Anavar is NOT a mild compound where HPTA suppression/shutdown is concerned!!

[lovbyts]

Great post, now we have some science and data to point to when telling the kids/newbies why it's a bad idea to run Var or anything without test.

[Atomini]

Holy Crap Atomini! Youve done it again. And this is the perfect thread for everyone who thinks anavar is "mild". I ran it and loved it, but it was anything but mild. I suffered horrible insomnia, night sweats, cotton mouth, cramps, spasms, but the worse of it was the sleeplessness. I try to tell everyone that it isnt as mild as it is made out to be. In my case, it was like tren sides(from what Ive heard) and was brutal until about a week after I finished up. Everything got back to normal(sleep wise). But my lipids and liver enzymes took a big hit. Great post, and I am still looking for that one the I KNOW you have been putting together for masteron !

On a side question, when you delve into nandrolone, what is going to be your dosing protocol? TRT+high nandrolone, 50/50, high test/low nandrolone? Just curious to what you are going to do because I have mine on standby and am pondering what I am going to do about mine. I am thinking a Test:NanDec ratio of about 600:400, but still unsure. Dont want the nasty sides of the NanDec, thats why I was thinking about running the test a bit higher. Sorry to venture off of this great topic. Great work!

When it comes to Nandrolone , I would just advise the same idea of TRT Testosterone with higher Nandrolone. Typical ratio of something like 100:400. We all know that 19-nor side effects are greatly pronounced with an increase of Estrogen from aromatizable anabolic steroids . So unless you plan on running an AI with your higher Testosterone dose, i'd just run it at TRT amounts.

Whoa I didnt realize the sides were this bad especially the sleeplessness part. Makes me reconsider doing a trt dose of test and high anavar dose. Maybe i should just do normal 500mg test and var at the end. If sides get too bad then i can drop var and finish as test only cycle.

The sides that warmouth pointed out I don't think are experienced by MOST people. I'm running 100mg daily of Anavar right now and am not experiencing any cramps, spasms, cotton mouth, sleeplessness or appetite suppression. But we all know individuals respond differently to everything between one another, and this is probably one of those cases.

[fit2bOld]

Great info Atomini, thanks for putting in the time to share it.

[human project]

I've been meaning to share this information with you all for a couple weeks now, but i've been pretty busy with the holidays and what not.

Anyhow, my personal research as well as my university studies have lead me to some interesting information on Anavar and its effects on HPTA suppression, and the real hard truth behind it. Anavar has always been touted as a very 'mild' compound. For the most part, it is. But too many people have for decades been using the world 'mild' to describe every effect and aspect of this compound. Anavar is NOT 'mild' in the realm of HPTA function, nor is it 'mild' in terms of its anabolic effects (it is actually quite the powerful anabolic steroid , perhaps more so than Anadrol in fact), however that's a story for another day. The focus of my quick post here is Anavar's effects on the HPTA since that is one of the most expounded descriptions of one of the areas Anavar is frequently said to be 'mild' in. Well, i'm here to tell you all that this is absolutely not the case. Anavar is just as suppressive as any anabolic steroid out there in existance.

In my program, shortly before the Christmas break, we actually covered Anavar!!! I was extremely excited (and surprised) to see that here in a pre-med university program, we're actually covering (albeit very briefly) an anabolic steroid and its effects on the endocrine system. As anyone familiar with life-sciences programs and med school programs knows, there is no such thing as an 'anabolic steroid' course or class. So I was pretty ecstatic, even though this was very brief. We covered some of its actions in muscle tissue and other tissues, we covered its medical applications and its beneficial results in patients suffering from trauma and its use as an osteoperosis medication. A guest speaker covered most of this with us, who is a former proffessor and is a current MD involved in research in the Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism. After everything was over, I had a chance to speak to him and ask him to share/exchange information concerning Anavar and such. Of course the guy is very busy and had only a half hour to spare with me, which I thought was very generous of him. So we discussed a whole ton of AAS-related topics, of which 30 minutes was just not enough time, and man was I blown away. But where Anavar is concerned, he told me quite a few eye-opening details, and provided me with a bunch of clinical studies to investigate for my own personal amusement.

