Fight the Pro-Hormone Ban: The official defense site.

**Dante** · 12-19-2002, 05:23 PM

But they write some letters, and PH's are gone. That shows their influence. And for even if the president used protein powders , he could still have his "supply" while caving in to requests. Again, public perception will always determine political outcome.

I'm sure that he uses Vitamins, too. But you missed Dio's point. Vitamins were barely saved. I'm sure that many European leaders use such basic supplements as Vitamins/Minerals. That didn't stop them from restricting them.

**YellowJacket** · 12-19-2002, 05:34 PM

Their influence is irrelevant when it comes to banning PROTEIN. Banning protein....am I the only one who undertands how ignorant that sounds? I have to admit, Im disappointed at the goverment picking on PHs, especially at a time when there are much more important things on the agenda. Patrick Arnold and I were discussing this. This PH ban is going to upset thousands of people....do you think the goverment has the balls to abolish the use of protein supplements after something like that? No and Ill tell you why....its absurd!

When PHs are banned, I think a lot of people will venture to AAS use, what do you do when protein is banned? Eat more chicken and beef and drink lots of milk. Think of it beyond a political battle. Pro Hormones are a direct performance enhancing drug, ban it from the NCAA, yes, from the general public no. This discussion has gone WAY off topic, now we seemingly seem to be protesting the ban of protein. That cracks me up. If you ban PHs from bodybuilders/weekend warriors, they'll be pissed, but life goes on. Now you ban something like a protein supplement, theres going to be hell to pay. A LOT more people will be pissed and outraged at a protein ban than a PH ban, sorry but thats the truth. Protein powder is almost essential in tissue contruction and repair, you do away with this, a lot of people will suffer. You take away PHs, how many people could this physically hender gains? None.

Fact: Bodybuilding to most is a hobby; people can and will train without pro hormones. Ban protein and see how many people raise up against this, a hell of a lot more than are against PHs. This is another reason why protein is safe from regulation and the fact to ban a protein powder is laughable.

Regardless, I hate to see PHs banned and I wish the best for Avant Labs among other PHs companies. I will now bow out from this debate as what I have to say has been said and there will never be an agreement.

**Dante** · 12-19-2002, 05:35 PM

So now we've at least shown that Protein supplements are not above suspicion. In some countries they are restricted and it's certainly not a far cry for this here to come about. One country (can't remember which) actually restricts the amount of protein per serving, which is stupid as one can double up the serving, but still this goes to show.

So hardly was this a scare tactic and hardly am I an illogical idiot. I made my points and defended them. And sadly I wish that I still had a vested interest to deal with such thoughts.

**Dante** · 12-19-2002, 05:37 PM

I am now out, as well. But hopefully you now know that Protein is hardly out of reach. I never stated that's it's definitely to go, but to state that it's impossible is pure ignorance and to that we won't agree. The evidence has certainly been provided on this thread. You just provide your hopes. That's not enough in this shit-of-states that's now our country.

We take far too many things for granted and assume them to be forever here. Imagine where people can't access the simple vitamins that we can in Walgreens! Seems absurd to one who doesn't understand.

**YellowJacket** · 12-19-2002, 05:41 PM

If you dont like the team, leave the stadium.

**Dante** · 12-19-2002, 05:42 PM

This coming from you is surely a joke.

**YellowJacket** · 12-19-2002, 05:46 PM

Why coming from me? Am I not on your level of wits? You just had your ass handed to you in this thread and I plan pasting it over to my site. I think it'll be good for business. I hope you're a few inches smaller now. Thank you for providing backing for the phrase "money is the root of all evil" Because you could give a shit about the people and their rights, you're only in this to save your ass and your job pimping your products all over the internet. I now realize what a joke you are, and your money hungry, philosophical ass maybe will soon realize that bigger words doesnt mean more intelligence. Obviously.

**Dante** · 12-19-2002, 05:52 PM

I had my ass handed to me? Jesus.

No, I meant "coming from you" as you've always criticized this country.

You're a joke.

**Dante** · 12-19-2002, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by YellowJacket
. Thank you for providing backing for the phrase "money is the root of all evil" Because you could give a shit about the people and their rights, you're only in this to save your ass and your job pimping your products all over the internet.

