Why NOT to take TEST in every cycle

[Rickson]

I haven't read this entire thread so some of this may have already been covered. I am always glad to hear other points of view and see people branching out. I will give my personal reasons why I think test based cycles give the best results in comparison to risk.

First, I have been doing AAS for sixteen years (man I am old). The cycles you are presenting are not new as I am sure you are aware. About seven years ago everyone was trying to find the right fangowango cycle and bridge. The truth is they just don't work. I spent almost two years experimenting with dbol only, anavar only, prop only, and every combination under the sun. Suppression was extreme to complete in almost every cycle and I had blood work done by Dr. Scruggs at New Hope Med throughout each trial. You can gain but recovery is going to take almost as long and gains overall will be less.

In terms of test gains being hard to keep most of the data is from a time before HCG , Clomid, and other SERMS or Anti-E's were readily available. Many old time BB's hate test because of the blow up effect and the shrinking when coming off (We all hated it). Most of these people no very little about Recovery techniques and the drugs readily available today. Most people can recover in four-six weeks from a test base cycle now and keep the large majority of there gains. The benefits of test have been well documented and easily available to anyone that goes on any medical research site.

I think everyone should try new techniques and find what works best for you but the older you get the more test is going to have to be a staple of your AAS cycling.

[KINGKONG]

I haven't read this entire thread so some of this may have already been covered. I am always glad to hear other points of view and see people branching out. I will give my personal reasons why I think test based cycles give the best results in comparison to risk.

First, I have been doing AAS for sixteen years (man I am old). The cycles you are presenting are not new as I am sure you are aware. About seven years ago everyone was trying to find the right fangowango cycle and bridge. The truth is they just don't work. I spent almost two years experimenting with dbol only, anavar only, prop only, and every combination under the sun. Suppression was extreme to complete in almost every cycle and I had blood work done by Dr. Scruggs at New Hope Med throughout each trial. You can gain but recovery is going to take almost as long and gains overall will be less.

In terms of test gains being hard to keep most of the data is from a time before HCG , Clomid, and other SERMS or Anti-E's were readily available. Many old time BB's hate test because of the blow up effect and the shrinking when coming off (We all hated it). Most of these people no very little about Recovery techniques and the drugs readily available today. Most people can recover in four-six weeks from a test base cycle now and keep the large majority of there gains. The benefits of test have been well documented and easily available to anyone that goes on any medical research site.

I think everyone should try new techniques and find what works best for you but the older you get the more test is going to have to be a staple of your AAS cycling.

Ross how can you argue with a guy who has tried it all and has used AAS for 16 years???Like I said I love the different ideas and your attitude but all these cycles that you could hook up have been tried by so many and this is where we are at..A test base cycle..Plus the stuff makes me feel great..

[EatRite]

so your plan is to continue to take the same exact doses cycle after cycle? you arent going to bump these doses up???


also, you are not 210 lbs if you are 5 ft 10in... in the pic in my avatar i'm 208-210lbs and i'm just under 5ft 10 in... and theres no way that you are that weight at the same height...


ps... post leg pics...

[locutus]

I haven't read this entire thread so some of this may have already been covered. I am always glad to hear other points of view and see people branching out. I will give my personal reasons why I think test based cycles give the best results in comparison to risk.

First, I have been doing AAS for sixteen years (man I am old). The cycles you are presenting are not new as I am sure you are aware. About seven years ago everyone was trying to find the right fangowango cycle and bridge. The truth is they just don't work. I spent almost two years experimenting with dbol only, anavar only, prop only, and every combination under the sun. Suppression was extreme to complete in almost every cycle and I had blood work done by Dr. Scruggs at New Hope Med throughout each trial. You can gain but recovery is going to take almost as long and gains overall will be less.

