that the pro-Israeli supporters ignore the UN and call it Anti-Semitic when we mention the numerous UN resolutions passed against Israel? No other country in the world has received as many UN resolutions against it than Israel. But when Iraq flouts a UN resolution, then you all cry bloody mary, but when Israel flouts more than any other country on earth, suddenly you are silent as lambs?

And please don't say you are neutral; this is disingenuous and hurts your credibility instead of bolstering it as you think.

Anyways, can you please show us proof that the United Nations absolved Israel of the white phosphorous issue? All I have been able to find is:

UN accuses Israel of using white phosphorous

So please show us the proof of your claim.

As for authoritative bodies that have said that Israel committed a war crime by using white phosphorous, I have already posted the statements of Amnesty International, which is a very well-respected organization.

The truth is that many of you are bigots. I say this openly to you all, so that you may reflect upon your bigotry. If Muslims do something, then you run around with your heads chopped off crying blood mary. If Israel does the exact same thing, then you generate excuses and justifications for it.

If Hamas had used white phosphorous, you would have been using it as a definitive proof for the evilness of Hamas. Yet when Israel does it, suddenly a different reaction. Why? This is bigotry, clear and simple. We Muslims are judged by another criterion. It is because your hearts hate us. You try to hide it with disclaimers and what not, but it shines through for all to see.

[amcon]

This is where you fall down amcon, read UN resolution 242...

answer the question did israel give the land back? or not?

[BuffedGuy]

they can defend them selves... go a head... no body said they couldnt, what they sould not do is terrorize them with 200+ rockets a day in to israel

I'm glad you are down to 200 rockets now. Unfortunately that is not accurate either. But I'm glad you have recanted from your previous erroneous view of 600 rockets. Maybe you will come down to reality eventually.

[BuffedGuy]

answer the question did israel give the land back? or not?

No it did not. It is not an independent sovereign nation. That is what "giving land back" means. Not creating a reservation/Bantustan with no sovereignty. Not one inch of land has been given by Israel. Not a single inch of Palestinian land is sovereign. This is a reality.

[amcon]

Congratulations!

You receive the "Most Ignorant ****" of the decade award.

Honest to god, you have no clue what you are even talking about. Please leave this thread. It is obvious you know nothing of the history behind these two and how this conflict came about.

You are either a troll or seriously one ignorant **** (as stated before).

may not be what you wanted to hear but he has the same right to talk(type) as any one else... and hamas has been refered to by many nations as evil... so, it is a valid point

[BuffedGuy]

may not be what you wanted to hear but he has the same right to talk(type) as any one else... and hamas has been refered to by many nations as evil... so, it is a valid point

And Israel has been referred to as evil by many nations. So is that now a valid point according to you? Of course not, since you show bigotry.

Every thing makes sense to you if it is defending Israel. If we reverse the argument and show you how it applies the other way around, suddenly you back out.

[amcon]

I'm glad you are down to 200 rockets now. Unfortunately that is not accurate either. But I'm glad you have recanted from your previous erroneous view of 600 rockets. Maybe you will come down to reality eventually.

200 avg , up to 450 never said 600 - but i will take that you should know better than me cause you follow it closer... damn, shame they are spending 10k on each rocket and wasting that money when the palistines need sooo much!!! that in it self should be proof of hamas being what they are claimed to be... btw - i am not a biggot, ok i am against evil people... not skin color

[amcon]

No it did not. It is not an independent sovereign nation. That is what "giving land back" means. Not creating a reservation/Bantustan with no sovereignty. Not one inch of land has been given by Israel. Not a single inch of Palestinian land is sovereign. This is a reality.

your playing on terms... israel was thought to be taking gaza and keeping it for them selves - kicking or kill all of its inhabitants ... did that happen?

[amcon]

And Israel has been referred to as evil by many nations. So is that now a valid point according to you? Of course not, since you show bigotry.

Every thing makes sense to you if it is defending Israel. If we reverse the argument and show you how it applies the other way around, suddenly you back out.

israel over time has showed lots of evil actions, lots... so, am i still a biggot? think not (never was) in this case i believe it was a offensive movement to, set up future defense... and i had no choice in their decisions

[BuffedGuy]

200 avg , up to 450 never said 600 - but i will take that you should know better than me cause you follow it closer...

The average was four per day, according to the Israeli Ministry's own website, which I linked to. As such, there is no debate. This is straight from the horse's mouth. You can't keep trotting around with false "facts" when I have already linked you to the Israeli Ministry's website. So the average per month was only 120 rockets, with almost no Israeli deaths resulting from it.

damn, shame they are spending 10k on each rocket and wasting that money when the palistines need sooo much!!!

