Smith Squat vs. Free Weight Squat...

**ascendant** · 05-06-2006, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by Undecided09

If I have learned anything at all, what swole said here is it!!! As long as you are pushing your body, making sure you properly eat to match what kind of training you want to do (either bulking or cutting), and stay consistent on a day to day basis, I don't see why desireable results can't be seen...

you've missed his point completely and are just looking for the answers you WANT to hear. wake up man. you can't do whatever workout for a muscle you feel like and get the results you want simply cause it works for one person. you need to re-read these threads man, cause you apparently missed a lot.

how you "feel" from a workout means nothing. you have to keep track on a week to week basis of your weight, bf%, measurements, etc, to see specifically what kind of results your getting and where. wishful thinking isn't going to change what works for you and what won't, that's already been decided when you were born (aka genetics).

both me and swole get the best results from our legs doing completely different kinds of training, yet we're both knowledgeable enough to know what works best for us. that right there clearly indicates that different people need different kinds of training depending on their genetic predisposition to muscle compostion, which is either more fast or slow twitch muscle fibers. you seem to have overlooked that.

if you've already made up your mind that you're going to stick with smith squats, which it seems you have, then why start this thread? with so much info contraindicating you just sticking with the smith, it certainly seems as if you had already made up your mind long before making this thread? no offense to swole at all, but other than him and a select couple other people, most people have encouraged you to the free weights for numerous reasons, and swole at least has a very good reason as to why he chooses the smith.

the exercises that work best for people aren't usually the ones you like the most, but the ones you dread the most. if you really don't like doing an exercise, those are usually the ones that your body will adapt most effectively to in order to try to overcome that pain you feel from it. have you ever considered you like the smith more because it isn't as strenuous on your cns, so your subconscious is simply trying to convince your conscious to do the easier one?

you need to re-read my explanation of genetic predisposition to fast and slow twitch muscle fibers and how it affects a muscles adaptation to training again as well, cause that right there will have your answers as for what kind of reps will work for you and why it's not nearly as simple as you want it to be. as far as the exercise, if you truly feel it works better, keep track of your measurements and progress and use that as your guide to what works and what doesn't, not your "feeling" of something just being better.

**Undecided09** · 05-06-2006, 07:27 PM

Prime Example of someone who didn't read the thread properly or understand what I was saying at all

**Undecided09** · 05-06-2006, 07:29 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided09

I go Deep no matter which one I use, thats not an issue, I think you guys are reading this thread wrong...I'm not having any leg trouble, and for the most part I always do free weight squats...I just wanted to know what he advantages/disadvantages/differences between free weight squats and smith squats...

Maybe if you had read this post you wouldn't have wasted your time flaming me when I don't deserve it and agree with everything you just wasted your time typing....

**ascendant** · 05-06-2006, 09:30 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided09

Maybe if you had read this post you wouldn't have wasted your time flaming me when I don't deserve it and agree with everything you just wasted your time typing....

not sure where you misinterpreted my post as flaming, but i can assure you it was only meant to help. after re-reading your posts, i see my assumptions of you focusing on smith squats was incorrect, but nonetheless you made it seem in that post of yours i commented on as if it didn't matter either way, and from your comments prior to that it seemed as if you were leaning in the way of focusing on smith cause you "felt it" more.

in the comment of yours i remarked on, you basically stated that how you trained wasn't so much important as pushing yourself, eating, and consistency. consistency is what causes staleness, so that right there is not a good idea. pushing yourself is of course a must, but if you're not training your body with what works for you by experimentation and documentation of your results so you know for sure, then you can be falling far short of your potential.

**Superballer** · 05-06-2006, 09:41 PM

Great thread! learning lots!

**Undecided09** · 05-07-2006, 12:00 AM

Yeah I didn't mean to call you out, but i was upset when u misinterpreted my entire point of the original post...Also I was just playin a lil devil's advocate in an attempt to keep the opinions on the smith coming thats all...Also, when I talk about consistency, I dont mean doing the same routine year round...I mean stayin consisten with making sure you get to the gym when your supposed to and make a concious effor to eat what your supposed when your supposed to on a daily basis...

M.A.D.