In terms of test gains being hard to keep most of the data is from a time before HCG , Clomid, and other SERMS or Anti-E's were readily available. Many old time BB's hate test because of the blow up effect and the shrinking when coming off (We all hated it). Most of these people no very little about Recovery techniques and the drugs readily available today. Most people can recover in four-six weeks from a test base cycle now and keep the large majority of there gains. The benefits of test have been well documented and easily available to anyone that goes on any medical research site.

I think everyone should try new techniques and find what works best for you but the older you get the more test is going to have to be a staple of your AAS cycling.

Wow, that about says it all huh? Thanks Rick

[dazbo]

Im sorry but I am 23, and not trying to be big headed or full of myself because there really are a lot of things I hate about my body that people cant understand why I moan about it. But, even though I dont look anywhere near my goals just yet, I am pretty sure I look bigger than mindofross?!!!

Only pic I have is t one in my avatar and a couple of my 6-pack on my phone. But, I I did a cycle (My very FIRST cycle) of sus @250mg/wk and deca @200mg/wk and Dbol first 4 weeks (I know now that this was terrible cycle). I started off at 190lbs @ 5'10" and after that cycle, I am STILL 190lbs. Now this cycle did nothing for me, good pumps - yes, but no weight increase and even after proper clomid and nolva PCT I had a big crash in libido.

So, mindofross is supposedly 20lbs heavier than me at the same height and his BF is supposedly 6% whereas mine is more like 11-12%.

Who looks bigger - me or mindofross???? (God I hope you guys say me!!)

ALso, in a post he gave some research in - his very first one I beleive, near the end of talking about a dbol only cycle, it stated that the longer 10wks @ a lower dose, was better than the shorter (6wk cycle) @a higher dose. Isn't mindofross trying to prove that short cycles work ???

Let me know your oppinions guys - cheers.

P.S. I started to think maybe he was right over first couple of pages and it got me thinking I might actually try it! But now I dont think so.

[TRICK]

I completely apologize if I came off like a know-it-all. I am just very eager to share some of my experiences with people on the board--especially when I see so many posts about lost sex drive or gyno/hairloss. You guys know for yourselves if you have Gyno, or erection problems, or hairloss. I know, and anyone who has seen my pictures knows, that I am completely healthy. I only want everyone to be able to enjoy this GREAT lifestyle--but to do it in a way that is safe and responsible.

I am sorry if I was rude, or offended anyone in anyway, in my relentless persuit of knowledge.

You guys are cool as shit.

only one word incaps, i don't beleive it!
i must say this has been one very interesting read. i couldn't get home from work fast enough to see where this thing went. i left last night at 2 a.m. on page 4, came back to page 9 with 2 guys suspended, name calling, apologies, even einstien chimed in for Christ's sake! incredible! his immaturity showed in how he originally presented his argument, ALWAYS SCREAMING AND YELLING AND USING A BUNCH OF THESE!!!!!!!!! if nothing else hopefully he learned that while in his head his way may be better, you also have to have tact when presenting an opposing view. calling people crack heads certainly did nothing to warrant an objective ear from this board.

[Property of Steroid.com]

ALSO....people keep saying "TREN IS MORE SUPRESSIVE THAN TEST"...well NOT if it is used for ONLY 2 weeek periods!!

Wrong. Totally wrong. First of all, no studies exist examining HPTA shutdown from tren , but if we look at a single shot of another 19-nor steroid and progestin (Nandrolone ), we can see that a single 100mg shot of it with either the Phenylprop or Decanoate ester will shut you down for a long time and you will take around a month to recover baseline test levels.(1)
This is because of the highly suppressive nature of progestins, right? Still with me Ross?

Deca is only 1/3rd as strong of a progestin as trenbolone is(2). So if a single 100mg shot of Nandrolone (even with a sort ester) shuts you down for around a month...how long will a single 100mg shot of tren shut you down for? Right... a long time....

How about testosterone ?

Well, if you shoot 100mgs of test/week, it will take about 5-6 weeks to shut the HPTA, and 250-500mgs will shut you down by week 2 (3).

So which is more suppressive, Ross? Test or Tren?

