Mike Tyson vs. Ken Shamrock

[MMA]

Tyson would not lose to any MMA fighters. Sorry MMA, but your avatar sais who is biased.

so the fact that i have knowledge of the field we're discussing means i'm biased? i have years of MMA training, and even more years of boxing (which i use every time i do MMA), but somehow this makes me unqualified to discuss how a boxer would do in MMA? even tho i was once a boxer starting off in MMA?

Of course were talking about an in shape Tyson. The problem is simple, The MMA gloves. Tyson hits extremely hard with normal boxing gloves. Simply put, he would risk killing someone with MMA gloves with every punch.

but somehow he has punched mitch green and others bareknuckle on the street without killing them

Also, it wouldn't have to be a punch to the face, If a grappler comes in low he could punch him in the back and break his ribs, or back of the head.

a boxers power doesn't come from magic, it comes from good body dynamics and good technique. it would be very difficult for a boxer to generate a lot of power striking at some of the awkward angles you describe. if it was really that easy, strikers would be completely dominating MMA.

For example, if Tyson was to study MMA instead of boxing, it would take away from his skill level as a boxer in my opinion. Remember, were not talking about someone just starting out but someone who has reached the zenith in his sport. If Liddel can knock out Coutere, who was supposed to be the best in MMA, then what do you think Tyson would do to Liddel. Liddel is my favorite MMA fighter but his goal in every fight is to strike an opponent out, not submit them. If he stood toe to toe with Tyson he would get killed, simple as that.

agreed, which is why he wouldn't even try. read my earlier posts. if you really think a well rounded MMA fighter like liddel would ever attempt to slug with tyson you're out of your mind. the only punches and kicks he would possibly throw would be purely to help set up a takedown attempt. believe me, liddell is a pro fighter, he knows everything you know about tysons capabilities, and can make a game plan accordingly. he is a former collegiate wrestler, his takedowns are quite good, he just doesn't use them often because he is usually the better stiker and goes for the "sprawl and brawl" gameplan. his jiu jitsu is very good as well, and he's quite capable of finishing tyson if he got a hold of him.

[QUOTE=FRANK WHITE] Grappling and takedown moves work, I agree with you there, but they won't against someone with the speed and power of an in shape Tyson. Sorry bro, I respect you experience, but I have five tough years of experience with Dan Inosanto and several more with Kent Moyer. The only MMA guys who might stand a chance against a Mike Tyson in his prime fighter would be someone like Bruce Lee. A man with extraordinary speed and power. Someone who could avoid Tyson's shots and return with enough power to do damage themselves.

Tyson would not lose to any MMA fighters. Sorry MMA, but your avatar sais who is biased.

now who's biased? do you really think a 140 pound striker is going to outpunch or kick mike tyson, and knock him out? and you think he has better odds than a grappler who only need s to get a hold of you ONCE to finish you? to get a realistic appreciation of how hard it can be for a striker to stop a good grappler, you might want to read up on how badly bruce lost to judo gene lebell when they sparred.

To the gentleman who sais everyone is a youngster who believes a one dimensional fighter can't beat a well rounded fighter look up the name Bill Wallace. He won many Marshal arts tourney's with just a right roundhouse kick. And I'm no youngster either.

please tell me what vale tudo, freestyle of MMA competitions bill wallace won? he was a kickboxing champion, and yes, a great kicker can win a kickboxing championship, the same way a great wrestler can win a wrestling tournament, but these have NOTHING to do with what we're talking about.

In Summary, being extraordinary in one technique will win against someone who is simply very good at several technique's and to achieve that extraordinary level one must train those basics over and over.

a very valid principle, but there are other principles you're ignoring that are more important in this case. if a fighter has a huge, glaring vulnerability, if he doesn't protect it somehow, he's cooked.

As we stated earlier, I respect your opinion. We'll simply have to agree to disagree. But its a fun discussion.

classy

[Cyto78]

so the fact that i have knowledge of the field we're discussing means i'm biased? i have years of MMA training, and even more years of boxing (which i use every time i do MMA), but somehow this makes me unqualified to discuss how a boxer would do in MMA? even tho i was once a boxer starting off in MMA?




but somehow he has punched mitch green and others bareknuckle on the street without killing them




a boxers power doesn't come from magic, it comes from good body dynamics and good technique. it would be very difficult for a boxer to generate a lot of power striking at some of the awkward angles you describe. if it was really that easy, strikers would be completely dominating MMA.



agreed, which is why he wouldn't even try. read my earlier posts. if you really think a well rounded MMA fighter like liddel would ever attempt to slug with tyson you're out of your mind. the only punches and kicks he would possibly throw would be purely to help set up a takedown attempt. believe me, liddell is a pro fighter, he knows everything you know about tysons capabilities, and can make a game plan accordingly. he is a former collegiate wrestler, his takedowns are quite good, he just doesn't use them often because he is usually the better stiker and goes for the "sprawl and brawl" gameplan. his jiu jitsu is very good as well, and he's quite capable of finishing tyson if he got a hold of him.




now who's biased? do you really think a 140 pound striker is going to outpunch or kick mike tyson, and knock him out? and you think he has better odds than a grappler who only need s to get a hold of you ONCE to finish you? to get a realistic appreciation of how hard it can be for a striker to stop a good grappler, you might want to read up on how badly bruce lost to judo gene lebell when they sparred.



