do you guys beleive that there is life after death???

[skinjob]

I reckon most of the bible was written by twisted old men

[skinjob]

The King James was the first bit of political spin ever devised. what a horrible, ugly book.

[skinjob]

even more embarassing is that James was a Scot. o dear. the shame. o well. at least we got JLB later on.

[DBarcelo]

I reckon most of the bible was written by twisted old men

If you believe in the Bible and if you know the Bible, it says that it was written by the hand of man but inspired by God himself. So, they could have been twisted old men really, but with God's guidence in doing something, their own personal imperfections mean nothing and have no impact on the Bible.

[DBarcelo]

The King James was the first bit of political spin ever devised. what a horrible, ugly book.

The King James version has been accepted by almost every Christian group as being the most accurate version of the Holy Scriptures. If the King James Version is the most accurate version, then how could it also be the first bit of political spin? Other, inaccurate versions could be considered to have some political spin.

Unless you're assuming that the King James Version is the first Bible and that the Bible itself is the first bit of political spin ever, but then the Bible really isn't political in nature, even though there are parts that refer to the government and politics, but it does talk about the fall of government. So if it were written by man to promote politics or to make people more accepting of government, why would they spell out the end of their own government?

[DBarcelo]

even more embarassing is that James was a Scot. o dear. the shame. o well. at least we got JLB later on.

What does James being a Scott have to do with anything?? Why would that be a shame?? King James didn't write any part of the Bible, he just financed the scribes that coppied the Bible and duplicated it.

[Maraxus]

Its comforting to think that there is life after death. Although I really doubt it. I guess I'll just be taking a dirtnap when I die. Thats why youve got to live up life guys.

[CutMeUp]

anyone ever seen the movie Stigmata? that explains it all. the catholic church hides parts of the bible in order to keep their church going. in the movie there are scriptures left out of the bible that have god saying that we do not need church, but that he is all around us all the time and therefore no need for walls to harness his love.

churches exist bc people like to be accepted. and in order to be accepted there has to be a group to accept you. so people go to church to be accepted. IMO, church has little or nothing to do with what people believe. most people go to church bc "they are supposed to".

ive come full circle bc i went from not believing at all to finally coming to my senses and realizing that there has to be a god. there is no other explanation as to how the universe was created. on the other hand i dont think that god plays a very large role in day to day life. i see it like a movie. he set the universe up the way he wanted and pressed play. its up to us now. i have a theory that he does this over and over and each master species eventually kills itself off and then he starts over.

[max2extreme]

Tobey,

I know you are aware that my post was not meant to inflame or stir things up. I was merely stating my personal beliefs. I respect your faith and I respect what you believe. You are a valued member of this board, you are very articulate and intelligent and I truly understand and appreciate your standpoint. Your points are valid your faith is evident. I hope I didn't offend you my friend.

You may be right about Satan. Maybe he is responsible. Personally, I beleive that most humans are good but there are people who are bad....truly bad. The human brain is not even close to being fully understood. I think it is too easy to blame the many evil, vile unspeakable acts perpetrated by humans on a higher (lower) power. I believe there is a scientific explanation, but we are still very far from understanding why some people do what they do.

I guess I find it most difficult to believe in the old testament. To me, personally, the stories of Noah and Moses sound more like myths (Ala Odin, Zuess). I am a firm believer in Darwins theory of "Natural Selection" and as such I cannot even fathom the idea of creationism. To each his own, I do not begrudge anybody their personal beliefs. I'm a moral person, I respect others, I respect nature (I love animals), I try to be helpful, I'm a family man, I hold my wife in the highest regard and I have many friends who I cherish. However, I don't attend mass and I don't pray. I think/hope there is a higher power. My point is simply this...I know I'm a good person and I know there is a place for me in heaven.

Pete

Pete and others who may believe this. This is not a flame, I once believed this too, but I've learned (and still learning, everyday learning) (and I havnt finished reading the thread if others said this, I apologize, but what you said about "...I know I'm a good person and I know there is a place for me in heaven" is totally wrong. We can not get to heaven thru our own actions. If we could "work" our way to heaven, then we wouldn't need a Savior. Jesus would not have had to die in our place. But we do need a Savior because all our good works still fall short of the Glory of God

John 14:6 "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No on comes to the Father except through me."