*Reference:

1. Pharmacokinetics and Pharmacodynamics of Nandrolone Esters in Oil Vehicle: Effects of Ester, Injection Site and Injection Volume1
Charles F. Minto, Christopher Howe, Susan Wishart, Ann J. Conway and David J. Handelsman

2.Cancer Res 1978 Nov; 38(11 Pt 2):4186-98

3.J Investig Med. 1997 Oct;45(8):441-7

[Property of Steroid.com]

Why have I lost respect because I offer an alternative viewpoint? I am not saying MY way is the ONLY way--just ANOTHER way.

But...as I pointed out in my last post ...you are wrong about the suppressive nature of tren ...actually, as I pointed out in my last post, you are 100% wrong about that point, and worse yet, the way in which you are wrong indicates that you haven't done any real research.

You are wrong about alot of your viewpoints (I chose to show how/why you are wrong about the tren-thing, because I had the references on hand...I could have just as easily picked apart almost any of the points you have made)

...and you aren't posting references and/or studies to back yourself up....

I really think you need to do some real research if you are going to be so outspoken. For example, I'm known for being outspoken, and it got me banned at one board, and removed as a mod here (*Until the 3 Stooges were banned here)... but you know what? I'm right. I do my research and I'm right. Anyone can fault my character, call me a prick, a hothead, etc...but I'm right, I always have evidence to support myself (via medical journals, textbooks, etc..)and people listen to me because of that.

You are outspoken too...but you're wrong.

[Cry0smate]

Yes I like peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. Every once in a while I'll even have a potato chip or two.

[TheMindOfRoss]

AS OF TODAY GYM MEASUREMENTS- 204 lbs, 6% BF.

[TheMindOfRoss]

i am sssexxy

[KINGKONG]

i am sssexxy

Why don't you reply to hooker's posts..They proved you completly wrong..
You have along way to go you cocky kid..I can't hate you because you remind me of me when I was that age, very experimental and always right

[TheMindOfRoss]

Wrong. Totally wrong. First of all, no studies exist examining HPTA shutdown from tren , but if we look at a single shot of another 19-nor steroid and progestin (Nandrolone ), we can see that a single 100mg shot of it with either the Phenylprop or Decanoate ester will shut you down for a long time and you will take around a month to recover baseline test levels.(1)
This is because of the highly suppressive nature of progestins, right? Still with me Ross?

Deca is only 1/3rd as strong of a progestin as trenbolone is(2). So if a single 100mg shot of Nandrolone (even with a sort ester) shuts you down for around a month...how long will a single 100mg shot of tren shut you down for? Right... a long time....

How about testosterone ?

Well, if you shoot 100mgs of test/week, it will take about 5-6 weeks to shut the HPTA, and 250-500mgs will shut you down by week 2 (3).

So which is more suppressive, Ross? Test or Tren?

*Reference:

1. Pharmacokinetics and Pharmacodynamics of Nandrolone Esters in Oil Vehicle: Effects of Ester, Injection Site and Injection Volume1
Charles F. Minto, Christopher Howe, Susan Wishart, Ann J. Conway and David J. Handelsman

2.Cancer Res 1978 Nov; 38(11 Pt 2):4186-98

3.J Investig Med. 1997 Oct;45(8):441-7

TREN is more supressive than TEST. I INDICATED that 2 weeks use of TRENBOLONE would be less SUPRESSIVE to the HPTA than 12 WEEKS OF TESTOSTERONE! AND THAT IS FACT!

You seem to be just ATTEMPTING to sabotage me...I don't quite understand.

I have never stated anything conflicting with the information your presented.

AND--LOOK AT MY POSTS ABOUT BILL ROBERTS....check out those threads I POSTED.

[Property of Steroid.com]

TREN is more supressive than TEST. I INDICATED that 2 weeks use of TRENBOLONE would be less SUPRESSIVE to the HPTA than 12 WEEKS OF TESTOSTERONE ! AND THAT IS FACT!

