do you guys beleive that there is life after death???

[max2extreme]

I believe God can save every person and that He can reconcile everything to Himself through Jesus. Now there may be an order to the resurrection, but God owns everything....made everything including evil.... and will save everything.....even Judas even Satan.....God can fix it all.
The lake of fire is a purification.....God will purify His creation.
Good and evil are just opposites so that we learn the difference. Can't know one without the other.

The bible totally contradicts this. It says nothing about judas or satan being saved. God did create everything. I guess you could say God created evil, or at any rate, he allowed it. But, and this is an honest question, where did you come up with this post? The lake of fire is purification? What are you basing this on? Satan will be saved?? Are you saying that for now, good and evil are just opposites so that we learn the difference, but in the end everyone is going to heaven? If so, where are you getting this? Its nowhere in the bible. Things like this may spark some 'human minds' but as christians, everything should be judged according to the bible. This really isnt insightful to me. Its just talk. And please dont turn this into me flaming you, im not. Im just conversing and listening, and giving what I think.

-max

[max2extreme]

nope i believe what the native americans thought," you give back to the earth, what earth gave to you." therefore in a sense i guess you do live on one way or another..

I dont believe "earth gave to me"...I believe God gave to me, thus I give all back to God.

-Max

[max2extreme]

if god can fix it all why cant he fix this whole mess we got ourselves into? or why couldnt he save the african americans back in the day? or even the native americans?? why couldnt he save those poor children held captive in russia? why couldnt god save my uncle, that was a **** good christian, from getting slain infront of his little boys and wife???? huh?? where is the answer to that?? you guys say god works in mysterious ways..... does he now? sorry i had to vent for sec.

When I read your post hung, I thought immediatly of the bible verse that says "do not test your god". God can fix the mess, etc etc. Im sorry you had a loss in your family. I have too. Im not saying I know how you feel, I dont know you or anything, but you cant let losses cause you to turn against God. The point is that we are not robots and God has no intentions of controlling us. He wants us to make our own decisions and glorify him. God doesnt make bad things happen, he allows them to happen. Your uncle was a christian, thats great. Something bad happened to him, that sucks. But now hes in heaven because of the choices he made.

-max

[max2extreme]

I never said that......one of the earliest practioners of Christianity was a universalist....Origen......plus the bible really says you will be judged according to your works......without works....faith is dead.......Also, true faith and Roman Catholicism are not necessarily the same thing.....do the works of the Inquisition show true faith??....no.....plus hell is referred to as "agelasting" not forever.......so when you hear the claim of I'm saved....don't take it at face value.....do the works fit the mouth.....most of the time they don't.....

Kind of. It doesnt say you will be judged by your works. Thats just another way of saying you'll get into heaven based on your works. BUT, by being a good christian and living as such, you're works will reflect that goodness.

-max

[max2extreme]

At the bottom of it all, it's the age-old time-honored principles of pain and pleasure. Add in a few delusions, and that's about all there is.

You might think that's depressing, not having the promises of heaven, but since there's no substantiation for those allegations, all we can say is that aside from a beleiver's "wishful thinking," it's all pie-in-the-sky.

But it's not depressing at all, though, because just as there is no eternal heaven, there is no eternal punishment either. Any cause you may have had to be afraid of the afterlife is gone. Actually, the molecules that make up your body will decompose and become one with the environment, and those molecules will become a part of trees, flowers, bugs, even drinking water. What you are now will eventually be recycled into other forms of life, and probably into parts of other people.

The upshot is . . . ya better have a good life in the here and now, because this is the only chance you're gonna get. Love your family and friends, enrich yourself with relationships (important to me), look after your material needs, and enjoy whatever arts that bring you into harmony with your surroundings.
That, plus a few cycles of dBol and Test, what else is there, besides fiction?

-Tock

Tock, I have a question that I dont need an answer to. I just want to ask it so you read it and only you will know. Does the question of God, Heaven, and Hell ever pop into your head? If so, do you ever think that its God trying to put a seed in? I mean I just wonder why such a thought would be placed there because you seem to have such stern, not anti religious, but you know what i mean, thoughts, that the question of there really being a God should not at all pop in your head.

What would it take to make you kinda believe, or almost, or think again about your thoughts of what the bible teaches? (this question it would be good for a reply, but up to you man..)

-Max

[Tock]

The bible totally contradicts this. It says . . .

Who cares what the bible says?
Only people who have FAITH in it do. The rest of us don't.
--Tock

[Tock]

Tock, I have a question that I dont need an answer to. I just want to ask it so you read it and only you will know. Does the question of God, Heaven, and Hell ever pop into your head?

I holler "Jezuz Christ" when pissed or in the middle of "intimate encounters." I am frequently reminded of other people's religion, but left to my own business, no, the thought would never enter my mind.

What would it take to make you kinda believe, or almost, or think again about your thoughts of what the bible teaches? (this question it would be good for a reply, but up to you man..)
-Max

Why should anyone worry what I think about the bible? I have my opinion, based on years of study (prompted by lively debate), and unless someone re-writes the damm thing to make it beleivable, don't expect my thoughts on it to change.

I already know what it would take for you to change your opinion. Until (1) you assert your courage to think freely, and (2) are able to think unencumbered without being socially shunned by the church people on whom your social life is so dependant, and (3) have the support of unbeleivers to help you through your psychologocial dependancies on your religious fantasy, you ain't (can't) tear yourself away from your fundamentalism.

