What is proper PWO nutrition???

[magic32]

I recently received a PM regarding this topic and wanted to post a brief informative piece on it so here goes.

This is a good question that warrants review because too many amateur bb’ers approach this aspect of training either haphazardly or not at all. Even though many of you know the basics of a PWO meal, you've probably never really investigated it thoroughly or adhered to what you know on a regular basis. The more astute members are probably already questioning the efficacy of a comprehensive (one-size-fits-all) PWO meal in light of the possible diversity of various workouts, and although this is true, this information focuses on all muscle-taxing weight training sessions which often includes some cardio (warm-up, cool-down, or both).

Firstly, there are four acute effects of working out that your recovery strategy needs to address:

1. Depletion of water and electrolytes
2. Depletion of stored muscle glycogen (an important energy fuel)
3. Muscle soreness
4. Muscle-protein breakdown

The faster you respond to these effects, the more quickly your body will return to homeostasis following the workout, and the more prepared it’ll be for the next one.

Sensible PWO nutrition will help address all four of these issues. To rehydrate and replenish electrolytes (sodium, magnesium and potassium, which are essential for a host of bodily processes), ingest a sports drink immediately after the work out. You can restock muscle glycogen by consuming drinks or foods that are rich in high-glycemic (i.e. fast-acting) carbohydrates such as orange juice, a banana or the perennial favorite bowl of Cheerios.

As many of you know muscle-protein breakdown is caused primarily by microscopic tears in muscle fibers/protein filaments, and by oxidative stress. Treat the former by taking in some protein after training, and the latter by getting antioxidants/anti-inflammatory vitamins namely, C and E in your system.

Remember that fat (even EFAs) slow the flow of nutrients into the bloodstream, so pass on the urge to indulge figuring it won’t matter during this depleted state. Over the years, solid research has shown that eating more than one gram of protein for every four grams of carbs will inhibit gastric emptying and thereby delay recovery. Such data effectively subverts the conventional high or all protein PWO habits practiced by many which effectively stalls absorption. So the ideal combination for fast and full absorption is a 4 to 1 ratio of carbohydrates to proteins. Although I don’t have study data on hand, this is the fairly common knowledge on which many sports and endurance drinks are founded, and should be easily locatable…again this is supposed to be a brief. You can access any search engine and input “4:1 carbohydrate to protein ratio” for more detail.

In review, here are the components that effectively counter the four work out induced bodily hindrances listed above:

1. Depletion of water and electrolytes - Electrolytes in a water-based delivery system (tabs and caps are less effective)
2. Depletion of stored muscle glycogen (an important energy fuel) - High glycemic carbs
3. Muscle soreness - Vitamins C and E (natural antioxidant & anti-inflammatory duo)
4. Muscle-protein breakdown - 4:1 carb to protein ratio

Putting all this together would be daunting, especially when it comes to issues of portability and mobility, as well as the fact that most of us aren’t particularly hungry right after working out. Thus, for the serious bb’ing enthusiast it would make since to purchase a drink that does it all for you. There a few good ones to choose from, but be sure the above criterion are met. Although many “so-called” recovery drinks shortchange these components, there are a couple that fit the bill nicely including lower calorie and protein drinks G-Push G4 Recovery and Accelerade, and my personal favorite the high powered Endurox R4 in delicious fruit punch and decent tasting orange. Give these 30-40 minutes (the drive home and a shower for some) for full fluid-rate digestion, and enjoy your next meal without disrupting the ratios. Since I'd never just expect a thinking man to blindly believe anything click on the links for a few supporting studies...http://www.accelsport.com/product-in...e_studies.html, http://www.accelsport.com/product-info/endurox.html. You'll be fuller and feel better recovered...happy PWO to you all!!!

[Braunstein]

...Give these 30-40 minutes (the drive home and a shower for some) for full fluid-rate digestion, and enjoy your next meal without disrupting the ratios. Since I'd never...

Great post, thanks for sharing.

What do you mean by this?
Are you saying don't eat before PWO meal is fully consumed...
OR
Are you saying keep your meal after the PWO meal at a 4:1 ratio?

Sorry, I'm retarded.