Wrong. 1 shot of 100mgs of Tren will shut you down completely. It would take 5-6shots of 100mgs of Test to shut you down completely.

Therefore Tren is more suppressive.

1 shot of tren will shut you down 100%. What is more suppressive than that?

If you use 100mgs of each for 2 weeks in a row, the Tren will shut you down totally (100%) and the test won't.

Therefore, tren is more suppressive.

As for comparing 2 weeks of tren to 12 weeks of test...

Aren't we going to compare apples to apples here and compare equal duiration with equal duration.

How about this, using your "logic":

1,000 weeks of Anavar will shut you down worse than 2 weeks of Test. Therefore test is less suppressive than anavar!

[TRICK]

How about this, using your "logic":

1,000 weeks of Anavar will shut you down worse than 2 weeks of Test. Therefore test is less suppressive than anavar!

CLASSIC!

[TheMindOfRoss]

Wrong. 1 shot of 100mgs of Tren will shut you down completely. It would take 5-6shots of 100mgs of Test to shut you down completely.

Therefore Tren is more suppressive.

1 shot of tren will shut you down 100%. What is more suppressive than that?

Aren't we going to compare apples to apples here and compare equal duiration with equal duration.

How about this, using your "logic":

1,000 weeks of Anavar will shut you down worse than 2 weeks of Test. Therefore test is less suppressive than anavar!

NOT TRUE...a long-ester LIKE ENANTHATE wont shut you down for 5 weeks...HOWEVER, test suspension or even PROP will have you shutdown in LESS than 2 weeks, PROMISED--this is because TESTOSTERONE has a unique effect on the HPTA, triggering a negative feedback loop almost immediately, as the body is very familiar with its primary sex hormone.

[TheMindOfRoss]

NOT TRUE...a long-ester LIKE ENANTHATE wont shut you down for 5 weeks...HOWEVER, test suspension or even PROP will have you shutdown in LESS than 2 weeks, PROMISED--this is because TESTOSTERONE has a unique effect on the HPTA, triggering a negative feedback loop almost immediately, as the body is very familiar with its primary sex hormone.

FURTHEMORE, are you talking about TESTICULAR shutdown, or PITUITARY shutdown? If you wanna get scientific, lets go...

[TheMindOfRoss]

Do you know what PITUITARY supression is?

[longhorn814]

FURTHEMORE, are you talking about TESTICULAR shutdown, or PITUITARY shutdown? If you wanna get scientific, lets go...

you want to get scientific with hooker, yet you have yet to throw out one hard shred of evidence or fact to back up any of your claims. I'd be careful what you ask for

[wolfyEVH]

hey ross.....i like how you keep avoiding to post pics of your legs.........you have abs, you have low bodyfat (i doubt 6%) but you have no size........you really don't look as great as you say you are.......leg pics bro......you embarassed of them??? if someone wanted to look like you, they can easily do that with no drugs.......as many cycles as you say you've done, i'm not impressed at all........

and legs bro.........lets see the wheels.......

[anaBROLIC]

we prolly should see the wheels.. and when you and hooker keep exchanging info please post where you are learning this stuff from. it would be more credible.

[TheMindOfRoss]

hey ross.....i like how you keep avoiding to post pics of your legs.........you have abs, you have low bodyfat (i doubt 6%) but you have no size........you really don't look as great as you say you are.......leg pics bro......you embarassed of them??? if someone wanted to look like you, they can easily do that with no drugs.......as many cycles as you say you've done, i'm not impressed at all........

and legs bro.........lets see the wheels.......

Listen man...at 204lbs, 6%BF, 5'10....I FEEL GREAT! I am 21! I get ANY girl I want. i am NOT a competetive bodybuilder and will never be one. (SEE MY NEW THREAD about GOALS)

As for legs and back..HOW AM I GONNA TAKE A PICTURE OF MY OWN BACK AND LEGS? they will be up..for now, show some respect bro. WHAT does a man have to do around here?

