Returns you get for your effort!!!

[Ronnie Rowland]

one more thing to add

from the dc/low volume perspective

if you gain strength, but fail to gain size over time....it has been said that the person has not eaten enough food, and thats where the problem lies....with proper food intake, size will always come

While that may be true, why is it that everyone (both male and female) I have trained or trained with have been able to gain more muscle mass doing 6 intense work sets each week as opposed to 1 intense work set a week?

Could it be that combining more volume with the extra calories and increased strength gains is what causes maximum growth? After all, I'm talking about maximum growth not just making some gains.


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[Ronnie Rowland]

a.

b.
-man, i really gotta find that article......but i will just talk from memory for now........when you do a set, the muscle fibers that are used kind of rotate around for most of the set........they are not all contracting, but kind of skipping around and in clusters.....now when you get close to failure, the type 2's start coming into play, and all of them contract together......so the majority of the set is some what useless to building muscle mass...its the end of the set when the type 2's start contracting and working together.....its damaging these muscle fibers that cause muscle growth......now by rest pausing, because of the minimal rest, for the second 2 mini sets, its all type 2's that are lifting the weight......so by rest pausing, you are kind of bypassing unneccisary work.......by rest pausing on the last 2 mini sets, you are placing the entire work load on the muscle fibers that have the greatest potential for hyper trophy.........the other muscle fibers that work during the first part of the first mini set, dont have much potential at all for hyper trophy....

so that is another reason behind all this




so even though, you cant handle as much power output, you are intensily fatigueing and breaking down the type 2's and other fast twitch fibers......the muscles that actually have abiltity to grow






edit- when i say type 2's, i think i also mean other fast twitch fibers also

I think we part compay in our beliefs regarding how the type 2 fibers are best stimulated. If I understand you correctly you are saying the type 2 fibers are not used much at all in a standard straight set and it's the rest-paused sets (mini-sets) that stimulate these fibers to grow. Correct?????

Here's what I have learned. The strongest not the weakest fibers like you are saying will come into play until the muscle reaches exhaustion. After the the strongest fibers of a particular muscle group fatigue, they begin to fire less while the weaker dormant fibers begin taking over and fire more!

A good example is how these large muscled boxers will always tire out faster than an opponent with smaller muscles because the larger fibers burn more oxygen. The concept behind Slingshot Training is to totally exhaust the strongest regions of the muscle with a key movement in order to open up the gateway to stimulate the dormant fibers located in lagging areas of a muscle group with a secondary exercise. Meaning you work the type-2 fibers in the strongest region of a muscle group with a key exercise and proceed to work the type-2 fibers of the lagging areas within that muscle group with a secondary exercise.

[IronReload04]

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[Ronnie Rowland]

our beliefs regarding how the type 2 fibers are best stimulated. If I understand you correctly you are saying the type 2 fibers are not used much at all in a standard straight set and it's the rest-paused sets (mini-sets) that stimulate these fibers to grow. Correct?????


sort of.....from this article i read a while back, which i think i am remembering correctly.....the type 2's come into play as you approach failure (failure of any set, straight or whichever)......so on the last 2 mini sets, you get directly to using the type 2's.......where other muscle fibers, which do not have much potential for growth are most active at the beginning of the set (first mini), and are kind of circulating around taking turns being used....so the rest pause is brief, and hits the type 2's really freaking hard......which is why, I believe i had to go down in dumbells when going from chest to delts in dc, as opposed to doing 1 set of barbell mil in then going to dumbells in my old program

We agree in that muscle fibers are recruited for heavy loads in order from slowest to fastest! This means that if you are lifting heavy loads and are stimulating your type-2 fibers (fast twitch), then you have already stimulated your slow twitch fibers to the maximum.

The advantage of performing additonal sets or higher reps is to increase sarcoplasmic growth (about 30% of total muscle size). How do you obtain that extra 30% with such low volume?

[Ronnie Rowland]

so think about it.....if you do 4 sets to failure, according to that article, which i am trying to find, you are taxing your type 2's 4 times


now in opposition, with dc, you are taxing them 3 times.......but less recovery time in between the sets, raises the intensity, and absolutely bombs these fibers, I think more so than straight sets with much recovery time.......and I will go back to my dumbell military press ex to back up why i have that opinion.....



so whats going to happen is, these type 2's are going to adapt to be able to handle this weight for longer periods of time (more reps), or handle more weight for the same reps.......why i think dc strength gains are directly muscle gains

When utilizing the STS, we tax the type-2 fibers a whopping 10 times for each major muscle group! After each subsequent set that follows the first work set, the type-1 fibers tire out earlier and earlier in the set and the type 2 fibers take over the load for longer periods of time. By the time we have done only 3 intense sets of an exercise, the endurance fibers are shutting down very early in the set and it's mostly the type-2 fibers lifting the weight. It would take a lot of sets using rest-pause training to mimic the type-2 fiber stimulation caused by doing multiple straight sets.

