STOP running estrogenic compounds if you don't want estrogen sides !!!!

[Myers]

If you haven’t begun cycle why not run some different compounds besides a bunch of test (the whole point of this thread)? Example let’s say you were going to run 750mg test weekly with an ai. Instead run 200mg test, 600mg EQ/primo (or maybe npp), and some mast with no AI.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Way too many compounds for me tbh, i made great gains on test and dbol only even with ai, i got paranoid after this thread that i could have made even more, but then again i dont think AI is an issue at such a low dose, i resprct GH but my opinion is that estro sensitive people should run AI and i dont get that much hate going on around this.
Id never add more than a single new compound besides what ive already run

[GearHeaded]

Way too many compounds for me tbh, i made great gains on test and dbol only even with ai, i got paranoid after this thread that i could have made even more, but then again i dont think AI is an issue at such a low dose, i resprct GH but my opinion is that estro sensitive people should run AI and i dont get that much hate going on around this.
Id never add more than a single new compound besides what ive already run

theres new research coming out , and some books that will be out soon as well presenting this research that basically points out that AI's are some of worst drugs to use in bodybuilding or TRT . they cause a lot of health and even mental problems that a decade ago we were not aware of.

heres just picture into this
https://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-...l-villian.html

[GearHeaded]

Way too many compounds for me tbh, i made great gains on test and dbol only even with ai, i got paranoid after this thread that i could have made even more, but then again i dont think AI is an issue at such a low dose

test and dbol are the two most estrogenic compounds on earth . if you didn't get gyno running those together, then your clearly not estrogen sensitive or gyno prone (for guys that are genetically prone to gyno, an AI isn't going to help much)..

but if you were thinking your E sensitive, then those are the two worse drugs you could possibly choose to run.

it doesn't make sense for someone who thinks they are estrogen sensitive and gyno prone to run the two most estrogenic compounds , especially when there are 20+ better, more potent, safer, and non estrogenic compounds to run.

^ having said that ,, I like Test and Dbol . I have plenty of clients running that combo and I run it myself all the time . but the reason I pick them and run them together is FOR THE PURPOSE OF GETTING THE ESTROGEN (I want my estrogen levels to get 5x above normal while on that cycle) it would be self defeating to take an AI and blunt the effects of what test/dbol do in the first place

[Myers]

test and dbol are the two most estrogenic compounds on earth . if you didn't get gyno running those together, then your clearly not estrogen sensitive or gyno prone (for guys that are genetically prone to gyno, an AI isn't going to help much)..

but if you were thinking your E sensitive, then those are the two worse drugs you could possibly choose to run.

it doesn't make sense for someone who thinks they are estrogen sensitive and gyno prone to run the two most estrogenic compounds , especially when there are 20+ better, more potent, safer, and non estrogenic compounds to run.

^ having said that ,, I like Test and Dbol . I have plenty of clients running that combo and I run it myself all the time . but the reason I pick them and run them together is FOR THE PURPOSE OF GETTING THE ESTROGEN (I want my estrogen levels to get 5x above normal while on that cycle) it would be self defeating to take an AI and blunt the effects of what test/dbol do in the first place

Didnt havr any issues with 0.25 adex eod tbh, im also on trt nebido every 9 weeks, felt great, high estro messes with my head more than body
Strength gains were great
Ive been on these forums for a long time and ive never seen anyone advocating high estro till now
Ive read many of austinites posts, seemed logical to me to use an AI
GH, what do u think about our beginner cycle guides? That are posted here
What about estro sides like water retention, bp increase from it, mood changes, and cancerogenic effect in men?
Yes, there are other compounds that are DHT derivates or else
Tbh i tried winny on my cut, in the end of it, prostate felt horrible

[GearHeaded]

GH, what do u think about our beginner cycle guides? That are posted here

well I'm not a beginner (I'm a coach) so I've never read them personally . but I've seen newbs that have posted cycles on here saying they are following the basic first time cycle lay out as it is laid out in the beginner cycle guides.

they generally are going with a test only cycle and running a fairly decent dose of an AI , from day one.
which imo is horrible advices and has messed peoples first cycles up over and over and over again.. I've seen over the years lots of guys run their basic first cycle like this, and not only get crap for gains , have a whole host of negative side effects that they could of avoided had they not went this route.

you know how many guys on all the AAS forums across the web run this basic cycle, then 4 weeks in they are posting saying they feel like shit, they are tired and lethargic, their dick don't work etc. etc.. when in reality, 4 weeks into a test cycle you should feel like a million bucks. the reason they have all these negative sides and their cycle is shit is because they started taking an AI from day one.