Avant no longer has their line of PH's. I've explained this, but again you fail to listen and to see.

**Dio** · 12-19-2002, 05:58 PM

I can't believe the singlemindedness you are showing in this thread. First of all there is far more on the agenda of the anti-doping guys than ephedrine. Try creatine, try aminos, try caffeine. The NCAA standards are relevant because they show just how much influence this lobby has. You would think that controlling how much protein the athletes take in is absurd, yet it happens. It should make you think twice before you consider other possibilities absurd.

The point is it starts somewhere. First PHs, then ephedrine, then creatine, then aminos. Protein is controlled in some countries as shown above. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that one thing leads to another.

Tryptophan, an amino acid, is BANNED because of one incedent. Think about it.

**YellowJacket** · 12-19-2002, 06:08 PM

Single minded? I see this from both sides fellas, and you guys are like a gang of desperate men. Think of all the things that are banned in other countries that is legal here?

And you still have yet to show me the article that shows protein regulations in NCAA athletes.

And tryptophan was banned in 1989 and pulled from the market because everyone thought it caused eosinophilia-myalgia (SP?) But in actuality, that disease was a result of a contaminated batch of tryptophan, manufactured in either Japan or China, I cant remember. SO that banning was a farse. So I guess they better ban carbohydrate rich foods then, because tryptophan occurs naturally in those too.

So if what you're saying is correct, they might as well being developing a pill to provide essential macronutrients and vitamins/minerals to keep the human body alive huh? Creatine has been discussed as to being regualted, but to no avail. That was dropped. Protein will be the last thing in this world, or bodybuilding supplementation I should say, to be abolished, because without that, its like sucking tit through a sweater. Might as well do away with professional sports too, becuase EVERY single professional athelete weight trains and I would venture to say 90% of those use a whey protein powder post workout, well if thats illegal then pro sports will be a joke. You guys are killing me here, this is very entertaining.

**Dio** · 12-19-2002, 06:20 PM

I doubt protein will be banned any time soon. You are missing the point.

**Dio** · 12-19-2002, 06:26 PM

Originally posted by YellowJacket

And you still have yet to show me the article that shows <a href="http://www.allsportsnutrition.com/listproducts.php?style=category&value=PROTEIN" target="_blank"><a href="http://www.allsportsnutrition.com/listproducts.php?style=category&value=PROTEIN" target="_blank">protein</a></a> regulations in NCAA athletes.

Done: http://tarheelblue.ocsn.com/school-b...ce/083100.html

EDIT: this one shows actually shows protein powder on the non permissable list: http://www.ncaa.org/databases/report...agenda_s08.htm

**Big H** · 12-19-2002, 07:24 PM

You 'won' dante? What do you mean? I wasn't argueing anything, but the fact that your writing resembles a 10 year old who is trying to sound educated. Don't act like you "beat" me, because we haven't had a debate.

And your saying "put your eye to this." Come on, do you actually TALK like this, or do you crave the attention that people will dispell upon you if they think you are as educated as you type.

**YellowJacket** · 12-19-2002, 07:28 PM

Those are both informative, but they include a broad range of stipulations that wouldnt be hard to exceed. Im not sure of the testing procedure that would be follow to test for protein abuse LoL......

But anyways, Now I want to know why everyone is fighting against this very petty protein restraint? Why is everyone standing up for PHs and not protein? Why? Because PHs are in their finals days, protein- its just fine. The majority of us are not NCAA athletes, so those minor drawbacks to do not apply to us. And before you give me the "if they'll go this far, then they'll ban it from everyone". Let me make a couple points. A. Its not BANNED, slightly regulated and this is the first I have ever heard of this and will be researching more on it, I have a feeling its bogus. B. NCAA athletes are more concerned with their respective sports (ie basketball, baseball, etc) And the amount of weight training they do probably doesnt require 50 grams of protein per serving. These are elite athlete. You can compare the general novice bodybuilding community to some college basketball players in terms of protein needs. The NCAA governing body is obviously a lot different from the United States government. Although it would be hard to convince the NCAA to limit protein consumption, I will again venture to say it would be impossible to limit or totally take away protein powders from the general public.

You guys are making me out to be anti-pro hormone, which is not the case, I only have a problem in the way these "voice your opinion for pro-pro hormones" is being ran.

