STOP running estrogenic compounds if you don't want estrogen sides !!!!

[GearHeaded]

ok so I've said this over and over again on here. but I figured I'd make a post and make it as clear as possible, especially to our newer members on here.

so you want to run a cycle BUT , for whatever reason you don't want elevated estrogen (which is in itself silly being elevated estrogen in the presence of elevated androgens is extremely anabolic and is the whole reason your cycling to begin with .. but whatever, for some reason you want to keep your E levels low while on cycle) .

ok , I get it . you want to run a cycle but keep E levels in the low range. fine. but why in the hell are you picking Test and Dbol as your compounds to run !! then choosing to run a whole bunch of an AI or Nolva just to block estrogen.
thats completely defeating the purpose of those two compounds . you run those compounds FOR the estrogen conversion to begin with.

it makes zero sense to run test only cycles or test and dbol cycles , when you want to keep E levels low . thats like deciding to buy a Ferrari and then put a speed governor on it (like an AI) that only lets it go 40 miles per hour.. lol whats the point.
the reason you run test and dbol is FOR the estrogen conversion in the first place! if your going to run those compounds, then block the estrogen (which is what those compounds do) then your defeating the purpose.


are you not aware that a majority of the AAS available to us don't convert to estrogen in the first place ! ?

if your going to run a cycle and you want to keep E levels low (which again I don't think is optimal , unless your getting on stage) then design your cycle using non estrgeonic compounds . its that simple guys !!!
and screw the idea of test only cycles and test has to be the foundation of every cycle you do.. thats BS. if you want to keep E levels on the low end, then simply don't mess with test, or just keep it super low.

look , heres a list of a ton of compounds you can run and stacks you can put together without having to worry about elevated estrogen . none of these drugs would require an AI (in fact some of them actually lower E levels).
- Primo
- Anavar
- Masteron
- DHB
- Stenbolone
- Wnstrol
- Deca
- NPP
- Tren
- Eq
- halotestin
- superdrol
etc etc.. I could go on. point being, you can run AAS for years without ever having to touch an AI or estrogenic compound

why everyone, that wants to keep E levels low, keeps reverting to test only cycles is just ridiculous . expand your horizons.. run actual anabolic steroids, that provide more results and less sides then test, and don't convert a ton over to estrogen (if thats your goal ,, again I personally think estrogen is useful and should be part of most cycles.. but to each their own)

[CALLMEOCT]

ok so I've said this over and over again on here. but I figured I'd make a post and make it as clear as possible, especially to our newer members on here.

so you want to run a cycle BUT , for whatever reason you don't want elevated estrogen (which is in itself silly being elevated estrogen in the presence of elevated androgens is extremely anabolic and is the whole reason your cycling to begin with .. but whatever, for some reason you want to keep your E levels low while on cycle) .

ok , I get it . you want to run a cycle but keep E levels in the low range. fine. but why in the hell are you picking Test and Dbol as your compounds to run !! then choosing to run a whole bunch of an AI or Nolva just to block estrogen.
thats completely defeating the purpose of those two compounds . you run those compounds FOR the estrogen conversion to begin with.

it makes zero sense to run test only cycles or test and dbol cycles , when you want to keep E levels low . thats like deciding to buy a Ferrari and then put a speed governor on it (like an AI) that only lets it go 40 miles per hour.. lol whats the point.
the reason you run test and dbol is FOR the estrogen conversion in the first place! if your going to run those compounds, then block the estrogen (which is what those compounds do) then your defeating the purpose.


are you not aware that a majority of the AAS available to us don't convert to estrogen in the first place ! ?

if your going to run a cycle and you want to keep E levels low (which again I don't think is optimal , unless your getting on stage) then design your cycle using non estrgeonic compounds . its that simple guys !!!
and screw the idea of test only cycles and test has to be the foundation of every cycle you do.. thats BS. if you want to keep E levels on the low end, then simply don't mess with test, or just keep it super low.

look , heres a list of a ton of compounds you can run and stacks you can put together without having to worry about elevated estrogen . none of these drugs would require an AI (in fact some of them actually lower E levels).
- Primo
- Anavar
- Masteron
- DHB
- Stenbolone
- Wnstrol
- Deca
- NPP
- Tren
- Eq
- halotestin
- superdrol
etc etc.. I could go on. point being, you can run AAS for years without ever having to touch an AI or estrogenic compound

why everyone, that wants to keep E levels low, keeps reverting to test only cycles is just ridiculous . expand your horizons.. run actual anabolic steroids, that provide more results and less sides then test, and don't convert a ton over to estrogen (if thats your goal ,, again I personally think estrogen is useful and should be part of most cycles.. but to each their own)

Fantastic thread man!

After reading it; would you think Masteron plus Equipoise alone, with no test can sync? I used Equipoise before with test, and loved Equipoise; felt like i was never tired doing cardio and got sick pumps during last few weeks of the cycle at the gym. Im now considering masteron as a new compount i've never tried.

[GearHeaded]

Fantastic thread man!