I've had a lot of clients that are complete newbs to AAS that I've helped with their first cycles. and never is an AI used from day one (again thats horrible advice imo) and they have all had amazing results . and not only the new users , of the 35 or so clients that I have currently that are running AAS, I think I have only one of them running an AI on their cycles . quite a few of these clients are members here, and they have went on record saying they have had amazing gains once they dropped their AI usage once signing up with me.. they are make some of the best gains in their lifting career now


and on a side note - regarding beginner cycles . apart from AI usage . I think 'test only' cycles for a new AAS user are not the best choice at all.

its like trying to teach a 16 year old kid how to drive in a 1938 4 speed Ford model T car ,, rather then teaching them in a 2019 car thats automatic and has all the safety features and ease of use features.

I think Test only cycles is that old ford model T and its best used as a main cycle compound for more advanced users that already know how to drive



edit - correction , I won't say that using an AI from day one of a long ester test only cycle is "horrible advice" ,, thats a stretch. I will say its un-informed and outdated advice derived from a mis understanding on the benefits of estrogen in AAS cycling (ie, nor realizing your estrogen is SUPPOSED to go up when your androgen levels elevate. thats how the body was designed to work and does work)

[Myers]

well I'm not a beginner (I'm a coach) so I've never read them personally . but I've seen newbs that have posted cycles on here saying they are following the basic first time cycle lay out as it is laid out in the beginner cycle guides.

they generally are going with a test only cycle and running a fairly decent dose of an AI , from day one.
which imo is horrible advices and has messed peoples first cycles up over and over and over again.. I've seen over the years lots of guys run their basic first cycle like this, and not only get crap for gains , have a whole host of negative side effects that they could of avoided had they not went this route.

you know how many guys on all the AAS forums across the web run this basic cycle, then 4 weeks in they are posting saying they feel like shit, they are tired and lethargic, their dick don't work etc. etc.. when in reality, 4 weeks into a test cycle you should feel like a million bucks. the reason they have all these negative sides and their cycle is shit is because they started taking an AI from day one.


I've had a lot of clients that are complete newbs to AAS that I've helped with their first cycles. and never is an AI used from day one (again thats horrible advice imo) and they have all had amazing results . and not only the new users , of the 35 or so clients that I have currently that are running AAS, I think I have only one of them running an AI on their cycles . quite a few of these clients are members here, and they have went on record saying they have had amazing gains once they dropped their AI usage once signing up with me.. they are make some of the best gains in their lifting career now


and on a side note - regarding beginner cycles . apart from AI usage . I think 'test only' cycles for a new AAS user are not the best choice at all.

its like trying to teach a 16 year old kid how to drive in a 1938 4 speed Ford model T car ,, rather then teaching them in a 2019 car thats automatic and has all the safety features and ease of use features.

I think Test only cycles is that old ford model T and its best used as a main cycle compound for more advanced users that already know how to drive



edit - correction , I won't say that using an AI from day one of a long ester test only cycle is "horrible advice" ,, thats a stretch. I will say its un-informed and outdated advice derived from a mis understanding on the benefits of estrogen in AAS cycling (ie, nor realizing your estrogen is SUPPOSED to go up when your androgen levels elevate. thats how the body was designed to work and does work)

Isnt that what old school used to so, test deca dbol, without an ai? But upgraded stuff, i mean updated to 2k19 game rules lol
Interesting, im tempted to go without an AI, or maybe run it at week 4 to 12
I will pull bloods and see where my estro is atm, didnt in a while
I was planning to go test 500mg week, anadrol 50mg for 4 weeks and maybe primo at 200mg/week, training wise focus is on back and shoulders
I like to go in dept of everything, since im in a science department regarding molecular mechanicms of well biology lol, im planing a endocrinology master, so GH... Any articles you got on this or personal in dept experience id love to read
Respect man, debates like this is what i love about these forums

Bbing got me interested in Endocrinology and id love to be able to help people and get educated as much as possible, so bring it on, always eager to learn more if its facts and experiment based

[GearHeaded]

Isnt that what old school used to so, test deca dbol, without an ai? But upgraded stuff, i mean updated to 2k19 game rules lol

well why do you think the old school guys were all huge and jacked and back then you could definitely tell who the juice heads were and who the nattys were .. where as now days, half the guys in the gym that don't even look like they lift are on gear. your average 150 pound college kid is on a gram of test and tren , but doesn't look like it . why ? cause they are all highly abusing AI's and crashing their E levels cause they are afraid of a little bit of water retention or getting gyno .
its not the quality of the gear thats changed . its the introduction of AI's and their over use and abuse that are dramatically hindering gains. you can't grow without estrogen. the old school guys didn't worry about AI's (didn't have them for the most part) and they grew like crazy.