On one hand, as long as you conform to the religious orthodoxy, you'll have lots of other folks in your "tribe." On the other hand, if your mind presents you with any sincere doubts, you'd better squash 'em, or else they might grow, and then your friends won't want you around, challenging their beleifs.

Ya, really, I feel sorry for ya . . . it's your addiction, though. You'll have to deal with it. Good luck.

--Tock

[max2extreme]

I holler "Jezuz Christ" when pissed or in the middle of "intimate encounters." I am frequently reminded of other people's religion, but left to my own business, no, the thought would never enter my mind.

Why should anyone worry what I think about the bible? I have my opinion, based on years of study (prompted by lively debate), and unless someone re-writes the damm thing to make it beleivable, don't expect my thoughts on it to change.

I already know what it would take for you to change your opinion. Until (1) you assert your courage to think freely, and (2) are able to think unencumbered without being socially shunned by the church people on whom your social life is so dependant, and (3) have the support of unbeleivers to help you through your psychologocial dependancies on your religious fantasy, you ain't (can't) tear yourself away from your fundamentalism.

On one hand, as long as you conform to the religious orthodoxy, you'll have lots of other folks in your "tribe." On the other hand, if your mind presents you with any sincere doubts, you'd better squash 'em, or else they might grow, and then your friends won't want you around, challenging their beleifs.

Ya, really, I feel sorry for ya . . . it's your addiction, though. You'll have to deal with it. Good luck.

--Tock

Now, did I ever once say anything wrong about your beliefs? Did I say anything at all about you not having enough courage to go against your friends/family/the general populous, thus you wont ever be a christian? I was simply discussing, debating if you will. I stated what I consider facts from the bible. If you are done with discussion, just say so. But dont send it to flames...(haha, kinda funny, flames.)

But you know what, in reply,

(1) Do you think it takes more courage to believe or not believe in the world we live in? Today or the past? At least for now, we dont die because we are christians like it used to be, but the day will come again.

(2) I include myself in all my posts. My social life doesnt revolve around the church, unfortunatly. I struggle with sin just as everyone else does. I sin every day. The church doesnt and would not shun me or anyone else for this. (and you dont know me anyway, how can you even make a comment about my social life).

(3) Im happy I tore myself away from the ways of a non-believer and into the church.


[QUOTE=Tock]On one hand, as long as you conform to the religious orthodoxy, you'll have lots of other folks in your "tribe." On the other hand, if your mind presents you with any sincere doubts, you'd better squash 'em, or else they might grow, and then your friends won't want you around, challenging their beleifs.

Ya, really, I feel sorry for ya . . . it's your addiction, though. You'll have to deal with it. Good luck.


You write this as if there are soooo many more christians than there are non? Is this what you think? I have blind faith in the bible. If any doubts or questions come into my head, I look to the bible. If its there, its the truth. And then its not a doubt or question. If its not, or until I can find some supportive facts to either side, its a question. Im happy for my addiction. I wish I was more addicted.

If you really still want to discuss this, then good. Throw some challenges out. I have one for you. What do you think about the dead sea scrolls and how they were scientifically dated, but yet had things written on them that was later found, and proven to be dated AFTER the scrolls?? If you dont have an answer thats fine, it doesnt prove a point. Just as im sure you can ask me questions, tons of questions, that i wont have an answer for.

-max

[MMC78]

I holler "Jezuz Christ" when pissed or in the middle of "intimate encounters." I am frequently reminded of other people's religion, but left to my own business, no, the thought would never enter my mind.

Why should anyone worry what I think about the bible? I have my opinion, based on years of study (prompted by lively debate), and unless someone re-writes the damm thing to make it beleivable, don't expect my thoughts on it to change.

I already know what it would take for you to change your opinion. Until (1) you assert your courage to think freely, and (2) are able to think unencumbered without being socially shunned by the church people on whom your social life is so dependant, and (3) have the support of unbeleivers to help you through your psychologocial dependancies on your religious fantasy, you ain't (can't) tear yourself away from your fundamentalism.

On one hand, as long as you conform to the religious orthodoxy, you'll have lots of other folks in your "tribe." On the other hand, if your mind presents you with any sincere doubts, you'd better squash 'em, or else they might grow, and then your friends won't want you around, challenging their beleifs.

Ya, really, I feel sorry for ya . . . it's your addiction, though. You'll have to deal with it. Good luck.

--Tock

This was a little over the top Tock. There's no noble reason to attack someone else's beleif system regardless of your own personal beleifs. You certainly aren't going to win any arguments by insulting them. And what are your motives for changing their mind if they incur no harm to you?

[Todd Scott]

i am also a catholic and do beleive in god, but have not set foot in a church since i was 7 years old.

I do live a good life, i respect my girlfriend, and family and try to be good with all people to help them has much has i can.

I to beleve that if you respected others their will be a good place in heaven.

I am really chocked with what happened in NY becose the ones that did this are among the strongest beleivers in god on the planet, what made them think that god would approve of such a disaster???

This is behond me.

A good point my friend. All throughout history religion has killed billions of innocent people. Quite ironic really!

[Badgerman]

The bible totally contradicts this. It says nothing about judas or satan being saved. God did create everything. I guess you could say God created evil, or at any rate, he allowed it. But, and this is an honest question, where did you come up with this post? The lake of fire is purification? What are you basing this on? Satan will be saved?? Are you saying that for now, good and evil are just opposites so that we learn the difference, but in the end everyone is going to heaven? If so, where are you getting this? Its nowhere in the bible. Things like this may spark some 'human minds' but as christians, everything should be judged according to the bible. This really isnt insightful to me. Its just talk. And please dont turn this into me flaming you, im not. Im just conversing and listening, and giving what I think.

