Estrogen, Prolactin, Progesterone Management + Gynecomastia Prevention & Reversal

[austinite]

Great write up! Thank you!

Quick question (or clarification).. When on HRT some of us supplement with DHEA and Pregnenolone. If a new cycle is started using a 19-nor, should the Pregnenolone supplement be discontinued at this time? (Or at least till when you are done with the 19-nor?)

You can continue to supplement.

[Iron Mind]

Thank you very much for writing this. It's a great read.

I've been reading allot about SERMs, AIs during a cycle and for PCT and it all depends on your bloodwork (as you said in your text!!!)..

But I'm a bit confused though because of all the contradictions on the forum/internet.

So during a cycle you SHOULD use an AI (after you did your bloodwork and E2 is too high) e.g.
- aromasin or arimidex

(hCG use is also possible, but I'll leave that question for an other topic)

and when you use an AI during your cycle and have no gyno, you won't need to use a SERM during your cycle right? Or would I always need a SERM and AI during my cycle if I would be prone to a Estrogen Related Side Effects?

so when you run an AI because E2 is too high and you have no gyno or whatever and E2 get within the normal range again because of the arimidex or aromasin you continue the cycle like you normally would and when the cycle is over you start the PCT.

The PCT would look like this e.g.:
- 1 or 2 SERMs: clomid, nolva
- AI: aromasin
(-hCG)


I'm trying to get everything in my head so it all seems more logical, because there are allot of contradictions about using AI's and SERM's during your cycle, because it would suppress your gains? I have never used AAS before, but it seems to me that preventing gyno, water retention etc. would be better than curing it. Of course this all will depend on my E2 levels before and during my cycle if I would need a AI and/or SERM, right?

Thanks in advance, I would really appreciate it if you could spare some time to help me out here.

[austinite]

^ Adverse interactions between Arimidex and Nolva might change shortly. One of our members (100%) pointed me to a study that proved there are no interactions. I'm still researching further and will update when I know.

AI is to be used from week 1 of your cycle. Not after blood work. Blood work is to verify that your dose is working.

Not sure what you mean by "HCG use is possible". It's necessary.

If you develop gynecomastia , you most certainly need a SERM. Never count on an AI to reverse gynecomastia.

PCT is 2 SERMS, not 1 or 2. Always 2. No hCG during PCT, ever.

Anyone that tells you that an AI or SERM is suppressing gains is nonsense. There isnt a whole lot that can affect gains, and if anything actually does, it's so negligible, you wouldn't even think twice. I run high doses of T3 with ZERO effect on muscle gain.

Hope that answers your concerns.

[Iron Mind]

^ Adverse interactions between Arimidex and Nolva might change shortly. One of our members (100%) pointed me to a study that proved there are no interactions. I'm still researching further and will update when I know.

Oke, great!

AI is to be used from week 1 of your cycle. Not after blood work. Blood work is to verify that your dose is working.

Okay, I'll.

Not sure what you mean by "HCG use is possible". It's necessary.


If you develop gynecomastia , you most certainly need a SERM. Never count on an AI to reverse gynecomastia.

PCT is 2 SERMS, not 1 or 2. Always 2. No hCG during PCT, ever.

Anyone that tells you that an AI or SERM is suppressing gains is nonsense. There isnt a whole lot that can affect gains, and if anything actually does, it's so negligible, you wouldn't even think twice. I run high doses of T3 with ZERO effect on muscle gain.

Hope that answers your concerns.

Thanks allot for your quick answers.

So that would make a cycle look like this.

Cycle for e.g. 12 weeks:
- 1-12 week AAS injectable, oral etc.
- 1-12 week hCG
- 1-12 week AI: aromasin or arimidex? because letro would be too heavy.
- 1 SERM if gyno occurs: nolva

PCT:
- 13-17 week: 2 SERMs: clomid, nolva

I'm curious why there should be no hCG in the PCT is that because of the forum advices to directly start PCT the week after your last injection, so therefore it would be not necessery to use hCG in your PCT, because you used hCG in your last week during your cycle. Is that the reason hCG should not be used in the PCT?

Thanks allot.

I'm not sure yet about all the mg/ED during cycle or to reverse things, so therefore I left them out in my "example cycle".

and what about using proviron as an AI, some say it's use would make a "real" AI abundant and some say that's nonsense. What should I believe?

[austinite]

hCG is suppressive. You don't want it during PCT. Only on cycle.

Proviron is the weakest compound known to man. Good for libido boost only. I don't ever see any possible good use for it.

Please be sure to list your complete stats for any cycle critique. Thanks Iron.

[austinite]

Might want to visit this thread also...

My First Cycle: Planning and Executing a Successful First Cycle

[Iron Mind]

Thanks, I already started reading it.

I'm trying to plan my first cycle and I want to get everything right..

[austinite]

- Note: Drug interactions updated 08/16/2013. No adverse interaction between Arimidex & Nolvadex. Thanks to member: 100% for this study.