It seems as though Anavar is commonly labelled by all of the gym bros for decades as 'mildly' suppressive to the HPTA, but there is only a sliver of truth to this. This seems to only be the case with the absolute lowest of medical prescription doses (such as 5mg daily administered to children). Bodybuilding doses, which is what we are all concerned with here, is a whole different ball game and in studies demonstrate very strong suppression of endogenous Testosterone production. The most prominent study I saw was one involving 6 young male test subjects that were administered Anavar had shown that after only 5 days of Anavar administration (at only 15mg/day), the Testosterone levels ofthese 6 subjects dropped DRASTICALLY by day 5 from 449ng/dl to 282ng/dl – a 63% reduction of Testosterone in 5 days(1) That is a massive drop after such a small period of time at a dose that isn't even considered a 'bodybuilding' dose. If this is what Anavar does at 15mg daily after 5 days of use, ask yourself what bodybuilding doses (30mg MINIMUM daily of Anavar) for weeks will end up doing?

This is a graph from the study conducted. It demonstrates total androgen concentration showing total serum Testosterone (lined areas) and Oxandrolone (black areas) concentrations in five young men on days 0, 3, and 5, Testosterone decreased significantly from days 0 and 3 to day 5 (P < 0.05).

- The first point i'm making of this post is to show all of you newcomers and youngsters here who are under the age of 24 that Anavar is NOT a safe or 'mild' choice to engage in. It very well has the potential for the same amount of shutdown as a Testosterone cycle as far as I am concerned. So if you think that attempting an Anavar-only cycle for your first cycle is going to save you from any potential permanent HPTA problems later on in life, think again!

- The second point i'm making here is to show that Anavar-only cycles are destructive to the body without the inclusion of some form of Testosterone. Anavar necessitates the use of Testosterone in at least a TRT dose in order to maintain normal physiological function in the presence of a suppressed/shutdown HPTA as a result of Anavar use. Will you die if you do an Anavar-only cycle? No. But it's not optimal or healthy for the body, and can cause issues (both noticeable and un-noticeable) when your endogenous production of Testosterone bottoms out.

There exists no 'perfect anabolic steroid', but Anavar is perhaps the anabolic steroid that has come the closest to the 'perfect steroid' - but the point here it that is NOT 'perfect' by any means and still possesses its flaws.

REFERENCES:
1. Short-Term Oxandrolone Administration Stimulates Net Muscle Protein Synthesis in Young Men. Melinda Sheffield-Moore, Randall J. Urban, Steven E. Wolf, J. Jiang, Don H. Catlin, David N. Herndon, Robert R. Wolfe and Arny A. Ferrando. Sheffield-Moore et al. Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism. August 1, 1999; 84 (8): 2705

Subscribed....

[Turkish Juicer]

It's Primobolan that is so utterly weak that its practically useless for anyone.

Not at all true.

Good post in general though.

[warmouth]

Whoa I didnt realize the sides were this bad especially the sleeplessness part. Makes me reconsider doing a trt dose of test and high anavar dose. Maybe i should just do normal 500mg test and var at the end. If sides get too bad then i can drop var and finish as test only cycle.

Everyone is different. For me, it was rough.

[GirlyGymRat]

Great info. I plan to run anavar and clen later this year. But I had no intention of running test. Should I reconsider???

[human project]

I've been meaning to share this information with you all for a couple weeks now, but i've been pretty busy with the holidays and what not.

Anyhow, my personal research as well as my university studies have lead me to some interesting information on Anavar and its effects on HPTA suppression, and the real hard truth behind it. Anavar has always been touted as a very 'mild' compound. For the most part, it is. But too many people have for decades been using the world 'mild' to describe every effect and aspect of this compound. Anavar is NOT 'mild' in the realm of HPTA function, nor is it 'mild' in terms of its anabolic effects (it is actually quite the powerful anabolic steroid , perhaps more so than Anadrol in fact), however that's a story for another day. The focus of my quick post here is Anavar's effects on the HPTA since that is one of the most expounded descriptions of one of the areas Anavar is frequently said to be 'mild' in. Well, i'm here to tell you all that this is absolutely not the case. Anavar is just as suppressive as any anabolic steroid out there in existance.