After reading it; would you think Masteron plus Equipoise alone, with no test can sync? I used Equipoise before with test, and loved Equipoise; felt like i was never tired doing cardio and got sick pumps during last few weeks of the cycle at the gym. Im now considering masteron as a new compount i've never tried.

you can definitely run 'no test' cycles if you know how to properly stack other compounds.
I recently ran EQ as my base anabolic , added a low dose of tren as my main androgen, and added only 10mg of Dbol per day to provide some DHT and a little bit of estrogen (you need some estrogen to function.. estrogen, not test, is what controls the male sex drive).
EQ is a great replacement cause its acts on the androgen receptors in a very similar fashion as does test. you could pretty much just consider EQ non estrogenic test.

if you wanted to run for example a 1000mg of test cycle, but wanted to keep estrogen low,, rather then running the 1000mg of test with an AI . you simply run 200mg of test, and add 800mg of EQ to make up the difference as a 'test replacement' sort of speak

[Mula]

I think the main problem is that many are afraid of gyno aka man boobs. That's probably why they are chasing the lower estrogen aspect of cycling.

[Kyle1337]

I think the main problem is that many are afraid of gyno aka man boobs. That's probably why they are chasing the lower estrogen aspect of cycling.

Then use a SERM like Nolva. Problem solved.

[GearHeaded]

I think the main problem is that many are afraid of gyno aka man boobs. That's probably why they are chasing the lower estrogen aspect of cycling.

yeah but thats kinda like being afraid to lift weights and train hard in case you accidentally become a 300 pound bodybuilder . its just NOT going to happen unless your genetically pre-disposed to it. you can't just accidentally get gyno. you have to have a genetic factor that leads to gyno.
I personally can run 2000 mg of test per week with 1000 mg of tren on top of it, and not so much as even get an itchy nipple , let alone gyno... yet other guys get gyno just from a trt dose of test, because of their genetics.

you shouldn't be afraid of it unless you know your pre-disposed to it, and if you are then your going to get gyno no matter what you do.
its like being afraid your going to die of cancer at 70 years old, yet everyone in your family has a history of heart disease and a genetic pre-disposition to that and your likey going to die of a heart attack at 50 , way before you have a chance to die of cancer at 70 .
yeah thats a grim thought, but genetics make the rules

[Obs]

yeah but thats kinda like being afraid to lift weights and train hard in case you accidentally become a 300 pound bodybuilder . its just NOT going to happen unless your genetically pre-disposed to it. you can't just accidentally get gyno. you have to have a genetic factor that leads to gyno.
I personally can run 2000 mg of test per week with 1000 mg of tren on top of it, and not so much as even get an itchy nipple , let alone gyno... yet other guys get gyno just from a trt dose of test, because of their genetics.

you shouldn't be afraid of it unless you know your pre-disposed to it, and if you are then your going to get gyno no matter what you do.
its like being afraid your going to die of cancer at 70 years old, yet everyone in your family has a history of heart disease and a genetic pre-disposition to that and your likey going to die of a heart attack at 50 , way before you have a chance to die of cancer at 70 .
yeah thats a grim thought, but genetics make the rules

I stopped AI though I got a gyno knot once in a while.
I would knock it out with nolva once in a while.
Ran a long long time at higher dises rotating compound and ran mast. Never had it form again.

Now I have seen insane doses with no AI and no nolva.

Guys on AI can test it like I did if they are afraid.
Skip a dose.
Skip 2
Skip a month
Fuck it.

That was the way I tested it out myself.

Somewhere along the way my body changed and became accustomed to it to where I dont need nolva or AI to prevent estrogen sides. In my case it was just a smaller than a pea sized lump, that was the only side.

Sex drive goes up too in my case with estrogen but thats a welcomed side. Its all around better sex.

God I need some sex

[Kyle1337]

I want to add my 2 cents. I've been on AAS for 4 years. I always ran an AI, kept my E2 around 30-65 at all times. I never ran Nolva unless I did a PCT.

About 5 months ago I stopped using an AI and I have never felt better, or looked better since I made the switch to a SERM like Nolva. I keep Ai on hand and pop .5mg every 2 weeks(Switched to .5mg every 3 weeks after blood work). Bloodwork was just done and pending my results (damn holiday is making it slow), but last time I did it like this they were around 168pg/ml. I expect them to be 200 pg/ml now with the extended timing of AI dose. We will see...

Anyway - I have almost dropped the AI entirely and never felt better. Just my 2 cents.

[Myers]

Ive been an old time, returning member here so i wanna ask something...
Since ive learned most of the stuff about aas from here, members that are way more experienced than i am. .. Always advocated the use of AI
I wasnt around here for some time, and now i pop up before i start my next cycle, and see this, what changed?
Do we not support the use of ai anymore? I was always doing the low dose of 0.25 mcg eod.

[< <Samson> >]

Tren is in its own category - sorta

Estrogenic - no

But, it’ll give you estro like sides - prolactin or whatever the fuck - either of which can become uncontrollable.