Isaiah 57:12 "I will expose your righteousness and your works, and they will NOT benefit you"

Isaiah 64:6 "Your righteous acts are like filthy rags"

So how is it that you get to heaven, thru grace.

Ephesians 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, its is a gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast."

Romans 10:9 "if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved"

So its easy...pray and ask Jesus to save you, confess you're a sinner, believe in it, and you will go to heaven.

BTW, if you havnt read the "Left Behind" series of books, They are GREAT!

later,

max

[Tock]

So its easy...pray and ask Jesus to save you, confess you're a sinner, believe in it, and you will go to heaven.

LOL . . . so you're saying that if an asshole like Adolph Hitler had confessed he was a sinner, he would have gone to heaven, while a saint like Mother Teresa who devoted her life to caring for the poor would have gone to writhe in the eternal agonies of hellfire and ****ation, all because she had been "mistaken" in her theology?
If that is true, then what does that say of the nature of the god who created this bizarre scheme?

BTW, if you havnt read the "Left Behind" series of books, They are GREAT!

And if you look at the book's dust jacket carefully, you'll find a disclaimer, "This is a work of fiction."

--Tock

[Pale Horse]

Yes I believe in life after death, even for my beloved Tock! Everyone knows why I do so no need to explain. I believe that the creator God will make allowances for us all to make it "wiggle room" if you will. To him we are all infantile anyway, he has to understand we are basically morons compared to him .

[max2extreme]

LOL . . . so you're saying that if an asshole like Adolph Hitler had confessed he was a sinner, he would have gone to heaven, while a saint like Mother Teresa who devoted her life to caring for the poor would have gone to writhe in the eternal agonies of hellfire and ****ation, all because she had been "mistaken" in her theology?
If that is true, then what does that say of the nature of the god who created this bizarre scheme?






And if you look at the book's dust jacket carefully, you'll find a disclaimer, "This is a work of fiction."

--Tock

Yes, if Hitler confessed his sins. If he truly repented. Believed in what the bible teaches and that the only way into heaven is thru Jesus, then yes, Hitler too would be allowed in heaven. This shows the forgiving nature of our god.

And yes, if you look at the book's dust jacket carefully, or whatever, just look at it, it says that. Ok. I dont know. If you say so. I never said it was anything. I just said it was a good series. Its a fictional novel with christian references.

-Max

[Tock]

Yes, if Hitler confessed his sins. If he truly repented. Believed in what the bible teaches and that the only way into heaven is thru Jesus, then yes, Hitler too would be allowed in heaven. This shows the forgiving nature of our god.
-Max

It also shows your god's cruel, vindictive nature.
Why punish someone like Mother Teresa with a thousand eternities of unspeakable agony? So she had a different interpretation of the Bible than you do . . . is that a reason to send a charitable, loving person to writhe in hellfire and brimstone?
According to Evangelical theology, yes, it is.
IMHO, any god that works things that way is not worthy of human reverence and worship.
-Tock

[Tock]

I believe that the creator God will make allowances for us all to make it "wiggle room" if you will.

Got a scripture to back that up?
-Tock

[Pale Horse]

Nope, that's my hope...I can dream can't I?

[Salesianito]

I just believe in god.......

[max2extreme]

It also shows your god's cruel, vindictive nature.
Why punish someone like Mother Teresa with a thousand eternities of unspeakable agony? So she had a different interpretation of the Bible than you do . . . is that a reason to send a charitable, loving person to writhe in hellfire and brimstone?
According to Evangelical theology, yes, it is.
IMHO, any god that works things that way is not worthy of human reverence and worship.
-Tock