***Narkissos*** · 05-07-2006, 12:08 AM

Originally Posted by SwoleCat

Again, to each his own, but if your legs ain't doing shit from 10 reps and under on squats, man up and go for 15-20 Tom Platz style with a formidable weight. Formidable weight moved for extended periods of time really sends growth signals to the legs and other parts of the body.
~SC~

Agreed.. That's why drop-sets and forced-reps are an important component in my training programme

My coach always made me do high reps + heavy weights.

Said the combination of the two were the key.. I believed him then.. and i still do now

***Narkissos*** · 05-07-2006, 12:12 AM

Originally Posted by Undecided09

Yeah I didn't mean to call you out, but i was upset when u misinterpreted my entire point of the original post...Also I was just playin a lil devil's advocate in an attempt to keep the opinions on the smith coming thats all...Also, when I talk about consistency, I dont mean doing the same routine year round...I mean stayin consisten with making sure you get to the gym when your supposed to and make a concious effor to eat what your supposed when your supposed to on a daily basis...

M.A.D.

I'll reciprocate.. playing 'devil's advocate' myself

You more or less just started training.

You more or less have no idea what 'works' for you personally as yet

That being said...you should stick to the basics

You focus should be on learning the form and improving the lift...

Sticking with a program.. not modifying it because you 'feel' like it.

You have my recommendations in my prior posts

Use them or ignore them

Good luck

Narkissos

**Undecided09** · 05-07-2006, 12:17 AM

I'm not trying to modify anything, I was just curious was people thought about that topic thats all, got my answer, and it turned into this...

**ascendant** · 05-07-2006, 01:01 AM

Originally Posted by Undecided09

I'm not trying to modify anything, I was just curious was people thought about that topic thats all, got my answer, and it turned into this...

it's all good man, just don't take things so personally. why else would we be commenting on the matter unless we were here to help you?

this thread has just about all the info you'd need. if you're unsure about anything in particular that seems as if it hasn't been clarified yet, let us know, either in this thread or if it's something not on topic here, in another. at this point though, i just don't see much left to say on the squat subject.

**Panzerfaust** · 05-11-2006, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by Narkissos

I've worked with people who 'fall foward' during squatting.. These individuals if asked to execute squats in a manner that feels 'natural' for them usually end up going up on their toes when they're at the bottom of the exercise.

This indicates either a muscular imbalance.. or a restricted ROM in the calf musculature.

BUMP for Swole and Papi's input.

Muriloninja.. as to your specific problem: falling foward usually indicates a hamstring/quad imbalance

This can usually be fixed by prioritising hamstring training.

Narkissos

Could be, i'm not sure. I think that it is because i have never free squatted before in my life and felt off balance, i only tried it once though, i did'nt try to adjust much, just said screw that.

Then again i must say that i am not a bodybuilder either, my goals are geared toward fighting and i have no interest in having huge legs and the smith works well for me with what i want to accomplish, i would try free squats if i had a partner just to mix it up.

**Tbone1975** · 05-11-2006, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by Undecided09

Sup boys, got a question about squatting...I always do free weight squats in the squat rack, but on occasion I will squat in the smith machine...today I decided to go smith because I didnt have my lifting parter with me and the gym was empty so no spotter available...I Have to say that in the smith machine the move is so much smoother and I feel like it hits my legs so much harder than the free weight...Now i know my form prolly is far from perfect in the free weight, but nevertheless I feel like the smith machine is really isoing mhy legs much better, does it matter that much which one I use??

I like free better. I think you work slightly different componants with each one too. I think free for one thing are harder and you have to stabilize. On most of those machines, ya gotta realize that bar only weighs like 10 pounds too. I remember one time before I went out to the desert I was squatin' bout 365 for 8 and benchin' bout 275 for 4-6. When I went out to the desert it was at the beginning of the war and all they had where I was was a smith machine. So for about 5 months I trained on that. I thought I was benching 315 for 5 and squating 405 for like 6. At the end of my deployment the free weights arrived. I looked stupid TRYING to bench 275 for 4 as my stabilizers were gone, and could barely squat 315 for 8 without tipping over. Last time I train those exercises on a machine.

**Mike_Huck** · 05-11-2006, 03:56 PM

Undecided09, you have the last word here none of these guys in here know more about your body than yourself, so be your own trainer,
if your seeing results stick with it.