[GearHeaded]

in regards to you having never heard that estrogen is important to have elevated when on cycle and trying to grow (you've never heard of bodybuilders running birth control pills while on cycle to get their E levels raised even higher)..
give this a read
https://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-...c-hormone.html

in regards to water retention as a 'negative side effect' of estrogen.. um I'm going to say for muscle building and putting on size, its a positive benefit, not a negative one. water retention helps build muscle.
https://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-...pensation.html

[GearHeaded]

heres a guy , Jordan Peters, that was 140 pounds in college that bulked up to being a 300 pound pro bodybuilder in only like 7 years.. he is an advocate for NOT using AI's, and the only time he has used them is very shortly in contest prep , but never used them when trying to put on muscle.
Attachment 177129
no AI's and elevated estrogen levels helped him grow obviously (which is the reason cattle are injected with a shit ton of estrogen as well when they give them androgens ,, because estrogen is very anabolic when androgen levels are high)

now here is your average steroid forum member who runs a few test only cycles every year and always runs an AI, after 7 years
Attachment 177130

ok I'm joking around a little with that last comment , but you guys that have been in the game for awhile and been around know exactly what I'm talking about

[GearHeaded]

I'm not sure if any of you guys have ever noticed this .. I've noticed it first hand simply because I work with a lot of female clients.

but a female can run a high dose of T3 and not lose any muscle. she keeps her fullness no problem even in a calorie deficit and trying to cut and being on 50mcg of T3 .. but then you hear all the time from guys who are in contest prep or cutting , running T3 and then complaining about all the muscle they are losing.. they will say things like "T3 doesn't distinguish between fat or muscle, it burns them both up" .

well why doesn't T3 burn up the females muscle and only the male . my theory based on practical experience with people is that most guys that are losing muscle while running T3 are in a cutting or contest prep phase, and they are running AI's to keep estrogen and water retention low. its the low estrogen that is responsible for the muscle loss . the female has naturally high estrogen and the T3 doesn't cause her to lose muscle.. with low estrogen and a supraphysiological metabolism because of the T3 the guy loses muscle .
thats because estrogen is anti catabolic and anabolic. estrogen plays a big role in glucose metabolism and keeps the muscle full and loaded with glycogen.

when your a guy and your cutting, in a calorie deficit, doing cardio, and running a bunch of T3 with crashed or super low E levels because of taking an AI ,, your going to lose muscle. ditching the AI and keeping your E levels in a higher range in ratio with your androgen levels is going to aide you in retaining a lot more muscle while cutting.

when dieting down and cutting , keep your E levels on the higher end guys. you'll retain a lot more muscle


note- how do I know that estrogen plays such an important role in glucose metabolism (besides reading it in biology).. anecdotal evidence. I've seen it first hand and so have other bodybuilders and coaches. when a guy is a week out from a contest, depleted, and taking a bunch of anti estrogens to get 'dry' and then the day before the show he tries to carb load and fill out , but he can't fill out at all . his muscles are not taking in the glycogen.. thats because he crashed his estrogen . so now he may be 'dry' but he is going to look flat and soft because he can't carb load.
don't crash your estrogen going into a show guys ! you need normal E levels to carb load and fill out the muscle

[GearHeaded]

and why do most guys get so big and full and round and super strong in the gym and get massive pumps in the gym when running a high dose of dbol ??

yep, you guessed it. its the estrogen playing a big role in all that. and Dbol converts to a more "powerful" ie bio available, form of estrogen that is 5x more "potent" then what test converts to . so that estrogen is playing a key role in the positive attributes of what Dbol provides .

now why would you want to go taking a Dbol, and then a bunch of AI just to blunt and mute the powerful effects Dbol is meant to provide in the first place


sure some guys have ran plenty of dbol with an AI and got great results.. but they were likely not taking much of an AI and the E levels were still elevating.. but again, point of this thread is if you don't want the elevated E levels and all the benefits that come with it, then why are you running a super estrogenic compound like Dbol in the first place , why not just run Tbol instead and not mess with an AI

[GearHeaded]

Yes, there are other compounds that are DHT derivates or else
Tbh i tried winny on my cut, in the end of it, prostate felt horrible

this is irrelevant to the topic at hand,, but figured I'd mention this.