-max

I disagree with you. I believe you are one who thinks you can choose God.
I propose otherwise.

First, God is Almighty - He has ALL the power. "I am Almighty God." (Gen 17:1; Rev 15:3; etc.)
In His All mightiness God creates ALL. "God who makes all things." (Gen 1:1; Qoh 11:5; Jer 10:16)
In God's creating, God creates good. "I make alive ... I heal ... I make peace ... the Lord [YHWH] is good to all: and his mercies are over all his WORKS." (Gen 1:31; Deut 32:39; Pss 145:9; Isa 45:7)
God even predestinates some to good. (Rom 9:21-23; Eph 1:4-5; etc.;
But somehow in God's all powerfulness, He creates evil. "I kill ... I wound ... and create evil." (Deut 32:39; Isa 45:7)
God even predestinates some to evil. (See Prov 16:4; Rom 9:21-23; 1Pet 2:8; Jude 1:4;
Yet God will in the future make ALL THINGS NEW. "I make all things new." (Isa 65:17; Rev 21:5)
And then ALL WILL BE IN GOD. "Then the end ... the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death ... that God may be all in all." (1Cor 15:24-28)
God even gives:
the Spirit (1Cor 12:1; Gal 4:6 ff)
repentance (Acts 5:31, 11:18; 2Tim 2:25)
grace (Rom 11:5-6, 15:15)
salvation (Titus 3:5-7)



For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive (1Cor 15:22; see Pss 82:7-8; Rom 5:14-18).



"For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection out of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. But each in his own order" (1Cor 15:21-23, NASB).

But each in his own order: Christ the first fruit, after that those who are Christ's at His coming" (1Cor 15:23, NASB).

Christ's resurrection was represented by the waving of the sheaf of the first fruits of Israel's first harvest of the year. Christians' resurrection was represented by Israel's spring harvest and its feast of weeks. The resurrection of the final harvest is represented by the final harvest of Israel in its feast of tabernacles. Another antitypical pattern is the Biblical Joseph (Christ), Manasseh (Christians), and Ephraim (the resurrection of the multitude of nations)

"For as in Adam ALL die, so also in Christ ALL shall be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruit, after that those who are Christ's at his coming, then comes the end" (1Cor 15:22-24).

The third order is resurrected at the end. The "end" Paul is speaking about here is amplified on in verses 24-28. The end comes when:

Christ has abolished all rule and all authority and power of his enemies (v. 24b & 25).
The last enemy abolished is death.
At that time ALL things have been put under Christ's feet (The exception to "all" is indicated in verse 27b).
At that time God will be ALL in ALL.


At the end there will be no death. This chapter in 1Corinthians chapter 15 is speaking about resurrections to life, about immortality. Thus, after the third resurrection to immortality, then death is abolished, then the God is ALL in ALL. Satan and his evil influence will be abolished. Death, Satan's greatest power (Heb 2:14), is abolished at the END. Since God is ALL in ALL at the "end," and since God is love (1John 4:8), then Biblical love will be in ALL at the "end." There will be NO evil. In Christ all shall be made alive. This is, alive in the Spiritual sense of alive - being immortal and being inside the true life, being inside of God and His true Biblical love.


After death is abolished, then comes true the saying, "death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave where is thy victory?" (1Cor 15:54-55; see Hos 13:14)


Here is some further proof that all will be saved:

(1) "For God has concluded them ALL in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon ALL" (Rom 11:32).
(2) "For out of Him, and through him, and to Him, are ALL things" (Rom 11:36, see Greek text).
(3) "The Lord is good to ALL, and His mercies are over ALL his works. ALL thy works shall give thanks to thee, O Lord" (Pss 145:9-10, NASB).
(4) "And so ALL Israel shall be saved" (Rom 11:26).
(5) "In the Lord shall ALL the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory" (Isa 45:25).
(6) "ALL the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and ALL the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee" (Pss 22:27). [Here, in the antitype, it speaks of real worship; the only way you can really worship God is with the Spirit of God (John 4:24; Rom 8:8-9).]
(7) "Behold, I am the Lord, the God of ALL flesh: is there any word too hard for me?" (Jer 32:27)
God is the God of ALL flesh. But now in this age Satan is the god of the flesh belonging to this present evil age (2Cor 4:4). Thus at some future time God will truly be God of all flesh.

After Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were dead, God spoke to Moses, "I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob" (Exod 3:6). To give proof for the resurrection of the dead Christ said, "now that the dead are raised, even Moses showed at the bush, when he called the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for ALL live unto him" (Luke 20:37-38).

By God calling Himself the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob when they were dead, He was projecting their future resurrection to life. By God saying He is "God of ALL flesh," He is projecting the resurrection of all flesh to life in the future.

(8) "Praise ye the Lord: praise ye the Lord from heavens: praise him in the heights. Praise ye him, ALL HIS ANGELS ... Praise the Lord from the earth ... kings of the earth, and ALL people, princes, and ALL judges of the earth: both young men, and maidens; old men, children ... Let EVERYTHING that has breath praise the Lord" (Pss 148:1-2,7,11-12, 150:6).
These Psalms were not placed in the Bible for mere words of hope; they are words of prophecy like Pss 22, 110, and all others. All will praise God in the truest sense (note Isa 45:23; Rom 14:11; Phil 2:10-11).