Lame. I've already told you that each rocket cost about $400. Their most expensive rockets cost $600. Again, I linked you to a pro-Israeli website. Please stop regurgitating false "facts". There is no point in debating if you are just going to invent facts.

If you want to do that, fine, then I'll say that the rockets only cost 10 cents each.

that in it self should be proof of hamas being what they are claimed to be..

That in itself is not a proof for anything since all your facts are shoddy.

your playing on terms... israel was thought to be taking gaza and keeping it for them selves - kicking or kill all of its inhabitants ... did that happen?

I'm not playing any terms. This is a matter of the Palestinian dream, which I would not play any games with. We want sovereignty. We don't want to be placed on reservations/Bantustans. This is the crux of the issue, not word games.

[BuffedGuy]

And I'm still waiting for you to show proof that the UN said that Israel was OK in using white phosphorous. The way you throw around "facts", I of course have my doubts about your claim, since you have zero credibility.

[amcon]

We want sovereignty - your palestinian, so of coarse your totally one sided... i am just showing the other side

sorry for your nation bro, i hope they get it right - i am going to stop over to a good friend of my that is from palestine, he give me all the low downs on the real deal... he was a fighter over there and got out due to a horrible explosion near his face - from bombs he was building - i'll get his view and give it back to all

do you still have family over there?

i hope not doesnt seem like things will get any better

and tell them to stop pissing of a bigger better financed country... spend some of the rocket money on little kids

btw - are you also a hamas supporter?

[Matt]

answer the question did israel give the land back? or not?

You have had the answer, they havnt given the land back. Thats a fact that cant be argued with.

And i cant talk for Buffedguy, but i support any people that fight oppression, so i guess i support Hamas. But only as far as fighting israel..

[Dinosaur]

I just wanted to point out to you the meaning of prejudice, and to show you that you are in fact prejudiced when you said you are not. I never said that didnt apply to myself. I used proper logic and reasoning to express my statement. It's apparent by your rebuttal that this is way over your head and a good waste of my time.

and to BuffedGuy, why would my opinion on a purely hypothetical situation have any real value to it?

i am very disappointed to say that you did not bring anything new and still not answering the main questions.

I just wanted to point out to you the meaning of prejudice, and to show you that you are in fact prejudiced when you said you are not.

ok thank you for that, looks like i have to take some english classes to understand what the word prejusdice means.

i ask you to answer my question. how am i being prejudice? how? is it because i said that irael have used the white phosphorus. can you bring your prove from my post to show me that iam prejudiced. correct me if iam wrong.

It's apparent by your rebuttal that this is way over your head and a good waste of my time.

nothing new except repeating what you have said, i never new that talking about facts is good waste of time.

i just don't understand why talking about what israel has done in gaza would make me one sided. i hope somebody can make me underand this.

[Dinosaur]

may not be what you wanted to hear but he has the same right to talk(type) as any one else... and hamas has been refered to by many nations as evil... so, it is a valid point

i just never understood who gave this nations the right to judge others how could this nations make it so easy to put an organisation in terrorist list and take them out in a blink of an eye once they give up on their fighting or weapons, weather its hamas, north korea or hisb allah..etc.
so their message is just give up on your freedom and weapons and we will baptize you from your sins. i am still woundering who gave this contries the right to judge others or take their weapons away.
i understand now they just don't have the right to own weapons period. doen't that tell you something.
how would you feel if your neighboor came to you and said, you don't have the right to own a big knife or gun if you do, than you are acrminal, and if somebody tries to rob your house just call me i will be around. he could be the thief him self we never know.

[JiGGaMaN]

No it did not. It is not an independent sovereign nation. That is what "giving land back" means. Not creating a reservation/Bantustan with no sovereignty. Not one inch of land has been given by Israel. Not a single inch of Palestinian land is sovereign. This is a reality.

when was the last time palestine was a sovereign nation?

[Dinosaur]

i am not either sided, however i do think a nation (either side has a right to defend them selves)

dont add america in to this they have nothing to do with it... yes, they gave them money - but usa didnt aim the guns at any one

i am not adding america into this.
i want you to think very carfully about what iam going to say here.
lets say that egypt was giving weapons and financial help to hamas to fight israel.
what would you say about the egypt government. i will tell you for sure what you are going to hear, egypt shoud stop helping terrosits, egypt is helping torrorism, epypt is funding terrorism i could go on and on...
why would it be ok for america to help israel and a crime to help hamas.

if you ganna tell me that hamas is a terrorist group iam ganna tell you that they were elected democratically to the governement and few contries like rassia and france have engaged in talks with them. others were pressurized by the U.S not to engage in talks with them.
so please before you asnwer my question i want you to think twice before write.