In my program, shortly before the Christmas break, we actually covered Anavar!!! I was extremely excited (and surprised) to see that here in a pre-med university program, we're actually covering (albeit very briefly) an anabolic steroid and its effects on the endocrine system. As anyone familiar with life-sciences programs and med school programs knows, there is no such thing as an 'anabolic steroid' course or class. So I was pretty ecstatic, even though this was very brief. We covered some of its actions in muscle tissue and other tissues, we covered its medical applications and its beneficial results in patients suffering from trauma and its use as an osteoperosis medication. A guest speaker covered most of this with us, who is a former proffessor and is a current MD involved in research in the Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism. After everything was over, I had a chance to speak to him and ask him to share/exchange information concerning Anavar and such. Of course the guy is very busy and had only a half hour to spare with me, which I thought was very generous of him. So we discussed a whole ton of AAS-related topics, of which 30 minutes was just not enough time, and man was I blown away. But where Anavar is concerned, he told me quite a few eye-opening details, and provided me with a bunch of clinical studies to investigate for my own personal amusement.

It seems as though Anavar is commonly labelled by all of the gym bros for decades as 'mildly' suppressive to the HPTA, but there is only a sliver of truth to this. This seems to only be the case with the absolute lowest of medical prescription doses (such as 5mg daily administered to children). Bodybuilding doses, which is what we are all concerned with here, is a whole different ball game and in studies demonstrate very strong suppression of endogenous Testosterone production. The most prominent study I saw was one involving 6 young male test subjects that were administered Anavar had shown that after only 5 days of Anavar administration (at only 15mg/day), the Testosterone levels ofthese 6 subjects dropped DRASTICALLY by day 5 from 449ng/dl to 282ng/dl – a 63% reduction of Testosterone in 5 days(1) That is a massive drop after such a small period of time at a dose that isn't even considered a 'bodybuilding' dose. If this is what Anavar does at 15mg daily after 5 days of use, ask yourself what bodybuilding doses (30mg MINIMUM daily of Anavar) for weeks will end up doing?

This is a graph from the study conducted. It demonstrates total androgen concentration showing total serum Testosterone (lined areas) and Oxandrolone (black areas) concentrations in five young men on days 0, 3, and 5, Testosterone decreased significantly from days 0 and 3 to day 5 (P < 0.05).

- The first point i'm making of this post is to show all of you newcomers and youngsters here who are under the age of 24 that Anavar is NOT a safe or 'mild' choice to engage in. It very well has the potential for the same amount of shutdown as a Testosterone cycle as far as I am concerned. So if you think that attempting an Anavar-only cycle for your first cycle is going to save you from any potential permanent HPTA problems later on in life, think again!

- The second point i'm making here is to show that Anavar-only cycles are destructive to the body without the inclusion of some form of Testosterone. Anavar necessitates the use of Testosterone in at least a TRT dose in order to maintain normal physiological function in the presence of a suppressed/shutdown HPTA as a result of Anavar use. Will you die if you do an Anavar-only cycle? No. But it's not optimal or healthy for the body, and can cause issues (both noticeable and un-noticeable) when your endogenous production of Testosterone bottoms out.

There exists no 'perfect anabolic steroid', but Anavar is perhaps the anabolic steroid that has come the closest to the 'perfect steroid' - but the point here it that is NOT 'perfect' by any means and still possesses its flaws.

REFERENCES:
1. Short-Term Oxandrolone Administration Stimulates Net Muscle Protein Synthesis in Young Men. Melinda Sheffield-Moore, Randall J. Urban, Steven E. Wolf, J. Jiang, Don H. Catlin, David N. Herndon, Robert R. Wolfe and Arny A. Ferrando. Sheffield-Moore et al. Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism. August 1, 1999; 84 (8): 2705

This was a good read ato mini. I know everyone is different but I've used anavar at doses as high as 150mg per day and didnt really see much benefit added to my cycle.