The type-2 fibers must be made to adapt to lift more weight for longer periods of time in order to grow larger. What's the basic training rule that 99% of all professional bodybuilders have used to get massive is size? Simple, they pump up the muscles with multiple straight sets because the have found by years of experience in the gym it's the most efective way to make the type-2 fibers hypertrophy and fully stimulate the type-1 fibers.

[IronReload04]

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[Ronnie Rowland]

so we are going to failure 3 times right, and you 4......do you think that the reps not close to failure contribute to sarcoplasm? I believe that going to failure 3 times is enough for sarcoplamsic growth....where you go to failure 4 times, but the part of your sets where you are not near failure; are they really contributing anything to sarcoplasmic growth



Thus, HST and DC both implement progressive loads at a fairly frequent rate. However, DC also introduces progressive fatigue and starts at a much higher fatiguing level than HST's 15s.

Bryan brings up that failure can drop your strength levels up to a week, but I feel it's in large part due to how much sarcomere disruption you experience from your workout. In other words, if you went straight into DC training after a 14-day layoff, the microtrauma from the training would be significant enough that your strength levels would plummet. Had you gone into DC training at a lighter load or say after a few weeks of moderate training, then your strength levels would only decline steadily..

Thus we can say that, for the average trainee, classic HST and DC provide about 4-6 weeks of sarcomere-responsive progressive load (I'll assume 15s do nothing for sarcomere hypertrophy as a worst-case scenario.)
Finally, the extreme stretch. IMO, this is DC's major trump card over HST. I've brought up the effects of this on the thread before; in short, this would be the equivalent of adding very short high-load negative isolation movements into your 10s, and then making sure you keep progressing through the end of your HST program. These stretches, like introducing 5RM+ negatives early into your workout, overrides the regular sets the primary factor in creating sarcomere hypertrophy for many bodyparts. And because they create such disruption and stay ahead of RBE, they also override the declining load increments of the routine. As long as you can increase the stretch week-to-week (half of DC's stretches are angle or load-based, the other half involve increasing stretching time, which isn't as efficient), this effect on the training is huge. It's also no surprise that many trainees who don't as well under DC as Dante predicts, underuse this technique. It's supremely painful, but the lengthy stretch times is necessary to activate the golgi tendon's stretch reflex.

Therefore, workout to workout, the post-failure sets creates pretty optimal sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, the progressive loaded stretching creates consistent sarcomere hypertrophy. Of the latter, although the differences in sarcomere hypertrophy disappear as you approach the end of 5s (and you could argue that HST's negatives surpass DC training in sarcomere disruption), total time under DC with hightened sarcomere hypertrophy is still proportionally longer.

In short,

1) DC >> HST in sarcoplasmic hypertrophy.
2) DC >HST in load progression increments
3) DC ~ HST in total productive cycle duration
4) DC << HST in total time of elevated protein synthesis
5) DC >> HST in initiating sarcomere hypertrophy

Thus, this is all-in-all why I argue that a DC routine would probably have much better results than a HST routine, provided you can handle it (Doggcrapp's routine isn't for the timid; if after your first workout, you don't feel like throwing up, you weren't doing his routine. ) However . . .


On the hypertrophy pecking order, I have them ranked as such:

1) DC
2) hst
3) Max-OT
4) DFHT (sp?)

For people who want a solid program for both hypertrophy and strength, I really think DC is the best one out there.

For strength-oriented people (i.e. powerlifters) who want a program tailored for them, I think Max-OT is the way to go. And it's the fastest among the lot at developing pure strength.

) The average DC trainee has more successful training history than the average HST trainee, and thus have less problems structuring a diet to it. Max-OT is a really good program, but I think the success rate (hypertrophy) with DC have been measurably higher.

Two major advantages exist with DC over traditional HST

1) His use of loaded stretches is roughly the equivalent of thowing >5RM negatives into the 10s phase, and then increasing that load by modulating stretch variables. For the body parts that the stretches cover, it becomes the primary strain stimulator and such in those parts.

2) His rep ranges and the rest-pause techniques combine for a form of density training, which is great for creating endurance-related adaptations. That in turns means the supra-protein diet DC espouses will be used as efficiently as possible through the 24-hour period after that meal. Classic HST doesn't have anything that intensive unless you include drop sets.
1) DC = high strain through loaded stretch, high metabolic stress, , weekly load progression, failure.