**Dante** · 12-19-2002, 07:30 PM

You spelled arguing wrong.

We haven't had a "debate" because you offered nothing. And don't say "I can't understand your gibberish", as Dio put forth many the same points, and you can't counter him, either.

If I craved attention, first it would surely be from the opposite sex and secondly, it wouldn't be over the 'net. It's always interesting to observe the dispositions of those that to you, don't offer liking (the converse, true as well). Something to ponder

**Dante** · 12-19-2002, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by Dio

Done: http://tarheelblue.ocsn.com/school-b...ce/083100.html

EDIT: this one shows actually powder on the non permissable list: http://www.ncaa.org/databases/report...agenda_s08.htm

How can this be. We need our athletes to be big and strong.

Several other points:

The price of protein could be elevated if numerous restrictions on them came then to be placed ("banned" combinations, claims, amount per serving, etc). If the "people can die from high protein diets" was played up, it need not be the FDA that brought the hammer down.

Think Ephedrine. Class Actions suits are restricing the supply of Ephedrine and in time (if the FDA doesn't hit first) only several large companies will be left to sell it, creating a de facto monopoly.

**YellowJacket** · 12-19-2002, 07:43 PM

Thats all hypothetical bullshit. The price on snow shovels can elevate if people claim they're being used to murder. People claim a lot of things. For someone who claims to know a lot about politics and someone who is IN the supplement industry, you for one should know that. The goverment wont listen to your average Joe, thats why pimping these threads to voice your opinion are weak. A few hundred people writing mail isnt going to get much done to be blunt.
If you claim that "high protein diets can kill people", then you will be asked to back up those claims with studies, etc. Which someone could not do. There is rhyme and reason behind everything believe it or not.

And again, you cant compare ephedrine to protein, they both serve different physiological purposes in the body. People have died of protein overdoses, know anyone who's died of a protein overdose?
There are no, nor will there be restrictions placed on protein consumption for the general US population. Then you will have to monitor their grocery store purchases.

**Big H** · 12-19-2002, 07:43 PM

Originally posted by Dante
You spelled arguing wrong.

We haven't had a "debate" because you offered nothing. And don't say "I can't understand your gibberish", as Dio put forth many the same points, and you can't counter him, either.

If I craved attention, first it would surely be from the opposite sex and secondly, it wouldn't be over the 'net. It's always interesting to observe the dispositions of those that to you, don't offer liking (the converse, true as well). Something to ponder

Hey, I don't get on your case for misspelling words. I only get on your case when your sentence is too convoluted with gibberish, that one must read it 5 times to grasp the point.

But, enough said.. I haven't said anything about the PH ban. I am against it, as are you.

**Dante** · 12-19-2002, 07:43 PM

I will again venture to say it would be impossible to limit or totally take away

Two questions, then:

1) How did such products come to be restricted in other countries (in different forms).

2) What makes you think that this can't happen here.

you guys are making me out to be anti-pro hormone, which is not the case, I only have a problem in the way these "voice your opinion for pro-pro hormones" is being ran.

The fact you that you stated 'I don't care if they're banned' doesn't help your cause. I have a problem when someone doesn't see the whole picture, what is happening set in light of what could further come.

When the industry is attacked in any shape or form, be wise to see that other strikes can come. The industry as a whole is not the media darling, nor the political darling. Every such aspect of the whole can eventually be assailed.

**Dante** · 12-19-2002, 07:47 PM

Okay, one more try at civility:

Ephedrine isn't dangerous, but that didn't stop the FDA from making an attempt (and doctoring statistics). Granted, they were stopped, but there will be other times and the "tests" could likely be a ruse.

Shovels are far different than supplements. Few people would defend the latter.

I'm not comparing anything to anything, directly but you continually miss the damn point. It's only perception in politics that matters, not truth.

**YellowJacket** · 12-19-2002, 07:49 PM

I dont care because me caring isnt going to get anything done. After I thought more about it, I dont like restrictions placed on me and I dont like/want to see people lose their jobs over this, which is inevitable. Then I had a problem with your arrogance and and lackluster common knowledge, so now if it means people like you having to work elsewhere so be it. Might be an immature approach to this topic, but its a welcome change from the boring, "whos got bigger balls" approach you take towards debating.