[bigsiv]

Great info. I plan to run anavar and clen later this year. But I had no intention of running test. Should I reconsider???

I'm not 100% on this but I wouldn't have thought anavar would 'shut down' test production of the female species. I would like to know myself if this is different for woman users concerning Anavar?????

[Atomini]

Great info. I plan to run anavar and clen later this year. But I had no intention of running test. Should I reconsider???

The information in the study I presented has no relevance to you - you're a female. Testosterone production at the level of males is not essential for your well being or survival. This is one of the things that female AAS users can get away with in comparison with men. As you may already know, your body does produce very very very miniscule amounts of Testosterone for vital function, but these levels are literally 1/10th that of a male's natural production, and it is produced by your adrenal glands (primarily) rather than in the testes. A couple of other advantages women have over men when using AAS:

- Female AAS users require no need for Testosterone in their cycles (in fact it is highly advised that women do NOT use Testosterone due to the issue of strong androgenic effects leading to virilization, although it us up to the individual if they want to use stronger androgens - some women don't care if they get some virilization, and that's fine).

- No PCT required. PCT is meant for the restoration of natural endogenous Testosterone production in the testes. As a female, you don't have testicles (at least I would hope not), they are not vital for your well being and therefore no PCT is necessary for females.

I plan on covering all of this plus more in my future write-up on the female side of AAS use, the advantages/disadvantages females have over males when it comes to AAS use, and how women should go about using them.

I'm not 100% on this but I wouldn't have thought anavar would 'shut down' test production of the female species. I would like to know myself if this is different for woman users concerning Anavar?????

You are absolutely correct. See my reply to GirlyGymRat above. Women can get away with certain things surrounding AAS use that we can't. But at the same time they face disadvantages that we don't. So there are some trade-offs to the advantages and disadvantages when it comes to AAS use for each gender.

[human project]

You are absolutely correct. See my reply to GirlyGymRat above. Women can get away with certain things surrounding AAS use that we can't. But at the same time they face disadvantages that we don't. So there are some trade-offs to the advantages and disadvantages when it comes to AAS use for each gender.

Could you please elaborate a little on this?

[bigsiv]

Atomini I would guess for the casual female user of AAS test is not needed so for the top end female BB why do they need to use such strong androgens if the risk of virilisation is so high. In competitions would they not get 'marked down' for masculine features? Can they not reach past their potential without the use of the male hormone?
(Sorry for the sidetrack)

[warmouth]

Could you please elaborate a little on this?

He is doing a big write up on it at the moment. It is going to be good! Lets give him time on this one, so we wont spoil anything. I love these things!

[human project]

Atomini I would guess for the casual female user of AAS test is not needed so for the top end female BB why do they need to use such strong androgens if the risk of virilisation is so high. In competitions would they not get 'marked down' for masculine features? Can they not reach past their potential without the use of the male hormone?
(Sorry for the sidetrack)

Right... I know absolitely nothing about a woman's hormone but I do know a few high level female bodybuilders who use compounds such as tren ....

[bigsiv]

He is doing a big write up on it at the moment. It is going to be good! Lets give him time on this one, so we wont spoil anything. I love these things!

Ha ha can't wait.........

[bigsiv]

Right... I know absolitely nothing about a woman's hormone but I do know a few high level female bodybuilders who use compounds such as tren....

Wow ....... Wow .......

[human project]

He is doing a big write up on it at the moment. It is going to be good! Lets give him time on this one, so we wont spoil anything. I love these things!

Cool thanks...... This site and its members are awesome. This place has taught me more in regards to steroids then any book I've read or even google...

[Atomini]

Could you please elaborate a little on this?