**SwoleCat** · 05-11-2006, 06:58 PM

Here's what you all do that can solve all of this! Not only in regards to how to train just legs, but any bodypart for that matter.

Everybody trains legs as they see fit, trains the other bodyparts as they wish to, eats in the manner they desire, etc. In about 3 months or so, you should all post "final" pics of your physique. So, in this 3 months don't get fat, but work on attaining a physique that you'd want to present to the people you give advice to, take advice from, etc.

I think that would be great, and it would show what all the different approaches do to different people.

~SC~

**SwoleCat** · 05-12-2006, 10:56 AM

Wow, people get all quiet when pictures are mentioned.

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh huh!

~SC~

**Undecided09** · 05-12-2006, 12:58 PM

Not a bad idea swole...I also had my first true bulking diet up in the diet forum...Everyone had different opinions about that, about mixing macros, etc, it got ripped pretty good, but I thought it was decent and I really think different things work for everyone..

**ascendant** · 05-12-2006, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by SwoleCat

Wow, people get all quiet when pictures are mentioned.

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh huh!

~SC~

figured that would happen. the reason i didn't respond when i first read it is there's just too many things to take into account, and i think it would be very misleading to people.

to start, like we both agreed before, different techniques work for different people based on their genetic disposition. next, you'd have to take into account where those people are at training-wise. if someone is near their genetic limits, just started training, is off/on cycle, etc, those are all other factors that will be affecting their growth as well.

i'd be more than happy to participate, but i myself am just getting back into working out after a 2-year layoff, and i'm typically gaining about 2-4lbs a week in lean mass. cause of how much catching up i have to do, my growth will be crazy right now no matter what i do for probably at least another couple months. then after i get back to my genetic limits, it'll be time to gear up. so in all modesty, my results can't be 100% attributed to my training techniques and i wouldn't want to mislead people into thinking so.

IMO, the best advice thus far in this thread was your post about people having to try different methods, document their results, and find what works for themselves. it's not about what "feels" more effective, it's about what actually IS more effective, and recording your weight, bf%, and other factors will show that during training methods.

***Narkissos*** · 05-12-2006, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by SwoleCat

Here's what you all do that can solve all of this! Not only in regards to how to train just legs, but any bodypart for that matter.

Everybody trains legs as they see fit, trains the other bodyparts as they wish to, eats in the manner they desire, etc. In about 3 months or so, you should all post "final" pics of your physique. So, in this 3 months don't get fat, but work on attaining a physique that you'd want to present to the people you give advice to, take advice from, etc.

I think that would be great, and it would show what all the different approaches do to different people.

~SC~

I'll do that (my contest prep started Monday.. and i'm 14 weeks out.. so in 3 months i'll be shredded lol)

Nark

**Undecided09** · 05-12-2006, 01:12 PM

Everyone is different I agree and at this point I have always used the free squat, don't intend to switch on a regular basis, I have to find out which rep range is most effective for me to be honest...

**Tbone1975** · 05-12-2006, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by SwoleCat

Wow, people get all quiet when pictures are mentioned.

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh huh!

~SC~

All I was doing was stating my opinion. That's what happened to me when I had to use the smith machine for a few months without any free weights. I lost a whole lotta sh_t. Prob mostly stabilizers. I guess i might not mind doin' that. I just don't like dieting so I may not be that lean. Yeah, I am self consious about the way I look. I wanna look better and it bugs the piss outta me. My second cycle stuff seems sh_tty too. I haven't gained much off it and might cut it short. Maybe I'll post a pic of the stuff. I have wanted to put a pick in my avi though but i think the pictures from my cell phone camera are too big. I'll have to try it. That's same with gear, I wanted to take a pic a while back but I thought pics were too big. Can ya shrink 'em? I think I said in my prof that I weighed 240. I did one day but most days I'm 234-235.

**SwoleCat** · 05-12-2006, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by ascendant

figured that would happen. the reason i didn't respond when i first read it is there's just too many things to take into account, and i think it would be very misleading to people.

U wrote a lot but I only read that far because I posted what I did for 1 reason.

The point was to get everyone who is giving advice to post a picture so we can see who we are taking advice from. That is all......