In order for ALL to praise God, then ALL must be resurrected to life. Thus,

(9) "For the grave cannot praise thee, death cannot celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise thee" (Isa 38:18-19).
As this scripture shows, for number (8) to come true, then all must be resurrected to life - Spiritual life.

[decadbal]

well lets all hope so

[max2extreme]

Badgerman,

I dont see anywhere in this post that answers the questions of my reply. Ill talk to one thing here, but after you read my reply, can you please break this post down into a smaller post that you think answers a certain question that I posed?? Thanks.

Ill reply to your number 8 for now though.

(8) "Praise ye the Lord: praise ye the Lord from heavens: praise him in the heights. Praise ye him, ALL HIS ANGELS ... Praise the Lord from the earth ... kings of the earth, and ALL people, princes, and ALL judges of the earth: both young men, and maidens; old men, children ... Let EVERYTHING that has breath praise the Lord" (Pss 148:1-2,7,11-12, 150:6).
These Psalms were not placed in the Bible for mere words of hope; they are words of prophecy like Pss 22, 110, and all others. All will praise God in the truest sense (note Isa 45:23; Rom 14:11; Phil 2:10-11).


Your number 8 is a call to praise the lord, not a prophesy that all will praise him. Though, if your meaning is otherwise, it does say that even demons, even the devil, all evil recognizes the Lord, they just dont choose to follow him, thus sending them to hell.


But please reply with specifics that you posted, with why you think this.

example: a)Prove to me that judas and satan will be saved.
b)Prove to me the lake of fire is just a purification and all will go to heaven.

If you include verses, explain what you think these mean, dont just put verses because my interpretation may be different than yours, and perhaps one can prove the other thru other verses...

Later man,

max

[Badgerman]

well lets all hope so

That's what I mean......with God all powerful there is absolute hope......
with the way alot of so-called Christians view the world there is no hope at all
.....only doubts about "do I have enough faith"...."am I saved"....."why would a loving God send a baby to hell for eternity"......"what about those that never hear the gospel"......."why did God kill all those people in the Old Testament"......."how could Saul have the Holy Spirit and then be given an evil spirit"......."what if I'm pre-destined for an eternal hell"......questions most churchdom is SCARED to address......that's why you watch TV and there
is nothing but superficial crap on religious channels.......they do not know how to address the REAL questions that arise with any belief system that really make a difference in how you think......that is what can become a stumbling block for a searching mind.....inadequate answers to serious questions.

Max.... if you understand ALL in ALL.....you realize the lake of fire has to be gone in the end......there can be no evil anywhere......so it follows logically that Satan has to be brought into God......after all that's where he went out of.....like us.....and will be brought back.....without evil.......he was the cherubim on the left side of God

[max2extreme]

That's what I mean......with God all powerful there is absolute hope......
with the way alot of so-called Christians view the world there is no hope at all
.....only doubts about "do I have enough faith"...."am I saved"....."why would a loving God send a baby to hell for eternity"......"what about those that never hear the gospel"......."why did God kill all those people in the Old Testament"......."how could Saul have the Holy Spirit and then be given an evil spirit"......."what if I'm pre-destined for an eternal hell"......questions most churchdom is SCARED to address......that's why you watch TV and there
is nothing but superficial crap on religious channels.......they do not know how to address the REAL questions that arise with any belief system that really make a difference in how you think......that is what can become a stumbling block for a searching mind.....inadequate answers to serious questions.

Max.... if you understand ALL in ALL.....you realize the lake of fire has to be gone in the end......there can be no evil anywhere......so it follows logically that Satan has to be brought into God......after all that's where he went out of.....like us.....and will be brought back.....without evil.......he was the cherubim on the left side of God

2. All of the 'so called christians...' that you said and all those questions you wrote... christians dont have fears as such. christians dont wonder if they are saved. Im sure there are churches, in fact though I never been to one, there has to be. Im sure you are right there are some churches that are scared to address such things. but I would definatly not say all or most, or even half. thats one reason why you cant just go to any ordinary church. my fiancee and i spent 7 weeks going to different churches until we found the one that we like. and if you dont have that oppertunity, then its great to seek out yourselves and the internet is a great place for that. AS LONG as what you read, you dont take as the truth. Make sure you check yourself in the bible. All things I post here, please dont take as truth. Go check out the bible for yourself. write back, and maybe i was wrong about something, but dont just put out things here addressed to me as a rebuke to something i said and not back it up with bible scripture. (Badger, this isnt directed at you, just general comments, you do a good job).

Support your second paragraph badger. It is true, in the end, all evil will be gone. Why does it follow logically that that means satan will be brought to god? Why cant it follow logically that that means satan and all evil will be abolished, destroyed? I dont have a bible with me at this time to prove this. But you look for passages to support your view on this, and Ill look and support my view. It may not be till tomorrow....But if you dont hear from me today, i fly back home tomorrow and will get online. (im out of town right now).

have a good one.

max

[sorn]

I want to believe but I can't say that I do. What I find one of the most stupid things christains (any other religions) say is that the animal soul is mortal but the human soul is immortal. I think that's dumb.. if we have afterlife I believe monkeys and dogs and other mammals also have one. Are we not mammals? Did we not evolve from monkeys? What about the neanderdalsman?

I remember a story I heard by some christain from the TV. He was telling that story to strenghten the believe in afterlife.
He said when some man who his wife knew died his dog began barking at the exact time of death. The dog ran around barking seemingly following something invisible which the narrator interpreted was the soul.
The conclusion is Man has soul because his dog can see it... but according to Christain believes the dog hasn't one (STILL he can see it according to that christains story).