Well, in a very small nutshell, here's an example of some of the advantages/disadvantages female and male AAS users have between them:

Male AAS users:
- Men do not need to worry about virilization issues with even the strongest androgens BUT they do need to worry about heightened Estrogen levels via aromatization
- Men can run cycles for longer periods of time than women can BUT a PCT is required afterwards to ensure proper HPTA function following a cycle

Female AAS users:
- Women do not need to worry about heightened Estrogen BUT they do need to worry about virilization from the androgens
- Women can run cycles without the need for PCT because for reasons i've already explained in my posts in this thread, endogenous Testosterone production at male levels is not required for well being, BUT women can not run cycles for anywhere near the length men are able to (female cycles are reccomended to be no longer than 4 - 6 weeks max in length, and depending on the substance used
- Although women do not need to deal with HPTA suppression, they must deal with a bunch of hormonal side effects that men are unfamiliar with, such as menstrual irregularities casued by AAS


Just thought i'd outline a few pros and cons for each gender here when it comes to AAS use. There are all kinds of other things as well, of course, such as the fact that many male AAS users must deal with testicular atrophy and gynecomastia (two things women don't need to worry about), but women need to deal with things like clitoral enlargement and reduction of breast tissue. Women don't need to worry about PCT, running Testosterone in every cycle (or at all), but at the same time female choices in which AAS to use are very limited (IF they indeed care about virilization issues). I'll be expanding more on this in a write-up i'm going to be working on that focuses on female AAS use.

Atomini I would guess for the casual female user of AAS test is not needed so for the top end female BB why do they need to use such strong androgens if the risk of virilisation is so high. In competitions would they not get 'marked down' for masculine features? Can they not reach past their potential without the use of the male hormone?
(Sorry for the sidetrack)

They don't need strong androgens. You need to understand the difference between the following:

- Female BODYBUILDERS who use AAS
- Female fitness/figure competitors who use AAS
- The average female in the gym who uses AAS just to be in better shape quicker

As you can probably tell, these are 3 different tiers of users and there are distinct goal differences between the 3. And within the differences in each person's goal, you also have the difference in what each person values, prioritizes, and how far they are willing to go to reach their goals.

Female bodybuilders are exactly as described: bodybuilders trying to be absolutely huge beyond any normal female's (or even many male's) goals. They are willing to put up with the virilization of heavy androgen use, such as Trenbolone . If Trenbolone helps them get to where they want to go and they don't mind the virilization that an androgenic rating of 500 will cause, then all the power to them - but that's their personal decision.

Female fitness/figure competitors are obviously not wanting to go as far as female bodybuilders. They want to be muscular, yes, but they want to still attain that femininity and would prefer to avoid virilization. Therefore, there aren't too many female figure competitors willing to venture into the dark territory of things like Trenbolone, Testosterone, Dianabol , etc. And most of them tend to stick to things like Winstrol , Primobolan , Anavar , etc. because they present very low androgenic ratings in comparison to their anabolic effects. Virilization is not usually a concern with these compounds as long as dosages are modest and cycle length kept short (hence why females cannot run the cycle lengths that men can).

The average female hottie in the gym trying to be in peak shape faster... well, after explaining the first two, I don't really need to explain this one in-depth, right? The average female AAS user in the gym doesn't want to go anywhere NEAR transforming into a male, and at the slightest sign of their voice cracking or signs of accellerated bodily hair growth, they are likely to terminate their cycles immediately. Low doses and short cycle lengths are usually what these women engage in since the average female AAS user, as I mentioned, is probably dealthly afraid of turning into a man...

Right... I know absolitely nothing about a woman's hormone but I do know a few high level female bodybuilders who use compounds such as tren....

Likewise. I know a couple who use heavy things (for a female) like Trenbolone and Testosterone. But look at the words you used: "high level female bodybuilders". I don't think I need to say any more than that, as I just explained this answering the question right above this one. 'High level female bodybuilders' are certainly willing to take on the chance of virilization and use the heavy androgens to achieve the goals they want because they feel it's worth the effort. That's their decision - but it's not the same attitude that the average female AAS user in a gym just trying to look a little sexier every day has.

[bigsiv]

Thanx a lot Atomini great thread and great post hope Girlygymrat is still following great answers!!!

[GirlyGymRat]

i am following

Thanx a lot Atomini great thread and great post hope Girlygymrat is still following great answers!!!