I would say deca too - but, surprisingly enough it never gave me these sides



I’m done with the rest - Test + Var is just fine with me

[Dgs59]

You spoke my heart out, thanks, being old user and not being in touch with new guys, this is what I learnt, around 6, 7 years ago The test only cycles was a thing and running AI and HCG during the cycle was must have otherwise you will be bashed. On the top everyone you spoke to was saying gyno gyno and gyno everywhere which made me actually paranoid. How to get out of that paranoia is something I need to work on and trust myself.

Thanks again for the post

[Myers]

Tbh im gonna keep running an low dose AI but...
I will switch to aromasin 12.5 mcg ed, im way too afraid of gyno since ive had the puberty one removed, and i tend to bloat a lot, i might be a bit sensitive to estro sides
Now im paranoid thats gonna hinder my gains a lot lol, although it didnt before

P. S. Hello to everyone again, i wasnt posting for like 2 years, back then i was a lonely student lol, now im married, got my diploma and started working a few months ago, my wife supports my aas use, so i cant wait to start my cycle after a 2 years of break from aas. Glad im back in this community

[balance]

Tbh im gonna keep running an low dose AI but...
I will switch to aromasin 12.5 mcg ed, im way too afraid of gyno since ive had the puberty one removed, and i tend to bloat a lot, i might be a bit sensitive to estro sides
Now im paranoid thats gonna hinder my gains a lot lol, although it didnt before

P. S. Hello to everyone again, i wasnt posting for like 2 years, back then i was a lonely student lol, now im married, got my diploma and started working a few months ago, my wife supports my aas use, so i cant wait to start my cycle after a 2 years of break from aas. Glad im back in this community

If you haven’t begun cycle why not run some different compounds besides a bunch of test (the whole point of this thread)? Example let’s say you were going to run 750mg test weekly with an ai. Instead run 200mg test, 600mg EQ/primo (or maybe npp), and some mast with no AI.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GearHeaded]

If you haven’t begun cycle why not run some different compounds besides a bunch of test (the whole point of this thread)? Example let’s say you were going to run 750mg test weekly with an ai. Instead run 200mg test, 600mg EQ/primo (or maybe npp), and some mast with no AI.

exactly!

Tbh im gonna keep running an low dose AI but...
I will switch to aromasin 12.5 mcg ed, im way too afraid of gyno since ive had the puberty one removed, and i tend to bloat a lot, i might be a bit sensitive to estro sides

the only reason your having to run an AI and try and prevent bloat and gyno is because you'd be running compounds that are estrogenic in the first place.
theres no need to run estrogenic compounds if your estrogen sensitive.


its like saying your going to go ahead and keep taking an aspirin every day for your headache, when the only reason you have a headache is because your purposely hitting yourself in the head with the hammer . forget the damn aspirin and just get rid of the hammer

[Myers]

If you haven’t begun cycle why not run some different compounds besides a bunch of test (the whole point of this thread)? Example let’s say you were going to run 750mg test weekly with an ai. Instead run 200mg test, 600mg EQ/primo (or maybe npp), and some mast with no AI.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Way too many compounds for me tbh, i made great gains on test and dbol only even with ai, i got paranoid after this thread that i could have made even more, but then again i dont think AI is an issue at such a low dose, i resprct GH but my opinion is that estro sensitive people should run AI and i dont get that much hate going on around this.
Id never add more than a single new compound besides what ive already run

[GearHeaded]

Way too many compounds for me tbh, i made great gains on test and dbol only even with ai, i got paranoid after this thread that i could have made even more, but then again i dont think AI is an issue at such a low dose, i resprct GH but my opinion is that estro sensitive people should run AI and i dont get that much hate going on around this.
Id never add more than a single new compound besides what ive already run

theres new research coming out , and some books that will be out soon as well presenting this research that basically points out that AI's are some of worst drugs to use in bodybuilding or TRT . they cause a lot of health and even mental problems that a decade ago we were not aware of.

heres just picture into this
https://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-...l-villian.html

[GearHeaded]

Way too many compounds for me tbh, i made great gains on test and dbol only even with ai, i got paranoid after this thread that i could have made even more, but then again i dont think AI is an issue at such a low dose

test and dbol are the two most estrogenic compounds on earth . if you didn't get gyno running those together, then your clearly not estrogen sensitive or gyno prone (for guys that are genetically prone to gyno, an AI isn't going to help much)..

but if you were thinking your E sensitive, then those are the two worse drugs you could possibly choose to run.

it doesn't make sense for someone who thinks they are estrogen sensitive and gyno prone to run the two most estrogenic compounds , especially when there are 20+ better, more potent, safer, and non estrogenic compounds to run.