[wolfyEVH]

Listen man...at 204lbs, 6%BF, 5'10....I FEEL GREAT! I am 21! I get ANY girl I want. i am NOT a competetive bodybuilder and will never be one. (SEE MY NEW THREAD about GOALS)

As for legs and back..HOW AM I GONNA TAKE A PICTURE OF MY OWN BACK AND LEGS? they will be up..for now, show some respect bro. WHAT does a man have to do around here?

looks to me like the pic a few posts up was taken by someone else.....thats no excuse bro.......not 1 pic of legs, and 1 bad pic of back.......you must not be putting up certain bodyparts for a reason.......

you get ANY girl you want huh??? why the hell do I care bro??? even if you did, which i know you don't, they'd leave you after the first date.....

show some respect??? yeah, because you're showing everyone else here equal respect right???? just keep diggin that hole you are in.......

[dive_kid]

WHAT does a man have to do around here?

what a man needs to do around here is show some respect, and quit forcefeeding your opinion. you are allowed to express your self but no body here wants it shoved at them. you have said your piece, so let it go.
funny thing, I have been a member here almost a year. I have never seen as many problems since you showed up.


MELLWO OUT MAN!

[TheMindOfRoss]

what a man needs to do around here is show some respect, and quit forcefeeding your opinion. you are allowed to express your self but no body here wants it shoved at them. you have said your piece, so let it go.
funny thing, I have been a member here almost a year. I have never seen as many problems since you showed up.


MELLWO OUT MAN!

I am the only person representing these views. They are under attack--I must DEFEND them. I am sorry, I am simply backing up my OPINIONS. NOTHING on here is FACT. I have NOT DISRESPECTED ONE PERSON! FIND ONE EXAMPLE, and I will leave this board and never return...(NOW thats an offer huh!)

[EatRite]

you stand and take a pic in the mirror... for a "smart guy" like you it isnt that complicated...

your look could EASILY BE ATTAINED NATURALLY IN 7 YEARS... you dont get any credit from me for your "look"... your look is the look of a model... that look can easily be attained naturally...

WHY NOT LEG PICS!!!

you have yet to supply one actual source such as hooker... dont try to argue with him, he's very intelligent... you're going to lose...

[diezell]

haha i love this thread!!!

[TheMindOfRoss]

you stand and take a pic in the mirror... for a "smart guy" like you it isnt that complicated...

your look could EASILY BE ATTAINED NATURALLY IN 7 YEARS... you dont get any credit from me for your "look"... your look is the look of a model... that look can easily be attained naturally...

WHY NOT LEG PICS!!!

you have yet to supply one actual source such as hooker... dont try to argue with him, he's very intelligent... you're going to lose...

7 years....I started training at 17, I am 21 now....do the math...give me some credit...

[TheMindOfRoss]

Ill post Legs and back TOMORROW when i have a PUMP.....GOTTA look my BEST around here....lol

[BlInDsIdE]

why did u post pics of ur face, r we supposed to think ur hott or what....

[dive_kid]

Do you know what PITUITARY supression is?

I consider this to be a condasending (SP?) remark. especially to one of the most respected members/mods here.

[anaBROLIC]

i will give credit, for 21 thats an awesome size and build. i would say tho that your attitude (cockiness,personality) kills it and is not going to get much respect from many people here or anywhere.

[dive_kid]

do I need to go through 10 pages to find more?

[EatRite]

7 years....I started training at 17, I am 21 now....do the math...give me some credit...

POST #58

I am about to be 22 years old and I have graduated from Rutgers University with a BA in Physics. I am an independent scientist, making a relentless effort to dicover THE MOST EFFECTIVE ways to use these REMARKABLE compounds. You can choose to listen to my advices, and BENEFIT GREATLY, or you can write me off as a lunatic. Either way, I post here not because I HAVE to, but because I WANT TO. I want to help people reach their goals as I have reached mine....

I have been training since I am 15 years old, have always been heavily involved in athletics.