[GirlyGymRat]

did you happen to read my interview by Marcus...hmmmm? you were invited to diner at my place

I plan on covering all of this plus more in my future write-up on the female side of AAS use, the advantages/disadvantages females have over males when it comes to AAS use, and how women should go about using them.

[bigsiv]

did you happen to read my interview by Marcus...hmmmm? you were invited to diner at my place

Not me lol

[Atomini]

did you happen to read my interview by Marcus...hmmmm? you were invited to diner at my place

Why thank you lol. I hadn't checked out the interview until your post reminded me just now. Sounds like a hell of a dinner lol!

[GirlyGymRat]

Not me lol

lol

[Bulkn]

Good post A.
Im not surprised, first time i used anavar 75mg (along with a small amount of test and tren ) it amazed me.

[GirlyGymRat]

I am thrilled about and looking forward to your thread on aas for females. There r so many new gals asking for help on this topic plus all the guys will benefit for their SO!!!!

Will u be posting it in this forum and as a sticky??? I pop in this forum infrequently so when would u suggest I pop back in?

Why thank you lol. I hadn't checked out the interview until your post reminded me just now. Sounds like a hell of a dinner lol!

[AnabolicDoc]

Hi Atomini,

That's some great info. In your original post and a subsequent one you mentioned that Anavar may be more anabolic than Anadrol . Can you elaborate on that?

Also, in your article you mentioned that in 5 days of Anavar supplementation, testosterone levels dropped from 449 ng/dl to 282 ng/dl. You stated that this is a 63% reduction. The math doesn't match up there, so I think you might have mistyped one of the numbers. I'm not being nit-picky, I just figured if ppl will be referencing this post that you'd want it to be as accurate as possible.

Looking forward to hearing about how it compares to Anadrol . . . thanks.

[human project]

did you happen to read my interview by Marcus...hmmmm? you were invited to diner at my place

Hey I want dinner!!!!!

[Atomini]

I am thrilled about and looking forward to your thread on aas for females. There r so many new gals asking for help on this topic plus all the guys will benefit for their SO!!!!

Will u be posting it in this forum and as a sticky??? I pop in this forum infrequently so when would u suggest I pop back in?

It will likely be posted here and in the educational threads section. I'll probably just PM you to let you know it is done and to get you to let all the other females know and spread the word.

Hi Atomini,

That's some great info. In your original post and a subsequent one you mentioned that Anavar may be more anabolic than Anadrol . Can you elaborate on that?

Also, in your article you mentioned that in 5 days of Anavar supplementation, testosterone levels dropped from 449 ng/dl to 282 ng/dl. You stated that this is a 63% reduction. The math doesn't match up there, so I think you might have mistyped one of the numbers. I'm not being nit-picky, I just figured if ppl will be referencing this post that you'd want it to be as accurate as possible.

Looking forward to hearing about how it compares to Anadrol . . . thanks.

Thanks for pointing out the math error, it looks like I did fumble on the numbers. It comes out to a 37% reduction in T levels, I just corrected it. That's still pretty significant in 5 days.

As far as it being just as strong or stronger of an anabolic than Anadrol, there's a couple of studies I checked out that demonstrate lean mass increases that are just as significant as Anadrol. The other big obvious factor here that anyone might notice is the fact that Anadrol possesses an anabolic rating of 320, and Anavar possesses a rating of approximately 322 - 630. That means Anavar is at LEAST 3x the strength of Testosterone , which is pretty significant if you ask me. The problem in comparing the two specifically is the fact that we know Anadrol exhibits anabolic effects that are non-receptor mediated, which serve to potentiate Anadrol's anabolic effects far greater than what might be indicated by its anabolic rating. Anadrol is also just one of those overall mysterious and weird substances that does things contrary to what it should (such as the high Estrogenic activity of Anadrol). But in any case, with an anabolic rating range of 322 - 630, it is pretty evident that Anavar is A LOT stronger than most people make it out to be. I think not enough people give Anavar the respect that it deserves in the department of lean mass gains. I think something can be said for this in the manner by which people experience incredible strength gains on Anavar, and those who have bulked up with Anavar have also experienced some eye popping gains (which are for the most part all lean in comparison to Anadrol). It's something to look into further.