^ having said that ,, I like Test and Dbol . I have plenty of clients running that combo and I run it myself all the time . but the reason I pick them and run them together is FOR THE PURPOSE OF GETTING THE ESTROGEN (I want my estrogen levels to get 5x above normal while on that cycle) it would be self defeating to take an AI and blunt the effects of what test/dbol do in the first place

[GearHeaded]

if Testosterone did not convert to estrogen at a high level like it does ,, then it would NOT be very anabolic. its the estrgeonic side of test that up regulates HGH and IGF production to build muscle tissue. its the estrogenic aspect of test that boosts and controls the male libido and sex drive (testosterone itself doesn't).. its the estrogenic side of test that helps up regulate nitric oxide and increase blood flow and vascularity.. its the estrogenic side that helps glucose metabolism, loading glycogen in muscle cells, and providing you with a pump at the gym (you ever wonder why you get massive pumps in the gym when taking Dbol , well its because Dbol is so damn estrogenic)

so why take Test , then purposely take a drug (an AI) that blocks all these positive muscle building benefits that test has because of its conversion to estrogen.

if you think its the androgenic aspect of test that builds muscle your wrong. in fact DHT (the androgen that test converts to) is NOT anabolic in muscle tissue. it can't be. because of an enzyme in muscle tissue known as 3hsd that binds to DHT in muscle tissue and renders it in active. it can't illicit any muscle building effects directly .

its largely the estrogenic aspects of test that make test a good muscle builder

[Windex]

Way too many compounds for me tbh, i made great gains on test and dbol only even with ai, i got paranoid after this thread that i could have made even more, but then again i dont think AI is an issue at such a low dose, i resprct GH but my opinion is that estro sensitive people should run AI and i dont get that much hate going on around this.
Id never add more than a single new compound besides what ive already run

AI's are extremely toxic on your body. I would do chemotherapy before using an AI again and that's not an exaggeration. If you want to limit yourself to two compounds then simply run 150mg of Test + 600-800mg of Primo.

[i_SLAM_cougars]

My buddy’s trainer has him run like 2mg of arimidex a day the week leading up to a show. It makes my joints hurt just thinking about it.

[JackMan017]

Priceless info GH. Info I can not find anywhere else on any PED related sites. Post #18 helped me understand what makes Testosterone so powerful.

Rapping up my 1st week of my 1st cycle. The pumps I get from lifting is nothing short of fantastic. I'm starting to get that "look" and it's only just some water that's started to fill up in the muscles and it's only been 1 week! Eating at or a little less than 1g p/lb of bodyweight of protein and going heavy on these carbs - potatoes, oats, pasta, rice. I'd go less on the protein, but it's too easy for me to over eat on protein. I'm doing 500mg p/week of Enanthate. So far I feel great. I can get into a much deeper sleep. I'm hoping I'm not Estrogen sensitive. Your info regarding Estrogen really hammers to me how powerful Estrogen really is. My plan is not to take an AI for this 15-16 week cycle. We'll see.

[Family_guy]

ok so I've said this over and over again on here. but I figured I'd make a post and make it as clear as possible, especially to our newer members on here.

so you want to run a cycle BUT , for whatever reason you don't want elevated estrogen (which is in itself silly being elevated estrogen in the presence of elevated androgens is extremely anabolic and is the whole reason your cycling to begin with .. but whatever, for some reason you want to keep your E levels low while on cycle) .

ok , I get it . you want to run a cycle but keep E levels in the low range. fine. but why in the hell are you picking Test and Dbol as your compounds to run !! then choosing to run a whole bunch of an AI or Nolva just to block estrogen.
thats completely defeating the purpose of those two compounds . you run those compounds FOR the estrogen conversion to begin with.

it makes zero sense to run test only cycles or test and dbol cycles , when you want to keep E levels low . thats like deciding to buy a Ferrari and then put a speed governor on it (like an AI) that only lets it go 40 miles per hour.. lol whats the point.
the reason you run test and dbol is FOR the estrogen conversion in the first place! if your going to run those compounds, then block the estrogen (which is what those compounds do) then your defeating the purpose.


are you not aware that a majority of the AAS available to us don't convert to estrogen in the first place ! ?

if your going to run a cycle and you want to keep E levels low (which again I don't think is optimal , unless your getting on stage) then design your cycle using non estrgeonic compounds . its that simple guys !!!
and screw the idea of test only cycles and test has to be the foundation of every cycle you do.. thats BS. if you want to keep E levels on the low end, then simply don't mess with test, or just keep it super low.

look , heres a list of a ton of compounds you can run and stacks you can put together without having to worry about elevated estrogen . none of these drugs would require an AI (in fact some of them actually lower E levels).
- Primo
- Anavar
- Masteron
- DHB
- Stenbolone
- Wnstrol
- Deca
- NPP
- Tren
- Eq
- halotestin
- superdrol
etc etc.. I could go on. point being, you can run AAS for years without ever having to touch an AI or estrogenic compound

why everyone, that wants to keep E levels low, keeps reverting to test only cycles is just ridiculous . expand your horizons.. run actual anabolic steroids, that provide more results and less sides then test, and don't convert a ton over to estrogen (if thats your goal ,, again I personally think estrogen is useful and should be part of most cycles.. but to each their own)

This made me think of something interesting. So to play the devils advocate here don’t you think there are other benefits to these estrogenic compounds like test and Dbol and Ment other than just elevating E? So let’s say I take MENT and an AI(not even sure an AI is applicable cuz I don’t think MENT aromatizes but acts on the estrogen receptor itself?) will the MENT not still have plenty of anabolic effect even without the E?