And again, you insist on comparing the USA to other countries, I wont argue this because (hopefully) you and I both know they arent comparable.

**Dante** · 12-19-2002, 07:49 PM

Originally posted by Big H

Hey, I don't get on your case for misspelling words. I only get on your case when your sentence is too convoluted with gibberish, that one must read it 5 times to grasp the point.

But, enough said.. I haven't said anything about the PH ban. I am against it, as are you.

Oh, but you accuse me of never having points, and of knowing nothing.

But hey, I'm a happy guy, and your view is your view and mine is, mine.

**YellowJacket** · 12-19-2002, 07:52 PM

Ephedrine is dangerous when abused (oh lord, please tell me this isnt new to you), protein isnt. Its a little difficult to abuse protein since it isnt a recreational drug like ephedrine has been deemed by the government. Shovels are different from supplements, just like US laws are and will remain different from other countries.

**YellowJacket** · 12-19-2002, 07:54 PM

Originally posted by Dante

But hey, I'm a happy guy, and your view is your view and mine is, mine.

Then practice what you preach and quit dragging this thread out with
asinine responses. We're NOT going to reach and agreement, so Ill be the bigger man and agree to disagree (much like Ive done all along)

**Dante** · 12-19-2002, 07:54 PM

Originally posted by YellowJacket

And again, you insist on comparing the USA to other countries, I wont argue this because (hopefully) you and I both know they arent comparable.

Okay, this is beaten into the ground. This is a stupid statement. Obviously you must realize that this country has dratically changed from one decade to the next. So if you think that what's now will be as always, without a public change of perception, you're woefully near-sighted.

As for you, I don't mind being a little arrogant with. You started the thread with accusations, running your mouth as always you do on other boards. No common sense, evincive by the BB.com thread regarding PH and "terrorism". If you would have taken a different, less normal approach, I would have acted as normally I do. But you're not here to learn, and I don't mind taking out some steam on you.

**YellowJacket** · 12-19-2002, 08:01 PM

If taking steam out on me means lowering your maturity level, then by all means, do so, only makes me and my argument better. My claims at bb.com were that the goverment should spend more time worrying about terroism and what can be done about that than picking on a PH ban, if Im not mistaken, thats a move towards agreeing with you, but I didnt figure you'd catch that. You seem to look for negative points in my posts. Running my mouth? Oh big bad Dante doesnt like to be contradicted......get off you high horse and out of your God complex, you just proved what a nobody you are. Sorry I didnt take the approach you would have liked, but thats life, but you wouldnt know anything about it living in your fantasy world where you're always right and your sentences are seemingly longer than your attention span.

I am here to learn and you have nothing to teach. Instead of teaching, you preach about what YOU want and what it will take for YOU to stay in business, well heres a lesson for you Dante, you cant always get what you want and people WONT always agreed with you. And how do you approach this? With nothing but negativity. I have established myself at various boards by being honest, unbiased and standing up for what I believe. You smeared your name by only pimping your products and attacking those who disagree.

**Dio** · 12-19-2002, 08:09 PM

Originally posted by YellowJacket
You smeared you name by only pimping your products and attacking those who disagree.

This couldn't be farther from the truth and you should know it. Personal disagreements aside I would think you would be able to recognize that.

I don't want to prolong this thread with more back and forth. If we're not going to agree, so be it. I will say that you should be supporting this effort, both personally and on your board. You're not without influence and if you really do care about the industry you will support this effort.

This issue is bigger than everyone's personal feelings for each other. There's a much more suitable enemy for everyone to gang up on.
Let's not forget that.

Peace

**Dante** · 12-19-2002, 08:09 PM

Oh, so the following meant what the Government *shouldn't do*

I think you guys are getting way too paranoid over this banning of PHs

I dont know if you've been watching the news, but some guys in airplanes knocked over a couple of buildings in new york so now we have this "war on terror" I think congress and the government has better things to do than worry about banning pro hormones.....by the time (if ever) this war on terror is over, PHs will be forgotten about.

Interesting.

As for me "saving my business", the paucity of your attention span is amazing. How many times need I repeat myself.