[GirlyGymRat]

You sir have a deal

It will likely be posted here and in the educational threads section. I'll probably just PM you to let you know it is done and to get you to let all the other females know and spread the word.

[Atomini]

You sir have a deal

Speaking of which, where did the female members area of the forum go? I know it was accessible by females only, but I noticed it's not even around here to click on. Did Admin just hide the forum from all members but females?

[GirlyGymRat]

I believe that to be true. There is a female forum that would be well suited for your thread. I am sure admin can post it as a sticky for us in the female forum as well as in the educational location

It would be good if post includes a link that directs all comments and questions into the open forum that u could then answer. I have seen similar links done by Gbrice in his threads. That way there will be one place for incoming questions housed in the open forum in a common thread. Or u can ask admin for female access rights. Lol.

BTW I that u r doing this subject!!!

Speaking of which, where did the female members area of the forum go? I know it was accessible by females only, but I noticed it's not even around here to click on. Did Admin just hide the forum from all members but females?

[jasc]

Excellent thread Atomini

[AnabolicDoc]

Thanks for pointing out the math error, it looks like I did fumble on the numbers. It comes out to a 37% reduction in T levels, I just corrected it. That's still pretty significant in 5 days.

As far as it being just as strong or stronger of an anabolic than Anadrol, there's a couple of studies I checked out that demonstrate lean mass increases that are just as significant as Anadrol. The other big obvious factor here that anyone might notice is the fact that Anadrol possesses an anabolic rating of 320, and Anavar possesses a rating of approximately 322 - 630. That means Anavar is at LEAST 3x the strength of Testosterone, which is pretty significant if you ask me. The problem in comparing the two specifically is the fact that we know Anadrol exhibits anabolic effects that are non-receptor mediated, which serve to potentiate Anadrol's anabolic effects far greater than what might be indicated by its anabolic rating. Anadrol is also just one of those overall mysterious and weird substances that does things contrary to what it should (such as the high Estrogenic activity of Anadrol). But in any case, with an anabolic rating range of 322 - 630, it is pretty evident that Anavar is A LOT stronger than most people make it out to be. I think not enough people give Anavar the respect that it deserves in the department of lean mass gains. I think something can be said for this in the manner by which people experience incredible strength gains on Anavar, and those who have bulked up with Anavar have also experienced some eye popping gains (which are for the most part all lean in comparison to Anadrol). It's something to look into further.

It's funny now that I think about it, I have a friend who used to do some pretty decent cycles. Now he does Anavar only cycles (30mg/day) for a few months before and into the early summer months. He actually gets some nice results, such as a significant drop in body fat (with diet only, no cardio) and impressive lean mass gains. He of course does resistance training as well.

I think he belongs to the small group of ppl whose HPTA doesn't shutdown in response to exogenous androgens. If you research male contraception (on PubMed), you will see that there is consistently a small group (under 20%) of ppl whose HPTA does not seem to shutdown in response to whatever androgen is given. I mention this bc I think it may be to some extent this minority who has good results with Anavar-only cycles who continues to popularize the misconception that Anavar is mild and does not shut you down.

[Atomini]

It's funny now that I think about it, I have a friend who used to do some pretty decent cycles. Now he does Anavar only cycles (30mg/day) for a few months before and into the early summer months. He actually gets some nice results, such as a significant drop in body fat (with diet only, no cardio) and impressive lean mass gains. He of course does resistance training as well.

I think he belongs to the small group of ppl whose HPTA doesn't shutdown in response to exogenous androgens. If you research male contraception (on PubMed), you will see that there is consistently a small group (under 20%) of ppl whose HPTA does not seem to shutdown in response to whatever androgen is given. I mention this bc I think it may be to some extent this minority who has good results with Anavar-only cycles who continues to popularize the misconception that Anavar is mild and does not shut you down.

Yup and I am one of those people myself. I know that even if I do shut down or become suppressed, I bounce back very quickly following a cycle. I'm actually one of the rare 1% that doesn't totally shut down on cycle, even on things like Trenbolone . Had bloodwork done once while on cycle a few times and my body was producing LH and FSH and almost normal levels. Of course, everyone has their own sensitivity to HPTA shutdown (some shut down hard than others, faster than others, and some don't shut down at all).