[GearHeaded]

This made me think of something interesting. So to play the devils advocate here don’t you think there are other benefits to these estrogenic compounds like test and Dbol and Ment other than just elevating E? So let’s say I take MENT and an AI(not even sure an AI is applicable cuz I don’t think MENT aromatizes but acts on the estrogen receptor itself?) will the MENT not still have plenty of anabolic effect even without the E?

well the main thing we are looking to get out of running different compounds is this --
each different AAS drug out there has its own set of unique genetic codes and will relay its own unique information/dna to cells that it binds to. that transcribed "information" is mainly what we are after.
even though two different drugs may have similar effects on the body, again each drug is truly unique with its own genetic code its transcribing..

this is one reason why I promote phase cycling and compound rotation . trying to get as much unique and 'new' muscle building information relayed to muscle cells as often as possible.. that information is the main thing we are after.


now the indirect and secondary actions of a compound are also important but not as important as the 'code' .

so yes there are absolutely benefits to be had and realized from estrogenic compounds beside the estrogen factor. the estrogen factor is a secondary action.
Ment has its own unique code and DNA its transcribing to muscle cells. I take Ment cause first and foremost I want that "secret code"


now of course we should pay attention to and use compounds based on their secondary actions as well .
now I'll take Tren, for example, for the "code" its providing to cells . but it also has some cool secondary actions. like being a progestin based compound it interacts with progestin receptors , which in turn makes you more sensitive to estrogen , which in turn sensitizes your liver to estrogen, which in turn then begins to up regulate hepatic IGF output (estrogen works in the liver to produce IGF) . so while on Tren IGF levels begin to elevate.
thats a secondary action we should be aware of when we chose to cycle a compound like tren.

the estrogen aspect of an estrogenic compound is just one aspect of all the different things that compound may do . so its not the only thing I look at when considering a compound or designing a drug stack

[Mula]

well the main thing we are looking to get out of running different compounds is this --
each different AAS drug out there has its own set of unique genetic codes and will relay its own unique information/dna to cells that it binds to. that transcribed "information" is mainly what we are after.
even though two different drugs may have similar effects on the body, again each drug is truly unique with its own genetic code its transcribing..

this is one reason why I promote phase cycling and compound rotation . trying to get as much unique and 'new' muscle building information relayed to muscle cells as often as possible.. that information is the main thing we are after.


now the indirect and secondary actions of a compound are also important but not as important as the 'code' .

so yes there are absolutely benefits to be had and realized from estrogenic compounds beside the estrogen factor. the estrogen factor is a secondary action.
Ment has its own unique code and DNA its transcribing to muscle cells. I take Ment cause first and foremost I want that "secret code"


now of course we should pay attention to and use compounds based on their secondary actions as well .
now I'll take Tren, for example, for the "code" its providing to cells . but it also has some cool secondary actions. like being a progestin based compound it interacts with progestin receptors , which in turn makes you more sensitive to estrogen , which in turn sensitizes your liver to estrogen, which in turn then begins to up regulate hepatic IGF output (estrogen works in the liver to produce IGF) . so while on Tren IGF levels begin to elevate.
thats a secondary action we should be aware of when we chose to cycle a compound like tren.

the estrogen aspect of an estrogenic compound is just one aspect of all the different things that compound may do . so its not the only thing I look at when considering a compound or designing a drug stack

So what would your ideal beginner cycle look like?

I have hesitating between combining test-e/anavar or test-e/winstrol as a first blast...

How would you run them in terms of duration and would you go for a kick-start or rather run them later in the cycle?

Would you also advice combining test-e/anavar/winstrol together? IF yes, what would the ideal cycle durations be for all compounds?

I think if we could get an answer on that we could create a new beginner cycle sticky without the AI's involved...

[GearHeaded]

So what would your ideal beginner cycle look like?

I have hesitating between combining test-e/anavar or test-e/winstrol as a first blast...

How would you run them in terms of duration and would you go for a kick-start or rather run them later in the cycle?

Would you also advice combining test-e/anavar/winstrol together? IF yes, what would the ideal cycle durations be for all compounds?

I think if we could get an answer on that we could create a new beginner cycle sticky without the AI's involved...

great question .

however, this is so much based on individual variables its hard to answer . I have had lots of different clients hire me, and then get on their first cycle and to be honest , every one of their cycles looked different (depending on the persons background, goals, training history, diet and training programing, age, stats .. and wither they were on current HRT or were planning on it).

so because of this I don't even thing a "beginner cycle sticky" is a good idea to have up at all in the first place . just because there are too many variables to factor in , everyone is different, and there is not one standard protocol that fits everyone.

I've helped some guys run first cycles that have looked like this

- Var, Clen, T3 -- (no test no injectables ... "but oral only cycles are a no no , you need test" ,, blah blah blah , BS) .. and guess what, this guy required no AI , there were no estrogen sides . why ? no test and no aromatizing compounds .
cycle worked great . Var is only minimally suppressive and he had no low T symptoms , and he recovered just fine with no PCT

- TRT dose of test with Var or Winny (like your considering) . works like a charm. simple and effective. no negative sides, no AI needed, good gains.