**Dante** · 12-19-2002, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by Dio

This issue is bigger than everyone's personal feelings for each other. There's a much more suitable enemy for everyone to gang up on.
Let's not forget that.

Peace

Okay, I'll listen to you, and shut my mouth

**YellowJacket** · 12-19-2002, 08:15 PM

Yes Dio, somehow I knew you'd disagree with me, for the sake of argument of course. Yes, thats what I said Dante -I felt that was a fair statement IN FAVOR saving PHs. At that time I was blind to how serious this ban was. But now that its in the final stages, you guys jumping my nuts isnt going to save them. I agree with Dio, this has nothing to do with you character or mine and I tried to put that aside, but inevitably when you were speechless, the personal attacks came.

And Dio I lost a lot of respect for the big supplement guru's when they persuaded bb.com to ban the homebrew of PHs talk. We wont go into that, but I believe PH talk is BACK at bb.com and elsewhere. My only problem with this whole thread was the lack of honesty. Dont threaten people with a ban of a supplement EVERY bodybuilder uses. You were wise to pick protein, knowing that its the most favorable supplement around. That was all a bullshit ploy to get attention and each of you who participated in this thread know it.

**Dante** · 12-19-2002, 08:49 PM

Fine, I have a few minutes before I head on out to the gym, since you decided to again leave your parting words with accusations, and I have some aggression that I need to let out.

1) Oh, the "letter". Interesting. So you don't think that Ryan, owner of BB.com, would ban discussion of homebrewing by his own accord. It's his business and his profit, afterall. Amusing as well, since the "letter" was revealed as a joke by Mike (or more so a trick to see a connection).

2) I was speechless. Amusing, since your second post was pure slander. And you never logically countered any of my statements. The one regarding Ephedrine and the loss of jobs is especially delicious.

3) I chose Protein so as to show how eventual regulation will affect many on even the most "basic" level since what's considered a necessity can easily become regulation's casualty. The industry will be attacked from many ends as drags time. But this takes some thought and when I explain only to deaf ears, then I don't mind pounding them with hammers.

**YellowJacket** · 12-19-2002, 09:00 PM

Now you're saying Eventually? in you earlier post you said this ban would happen soon? Changing your mind? Hopefully.

I think you owe everyone an apology for insulting their intelligence and I am frankly embarrassed for you. I regret to see PHs go and hope there is some type of loop hole to be found. Personally, I enjoy your posts, Par's posts, Chemo's posts and Patrick's post and I hope you guys dont see this as a defeat. See this as a challenge and strive to keep your business running and find some creative tactics to do so. By no means am I a shrewd businessman, this is just an ol country boy's take on this situation. Thanks for the entertainment fellas, I hope nothing here was taken too personally and wish you both the best and am proud of you for standing up against the goverment. No hard feelings men, YJ

**Dante** · 12-19-2002, 09:09 PM

"Eventually" can mean "sooner or later", or "ultimately/finally". "Soon" was perhaps the wrong word to choose. I don't mean, like, tomorrow. I should have stated "ultimately can an inroad such as this lead to an attack on protein and other supplements".

Even two-years to me is "soon", although that may not be apparent when using that word. It's basically a process in motion, dominos falling down one on top of the other. Two-years from now is not a long ways away, and I'll still be needing protein powder. Unlike some in the field (who work in it, but don't care about health), I love to lift weights.

So I don't apologize as I never insulted anyone's intelligence. In order to do so, someone would have to prove what I said, wrong. I should however have used "eventually", or "ultimately" instead of soon. But that doesn't change my basic premise.

But we all love this industry in some capacity or another;consumer, businessman, or even better, businessman/consumer as sadly some businessmen don't care about their products. So we'll agree on this

**BigMike J** · 12-19-2002, 10:17 PM

**str8flexed** · 12-20-2002, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by Dio
I can't believe the singlemindedness you are showing in this thread. First of all there is far more on the agenda of the anti-doping guys than ephedrine. Try <a href="http://www.allsportsnutrition.com/listproducts.php?style=category&value=CREATINE" target="_blank">creatine</a> , try aminos, try caffeine. The NCAA standards are relevant because they show just how much influence this lobby has. You would think that controlling how much <a href="http://www.allsportsnutrition.com/listproducts.php?style=category&value=PROTEIN" target="_blank">protein</a> the athletes take in is absurd, yet it happens. It should make you think twice before you consider other possibilities absurd.