this is the reason you had prostate issues. and its NOT because Winstrol is a "DHT" like most guys think . Winstrol is not a DHT, its a derivative of DHT and as such it has already structurally been 5 alpha reduced ,, therefore it can no longer be that in the body and so its impossible for it to convert to DHT.

but, the reason you had DHT side effects was because Winstrol can fairy dramatically reduce SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin) which is a sex-streroid binding protein that binds up 'estrogen' 'testosterone' and 'Dht' and holds onto them in "storage" (sort of speak) . now more then anything SHBG binds up DHT mainly. so when your SHBG gets significantly lowered your suddenly have an onslaught of DHT free and available..

so it was the DHT that you already had stored and available in your body that caused the prostate issue , and not the Winstrol itself directly

now lowering SHBG is generally thought of as a good thing cause you'll then have more free androgens and estrogen which is true, but if your DHT sensitive be aware as you'll also have much more available DHT.


this can also be a tool for your "tool" though as well.. if your running say for example deca, and having issues getting hard in the bedroom, then you can always add some Winstrol or Proviron to lower your SHBG and free up more DHT (which plays a big role in the erection process).
deca coverts to DHN, not DHT.. and DHN will bind to DHT receptors and 'tie them up' yet not illicit any androgenic effects. so over time you get less and less DHT available to you when on a deca cycle.

[Obs]

this is irrelevant to the topic at hand,, but figured I'd mention this.

this is the reason you had prostate issues. and its NOT because Winstrol is a "DHT" like most guys think . Winstrol is not a DHT, its a derivative of DHT and as such it has already structurally been 5 alpha reduced ,, therefore it can no longer be that in the body and so its impossible for it to convert to DHT.

but, the reason you had DHT side effects was because Winstrol can fairy dramatically reduce SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin) which is a sex-streroid binding protein that binds up 'estrogen' 'testosterone' and 'Dht' and holds onto them in "storage" (sort of speak) . now more then anything SHBG binds up DHT mainly. so when your SHBG gets significantly lowered your suddenly have an onslaught of DHT free and available..

so it was the DHT that you already had stored and available in your body that caused the prostate issue , and not the Winstrol itself directly

now lowering SHBG is generally thought of as a good thing cause you'll then have more free androgens and estrogen which is true, but if your DHT sensitive be aware as you'll also have much more available DHT.


this can also be a tool for your "tool" though as well.. if your running say for example deca, and having issues getting hard in the bedroom, then you can always add some Winstrol or Proviron to lower your SHBG and free up more DHT (which plays a big role in the erection process).
deca coverts to DHN, not DHT.. and DHN will bind to DHT receptors and 'tie them up' yet not illicit any androgenic effects. so over time you get less and less DHT available to you when on a deca cycle.

You've said all this before but that needs to be easy to find.
Lot of info here so I will blog it I guess.

[Myers]

Great info, thank you GH

[i_SLAM_cougars]

Can we make this a sticky since all our stickies are old and out dated?

[GearHeaded]

if Testosterone did not convert to estrogen at a high level like it does ,, then it would NOT be very anabolic. its the estrgeonic side of test that up regulates HGH and IGF production to build muscle tissue. its the estrogenic aspect of test that boosts and controls the male libido and sex drive (testosterone itself doesn't).. its the estrogenic side of test that helps up regulate nitric oxide and increase blood flow and vascularity.. its the estrogenic side that helps glucose metabolism, loading glycogen in muscle cells, and providing you with a pump at the gym (you ever wonder why you get massive pumps in the gym when taking Dbol , well its because Dbol is so damn estrogenic)

so why take Test , then purposely take a drug (an AI) that blocks all these positive muscle building benefits that test has because of its conversion to estrogen.

if you think its the androgenic aspect of test that builds muscle your wrong. in fact DHT (the androgen that test converts to) is NOT anabolic in muscle tissue. it can't be. because of an enzyme in muscle tissue known as 3hsd that binds to DHT in muscle tissue and renders it in active. it can't illicit any muscle building effects directly .

its largely the estrogenic aspects of test that make test a good muscle builder

[Windex]

Way too many compounds for me tbh, i made great gains on test and dbol only even with ai, i got paranoid after this thread that i could have made even more, but then again i dont think AI is an issue at such a low dose, i resprct GH but my opinion is that estro sensitive people should run AI and i dont get that much hate going on around this.
Id never add more than a single new compound besides what ive already run

AI's are extremely toxic on your body. I would do chemotherapy before using an AI again and that's not an exaggeration. If you want to limit yourself to two compounds then simply run 150mg of Test + 600-800mg of Primo.