A dog would never see a soul if he hadn't one 'cause it wouln't mean anything to him. Evolutionary it wouldn't happen. Not that I believe dogs have immortal souls.. just pointing out another christian who preaches something which doesn't make sense even with his own believes.

But one of the main problems I have with believing in afterlife is : people are always dying .. so where can you get the space for all those dead people. There's always new people coming in but noone dies (unless the afterlife is some kind of reincarnation).

Also of course there's no proof for afterlife.

[Tock]

Wow . . . check out THIS babtist church . . . talk about yer neighborhood tight-ass society . . .

www.landoverbaptist.org

-Tock

[Bryan2]

My beliefs are a litle different from the mainstream Christianty.

1 I beleive that people were never meant to die.
death is only a result of sin Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10
"For the living know that they die; but the dead know not of any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. whatsoever thy hand findeth to do,do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."
This means that the dead cannot do anything and cannot feel anything. They no longer have any thoughts, as the Bible states: "Do not put your trust in nobles, nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs. His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish"(Psalm 146:3, 4)
At death mans spirit, his life-force which is sustained by by breathing, "goes out." It no longer exists. So mans senses of hearing, sight, touch, smell, and taste, which depend upon his being able to think, all stop working. According to the Bible, the dead enter a state of complete unconsciousness.
When they are dead, both humans and animals are in this same state of complete unconsciousness. Note how the Bible makes this point "As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit, so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity. All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust." ( Ecclesiates 3:19, 20) the "spirit" that makes animals live is the same as that which makes humans live. When this "spirit," or invisible life-force, goes out, both man and beast return to the dust from which they are made.

[Pale Horse]

Bryan, I understand what you are saying but that is Old Testament thinking along the Jewish faith which is fine, it seems that your beliefs are more in line with them, just an opinion.

Sorn, free will is the major defining factor between humans and animals. Consciousness......... to do right and wrong, animals know no different this is where the soul lies. It is more complex than that, and of course it is my belief.

[TexasFitnessGirl]

I really enjoy reading intellectually stimulating posts. My entire life I believed without reservation in God, and the lord Jesus Christ. I spent hours teaching saunday school, leading the local youth group and praying in private. My life was a perfect picture. Then my husband left for a fishing trip to Cabo San Lucas Mexico, only to return in a cardboard box. Did this sway my faith, Oh no not at all - this is the time I leaned on my Lord Jesus Christ the hardest, I told him that I excepted death as a part of life and that he allowed my husband to have a glorious death perfectly fitting of a glorious man. My disbelief came when I asked the lord to take away not my pain, but the pain of my two children. I prayed that in the most difficult struggle of our lives, he make things a little simpler. Well my friends, sadly to inform you, i don't think he was listening. I still pray to him but sometimes I do wonder if the entire concept of heaven and hell was made up just so that during our time on earth we will attempt to set aside our own greed & desires because we think there is some just reward at the end or some terrible punishment for those who don't. I am an extremely forgiving person, I don't judge people unless I am kidding, I don't hate and I don't hold grudges. The only difference is that I do these things because I choose to be a good person not because I am afraid of being denied entrance into the kingdom of heaven. I am hoping that when I arrive - he will understand!

[Pale Horse]

It is one of the hardest things to do, to try to say the right thing or quote some verse or scripture to comfort someone who has lost so much. In human terms there are no words. Many if not all of the athiests on this board balk at the idea of faith as insanity or a "drug of the masses". The Bible says God knew you before you were born, He knows the number of hairs on your head, He knew who you would marry and everything about you and still does. Why would He let this happen to you? Only He knows the answer to that. This piece of "real estate" called earth that we are spinning around on is not meant for us (spiritual beings). The way the deal played out was that the devil has the "lease" if you will on this earth. And quite frankly he is a ****ty landlord, the place is a slum! We are given free will to act and react to everything that happens to us, for us or by us. This is a gift from God, the Angels don't even have free will. What are you doing now with your free will, where is it taking you? Are you pleased with the results? I am very sorry for your loss and especially for your children. I don't know but it sounds as if all faith is lost in you. How is that working for you in your life? God wants you to come home IMO he misses you and you will find comfort there. I understand that your heart has hardened and so does He. Either way God Bless You and Your Children. I'm sure this is the last thing you wanted to hear but I felt the need to respond somehow.

[Red Ketchup]

For me it's simple... when you die, it's over... period.

There is no heaven, no salvation, no god nothing... you are put in a box and worms eat you. End of story.

I have a hard time understanding how people can believe in all those stories they call religion... believing in things written in a BOOK by MEN... boggles my mind... but hey... whatever rocks your boat is fine with me... just don't try to get me in your boat, and please don't "pray for me" or "feel sorry for me" for not sharing your beliefs.