[AnabolicDoc]

Is it really only about 1% that doesn't shutdown? I feel like I've seen higher numbers (but I could be wrong) in studies where high dose testosterone was being tested as a male contraceptive. In the study I recall about 15-20% retained fertility (which I think is a good marker of HPTA suppression). I'll have to double check. But I imagine the percentage of ppl who don't shutdown with AAS use would be even lower still.

But if you're certain that it's closer to 1% I'm inclined to believe you as you seem to know your stuff. For whatever its worth, I'm sure you'll make a great doctor (you're currently pre-med correct?).

[Atomini]

It is actually closer in reality to your stated numbers of the 20% range or so. My statement of 1% was just a generalized figure of speech to imply that it is a fairly small rare group of people who's HPTA is unaffected or affected to a lesser degree. I would love to see some more studies done on this, actually. I'd gladly volunteer to be a test subject, because I know even just anecdotally that I have to be one of these people, and my bloodwork shows it. I still always go through a PCT though. I'm sure you've heard of the occasional AAS user who claims to have never done a PCT and recovered just fine as well. Although their decision was stupid, those people are also likely a part of that rare group.

[warhog]

I haven't had appetite issues on Anavar. I'm runnign 100mg daily of it with 200mg Trenbolone and 100mg testosterone weekly.

I most enjoy and appreciate the wealth of knowledge you have to offer since I've joined the forum Atomini. I have run Test e 500mg for 12 weeks with Anavar 80mg ed for the last 4 weeks on 3 seperate occasions, with Nolva 40/40/20/20 and Clomid 100/75/50/50 and HCG 500iu's a week for the 4 week long PCT I start 2 weeks after last pin of Test e, with success. I want to incorporate Trenbolone for my next cycle. I was planing on staying with the 80mg Anavar. Is it okay to keep this at the end of my cycle? I am aware that 500mg of Test is unnecessary due to the potency of Tren and will only be used to maintain adequate testosterone levels . Would you reccommend 200mg Tren a week for a first timer throughout the 12 weeks? Would Test Prop 100mg a week be better than Test E due to its short ester. I ask this because I am confused on when to start HCG. If i were to use Test Prop would I just start my standard PCT 3 days after last pin, or will the Tren ester length conflict? I know there are quite a few questions here and I appologize but I do value your generous knowledge. Thanks!

[Metalject]

Let me preface by saying I'm not trying to stir the pot, simply adding to the conversation.

You're right, a lot of people mistakingly assume Anavar won't have a significant impact on test production. Somehow some believe it won't have any affect. However, when the claim that it's a mild steroid in this regard, there is some truth to that when you compare it to most anabolic steroids . For example, take the study used by William Llewllyn in his Anabolics book. 216 men given Anavar, here are the stats:

*Group 1:
20-40mg Anavar per day for 20wks
40% average reduction in serum testosterone levels
LH decreased by 25-30%

*Group 2:
80mg Anavar per day for 20wks
66% average reduction in serum testosterone levels
LH decreased by 50+%

THe overall point, yes it's suppressive and the rate of suppression can definitely make this an issue if exogenous testosterone is not used. However, it's still far less suppression than most steroids and could be labeled mild when compared to most anabolic steroids .

Anyway, just food for thought.

[Atomini]

Metalject,

Correct. However, now we are splitting hairs here. The problem with splitting hairs in topics like these is that kids and inexperienced users will grab any possible excuse they can find to justify running an improper Anavar -only cycle at bodybuilding doses. All anabolic steroids cause HPTA suppression/shutdown to varying degrees. The fact is that a 40% reduction in blood plasma Testosterone levels is significant. So is 66%. And if a study demonstrated a 20% reduction, I would still consider that a significant enough amount of suppression to warrant a warning to people as well.

Fact of the matter is that a 40% or greater reduction in endogenous Testosterone secretion is not healthy for the body, and I don't believe it is valid justification for running Anavar on its own.