I have always been an ectomorph with a relatively thin bone structure. I was always able to be ripped, but AQUIRING MUSCLE MASS was difficult. I trained naturally until I was about 20 years old, peaking out at MY FRAME at 180lbs, about 6%BF.

In the almost 2 years of steroid experience I have, I have gained more than 40 PERMANENT lbs, with only increasing bodyfat minimally. I am now 210(as of TONIGHT) around 6-7% BF. I have tried and have EXPERIMENTED with others all different types of dosing and cycling methods. I have been left with ONLY WHAT WORKS BEST.

Like I said, I am only here to help.

THIRD PAGE

This was my POST on the OTHER thread:

"When all of my friends were in high school doing juice at 16-17 years old, I was locked up. Yes, I was in several juvenile facilities. HOWEVER, it forced me to do ONE THING--STAY NATURAL. I worked out with a determination that even 1000mgs of TEST SUSPENSION couldn't give you.

When I got out, all of my friends were MONSTERS--they had BAAAD ACNE, some of them had gyno, but they were HUGE for 17 year olds. They were completely ASYMETRIC as well, only working some muscle groups while neglecting others. They looked strange--BUT I WANTED 20 inch arms TOO!

Well, I did NOT succumb to the PRESSURE! I continued training naturally for 4 more years, and I passed them quickly by the 2nd year. While they were deflating, having ERECTION PROBLEMS, my natural test levels were SOARING SKY HIGH at 19-20 years old, and I was making TREMENDOUS gains. I actually gained 20lbs the year I turned 20. i was symmetrical, balanced, and HEALTHY. I looked great.

NOW SHUT UP... you are lying...

[TheMindOfRoss]

i will give credit, for 21 thats an awesome size and build. i would say tho that your attitude (cockiness,personality) kills it and is not going to get much respect from many people here or anywhere.

Aright listen. My personality is being misinterpreted. On any other thread, we wouldbe cool...we would not be arguing...its because of what im saying and HOW I AM SAYING it that is pissing people off...and I am sorry if anyone was offended, but i think people are sensitive. I SHOULD BE OFFENDED..i am getting gang raped on two threads at once....so easy guys..i was only stating some opinions..

[EatRite]

dont try to make yourself sound further right by exaggerating the gains you have made through decreasing the time that you have been "training" for... if you dont even know when you started training, and mix that up, then how are we supposed to trust you undocumented "research"???

[TheMindOfRoss]

POST #58




THIRD PAGE





NOW SHUT UP... you are lying...

are you a kID?? what am i LYING ABOUT? I said i STARTED training at 15..WHO KNOWS HOW TO REALLY TRAIN at 15!?? AT 17 i started EATING....back off man...this is getting ridiculous..are you upset cause I am PRETTIER and SEXIER THAN YOU?? LOL! i dont wanna go here man...easy..

[EatRite]

are you a kID?? what am i LYING ABOUT? I said i STARTED training at 15..WHO KNOWS HOW TO REALLY TRAIN at 15!?? AT 17 i started EATING....back off man...this is getting ridiculous..are you upset cause I am PRETTIER and SEXIER THAN YOU?? LOL! i dont wanna go here man...easy..

thats not what you said... you said u started training at 17... not eating....


and i'm almost 21... and i've been training for fewer years than you and i'm the same "weight"...

[BlInDsIdE]

are you a kID?? what am i LYING ABOUT? I said i STARTED training at 15..WHO KNOWS HOW TO REALLY TRAIN at 15!?? AT 17 i started EATING....back off man...this is getting ridiculous..are you upset cause I am PRETTIER and SEXIER THAN YOU?? LOL! i dont wanna go here man...easy..

holy sh!t eatrite he just totally called u out

[wolfyEVH]

POST #58




THIRD PAGE





NOW SHUT UP... you are lying...

see ross......you disrespected ALL of us by lying to us..........

and you said you'd leave the board when we gave you an example....bye bye!!