- high dose Primobolan with very low dose Test (like 100mg per week). super clean cycle most guys feel awesome on. quality lean gains slowly over time..
you could actually do this same cycle, but drop the test out all together, and add a low dose of Dbol in its place

now on the other end of the spectrum I've helped newbs run their first cycle that were already on TRT . I ended up doing phase cycling with them

- so one guy on TRT already ,, we upped the Test to 1000mg per week .. added in primo too. then we rotated the primo out and added in Masteron, then at the tail end of the cycle when everything was going great, we ran a little bit of low dose Tren . most people will say not to run tren on a first cycle . well this was phase 3 of his first cycle , so was kinda like his 3rd cycle we just ran it all in a series .

- another guy on TRT . we just added VAR, Clen, and T3 to his Current TRT . then later we added Dbol and dropped the Var . then later we added Tren at super low dose to check his response to androgens, like 25mg per day . then later we dropped compounds and rotated in deca and anadrol . all worked great .

I could keep going . but you get the point . a first cycle is very person dependent and variable. of course "test only" is also an option , I just think in most peoples cases its not the most optimal option (and low dose, long ester test, with an AI from day one .. is a very crappy option)

[Mula]

great question .

however, this is so much based on individual variables its hard to answer . I have had lots of different clients hire me, and then get on their first cycle and to be honest , every one of their cycles looked different (depending on the persons background, goals, training history, diet and training programing, age, stats .. and wither they were on current HRT or were planning on it).

so because of this I don't even thing a "beginner cycle sticky" is a good idea to have up at all in the first place . just because there are too many variables to factor in , everyone is different, and there is not one standard protocol that fits everyone.

I've helped some guys run first cycles that have looked like this

- Var, Clen, T3 -- (no test no injectables ... "but oral only cycles are a no no , you need test" ,, blah blah blah , BS) .. and guess what, this guy required no AI , there were no estrogen sides . why ? no test and no aromatizing compounds .
cycle worked great . Var is only minimally suppressive and he had no low T symptoms , and he recovered just fine with no PCT

- TRT dose of test with Var or Winny (like your considering) . works like a charm. simple and effective. no negative sides, no AI needed, good gains.

- high dose Primobolan with very low dose Test (like 100mg per week). super clean cycle most guys feel awesome on. quality lean gains slowly over time..
you could actually do this same cycle, but drop the test out all together, and add a low dose of Dbol in its place

now on the other end of the spectrum I've helped newbs run their first cycle that were already on TRT . I ended up doing phase cycling with them

- so one guy on TRT already ,, we upped the Test to 1000mg per week .. added in primo too. then we rotated the primo out and added in Masteron, then at the tail end of the cycle when everything was going great, we ran a little bit of low dose Tren . most people will say not to run tren on a first cycle . well this was phase 3 of his first cycle , so was kinda like his 3rd cycle we just ran it all in a series .

- another guy on TRT . we just added VAR, Clen, and T3 to his Current TRT . then later we added Dbol and dropped the Var . then later we added Tren at super low dose to check his response to androgens, like 25mg per day . then later we dropped compounds and rotated in deca and anadrol . all worked great .

I could keep going . but you get the point . a first cycle is very person dependent and variable. of course "test only" is also an option , I just think in most peoples cases its not the most optimal option (and low dose, long ester test, with an AI from day one .. is a very crappy option)

My idea is to run 400 - 500 mg test pw for 10 weeks with 50mg of anavar ed for 6 weeks.

Would you rather throw the anavar in at the first 1-6 weeks, somewhere in between 3-8, or more towards the end 5-10?

[i_SLAM_cougars]

great question .

however, this is so much based on individual variables its hard to answer . I have had lots of different clients hire me, and then get on their first cycle and to be honest , every one of their cycles looked different (depending on the persons background, goals, training history, diet and training programing, age, stats .. and wither they were on current HRT or were planning on it).

so because of this I don't even thing a "beginner cycle sticky" is a good idea to have up at all in the first place . just because there are too many variables to factor in , everyone is different, and there is not one standard protocol that fits everyone.

I've helped some guys run first cycles that have looked like this

- Var, Clen, T3 -- (no test no injectables ... "but oral only cycles are a no no , you need test" ,, blah blah blah , BS) .. and guess what, this guy required no AI , there were no estrogen sides . why ? no test and no aromatizing compounds .
cycle worked great . Var is only minimally suppressive and he had no low T symptoms , and he recovered just fine with no PCT

- TRT dose of test with Var or Winny (like your considering) . works like a charm. simple and effective. no negative sides, no AI needed, good gains.

- high dose Primobolan with very low dose Test (like 100mg per week). super clean cycle most guys feel awesome on. quality lean gains slowly over time..
you could actually do this same cycle, but drop the test out all together, and add a low dose of Dbol in its place

now on the other end of the spectrum I've helped newbs run their first cycle that were already on TRT . I ended up doing phase cycling with them

- so one guy on TRT already ,, we upped the Test to 1000mg per week .. added in primo too. then we rotated the primo out and added in Masteron, then at the tail end of the cycle when everything was going great, we ran a little bit of low dose Tren . most people will say not to run tren on a first cycle . well this was phase 3 of his first cycle , so was kinda like his 3rd cycle we just ran it all in a series .