Okay let me comment on a couple of things as this is a lengthy post.

1) Every intense work set (even the first one) contributes to sacroplasmic growth. Also, it's not 4 times to failure with the STS but 10 times when using the 5 day split based routine. I tell everyone up front that the 5 day per week split based routine is needed to max out ones genetic potential. It's impossible to cram enough work into a 3 day per week split based routine to max out ones genetic potential. Trying to do so would cause severe over-training.


2) The four biggest problems I see with HST are as follows:

a. Too many body parts being trained in one session.

b. Training legs at the beginning of the workout which kills the CNS right from the get-go.

c Lack of volume and exercises.

d. The work sets are spread out instead of done all at once. HST is based on doing 2 sets 3 times a week as opposed to doing all 6 sets at once. This means the type-2 muscle fibers are not going to get nailed using HST like they do with the STS. To recap: After each subsequent set that follows the first work set, the type-1 fibers tire out earlier and earlier in the set and the type 2 fibers (fibers responsible for most muscle size-strength) take over the load for longer periods of time. By the time you have done only 3 intense sets of an exercise, the endurance fibers are shutting down very early in the set and it's mostly the type-2 fibers lifting the weight. Notice the HST never gets that far! The type-2 fibers must be made to adapt to lift more weight for longer periods of time in order to grow larger. This is why training each bodypart only once a week will produce the most size gains with the least amount of effort.

3) Extreme stretching is only a theory. There's no possible way it can give you the results of doing actual repetitions with weights. Isolation exercises are much better for devleoping mass than any form of stretching. Can you imagine Arnold getting such a massive chest doing extreme stretching as opposed to flat flyes??? Absolutey not!!! With a lot of money on the line in endorsements, do you honestly think professional bodybuilders would waste their time doing worthless isolation exercises or additional sets using compound movements over extreme stretching if they weren't more effective?

Isolation exercises and most compound movements can be considered stretch position exercises and should be utilized for each body part when applicable to assure the highest release of Mechano Growth Factors, Prostaglandins, and Growth Hormone /I-GF1. These exercises result in a "controlled stretch" not "extreme stretch" of the target muscle at the end of the negative phase of each repetition when performed properly. A full stretch and contraction keeps the resistance on the "muscle bellies" and the end result will be more "muscle growth".

Extreme stretching has been known to damage the anterior capsule of the shoulder and the rotator cuffs because the shoulder wasn’t designed to stay in that position for long periods of time. I think there's a good reason extreme stretching got the reputation of being the devil.

[Ronnie Rowland]

just because these guys have steller genetics in terms of reation to drugs, and for muscle mass, doesnt mean they have a clue

ie paul dillet
flex wheeler


at any rate, the way you describe type 2's and the fourth set, sounds like a huge plus for volume techiniques

There's a lot of good to be said about volume training done right. Look at what it has done for elite bodybuilders. It's the obsessive-compulsive high volume trainers that have given it a bad name and the same goes for the obsessive-compulsive low volume trainers. Low volume has it's place in bodybuilding and that place is allowing one to get stronger so they can take those added strength gains and go do more volume to blast the type-2 fibers!!!!!!!!!!!

I have learned that balance is so important in both bodybuilding and power-lifting. Periodization is needed to become progressively stronger and bigger as a power-lifter and the same rule applies to bodybuilding. The STS was designed on those very principles.

[Ronnie Rowland]

Max-OT templates are wacky because some templates have a lot of upper-torso overlap, and other templates don't. Dude didn't think through his workout plan well enough. Week to week, your results seem to bop and weave.

Because HIT is about demonstrating your size gains through strength -- if you gained a lot of real, force-produced mass -- your strength levels will take off, even if the coupling of your system has been mitigated. There's of course significant flaws with HIT, and by no means am I saying that it should be used primarily as a strength-training system, but generally if your mass gains are big, your strength gains will be big. The general complaint among HIT trainees is that they enjoy these strength gains but have little size gains to show. But the brilliance of Dante's program is how its additional strategies creates safeguard mechanisms whereby a Brawn-ish HIT program can mantain HST-validity, even if the HIT aspect of it begins to collapse.

1) I agree with you about the MAX-OT templates not being optimal due to over-lapping of other body parts.

2) I don't understand why you believe one can gain strength on HIT and not gain size, but on DC training you say size gains are caused by strength increases. It makes no sense to me?????