Red

[Bryan2]

1victor I beleive in the Bible in its entirety not just the old testament.
Websters dictoinary describes hell as equal to the hebrew word sheol and greek word hades. The king kames version translated sheol 31 times as "hell" 31 times as "grave" and 3 times as "pit". King james version translated hades as hell each of the 10 times it occurs.If it translated into 3 different words and if means the common grave of mankind it could not at the same time be a place of fiery torture.the Hebrew word sheol and the greek word hades mean the same thing. look at Acts 2:31 in the christian greek scriptures and and Psalm 16:10 in the hebrew scriptures.Notice also that Jesus Christ was in hades or hell. So God tormented Christ in ahell of fire? NO Way!!!! He was simply in his grave. In all places where sheol occurs in the Bible it is never associated with life,activity or torment. Rather it is often linked with death and inactivity.What about "hellfire and lake of fire" references then?
King james uses hell to translate Genhenna. Sheol and hades mean the grave but what about genhenna? In hebrew scriptures genhenna is the "valley Hinnom." Hinnom was the valley just outside the walls of jerusalem where the israealites sacrificed their children in the fire. In time King Joshiah banned the valley for such a horrible practice.(2kings 23:10) itwas turned into a huge garbage dump. During Jesus time genhenna was a garbage dump and fires were kept burning by adding brimstone to burn the garbage. So in (matthew 23:33) jerusalems people knew when he said "serpents, offspring of vipers, how are you to flee from the judgment of genhenna?" It was clear he was using genhenna as a symbol of complete everlasting destruction and were not worthy of ressurection.
Lake of fire you ask? it means everlasting death, or destructin. Notice Revelation 20:14 :and death and hades were hurled into the lake of fire." Lake of fire means "second death."From which there is no resurection. Lake is a symbol because death and hell are thrown into it and you know they cant litterally be burned.But they can be done away with or destroyed.

Now What about heaven you ask?

The Bible states that only 144,000 actualy go to heaven to rule with Christ.(hebrews 12:22) (revelation 14:1, 3)




The Bible promises:"The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it" (psalm 37:29) Often the Bible tells of Gods arrangement to give humans who serve him everlasting life.-John 3:14-16, 36; Isaiah 25:8; Revelation 21:3, 4. Man was made for the earth,and the earth for man. (genesis 2:8,9, 15)

My beleief is that after this system of things is brought to an end (Armageddon) then a paradise earth.after armageddon no part of this wicked world will remain. only persons who serve god will continue to live (1 John 2:17) After armageddon Gods kingdom will be the only government ruling over the earth. Satan and his demons will be gone.(Revelation 20:1-3)

People were meant to live forever, and after this system of things is destroyed along with everyone that knowingly turned there back on God Then people will be brought to perfection on paradise earth And the Dead that never got a chance to know the real God will be ressurected back to life to be given a chance to decide if they want to devote there life to God, meanwhile satan is locked away in the "abyss." Now after this 1000 years that man is given to once again be perfected and Satan is released and once again gets his chance to see if any will turn there back on God now that they are perfect like Jesus Christ. Then once and for all Satan and all that chose to follow him will be destoyed forever.

[max2extreme]

I want to believe but I can't say that I do. What I find one of the most stupid things christains (any other religions) say is that the animal soul is mortal but the human soul is immortal. I think that's dumb.. if we have afterlife I believe monkeys and dogs and other mammals also have one. Are we not mammals? Did we not evolve from monkeys? What about the neanderdalsman?

I remember a story I heard by some christain from the TV. He was telling that story to strenghten the believe in afterlife.
He said when some man who his wife knew died his dog began barking at the exact time of death. The dog ran around barking seemingly following something invisible which the narrator interpreted was the soul.
The conclusion is Man has soul because his dog can see it... but according to Christain believes the dog hasn't one (STILL he can see it according to that christains story).


A dog would never see a soul if he hadn't one 'cause it wouln't mean anything to him. Evolutionary it wouldn't happen. Not that I believe dogs have immortal souls.. just pointing out another christian who preaches something which doesn't make sense even with his own believes.

But one of the main problems I have with believing in afterlife is : people are always dying .. so where can you get the space for all those dead people. There's always new people coming in but noone dies (unless the afterlife is some kind of reincarnation).

Also of course there's no proof for afterlife.

Sorn,
I dont know about animal souls. I never read anything about it so I cant speak to it. Until I do, I have to believe that all animals go to heaven just because I think all animals are born without sin. I dont know.. Just a thought. but as far as you talking about christians in the first paragraph and saying "did we not evolve from monkeys...", no. christians do not believe we evolved from monkeys. So whatever is said about animals' souls ( i dont know, you have any verses about this?) wouldnt have anything to do with the fact that we are mammals and animals are mammals because we believe we were put here as 'humans', not the scientific teachings that we evolved from monkeys.

[max2extreme]

My beliefs are a litle different from the mainstream Christianty.

1 I beleive that people were never meant to die.
death is only a result of sin Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10
"For the living know that they die; but the dead know not of any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. whatsoever thy hand findeth to do,do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."
This means that the dead cannot do anything and cannot feel anything. They no longer have any thoughts, as the Bible states: "Do not put your trust in nobles, nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs. His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish"(Psalm 146:3, 4)
At death mans spirit, his life-force which is sustained by by breathing, "goes out." It no longer exists. So mans senses of hearing, sight, touch, smell, and taste, which depend upon his being able to think, all stop working. According to the Bible, the dead enter a state of complete unconsciousness.
When they are dead, both humans and animals are in this same state of complete unconsciousness. Note how the Bible makes this point "As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit, so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity. All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust." ( Ecclesiates 3:19, 20) the "spirit" that makes animals live is the same as that which makes humans live. When this "spirit," or invisible life-force, goes out, both man and beast return to the dust from which they are made.

I dont think that is against mainstream christianity...well the first part. I dont believe man was supposed to die either. and not until adam ate the forbidden fruit did man begin to die. BUT, heh, since God is all knowing and all powerful, and has a plan, i guess he knew adam would eat the fruit, thus knowing his punishment, thus knowing man would die, thus....man was supposed to die. hehe. (thats just me thinking out loud.)

ps: what are you proving with your psalm quote??