[BuffedGuy]

when was the last time palestine was a sovereign nation?

This is a deceitful question, often used by Zionists. Let me answer it very clearly for you:

There is a concept called popular sovereignty and consent of the governed, which means that a people have a right to decide for themselves who rules over them. For example, Californians consent to the idea that they are ruled by the American government. So it is incorrect to say that they don't practice popular sovereignty or the consent of the governed is flouted. The point is that the people get to decide who rules over them. It does not mean that California has to be an independent nation by itself. Rather, it simply means that the people get to decide popularly and there must be consent of the governed.

So to answer your question, Palestinians had popular sovereignty and consent of the people before the British occupied the land. They were willingly a part of the great Ottoman Empire, the blessed empire that we Muslims all miss sourly. The consent of the governed was taken away when the British occupied the land, and through Zionist arm-twisting was turned into Israel.

[Dinosaur]

could we also apply that to hamas? if so i am all on board with you...

absolutely, if they invaded israel and killed innocent civilians i would be standing against that.

[BuffedGuy]

We want sovereignty - your palestinian, so of coarse your totally one sided... i am just showing the other side

You only show one side, yet claim to be neutral. You're not neutral, so please stop claiming to be.

As for me, yes I am pro-Palestinian because they are the occupied peoples. If they were occupiers--despite the fact that they are my people--I would oppose them, just like the Jews Against Zionism oppose their own people.

do you still have family over there?

I am not Palestinian, but Muslim. They are my brothers and sisters by faith.

btw - are you also a hamas supporter?

I have said it numerous times that I vociferously oppose their methods. I am a supporter of the Palestinian people and their right to be a free people. Occupation must die.

[BuffedGuy]

absolutely, if they invaded israel and killed innocent civilians i would be standing against that.

Exactly. Prophet Muhammad [s] told us to help Muslims if they are oppressed or are the oppressors. His disciples asked: how can we help a Muslim if he is an oppressor? And Prophet Muhammad [s] replied: by stopping him from oppressing. If a Muslim oppresses someone else, then he earns evil against his own soul, so by preventing him from oppressing, you are not only helping the one who he is oppressing, but you are also helping him (the oppressor himself), by removing the evil deeds he is earning for himself.

[BuffedGuy]

People vilify the Palestinians for voting in Hamas. Yes, I disagree with the tactics of Hamas, but it doesn't mean that all Palestinians love terrorism. Rather, they are an oppressed and occupied peoples who had to choose between the PLO (a highly corrupt party of Uncle Toms) and Hamas. It is the same thing if, let's imagine the Irish people voting in the IRA. The IRA engaged in terrorism as well, just to give some examples:

* Bloody Friday: a 1972 attack in Belfast in which 22 bombs, set off in just over an hour, killed 9 people and injured 130.
* In 1979, the IRA assassinated Queen Elizabeth II's uncle, Lord Mountbatten, and three others by blowing up his boat.
* In 1998, an IRA car bombing killed 29 people in Northern Ireland. The attack was severe enough to provoke threats by the Irish government that paramilitary groups must declare a cease-fire.

I'm not saying that the IRA is great. I'm saying that all oppressed and occupied peoples react in the SAME way. It's not rocket science. (lol @ the pun...)

[Dinosaur]

People vilify the Palestinians for voting in Hamas. Yes, I disagree with the tactics of Hamas, but it doesn't mean that all Palestinians love terrorism. Rather, they are an oppressed and occupied peoples who had to choose between the PLO (a highly corrupt party of Uncle Toms) and Hamas. It is the same thing as Irish people voting in the IRA. The IRA engaged in terrorism as well, just to give some examples:

* Bloody Friday: a 1972 attack in Belfast in which 22 bombs, set off in just over an hour, killed 9 people and injured 130.
* In 1979, the IRA assassinated Queen Elizabeth II's uncle, Lord Mountbatten, and three others by blowing up his boat.
* In 1998, an IRA car bombing killed 29 people in Northern Ireland. The attack was severe enough to provoke threats by the Irish government that paramilitary groups must declare a cease-fire.

I'm not saying that the IRA is great. I'm saying that all oppressed and occupied peoples react in the SAME way. It's not rocket science. (lol @ the pun...)

well said. when is the time that people ganna wake up and start opening their eyes not their ears.