This goes back to the topic of 'You cant get into heaven based on your works.' To us, yes, Mother Teresa is a great person. But the best works we could do still falls short of the Glory of God. Thats just how it is. Its in the bible. Its like this, lets say you are a GREAT person. (which im not saying you arent..haha but just go with this. *smile*) and you are law abiding, and blah blah. lets say you are a ruler of a small town. you decide who lives in your town and who doesnt. you dont want no trouble or anything. well, lets say you have a group of people, lets give a number of 50 people. And we'll keep their sin to only one, all of them are murderers. And all of them kill, would kill, have killed or whatever for no reason at all. Just because. But there is one person who murders only if someone gets mad at him. To that group of 50 people, that one guy is a pretty nice guy. He murders for a reason. If anyone gets into this town of yours, its him. Are you going to let him into your town? knowing that he is a murderer and has murdered and if he gets mad, hes gonna murder your people. Thats how I can rationalize it. We are that group of 50 people. To us, there are great people that we believe should get into heaven. True its not murder that we are talking about with Mother Theresa, but in God's eyes, we are all sinners. And only after we repent and thru jesus will he let us into heaven. Just as if this guy truly repented, you'd let him into your town. (repent as in seeing the repentance as God does. Of course as people, we cant see if someone truly repents, but God can).

Max

[max2extreme]

Got a scripture to back that up?
-Tock

"I will expose your righteousness and your works, and they will not benefit you"
(Isaiah 57:12)


no wiggle room. We have all this hope that our good deeds will get us into heaven. We hope there's this 'wiggle room'...but if you believe in heaven. And you believe in God. As seems most people in this thread do, why is it so hard to believe in the bible, god's word?

-max

[Tock]

"I will expose your righteousness and your works, and they will not benefit you"
(Isaiah 57:12)


no wiggle room. We have all this hope that our good deeds will get us into heaven. We hope there's this 'wiggle room'...but if you believe in heaven. And you believe in God. As seems most people in this thread do, why is it so hard to believe in the bible, god's word?

-max

Cool.
Give Heaven to a mass murderer like Adolph Hitler who repents on his deathbed, and send Mother Teresa to an eternity of unspeakable torment after a lifetime of caring for the poor and needy.
If that is the message of the Bible, who f---- needs it?
-Tock

[Pale Horse]

Max I believe in God and his word. I also believe that we are but infants in his eyes. Intolerance is a sin and judgment is a sin and I am in no position to say what is right or wrong for others but to lead my life in Gods word. I think that God wants EVERYONE to make it to heaven, he doesn't want to lose a single soul. Repentance is an example of "wiggle room". God is not fatalistic but full of Grace.

[max2extreme]

1victor, i think we are talking about the same thing. I believe god wants everyone to make it to heaven as well. And everything in your post. I guess I was still talking more about those who feel their good deeds will get them to heaven. If by wiggle room someone meant "I believe in god. Im a good person. I try not to sin. Ill get into heaven." then no, thats wrong. But i dont think you meant that now...If you repent, and for those who misunderstand, by repentance, its not just "im sorry" by repentance, its a change of lifestyle that because of and causes you not to want to sin again, then yes, repent, truly mean it, sometimes "mess up", etc repent...and you truly are a christian, etc etc..then you'll go to heaven, that how I believe too.

Tock, of course its going to seem totally outrageous because of the extreme examples you have chosen, but it still stands. Of course (i believe) mother teresa is in heaven now, but you never know her true thoughts. But by true repentance, you are forgiven. Thru Jesus Christ. By true repentance, hitler on his death bed, god would know, that if hitler was given another chance to go back, he would not do any of that again, then the gates are open. If hitler repented just because hes dying, but truly if he werent dying, hed start back or given another chance would do the same as he did, then god would see this and he would be sent to hell.

You ask "who F---- needs it?" And Im as serious as I can get. Everyone. Human life is short. But eternity is well, eternity. Revelations should scare a non-christian. Read it and just imagine, what if? What if all this is true. read what you are going to go thru. the hell. literally and figuratively. Perhaps someone who reads this and does the what if, and it scares them, will read the bible more, learn, and truly believe...

-max

[Pale Horse]

Now I understand what you meant.

[Jantzen4k]

if you dont believe, just watch The Travel Channel's special on Haunted Hotels. That sh*t is scary. This guy has a picture of a spirit on the ceiling. people claimed that its just smoke but he claims that noone smokes in the building. made me a believer

[Cyto78]

I've seen ghosts twice in my life as clear as day........I have also experienced a few other extreme events in my life that has made me conclude within my own heart that yes there is a god.


Interesting.....