[Braunstein]

How does this look for a Pre/During/Post, and PPWO nutrition protocol?

Pre-workout shake: (90min. after last whole meal) (20 min. before lifting)
• 20g whey protein
• 15g waxy maize starch
• 1 tbsp. liquid beef amino

During-workout drink: (Sipped on throughout routine, after pump)
• 15g waxy maize starch
• 2 tbsp. liquid beef amino

Post-workout shake: (Immediately following lifting)
• 40g whey protein
• 40g waxy maize starch
• 1 cup blended quick oats
• 2 tbsp. liquid beef amino
• 2 tbsp. NOW liquid vitamins

Post-Postworkout meal: (90min following PWO shake)
• 5oz lean beef burger
• 1 cup baked yam
• 20g whey protein
• .5 cup blended oats
• 2 cups broccoli

[200byjune]

if the ratio is 4:1 how much protien do you need? so say i want 48g protien that mean i should take in 190g carbs?

[Braunstein]

220by june, my thoughts exacteley...

majic please post a sample shake for us please, because I just don't see this 4 to 1 thing happeneing...

[200byjune]

deffinetly. maybe thatd b the best way but 2:1 ratio seems to be good as ive seen studys

[dedic8ed1]

Great post Magic,your the man!!!!!!!

[AverageWorkouts]

Wow, very informative. Two questions though.

This drink has to be taken 30 minutes before you eat? Or could I drink it with my PWO Meal/Dinner?

Also

I currently take 2 scoops ( 48 ) grams of Whey protein after my workout, should I stop taking that if I drink one of these drinks reccomended? Such as Endurox R4.

[magic32]

I was just about to answer your PM on the forum. I'll go ahead below:

Wow awesome post on the PWO Drink. I just ordered some Endurox 4.

It seems you take this drink so I have a few questions if you have the time.

1. I do 30 minutes of cardio directly after my workouts. Should I wait and drink my PWO Endurox after im done or before the cardio?
Definitely! The cardio work is still part of your workout. Even though it's not anabolic, it continues to tax multiple systems and thus sustains stress levels. Therefore you should wait until you’re completely finished before beginning recovery.

2. Are there certain foods I should avoid eating even after 30 minutes of the Endurox? I don’t want to diminish its effects or ruin its purpose.
No! Your workout creates a depleted environment that is ripe for rapid digestive processing at a very high absorption level. So after that initial half hour you can confidently consume whatever your typical regimen dictates without interrupting PWO processing.

3. Should I continue to take my PWO Whey Protein (48 Grams aka 2 scoops ) or should I just save it for 30 minutes later and take it with my dinner?
This is basically answered above, and thoroughly addressed within the initial post. What you're proposing changes the specified ratios, and thus the overall value of the recovery period in favor of slower less efficient, but not necessarily unimportant protein amounts. Remember this PWO formula is geared towards both swift & comprehensive recovery, so if you don't mind greater lag there are many other valid protocols that also lead to recovery. They just don't take full advantage of the metabolic uptake and repair because of subtle formula deviations. It should be noted that there are also other ancillary ingredients within these drinks, some of which were mentioned in above posts either here or within the other forums (in total Nutrition, Supplement & Lounge) where I posted this thread. I simply didn't go into great detail because they merely support the identified primary focuses of PWO recovery.


Thanks for the informative post though, im new to all of this and Ive definatly been looking for some info on PWO Nutrition.

[200byjune]

if the ratio is 4:1 how much protien do you need? so say i want 48g protien that mean i should take in 190g carbs?

bump.... magic your answer??

[magic32]

if the ratio is 4:1 how much protien do you need? so say i want 48g protien that mean i should take in 190g carbs?

Not very much, see below for why. However, after this initial recovery bout, as stated earlier, the more customized (bulking, cutting, weight loss, etc.) meal depending on your specific needs should be consumed, and still registers greatly in the absorption department.

But we're talking full recovery first!
----------------------------

220by june, my thoughts exacteley...

majic please post a sample shake for us please, because I just don't see this 4 to 1 thing happeneing...