No more, no less, that's not mis-leading that's straightforward. There are however many ways to avoid posting a picture, which you will see most (if not all) people do. It wasn't to show what technique is better, it's to show that people utilize their own advice and actually set it in motion. If one has a belief and that belief works for him/her, then show us.

That's all.

~SC~

**ascendant** · 05-12-2006, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by SwoleCat

U wrote a lot but I only read that far because I posted what I did for 1 reason.

The point was to get everyone who is giving advice to post a picture so we can see who we are taking advice from. That is all......

No more, no less, that's not mis-leading that's straightforward. There are however many ways to avoid posting a picture, which you will see most (if not all) people do. It wasn't to show what technique is better, it's to show that people utilize their own advice and actually set it in motion. If one has a belief and that belief works for him/her, then show us.

That's all.

~SC~

in that case, i have mine in my avatar, so i'm there. i thought you were looking for some kind of before/after pics for specific techniques is all.

**SwoleCat** · 05-12-2006, 04:05 PM

Yeah, your pic looks great!

~SC~

**Evil Predator** · 05-12-2006, 06:28 PM

Originally Posted by SwoleCat

I myself only do leg press and smith, not free weight squats.

Never could really being so tall, I fall over frontwards even w/out the bar on my back just trying to "sit" all the way down/back.

Just doesn't work for me.

~SC~

at 6'4", I have the same problem. Im too tall, its hard to keep proper form and stay straight.. I do still freesquat always, but anything over 405, I seem to start breaking form, so i keep it around there.

**ascendant** · 05-12-2006, 06:44 PM

Originally Posted by SwoleCat

Yeah, your pic looks great!

~SC~

thanks bro, you seem to be doing damn good yourself. mine i can say is still a work in progress, but you seem to have yourself pretty well in check from the pics i've seen.

**Undecided09** · 05-12-2006, 09:59 PM

well my pics won't do justice at all, because I don't nearly have the training experience of you guys, but on a personal level, I just had my measuremetns done tonight...at 5/10/05 my thigh was 20 and 1/2 inches...on 5/12/06 it was 23 and 1/2....three inches in a year, most of the year I really had no where near the training or dieting experience I have now, so not to bad...

**SwoleCat** · 05-13-2006, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by ascendant

thanks bro, you seem to be doing damn good yourself. mine i can say is still a work in progress, but you seem to have yourself pretty well in check from the pics i've seen.

Thanks, but I'm actually rather unhappy and disappointed in how I look.

No shit, I'm serious, but whatever that's how I am.

~SC~

**Tbone1975** · 05-13-2006, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by SwoleCat

Thanks, but I'm actually rather unhappy and disappointed in how I look.

No shit, I'm serious, but whatever that's how I am.

~SC~

You look great. I wish I was that big.

**~fuelforfire~** · 05-13-2006, 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by Tbone1975

You look great. I wish I was that big.

dont we all man

**Natty99** · 05-13-2006, 08:51 PM

Made the switch back to Free Squats from smith about a month ago and have been feeling the results big time. Increased strength across the board!
Legs become much more sore though

**ascendant** · 05-14-2006, 12:56 AM

actually tried something new today for legs. i typically tend to go fairly heavy for legs as that's what tends to make my legs grow. whenever i used to do lighter weights with higher reps, i just never got much growth and would be more out of breath than feeling the muscle. well, we discussed all that before in this thread, so let me continue to explain my change in todays routine...

i started with a fairly light weight on leg press and did it for 19 reps. then upped the weight a lot and did 10, then upped it a lot for the last set and finished with about 5 reps. i did this for all my leg exercises, obviously incorporating my tyipcal heavy weights with the lighter high-rep method.

well, during my workout, i was much more winded than usual, but wasn't really feeling like i was doing anymore than usual. well, as i was heading to my car, i had my usual headache and could barely walk. as i sat down in my car, after about 30 seconds, my legs started literally surging with pain. i never felt that before from a workout, i'm assuming because i hit the legs with both the high reps and low reps in the same workout with such a wide variance in between. the pain lasted for about a good 5-10mins, then gradually subsided.

though the high reps normally didn't give me nearly as much growth as the low reps for legs, i figure mixing both in like this might be worth a shot. after how i felt today, it definitely seems as if i blasted them good. guess i'll be measuring them and seeing my results over the next few weeks...