-max

[max2extreme]

For me it's simple... when you die, it's over... period.

There is no heaven, no salvation, no god nothing... you are put in a box and worms eat you. End of story.

I have a hard time understanding how people can believe in all those stories they call religion... believing in things written in a BOOK by MEN... boggles my mind... but hey... whatever rocks your boat is fine with me... just don't try to get me in your boat, and please don't "pray for me" or "feel sorry for me" for not sharing your beliefs.

Red

Christians believe that the bible is the word of god, written by men, yes. but men that were influenced by God, thus making it written by God himself.

-max

[Tock]

Christians believe that the bible is the word of god, written by men, yes. but men that were influenced by God, thus making it written by God himself.

-max

Well, some Christians beleive that, mostly the ones who haven't spent lots of time studying the historicity of the primary souce documents and the history of the religion itself.
Ask the scholars and theologians of the Lutheran, United Church of Christ, United Methodist, Unitarian, and similar groups, and you'll hear a different tale . . . one of 4 versions of the Old Testament being combined into one around the time of the Maccabbees. Of changes made to the Hebrew faith around the 600 bc time period. Of a multitude of "authentic versions" of the scriptures up to 323 AD when they were voted on by a bunch of politicians, and that's how we got what we have today. And of the wildly different interpretations given to different passages over the centuries . . . oh ya, if the Inquisition could get their hands on these TV preachers, they'd burn 'em all for heresy. And everyone else along with 'em.

In the end, it's all a matter of opinion, anyway. You think the creator of the universe had a part of creating the Bible, but of course, you have no evidence to support that notion. I am just as certain that the Creator did not have anything to do with it, and I am without proof to support my opinion as well.
So you can worry about dodging Hell, and I'll keep on living my life in peace, and keep paying the rent and eating those inch thick steaks until we drop, and then you'll see that I was right all along . . . lol . . .
-Tock

[max2extreme]

Well, some Christians beleive that, mostly the ones who haven't spent lots of time studying the historicity of the primary souce documents and the history of the religion itself.
Ask the scholars and theologians of the Lutheran, United Church of Christ, United Methodist, Unitarian, and similar groups, and you'll hear a different tale . . . one of 4 versions of the Old Testament being combined into one around the time of the Maccabbees. Of changes made to the Hebrew faith around the 600 bc time period. Of a multitude of "authentic versions" of the scriptures up to 323 AD when they were voted on by a bunch of politicians, and that's how we got what we have today. And of the wildly different interpretations given to different passages over the centuries . . . oh ya, if the Inquisition could get their hands on these TV preachers, they'd burn 'em all for heresy. And everyone else along with 'em.

In the end, it's all a matter of opinion, anyway. You think the creator of the universe had a part of creating the Bible, but of course, you have no evidence to support that notion. I am just as certain that the Creator did not have anything to do with it, and I am without proof to support my opinion as well.
So you can worry about dodging Hell, and I'll keep on living my life in peace, and keep paying the rent and eating those inch thick steaks until we drop, and then you'll see that I was right all along . . . lol . . .
-Tock

Your first paragraph is just your opinion until you at least give me some kind of factual source that you got that from. I can say that I can ask scholars of all those groups too and find at least one that goes along with my views. If it cant be proven, its just some guys opinion.

Your second paragraph I can prove with verses from the bible that support God wrote the bible and thats its not something that christians made up just because God is more of a reliable source than man... If you can wait a day or 2, ill get those verses on here. I just got back in town and need to get to bed. You work on getting some support for what you said.

and i dont worry about dodging hell. I live in peace. I pay my rent. And i eat TONS of inch thick steaks. in case you were implying that christians dont do those things. heh

-max

[Tock]

Your first paragraph is just your opinion until you at least give me some kind of factual source that you got that from. I can say that I can ask scholars of all those groups too and find at least one that goes along with my views. If it cant be proven, its just some guys opinion.

There's lots of fundamentalist stuff around, but for the scholarly stuff, ya gotta dig around the dusty halls of academia and be ready for lots of 50-cent words. Their stuff is around, ya just gotta look for it.

I can prove with verses from the bible that support God wrote the bible

So, you're gonna tell me, "See right here, this verse in the Bible PROVES that the Bible is God's Word."
Ya, right.
I was born at night, but not last night.

-Tock

[Bryan2]

I dont think that is against mainstream christianity...well the first part. I dont believe man was supposed to die either. and not until adam ate the forbidden fruit did man begin to die. BUT, heh, since God is all knowing and all powerful, and has a plan, i guess he knew adam would eat the fruit, thus knowing his punishment, thus knowing man would die, thus....man was supposed to die. hehe. (thats just me thinking out loud.)

ps: what are you proving with your psalm quote??

-max

Yes God is all knowing but there is also the free will thing so basically he knows every possible outcome with every single desicion. He knew what would come about of adam and eve eating the fruit and he also knew of what would come if they did not eat it. But I think that saying he ultimatley knew that they would eat it would be contradictorty to free will considering we would be predestined to do it because he already knew we would.

The psalm quote was in reference to there not being an actual spirit form floating around after you die it ties into the ecclesiaties quote

[Badgerman]

Yes God is all knowing but there is also the free will thing so basically he knows every possible outcome with every single desicion. He knew what would come about of adam and eve eating the fruit and he also knew of what would come if they did not eat it. But I think that saying he ultimatley knew that they would eat it would be contradictorty to free will considering we would be predestined to do it because he already knew we would.