[xlxBigSexyxlx]

I need to get me some of this stuff.
So I can kill terrorists

[amcon]

i just never understood who gave this nations the right to judge others how could this nations make it so easy to put an organisation in terrorist list and take them out in a blink of an eye once they give up on their fighting or weapons, weather its hamas, north korea or hisb allah..etc.
so their message is just give up on your freedom and weapons and we will baptize you from your sins. i am still woundering who gave this contries the right to judge others or take their weapons away.
i understand now they just don't have the right to own weapons period. doen't that tell you something.
how would you feel if your neighboor came to you and said, you don't have the right to own a big knife or gun if you do, than you are acrminal, and if somebody tries to rob your house just call me i will be around. he could be the thief him self we never know.

well, they hamas took claims for lots of bombings so that is a easy question - they did that to them selves... as for who get to decied the rules - the ones with the most power,

and really? (about my neighbor...???) first, we as a society to that all the time it is call probation.

[amcon]

i am not adding america into this.
i want you to think very carfully about what iam going to say here.
lets say that egypt was giving weapons and financial help to hamas to fight israel.
what would you say about the egypt government. i will tell you for sure what you are going to hear, egypt shoud stop helping terrosits, egypt is helping torrorism, epypt is funding terrorism i could go on and on...
why would it be ok for america to help israel and a crime to help hamas.

if you ganna tell me that hamas is a terrorist group iam ganna tell you that they were elected democratically to the governement and few contries like rassia and france have engaged in talks with them. others were pressurized by the U.S not to engage in talks with them.
so please before you asnwer my question i want you to think twice before write.

that would be nice if it were true... are you saying hamas is not a terrorist gov? (and also think twice before you answer)

[amcon]

This is a deceitful question, often used by Zionists. Let me answer it very clearly for you:

There is a concept called popular sovereignty and consent of the governed, which means that a people have a right to decide for themselves who rules over them. For example, Californians consent to the idea that they are ruled by the American government. So it is incorrect to say that they don't practice popular sovereignty or the consent of the governed is flouted. The point is that the people get to decide who rules over them. It does not mean that California has to be an independent nation by itself. Rather, it simply means that the people get to decide popularly and there must be consent of the governed.

So to answer your question, Palestinians had popular sovereignty and consent of the people before the British occupied the land. They were willingly a part of the great Ottoman Empire, the blessed empire that we Muslims all miss sourly. The consent of the governed was taken away when the British occupied the land, and through Zionist arm-twisting was turned into Israel.

thats just one sides view... others would say that it was not "zionists" it was every one trying to help them become a educated people(educated people - measured to the british standards) in return british gov would tax them and take natural rescorces

[amcon]

absolutely, if they invaded israel and killed innocent civilians i would be standing against that.

that is a very fair position - we def agree on that

[amcon]

Exactly. Prophet Muhammad [s] told us to help Muslims if they are oppressed or are the oppressors. His disciples asked: how can we help a Muslim if he is an oppressor? And Prophet Muhammad [s] replied: by stopping him from oppressing. If a Muslim oppresses someone else, then he earns evil against his own soul, so by preventing him from oppressing, you are not only helping the one who he is oppressing, but you are also helping him (the oppressor himself), by removing the evil deeds he is earning for himself.

Jesus says that "and thou shalt love the Lord the God with all thy haeart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: the is the first commandment. and the second is like, namely this, thou shalt love thy neighbour as thy self. there is none other commandments greater than these."

that should be all our goals! period!

and here lies the problem "and from the days of john the baptist until now the kingdom of heaven(should say kingdom or heaven on earth, i have good proof of this, land of cannan) suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force."

here is what will happen to Israel... they (and i believe it will happen sooner than later) will be crushed and be either kicked out of there territory or put under a very harsh rule... 2/3s of them will be killed...

and by the way remember jews, loath people like me - because i believe that the jews were shelved to give the gentiles(non jews) a chance at Grace from God.

we are just seeing it all played out

[BuffedGuy]

thats just one sides view... others would say that it was not "zionists" it was every one trying to help them become a educated people(educated people - measured to the british standards) in return british gov would tax them and take natural rescorces

Wow, lol. You were seriously born about a couple hundred years late. That kind of White Man's Burden talk died long time ago. Yes Big White Man, please educate us Brown Brothers.

[*RAGE*]

Buffedguy, I have a question for you Please keep you answer to the one question. When a bomb or rocket explodes does it injury and kill all the people around it. (no matter what kind of bomb or rocket it is.....thank you

[*RAGE*]

buffedguy, I am sorry for this second question but ment to ask it with the other one....again please just answer the question? when the bomb or rocket goes off can it tell what it is going to injury or kill?