Endurox (Profile: http://www.accelsport.com/product-in...nutrition.html) is a great example of comprehensiveness. The theory here is that an abundance of protein is NOT what is immediately needed, firstly because the PWO meal should address multiple weaknesses, and secondly because it would slow overall processing. Some people are just unable to make paradigm shifts, and challenging the fallacy that we must be deluged with maximum amounts of protein as soon as possible is a deeply rooted one.

----------------------------

and just to elaborate some. I think what justin is saying that, ya, post workout drinks are thee very best thing you can take after working out......buuuut, not taking powders truthfully is not going to make or break you as a bodybuilder. I agree with him when he sais, if everyone was as obsessed with the other 23 hours in a day, as they are with the post workout drink, alot more people would be jacked. SO again, your thought out and planned recovery drink is second to none, but it wont kill ya not to take it, and food intake for the other 23 hours in a day is what gets the job done.

I'm still wondering about your logic here. When exactly do we want to not do what doesn't kill us, again the same could be said for PCT. But if such things augment our results shouldn't we taking them, rather than pointing out that not taking them doesn't kill us?

----------------------------

Very interesting post. 4:1 carb to protein ratio seems a bit excessive. I have 40 grams of protein PWO and if I were to apply 4:1 to that it would mean 160 grams of carbs. That's a LOT of oatmeal, or sugar, or yams or whatever.

The only info I could find regarding this 4:1 ratio was on the Accelerade website. I will admit it was backed up by studies etc, but it sounds a little bit like propaganda to me. Still, your post is definitely food for thought.

Everyone is entitled to their own methodology, and strength athletes can go anywhere from 2:1 - 4:1, but too much protein AT CERTAIN TIMES namely, PWO can bog down the system reducing optimal recovery rates. This may not even be a concern of yours, which is also fine. However, there's plenty of data out there, though admittedly, the keywords I indicated yielded mostly ads and related forums so my apologies. But a quick search still provided much, and here's some of it:
http://www.thedietchannel.com/Post-W...Late-Night.htm
http://presteza.homestead.com/Why_Yo...in_Protein.pdf
http://www.truthaboutabs.com/Post-Wo...Nutrition.html

Again, just remember the point of this thread which was to make you aware of the four primary weakness after working out and the ways to swiftly and properly counteract them.

-------------------------------

I don't own stock in these drinks, nor am I seeking to make converts.
I'm just a purveyor of information trying to raise awareness!

[novastepp]

I recently received a PM regarding this topic and wanted to post a brief informative piece on it so here goes.

This is a good question that warrants review because too many amateur bb’ers approach this aspect of training either haphazardly or not at all. Even though many of you know the basics of a PWO meal, you've probably never really investigated it thoroughly or adhered to what you know on a regular basis. The more astute members are probably already questioning the efficacy of a comprehensive (one-size-fits-all) PWO meal in light of the possible diversity of various workouts, and although this is true, this information focuses on all muscle-taxing weight training sessions which often includes some cardio (warm-up, cool-down, or both).

Firstly, there are four acute effects of working out that your recovery strategy needs to address:

1. Depletion of water and electrolytes
2. Depletion of stored muscle glycogen (an important energy fuel)
3. Muscle soreness
4. Muscle-protein breakdown

The faster you respond to these effects, the more quickly your body will return to homeostasis following the workout, and the more prepared it’ll be for the next one.

Sensible PWO nutrition will help address all four of these issues. To rehydrate and replenish electrolytes (sodium, magnesium and potassium, which are essential for a host of bodily processes), ingest a sports drink immediately after the work out. You can restock muscle glycogen by consuming drinks or foods that are rich in high-glycemic (i.e. fast-acting) carbohydrates such as orange juice, a banana or the perennial favorite bowl of Cheerios.

As many of you know muscle-protein breakdown is caused primarily by microscopic tears in muscle fibers/protein filaments, and by oxidative stress. Treat the former by taking in some protein after training, and the latter by getting antioxidants/anti-inflammatory vitamins namely, C and E in your system.