[teezer33]

There is a really good app on from cvs on android for adverse reactions between medications

[gearhead316]

Awesome write up!! What are your thoughts on the role of Masteron and its use in trying to control estrogen levels?

[austinite]

Awesome write up!! What are your thoughts on the role of Masteron and its use in trying to control estrogen levels?

Not a good idea. Masteron is very mild in the presence of estrogen on cycle, so it should never be considered your primary inhibitor.

[Boobyman]

Hi Austinite,

Would be grateful for your advice on the following:

Im 32 years old male currently weighing 94 KGs, ive lost about 20KG during past few months to get in a better shape. Im pretty much convinced that ive gynachomastia. My estradiol levels are 111pmol/L and my testosterone is 19.7nmol/L.

Do you think my estradiol is high and treating that would reverse my gynechomastia, what is the best option to treat estradiol?

Many thanks

[austinite]

Hi Austinite,

Would be grateful for your advice on the following:

Im 32 years old male currently weighing 94 KGs, ive lost about 20KG during past few months to get in a better shape. Im pretty much convinced that ive gynachomastia. My estradiol levels are 111pmol/L and my testosterone is 19.7nmol/L.

Do you think my estradiol is high and treating that would reverse my gynechomastia, what is the best option to treat estradiol?

Many thanks

please list the ranges for your blood work.

[Boobyman]

please list the ranges for your blood work.

THS 1.2 mU/L (0.4-4.9)
Prolactin 214mU/L (73-407)
Estradiol 111 pmol/L (40-162)
Testosterone 19.7 nmol/L (10-28)
Cortisol 247 nmol/L (101-536)
Sex hormone binding globulin level 36nmol/L (13-71).

Thanks

[austinite]

^ Your blood levels are fine. Actually, they're near perfect. Why do you think you have gynecomastia ? Do you feel an actual lump?

[Boobyman]

^ Your blood levels are fine. Actually, they're near perfect. Why do you think you have gynecomastia? Do you feel an actual lump?

Thanks.
I've been overweight since my teenage and always found size of my breasts bigger as compared to my weight. I'm not sure about the lump but when I lie down straight and massage my breast I can feel a thick round disk behind and around my nipple. Also, the dark skin around my nipple is a lot bigger than normally found in men. I'm 6 feet with 35" waist at the moment but size of my breasts is way out of proportion.

Could this be just fat that is stuck?
Or could it be that at some point my hormones got messed around but they corrected themselves except affecting my breasts?

[austinite]

^ Could be just fat, or pubertal gynecomastia . Either way, before treatment, I would make a visit to a doc to verify what it is. Just see your doctor, if they can't help, they will refer you to a specialist.

"Most" of the cases that I've seen online, end up being just fat.

[Boobyman]

^ Could be just fat, or pubertal gynecomastia . Either way, before treatment, I would make a visit to a doc to verify what it is. Just see your doctor, if they can't help, they will refer you to a specialist.

"Most" of the cases that I've seen online, end up being just fat.

Ok, many thanks for your help

[abl197]

Hi I have a question is it true that winstrol during cycle can lower progesterone and also reverse gyno

[abl197]

Hi I have a question is it true that winstrol during cycle can lower progesterone and also reverse gyno

I got this info from another site

WinstrolThe use of Winstrol is also an effective method of controlling progesterone-induced gyno, as it is anti-progestagenic. An effective dose appears to be in the vicinity of 50mg eod (depot) or 30 to 35mg/day (tabs) although this dose may require increasing depending on the doses being employed in the stack.One important point worth mentioning is, although generally the progestins do not aromatise, there is an exception to this rule: Deca , as well as being a progestin also aromatises, only very slightly, but nevertheless, still does to some extent. Although this is not nearly enough to cause the large majority any problems at all, for those extremely sensitive to gyno, this small amount of aromatisation to oestrogen can be enough of an elevation to activate the progesterone. Very few people are likely to suffer this, but we feel it is a point worth mentioning
Link http://articles.muscletalk.co.uk/oes...gesterone.aspx

[austinite]

^ Any effect of winstrol on progesterone is negligible and not a solution. Probably the dumbest idea I've ever heard of in my life. Take more steroids for the sole purpose of combating progesterone? I'd like to invite whoever wrote that here. You combat progesterone by controlling E2, period.

[kelkel]

^ Any effect of winstrol on progesterone is negligible and not a solution. Probably the dumbest idea I've ever heard of in my life. Take more steroids for the sole purpose of combating progesterone? I'd like to invite whoever wrote that here. You combat progesterone by controlling E2, period.

I know this guy who moved a stripper in once. Or twice...