The psalm quote was in reference to there not being an actual spirit form floating around after you die it ties into the ecclesiaties quote

Only God has free will......it is impossible for man to choose good without God
We receive all from God.........even our good works are from God's predestination ........ he gave us our ability to do good (the Spirit).......... he gave us the physical body in order to do this good......... he gave us a place (the earth) to do good........ he gave us the physical energy to do good......... and he gave us a time of evil so that there could be good.......for without evil there could never have been good because evil and good are comparative qualities. There are SO many verses that make it clear God controls man's destiny....... that talking about "free will" is ludicrous......

[max2extreme]

Yes God is all knowing but there is also the free will thing so basically he knows every possible outcome with every single desicion. He knew what would come about of adam and eve eating the fruit and he also knew of what would come if they did not eat it. But I think that saying he ultimatley knew that they would eat it would be contradictorty to free will considering we would be predestined to do it because he already knew we would.

The psalm quote was in reference to there not being an actual spirit form floating around after you die it ties into the ecclesiaties quote

Its complicated. And I dont quite understand. We had a sermon about a month ago at church (that I unfortunatly missed), about how we are 'pre-chosen' for heaven and hell. I think that is different than 'free-will'. We have the free will to do whatever. Make mistakes. Do good. Do bad. But I THINK the bottom line is that even though we have this free will to do these things, eventually God knows, or selected, or however it is (ill send an email to my pastor for clarification) that we will make the choice in the end and enter heaven, or we will make the choice and not become christians and go to hell.

-max

[max2extreme]

There's lots of fundamentalist stuff around, but for the scholarly stuff, ya gotta dig around the dusty halls of academia and be ready for lots of 50-cent words. Their stuff is around, ya just gotta look for it.







So, you're gonna tell me, "See right here, this verse in the Bible PROVES that the Bible is God's Word."
Ya, right.
I was born at night, but not last night.

-Tock

No, Im not going to give you a verse that says 100% the bible is God's Word (I dont think...we'll see *smile*) but I will give you verses in the bible that support my opinion (and others') that the bible is God's word.

-max

[sorn]

Sorn,
I dont know about animal souls. I never read anything about it so I cant speak to it. Until I do, I have to believe that all animals go to heaven just because I think all animals are born without sin. I dont know.. Just a thought. but as far as you talking about christians in the first paragraph and saying "did we not evolve from monkeys...", no. christians do not believe we evolved from monkeys. So whatever is said about animals' souls ( i dont know, you have any verses about this?) wouldnt have anything to do with the fact that we are mammals and animals are mammals because we believe we were put here as 'humans', not the scientific teachings that we evolved from monkeys.

Actually Catholics accept the theory of evolution. But I don't think there's any reference to animals not having soul in the bible. I think it's just something some theologicans or philosophers invented.

IMO it doesn't make sense to say we have "soul" 'cause we have "free will" but not animals. I believe free will is something very vague to define. I could say my dog has free will to choose between two different foods.. and I wouldn't be wrong. "Free will" is different thing for different people.

[Pale Horse]

To say that we have no free will is sooo wrong! We can do whatever we want whenever we want , society and God will have a say in the outcome but it is our choice. How can you say there is no free will? Do you believe that people that are rapists and murderers are born that way? Gimme a break.

[AnabolicBoy1981]

I hope not. If so, i'm going straight to hell for being such a slut.

[sorn]

No, even though they're choice isn't strictly done by free will, they still choose so to some extent.

But I ask you: Was my cat who killed rabbits (and ate only their brains!) born a killer?

[MMC78]

To say that we have no free will is sooo wrong! We can do whatever we want whenever we want , society and God will have a say in the outcome but it is our choice. How can you say there is no free will? Do you believe that people that are rapists and murderers are born that way? Gimme a break.

Study physics.

[geoneo]

Good question. I like the way everybody respects each others ideals. I dont think there is life after death, especially as a med student, and taking all those biology courses (spend 10 secs in childrens ward and you see what i mean). Its funny though alot of my christian friends say I am going to hell because I dont believe in jesus and so forth but then i think of all the volunteer work i do (because i like it) and that they dont do, then i think to myself god must be really crazy to send me to hell for helping others. I just think all religion was created to give man discipline and now its used as an instrument for wars. The only bad thing about believing what i believe is that if you go and kill or rape 100 peeps, in the end your going to end up the same as anybody else - worm food, religion was only created to prevent this stuff. I'm still in dismay how peeps can argue against evolution - but everybody has their beliefs. Just be good to one another and nothing to worry about ( for example pm me a source to ug canadian lab - and you'll get to the higher place you desire - lol)

[Tock]

To say that we have no free will is sooo wrong! We can do whatever we want whenever we want

No way . . .
If you wanted to start speaking fluent Urdu tomorrow morning, you can't just "decide" to do that; it takes lots of time and effort and exposure to the language. Or if you wanted to bench 600 lbs, again, it's gonna take lots of time, effort, and training to get there.

How can you say there is no free will? Do you believe that people that are rapists and murderers are born that way?

No, rapists and murderers are not born that way, but they are born into dysfunctional family systems that enable them to do what they do.

Essentially, the universe operates like the balls on a billiard table . . . you hit a ball with the cue ball, and where it goes depends on the angle and force it was struck, and the condition of the table's surface, and other factors. Everything works on an action/reaction basis. Every reaction has a cause, every cause has its reaction. No exception.

Check out philosophical "Determinism." Makes lots of sense to me . . .
-Tock