- another guy on TRT . we just added VAR, Clen, and T3 to his Current TRT . then later we added Dbol and dropped the Var . then later we added Tren at super low dose to check his response to androgens, like 25mg per day . then later we dropped compounds and rotated in deca and anadrol . all worked great .

I could keep going . but you get the point . a first cycle is very person dependent and variable. of course "test only" is also an option , I just think in most peoples cases its not the most optimal option (and low dose, long ester test, with an AI from day one .. is a very crappy option)

Listen to this dude. The correct answer is to find someone like him from the start. I wish I would have found him (or someone like him) when I was about 19-20 year old.

To compare... it’s like thinking you know how to make a car go fast because you’ve worked on them for 10 years. You’ve torn down engines and rebuilt them. You’ve built your own race cars. Problem is you get set in your ways. You get ideas in your head and they become gospel. Then this fucking engineer comes along with all these “crazy ideas“. So you observe from a distance. Try some of them out. Son of a bitch the kid is onto something... next thing you know you’re asking the mad scientist to make you into Frankenstein.

[GearHeaded]

So what would your ideal beginner cycle look like?

I have hesitating between combining test-e/anavar or test-e/winstrol as a first blast...
..

a first cycle of 250mg of test with 50mg per day of Var, for 8 or so weeks , is a plenty effective cycle with great results and little negative side effects and of course no AI to be considered.

the anabolic load of that cycle is equal to running 2,350 mg per week of test .. that is so so so much more effective and anabolic then a 500mg of test with AI cycle

note - keep in mind Var is 6x more anabolic then test (and for a lot of people is nearly side effect free)

[Family_guy]

So what would your ideal beginner cycle look like?

I have hesitating between combining test-e/anavar or test-e/winstrol as a first blast...

How would you run them in terms of duration and would you go for a kick-start or rather run them later in the cycle?

Would you also advice combining test-e/anavar/winstrol together? IF yes, what would the ideal cycle durations be for all compounds?

I think if we could get an answer on that we could create a new beginner cycle sticky without the AI's involved...

What are your goals?? I asked GH this very question and he asked me this. Are you trying for gains at any cost? Or you want to recover after your cycle very easily?

The cycle your proposing would fall into the second category of very easy to recover from and proven “mild” compounds

[i_SLAM_cougars]

But if you’re going to try it on your own then go for the path of least resistance. Try test, but go right for 750-800mg. It works better, and if it doesn’t work for you, you’re going to know pretty fast. Or 250mg of test and 600mg of primo. I don’t think anyone has adverse reactions to primo other than being broke. The test/var combo you mentioned is also good.

My favorite side effect free substance to date is DHB, but you’re not likely to find it right off the bat, and it’s likely to be fake. But when it’s real, you’ll know.

[Windex]

Masteron E is dosed typically 200mg or 250mg/mL and is going to be priced somewhere between $70-$85 per 10mL bottle (depending on Lab, country, etc).

So that dose of Mast is going to accomplish the same thing as an AI more or less and cost LESS than buying a coffee everyday from McDonalds or wherever.

[JohnnyV85]

What about for those of us that are on TRT dose of Test and want to keep E2 levels in the lower range. Im not gyno prone nor have I experience very much water bloat but I did feel way more moody before I started taking 12.5mg of Aromasin daily. Since then not so much rage. Is there anything I can replace the Aromasin with that will help?

[i_SLAM_cougars]

What about for those of us that are on TRT dose of Test and want to keep E2 levels in the lower range. Im not gyno prone nor have I experience very much water bloat but I did feel way more moody before I started taking 12.5mg of Aromasin daily. Since then not so much rage. Is there anything I can replace the Aromasin with that will help?

TRT is only going to put you in the normal testosterone range. So your E2 should not be very elevated.

I would imagine even if it is at the beginning, your body will adapt over time.

[JackMan017]

Elevated Estorgen & Test levels together create that synergistic effect of adding muscle, which if I understand is the entire basis of why one would cycle with just Testosterone. So then how do other compounds that have no estrogen conversion or little conversion or actually reduce estrogen add muscle?

Wrapping up week 2 of Test only and still no A.I. Feeling good. Weight's up a little bit, but all in all, lets keep it going.

[Kyle1337]

Elevated Estorgen & Test levels together create that synergistic effect of adding muscle, which if I understand is the entire basis of why one would cycle with just Testosterone. So then how do other compounds that have no estrogen conversion or little conversion or actually reduce estrogen add muscle?

Wrapping up week 2 of Test only and still no A.I. Feeling good. Weight's up a little bit, but all in all, lets keep it going.

Estrogen isn't the only thing that builds muscle... Many factors result in building muscle,. It all stems from step 1, fucking hard work in the gym.

[Charlie67]

Estrogen isn't the only thing that builds muscle... Many factors result in building muscle,. It all stems from step 1, fucking hard work in the gym.