Revelation 14:10 says, " . . . and he shall be tormented with fire and BRIMSTONE . . ." And Job 18 describes the " . . . PLACE of him that knoweth not God" (vs 21), in verse 15 as, " . . . BRIMSTONE shall be scattered upon his habitation." Do you know what brimstone is? It's sulfur. And do you know where sulfur or brimstone is found? INSIDE THIS EARTH! According to the book Volcanoes by Pierre Kohler (p. 43), when Mt. St Helens erupted in 1980 — 150,000 tons of sulfurous gas was ejected! Job is the oldest book in the Bible, written over 3,000 years ago, and yet Job knew what science wouldn't know for years — inside this earth is BRIMSTONE!

Nature magazine recently discovered (July 2002) what the Bible knew over 3,000 years ago. Inside this earth is "fire and brimstone":


http://www.av1611.org/hell.html

[Badgerman]

I believe God can save every person and that He can reconcile everything to Himself through Jesus. Now there may be an order to the resurrection, but God owns everything....made everything including evil.... and will save everything.....even Judas even Satan.....God can fix it all.
The lake of fire is a purification.....God will purify His creation.
Good and evil are just opposites so that we learn the difference. Can't know one without the other.

[Pale Horse]

Bader, WOW! Very insightful you knocked me for a loop!

[Badgerman]

Bader, WOW! Very insightful you knocked me for a loop!

wierd, huh?

[Pale Horse]

Yes indeed. I never would have guessed.

[Badgerman]

Yes indeed. I never would have guessed.

Bro....when you reach the point of believeing God does everything, all the philosophical contradictions fall away......there's no "problem of evil" ....no deciding who made a real decision for the Lord......no talk about who goes to hell and who doesn't....and it relieves YOU of the agony of whether you have enough faith......it just strips away all the bulls*** that man has attached to God. Anyway, I believe it's pretty simple that way......sure the true believers
will be in the first resurrection.....but if you dig around there are a couple of verses......one talks about the believers begat by the will of God being the "firstfruits of ALL creation"........this is James 1:18......then if you look at how firstfruits work(it's also good to look at the feasts of Israel)......it basically says if the firstfruit is holy then the whole shebang is holy.......so it goes.....Jesus...THE firstfruit.....believers the firstfruit of ALL creation.......which in turn makes the whole creation holy
And I think Romans 11:16 supports that notion.


Now I know this is kind of unconventional, but to me it is the only way I can reconcile everything and not commit intellectual suicide.....

[hung-solo]

do you guys beleive that there is life after death???

i beleive in god but seems like the older you get you ask these questions on and on and no proof or answer to all of this.

nope i believe what the native americans thought," you give back to the earth, what earth gave to you." therefore in a sense i guess you do live on one way or another..

[hung-solo]

I believe God can save every person and that He can reconcile everything to Himself through Jesus. Now there may be an order to the resurrection, but God owns everything....made everything including evil.... and will save everything.....even Judas even Satan.....God can fix it all.
The lake of fire is a purification.....God will purify His creation.
Good and evil are just opposites so that we learn the difference. Can't know one without the other.

if god can fix it all why cant he fix this whole mess we got ourselves into? or why couldnt he save the african americans back in the day? or even the native americans?? why couldnt he save those poor children held captive in russia? why couldnt god save my uncle, that was a **** good christian, from getting slain infront of his little boys and wife???? huh?? where is the answer to that?? you guys say god works in mysterious ways..... does he now? sorry i had to vent for sec.

[Pale Horse]

Without purpose life has no meaning. To all that do not believe I would ask what is your puropse in life? What drives you? What consumes you and keeps you moving forward. It could be a good thing like love etc.. or it could be anger or hate..etc..

I ask all of you what is YOUR purpose in life. Please no shallow funny answers, I am genuinely interested in your responses.

[hung-solo]

It also shows your god's cruel, vindictive nature.
Why punish someone like Mother Teresa with a thousand eternities of unspeakable agony? So she had a different interpretation of the Bible than you do . . . is that a reason to send a charitable, loving person to writhe in hellfire and brimstone?
According to Evangelical theology, yes, it is.
IMHO, any god that works things that way is not worthy of human reverence and worship.
-Tock

very nicely put tock! but that goes back to the "blind faith" i truly believe those are the ones suffering..