The point is it starts somewhere. First PHs, then ephedrine, then <a href="http://www.allsportsnutrition.com/listproducts.php?style=category&value=CREATINE" target="_blank">creatine</a> , then aminos. Protein is controlled in some countries as shown above. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that one thing leads to another.

Tryptophan, an amino acid, is BANNED because of one incedent. Think about it.

very good point dio. The distribution of creatine has already been banned (meaning schools cannot supply it to their athletes) Now they have begun looking into banning the use of creatine period. I believe ZMA is on the banned substances list by the NCAA. It wouldn't suprise me at all if protein powder ends up on there after too long. I recently wrote a letter to the NCAA about the safety of creatine among other issues citing sources, anecdotal evidence, long term studies, etc. but I have yet to receive a reply (of course). I do think that a much stronger case can be made for the safety of creatine or protein as opposed to prohormones, but that does not make them untouchable by any means. The commoner decides who gets elected into office...from what I have seen, most commoners also think creatine is a steroid ...just something to think about.

Peace

**YellowJacket** · 12-20-2002, 04:44 PM

I would have to agree to a certain extent with Layne. Get a group of average, working Americans and say "in your opinion which appears to be more dangerous of the following products: creatine, protein or pro hormones?" And Im sure the majority, if not all people would bark out pro horomones. The name more than likely appealing. When my mom and dad were around, I wasnt allow to touch anything with the words "hormone" or "pro steroid " etc. And my parents were the average, working class Americans looking out for their kid.

Now I hate to bring up the protein again, but I think if you asked the majority of working class Americans (at least in my area) could protein be harmful to the body? I believe there would be around a 50/50 response. This mainly due to the misinformation broadcasted by various means of communication. The NCAA hasnt BANNED protein, only limited the consumption of it. An NCAA ban on protein would probably lead to more problems then they wish to encounter, a ban on protein to the general population, if ever, would come far beyond my years on this earth and by time that regulation occured, it would be total chaos.

**str8flexed** · 12-20-2002, 04:48 PM

perhaps you are correct... but better to fight at the early stages than to lose it all later. Unfortunately the american public attatches a stigma to anything labeled muscle building. If it is anabolic it must be bad, I get people all the time who ask a question something like this... "I heard your a natural bodybuilder...so you don't take any of that protein stuff or anything do you?" It is very scary to think how ignorant some people are.
Peace

**YellowJacket** · 12-20-2002, 04:50 PM

Yep..... And this is way off topic, but I think the recent steroids in baseball scandal that was blown up didnt help much either. That only added to the claims "every professional athlete uses steroids " motto.

**SneakerSeven** · 12-20-2002, 09:40 PM

I've taken interest in this topic and have sent letters out to representatives because of it, but I don't understand the arguing that's going on here. Think of it this way- yes, this is the USA, and many things are legal here that aren't in other countries. But that can easily change with proposed bills voted on by lawmakers that know nothing about what they're voting on; all they know is the hype they hear by a scared media that think creatine is a steroid and a low carb diet is deadly to your internal organs. They're over-riding the institutions set up to investigate such things.

Protein was brought up as an example; something that seems so ludicrous to be banned, but the potential is always there. That's the point- IT COULD BE banned, just like everything else. Alcohol was banned at one point, remember? This is the same country that allows fat people to sue food companies for their own lack of willpower. Once the hype builds up, lawmakers won't give a second thought to ban things- it doesn't matter to them. That's why people need to SPEAK UP and stop and educate those who don't understand. I personally have used pro's once, and they were ok; they got me over a plateau. I have never personally used AS; I don't like doing things that are illegal, even if I think the laws are stupid. I don't like the idea of banning things that ARE PERFECTLY FINE. Hell, acetominaphen (sp) is much more toxic than a lot of the stuff that's being covered in this bill.

I can't even remember what I was originally going to say... now I'm all worked up

Don't argue about semantics, the point is that this bill, if passed, would very likely be a first step to many other things. Things like ephedrine that are perfectly safe as long as you aren't stupid (just like every other medicine on the planet) but people are scared of because Connie Chung says it's bad. Bad!