[abl197]

I got this info from the below link describe the relationship between winstrol and progesterone

http://www.************.com/forum/an...ntagonist.html

The anabolic steroid stanozolol stimulates the production of prostaglandin E2 (PGE2) and the matrix metalloproteinases collagenase and stromelysin in human skin fibroblasts but not in rheumatoid synovial fibroblasts. The basis for these differential responses was investigated at the levels of DNA synthesis and steroid receptor binding. Stanozolol inhibited fibroblast growth factor (FGF)-stimulated DNA synthesis in both the skin and synovial fibroblasts, showing that both cell types were capable of responding to the compound. Competitive binding assays indicated that stanozolol bound specifically to both the skin and synovial fibroblasts. Binding of stanozolol to both cell types could be partially displaced by progesterone, indicating that stanozolol binds to the progesterone receptor. Immunocytochemical studies confirmed the presence of progesterone receptors on skin and synovial fibroblasts. However, progesterone failed to elicit any response with respect to collagenase production in either cell type. Nortestosterone, dexamethasone and 17 beta-oestradiol had no effect on binding of stanozolol to either cell type. These results indicate that the inhibition of DNA synthesis by stanozolol is elicited through the progesterone receptor. The effects of stanozolol on collagenase and PGE2 production are mediated by a different receptor, present on skin but not synovial fibroblasts, and as yet unidentified.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Virtually all androgens bind to the progesterone receptor to some degree; similarly progestins (and antiprogestins) bind to the androgen receptor. RU 486 binds to the androgen receptor as an antiandrogen, rendering it useless for bodybuilders. As far as the winstrol article goes, has anyone bothered to actually read the whole study? Presumably we are supposed to believe winstrol has some kind of antiprogestin capability because it blocked FGF stimulated DNA synthesis. The effect on DNA synthesis was measured by thymidine uptake. Less thymidine uptake means less DNA synthesis. Quoting from page 38 of the article, " A significant inhibition of thymidine uptake was seen in response to stanozolol in both cell types. The steroids nortestosterone, oxymetholone, and progesterone itself were also tested for their effect on thymidine uptake to determine whether the effects of stanozolol on DNA synthesis were unique. These other compounds also inhibited DNA synthesis in both cell types" In other words, winstrol has THE SAME effect as progesterone on progesterone receptor mediated DNA synthesis: they both block it. So rather than acting as an antiprogesterone in this study, winstrol, as well as nandrolone and oxymetholone, act in the same manner as progesterone

[austinite]

^ Great, like I said earlier, nonsense...

[bigsiv]

Hats off austinite great write up!

[zeeibi]

thanks for this write up! learnt alot! much appreciated

[killer41qc]

Thank you OP very nice thread but I have a question. Could having low estrogen cause ED or only high would?

[austinite]

Thank you OP very nice thread but I have a question. Could having low estrogen cause ED or only high would?

Low or high can cause ED.

[devil-1986]

finaly ,Which would be better results and better to use it for gyneco ? Tamoxifen ? Raloxifene ? or both ? how long ? dose ?

[Megalodon6]

finaly ,Which would be better results and better to use it for gyneco ? Tamoxifen ? Raloxifene ? or both ? how long ? dose ?

Ralox 60mg ed until gyno is gone

[devil-1986]

and have it any side effect ?

[austinite]

^ None reported to date.

[AD]

and have it any side effect ?

All drugs have sides. Even drinking excessive amount of water can be unhealthy. It's all about balancing the risks to benefits.

[bass]

got Raloxifene, will run this after I am done with T3.

[EasyDoesIt]

Magnificent article! Thanks for taking the time and sharing.

[JungleSlut]

i feel like everything iive learned on this site been.from austinite. asset.is.an understatement

[devil-1986]

hi austinie i do bloodwork and that tell me my estradiol level is high as you can see

T4 8.1 5.4-12.6
T3 180 84-202
T.S.H 0.3 0.25-6.2
free t4 1.26 0.93-1.7
free t3 2.16 1.5-4.1
F.S.H 2.5 1-14
L.H 5 0.7-7.4
testosterone HIGH 44 8.64-29
free testosterone 11 4.25-30.37
estradiol HIGH 96 7-42
P.S.A 0.4 up to 4
IGF-1 117 89-276
DHEA-SO4 HIGH 490 160-449

what should i do to return this to normal range ? i m not on cycle and never cycle before im wonder why this is go so high ? plz help me can i use AI to return my hormones to normal range ?
plz help i need your help austinie

[austinite]

^ Get a sensitive E2 assay, not regular estradiol. But you can start with Your testosterone is high. When did you finish your last cycle and when was this blood work taken?

[devil-1986]

^ Get a sensitive E2 assay, not regular estradiol. But you can start with Your testosterone is high. When did you finish your last cycle and when was this blood work taken?

I dont never cycling before until now and im take this blood work about two weeks ago because i do one more blood work 3 months before current blood work and my estrogen level was high and dr tell me to use nolvadex for 8 week and after 6 weeks i do this blood work and get this result and discontinued nolva for two weeks after this final blood work tell me what should i do could it be dangerous for me ?
plz help

[austinite]

How old are you and what is your body fat percentage? Your testosterone to estrogen ratio makes sense.