[Badgerman]

if god can fix it all why cant he fix this whole mess we got ourselves into? or why couldnt he save the african americans back in the day? or even the native americans?? why couldnt he save those poor children held captive in russia? why couldnt god save my uncle, that was a **** good christian, from getting slain infront of his little boys and wife???? huh?? where is the answer to that?? you guys say god works in mysterious ways..... does he now? sorry i had to vent for sec.

It will all be fixed in due time, bro. Without a standard, how would you know the difference btween good and evil? Without God there would be no morality.....there would be no good and evil......just life......the very fact that you are outraged by the wrong should get ya thinkin.

[MMC78]

I for one know that I am going to heaven. So if any of you guys want good refs, you'd better be *extra* nice to me.

[Tock]

Without purpose life has no meaning. To all that do not believe I would ask what is your puropse in life? What drives you? What consumes you and keeps you moving forward. It could be a good thing like love etc.. or it could be anger or hate..etc..

I ask all of you what is YOUR purpose in life. Please no shallow funny answers, I am genuinely interested in your responses.

There is no supernaturally established purpose in life.
All that we humans are, is a lump of complex bio-electrical chemical reactions, and that's it.
If there's any more, you gotta show how your reasoning is reasonable . . .
-Tock

[Tock]

Without God there would be no morality.....

Lots of societies down through the years have done just fine without the Christian gods. Conversely, lots of societies WITH the christian religion live in misery--look at Europe during the Dark Ages, the Inquisition, the Roman Catholic Church's attempt to eridicate Democracy, all these crooked TV evangelists, child-molesting priests and ministers . . . I daresay that the Christian religion hasn't added anything to our society but fear and guilt.

The Bible's version of morality sucks big time . . . as we've covered in another thread, according to the Bible, it's possible for a person who spent his entire life tormenting other people to repent on his deathbed and go to heaven. But, a if person like Mother Teresa devotes her life to caring for the poor and homeless, but does not beleive and practice the correct Protestant theology, she's gonna be sent to burn in Hell forever.
Doesn't sound like Morality to me.

-Tock

[Badgerman]

Lots of societies down through the years have done just fine without the Christian gods. Conversely, lots of societies WITH the christian religion live in misery--look at Europe during the Dark Ages, the Inquisition, the Roman Catholic Church's attempt to eridicate Democracy, all these crooked TV evangelists, child-molesting priests and ministers . . . I daresay that the Christian religion hasn't added anything to our society but fear and guilt.

The Bible's version of morality sucks big time . . . as we've covered in another thread, according to the Bible, it's possible for a person who spent his entire life tormenting other people to repent on his deathbed and go to heaven. But, a if person like Mother Teresa devotes her life to caring for the poor and homeless, but does not beleive and practice the correct Protestant theology, she's gonna be sent to burn in Hell forever.
Doesn't sound like Morality to me.

-Tock

I never said that......one of the earliest practioners of Christianity was a universalist....Origen......plus the bible really says you will be judged according to your works......without works....faith is dead.......Also, true faith and Roman Catholicism are not necessarily the same thing.....do the works of the Inquisition show true faith??....no.....plus hell is referred to as "agelasting" not forever.......so when you hear the claim of I'm saved....don't take it at face value.....do the works fit the mouth.....most of the time they don't.....

[Pale Horse]

Tock, remove God from the picture what is your purpose, what drives you?

[Tock]

Tock, remove God from the picture what is your purpose, what drives you?

At the bottom of it all, it's the age-old time-honored principles of pain and pleasure. Add in a few delusions, and that's about all there is.

You might think that's depressing, not having the promises of heaven, but since there's no substantiation for those allegations, all we can say is that aside from a beleiver's "wishful thinking," it's all pie-in-the-sky.

But it's not depressing at all, though, because just as there is no eternal heaven, there is no eternal punishment either. Any cause you may have had to be afraid of the afterlife is gone. Actually, the molecules that make up your body will decompose and become one with the environment, and those molecules will become a part of trees, flowers, bugs, even drinking water. What you are now will eventually be recycled into other forms of life, and probably into parts of other people.

The upshot is . . . ya better have a good life in the here and now, because this is the only chance you're gonna get. Love your family and friends, enrich yourself with relationships (important to me), look after your material needs, and enjoy whatever arts that bring you into harmony with your surroundings.
That, plus a few cycles of dBol and Test, what else is there, besides fiction?

-Tock