Step 1a, fucking hard work in the kitchen.

[GearHeaded]

Elevated Estorgen & Test levels together create that synergistic effect of adding muscle, which if I understand is the entire basis of why one would cycle with just Testosterone. So then how do other compounds that have no estrogen conversion or little conversion or actually reduce estrogen add muscle?

Wrapping up week 2 of Test only and still no A.I. Feeling good. Weight's up a little bit, but all in all, lets keep it going.

estrogenic muscle growth pathways are much different then anabolic AAS growth pathways.. the body doesn't just have 'one way' it builds muscle, it builds muscle through all sorts of various mechanisms. this is why I like to stack compounds and growth factors together, to try and hit all those different pathways . so combining estrogen with androgens with anabolics with HGH etc..

an Anabolic builds muscle mainly from binding to receptors and then communicating to the cell to 'up regulate protein synthesis' .. estrogen on the other hand helps build muscle more indirectly by helping the liver produce more IGF (insulin like growth factor) as well as promoting blood flow and nitric oxide production (you can't build muscle without sufficient blood flow) and also via glucose metabolism (estrogen plays a role in bringing glycogen into muscle cells).

[Mula]

an Anabolic builds muscle mainly from binding to receptors and then communicating to the cell to 'up regulate protein synthesis' .. estrogen on the other hand helps build muscle more indirectly by helping the liver produce more IGF (insulin like growth factor) as well as promoting blood flow and nitric oxide production (you can't build muscle without sufficient blood flow) and also via glucose metabolism (estrogen plays a role in bringing glycogen into muscle cells).

Nice.

So how would you categorize the following 3 compounds?: Proviron, Anavar, Winstrol?

I've been looking all 3 and honestly they all look promising even winstrol with the known sides...

1.Test-e/Proviron
2.Test-e/Anavar
3.Test-e/Winstrol

Those are 3 cycles i have a hard time with choosing one of them. I could possibly also stack them all 3 together but i don't know about that really. Don't have enough knowledge yet to give my opinion on that.

[GearHeaded]

Nice.

So how would you categorize the following 3 compounds?: Proviron, Anavar, Winstrol?

I've been looking all 3 and honestly they all look promising even winstrol with the known sides...

1.Test-e/Proviron
2.Test-e/Anavar
3.Test-e/Winstrol

Those are 3 cycles i have a hard time with choosing one of them. I could possibly also stack them all 3 together but i don't know about that really. Don't have enough knowledge yet to give my opinion on that.

Anavar is a pure Anabolic (not androgenic or estrogenic) - it will build muscle. added bonus feature is its ability to up regulate Creatine Phosphate (and thus boost athletic performance)

Winstrol is a pure Anabolic (not androgenic or estrogenic) - it will build muscle. added bonus feature is its ability to block Cortisol (a catabolic and fat storing hormone that usually elevates when dieting down)

Proviron is a pure Androgen (not anabolic or estrogenic) - it will not build muscle directly. its main purpose is to lower SHBG so that you'll get more free available test and DHT (mainly DHT). elevating DHT and free test can have some sexual benefits and some cosmetic benefits to the muscle, but again it will not build muscle directly like anabolics do.


I wouldn't consider running Proviron as part of a stack unless its needed for some Ancillary effects . like for example , if you'd been on a long run of high dose Deca and your androgen load has gone way down and your sex drive is now crashed .. Adding proviron here can help cause it will increase DHT (androgens). but again its just an ancillary, not a stand alone AAS


Winny and Var can be added to basically any stack to add more anabolic load to the stack and get those couple extra benefits they provide as well (they are both 3-6x more anabolic then test on a mg per mg basis)

[Mula]

Anavar added bonus feature is its ability to up regulate Creatine Phosphate (and thus boost athletic performance)

Winstrol added bonus feature is its ability to block Cortisol (a catabolic and fat storing hormone that usually elevates when dieting down)

Proviron is a pure Androgen (not anabolic or estrogenic) - it will not build muscle directly. its main purpose is to lower SHBG so that you'll get more free available test and DHT (mainly DHT). elevating DHT and free test can have some sexual benefits and some cosmetic benefits to the muscle, but again it will not build muscle directly like anabolics do.

Yeah, i've been reading about their profiles yesterday in the database. Some interesting attributes indeed it seems they all have their own benefits.

Winstrol - Beyond a reduction in SHBG, which is one of its primary traits, Winstrol will enhance protein synthesis and greatly increase nitrogen retention in the muscles. The steroid will also do a fairly decent job at increasing red blood cell count and inhibiting glucocorticoid hormones


I've been reading some logs over on reddit from people running proviron with test and i was actually quite surprised of the effects it provided to them. Some claim to even have better results from running proviron with testosterone compared to other compounds. A part from the sexual benefits which speaks for themselves.

BTW - Would your advice abstaining from orgasm during a cycle? I saw this documentary on mike tyson not so long ago he was saying in his prime he was abstaining for 6 to 12 months at least if not longer. Might explain why his physique and performance was so tremendous.