Remember that fat (even EFAs) slow the flow of nutrients into the bloodstream, so pass on the urge to indulge figuring it won’t matter during this depleted state. Over the years, solid research has shown that eating more than one gram of protein for every four grams of carbs will inhibit gastric emptying and thereby delay recovery. Such data effectively subverts the conventional high or all protein PWO habits practiced by many which effectively stalls absorption. So the ideal combination for fast and full absorption is a 4 to 1 ratio of carbohydrates to proteins. Although I don’t have study data on hand, this is the fairly common knowledge on which many sports and endurance drinks are founded, and should be easily locatable…again this is supposed to be a brief. You can access any search engine and input “4:1 carbohydrate to protein ratio” for more detail.

In review, here are the components that effectively counter the four work out induced bodily hindrances listed above:

1. Depletion of water and electrolytes - Electrolytes in a water-based delivery system (tabs and caps are less effective)
2. Depletion of stored muscle glycogen (an important energy fuel) - High glycemic carbs
3. Muscle soreness - Vitamins C and E (natural antioxidant & anti-inflammatory duo)
4. Muscle-protein breakdown - 4:1 carb to protein ratio

Putting all this together would be daunting, especially when it comes to issues of portability and mobility, as well as the fact that most of us aren’t particularly hungry right after working out. Thus, for the serious bb’ing enthusiast it would make since to purchase a drink that does it all for you. There a few good ones to choose from, but be sure the above criterion are met. Although many “so-called” recovery drinks shortchange these components, there are a couple that fit the bill nicely including lower calorie and protein drinks G-Push G4 Recovery and Accelerade, and my personal favorite the high powered Endurox R4 in delicious fruit punch and decent tasting orange. Give these 30-40 minutes (the drive home and a shower for some) for full fluid-rate digestion, and enjoy your next meal without disrupting the ratios. Since I'd never just expect a thinking man to blindly believe anything click on the links for a few supporting studies...http://www.accelsport.com/product-in...e_studies.html, http://www.accelsport.com/product-info/endurox.html. You'll be fuller and feel better recovered...happy PWO to you all!!!

great read Magic. I have been using 3g vit C and 400ius of vitamin E PWO for years. Also worth mentioning is the effect of BCAA's periworkout. Supplementation of BCAAS before, during,and after will also help with muscle recovery, and aid in protein synthesis.

[AverageWorkouts]

Thanks for the Answers magic, very helpful. I used Endurox 4 After my workout yesterday and I felt a big change, it might all be in my head but so far so good.

[sizerp]

/bump

Is it possible to make your own 4:1 carb/pro PWO shake with WMS and Whey for example to achieve similar results as Endurox?

[PT]

great post again magic. i tempted to make half your post stickies because every word out of your mouth is helpful to almost every member

[UberSteroids]

Nice thread.

I don't know about this 4:1 carb ratio though. This seems slightly high if you ask me!

[sizerp]

Key is to keep protein lower than usual, so it doesn't bog down system; instead of keeping protein intake at a common static 2 scoops whey (~50g). Drop it to 20 or so, and increase carbs from there, etc...

[sizerp]

Remember you're going to eat in 30 mins again anyway.

[UberSteroids]

That might be an option.

How about the electrolytes. What would be the best source for that? A sports drink? This is another source of carbs. I am getting mine from Dex... so how do I work that out?

[sizerp]

I hear you can make your own version with the proper amounts of sugar/salt/water. However that's as far as my knowledge goes with that one bro. I'd stick to a sports drink, or supplemental PWO mix as mentioned (Endurox) by the O.P.

[jimmyinkedup]

^^^ 45 grams dextrose , dash morton lite salt , 1/2 scoop whey conc, 200 iu vitamin e , 500 mg vit c = 1 serving endurox r4

[sizerp]

There ya go, lol. Thanks Jimmy.

[daem]

Bump bc this is a good thread

[Polska]

To each their own; I don't think there is only one definitive way when it comes to managing your PWO nutrients.

I try to not take any high glycemic carbs PWO. The only difference I've noticed is that it keeps me leaner.

Jay Cutler's post workout nutrition consists of oats and egg whites. No dextrose, no waxy maise.

[Narkissos]

To each their own; I don't think there is only one definitive way when it comes to managing your PWO nutrients.

Ditto.

-CNS