You know what I think? I think the HIT boys who gain stength but no size is because of 2 reasons. 1) They simply do not eat enough calories. 2) They are not using enough volume to blast those type-2 fibers we both keep talking about. HIT can mean different things to various people. And many would argue DC is HIT. I no longer refer to DC as being under the HIT umbrella out of respect for Dante, but behind the scenes many still refer to it as HIT because it's low volume and utlizes rest-pause.

Think about this for a moment-Mike Mentzer is well known for HIT. When Mentzer first began promoting his training methods he used even higher volume than DC training and he trained each muscle group with 5 sets twice a week. His volume was comparable to the STS. He went off the deep end in his latter years trying to sell books filled with voodoo bodybuilding. I am of the opinion that Mike had reached his peak, got lazy and needed to find something appealing to sell to the public. However, the main theme I got from Mentzer when he was actually making progress was to use 3-5 sets twice per week to absolute failure. This is how Mentzer really got so big! Not by doing 2 sets a week like many seem to believe.

[Ronnie Rowland]

One more thing I'd like for you to think about and that is the need to use extreme stretching for enhancing muscle recovery. Since a low volume rest-pause is not going to cause over-training of the actual muscle tissue itself, why all the stretching to improve recovery? This is one thing I keep hearing over and over that makes absolutely no sense. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this!

[IronReload04]

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[Ronnie Rowland]

I wont be able to get back to you until after thanksgiving.....I got exams from now until then.....i will still probably be posting on steroid .com, and mabye even in workout section, but just letting you know because of exams, i wont be able to be thinking hard about this stuff until after thanksgiving when exams are over....

just wanted to let you know, then we can pick back up after the holiday

I understand. In the mean time, I will be re-loading my Slingshot...LOL..Have a nice holiday!

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[naturalsux]

One more thing I'd like for you to think about and that is the need to use extreme stretching for enhancing muscle recovery. Since a low volume rest-pause is not going to cause over-training of the actual muscle tissue itself, why all the stretching to improve recovery? This is one thing I keep hearing over and over that makes absolutely no sense. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this!

so do you believe in extreme stretching?

i ve found 8-14 sets to be the best for me.

this is an excellent thread!

[Machdiesel]

Hey slingshot, i think i read in one of your threads your "workout routine" is an advanced. more up to date, extensive extension of the iron man HIT, is this correct??

[Machdiesel]

if so could u put up a link that lays out the slingshot method, ive had great succes with the iron man and would love to change it up

[Ronnie Rowland]

so do you believe in extreme stretching?

i ve found 8-14 sets to be the best for me.

this is an excellent thread!

I do not recommend "extreme" stetching. Here's a good link for you to read. Tenmoney sums it up nicely. Stretching muscle fascia = more muscle size/growth

[Ronnie Rowland]

Hey slingshot, i think i read in one of your threads your "workout routine" is an advanced. more up to date, extensive extension of the iron man HIT, is this correct??

The 3 day per week Slinghot Training System is indeed a more up to date version of the Ironman "HIT." The original Ironman "HIT" I designed did not have rest-pause nor did the reps go lower than 4. Everything else was the same. Ironman (my old room mate) took my original version, added those things to it and then posted it on the net.

The 3 day per week STS works much better than the 3 day per week Ironman "HIT."

Here's a post from 41 year old driftonce over at bodybuilding.com who uses the 3 day per week STS. "The 3 day per week split I have in the Slingshot Training thread is merely for beginners (First 3 months of training). In the future I will post the 3 day per week STS were each muscle is trained twice every 8 days with 2 exercises per boypart. It works even better than the Ironman HIT I designed back in the 80's..

The STS has really brought out a lot of my potential. I feel really strong right now
My best lifts are
squat 610
bench 550
deadlift 650.
Right now I am doing box squats with 405 on to a 12 inch box with a full 1-2 second pause, no knee wraps, no belt. And I am enjoying the progress! I am shooting for a 700 deadlift in the next few months. Here's his picture. I hope he doesn't plan on shooting me with that gun in the background if he fails to make the 700 lb dead-lift.

[Ronnie Rowland]

if so could u put up a link that lays out the slingshot method, ive had great succes with the iron man and would love to change it up

Sure thing. I have revised the STS for easier understanding. It begins on page 138 in the link provided below. The link simply takes you to the Slingshot Training thread located at the top of this workout section.

The revision starts on page 138. So, skip the first 137 pages! I strongly suggest you begin reading at page 138 so you can get a better understanding of what the STS is all about. I have even posted some before and after pics of myself on page 139 to show how this form of training has helped me. I am a very hard-gainer!

The 3 day per week STS is located on page 146 in the link provided below. Let me know if you have any further questions. You will see better results with the 3 day per week STS!

The Slingshot Training System