please tell me what vale tudo, freestyle of MMA competitions bill wallace won? he was a kickboxing champion, and yes, a great kicker can win a kickboxing championship, the same way a great wrestler can win a wrestling tournament, but these have NOTHING to do with what we're talking about.



a very valid principle, but there are other principles you're ignoring that are more important in this case. if a fighter has a huge, glaring vulnerability, if he doesn't protect it somehow, he's cooked.



classy

Yo MMA you are right in everything you say.....you will go round and round with these people that believe Tyson would destroy an MMA fighter.You obviously have alot of knowledge of the fight game and a good 98% of the fighting world would agree with what you say...even the boxers themselves would agree that they would be dominated in an MMA event unless they also cross trained for a period of time before.These people seem to think Tyson is a Kodiak Bear or something and with one swipe of his paw is going to break the lions back......there are many fighters in the MMA world who are faster, much more powerful and brutal,and have numerous skills not just one.Bro this debate will probably go on and on for ever but im sure you know there is few in the world that will disagree with what you say.A fight is far from just boxing.Tyson is human people remeber this.Could you even imagine Tyson on one side of the octagon......McCarthy yells let's get it on and Tyson only has his punching ability and nothing else...no defense...nothing!!!!!I've felt kinda sorry for him as of late seeing him get punished like he has but this would be the icing on the cake......it will never happen because he will never attempt it......

[Glock-19]

After watchin Rich Franklin destroy Shamrock 3 weeks ago I would have to still go with Shamrock.

No love for an ear eating, tatoo face, woman beating, moron.

[FRANK WHITE]

Yo MMA you are right in everything you say.....you will go round and round with these people that believe Tyson would destroy an MMA fighter.You obviously have alot of knowledge of the fight game and a good 98% of the fighting world would agree with what you say...even the boxers themselves would agree that they would be dominated in an MMA event unless they also cross trained for a period of time before.These people seem to think Tyson is a Kodiak Bear or something and with one swipe of his paw is going to break the lions back......there are many fighters in the MMA world who are faster, much more powerful and brutal,and have numerous skills not just one.Bro this debate will probably go on and on for ever but im sure you know there is few in the world that will disagree with what you say.A fight is far from just boxing.Tyson is human people remeber this.Could you even imagine Tyson on one side of the octagon......McCarthy yells let's get it on and Tyson only has his punching ability and nothing else...no defense...nothing!!!!!I've felt kinda sorry for him as of late seeing him get punished like he has but this would be the icing on the cake......it will never happen because he will never attempt it......

First, what boxers would admit they would get dominated in an MMA event?

Second, name one MMA fighter who is faster and more powerful as an in shape Tyson.

Ya, I could imagine Tyson on the side of the octagon. It would be the other guy you should worry about.

No disrespect to MMA guys. There tough as hell and could seriously hurt any normal person. But an in shape Tyson if far from a normal person. If I can KO a wrestler, grappler, and on more than one occasion, a jui jitsu specialist, with mainly just L.I.N.E techniques. (Military Acronym for Linear Involuntary Nuerological engagement) I know someone with Tyson's speed and power would simply catch a grappler coming in somewhere and bust him up to the point they would be disabled or unable to continue, Liddel included. And I really like Liddel. Also, ya I'm biased, but biased towards Jeet Kune do, not boxing. Remember Jeet Kune do teaches " We favor formlessnes so we can assume all forms" Quote from Bruce Lee, so you would think I would support the MMA guy. Just haven't seen it happen at the elite level were talking here.

I will admit that the current Tyson isn't what he was and could possibly be taken by some of the Top MMA guys, no Shamrock. The Tyson of the eighties would go through the MMA like Germany went through Poland.

And MMA, the example of Bill Wallace was to show that one technique is all you need to dominate an event, if that technique is by far superior to a group of techniques.

And no, all your other training outside of boxing was not wasted. I think it is very useful to learn as much as you can about every fighting style. Thus I studied Jeet kune do. I just feel that in the afformentioned case of Mike Tyson only a very, very special fighter with extraordinary talent in MMA would be able to handle his speed and power. Thus the Bruce Lee example.
I'd love to see a fight between Liddel and Tyson though. Just to see if I'm proven correct. It would be really fun to watch.

I feel it would unfold like this. Liddel would be circling Tyson at a distance looking for an opening to get inside and take the fight to the ground. The problem is Tyson would know this was Liddel's only chance and be ready for such a tactic. And don't you think Tyson would have at least some preperation in how to counter this. Do we really think Tyson would not even look at any MMA fights to know what to expect. When Liddel made his move Tyson would unload a viscous punch somewhere on Liddel which would either knock him down or at least knock him off balance, where Tyson would move close enough to land the bomb which would end the fight.

[Glock-19]

First, what boxers would admit they would get dominated in an MMA event?

Second, name one MMA fighter who is faster and more powerful as an in shape Tyson.

Ya, I could imagine Tyson on the side of the octagon. It would be the other guy you should worry about.

No disrespect to MMA guys. There tough as hell and could seriously hurt any normal person. But an in shape Tyson if far from a normal person. If I can KO a wrestler, grappler, and on more than one occasion, a jui jitsu specialist, with mainly just L.I.N.E techniques. (Military Acronym for Linear Involuntary Nuerological engagement) I know someone with Tyson's speed and power would simply catch a grappler coming in somewhere and bust him up to the point they would be disabled or unable to continue, Liddel included. And I really like Liddel. Also, ya I'm biased, but biased towards Jeet Kune do, not boxing. Remember Jeet Kune do teaches " We favor formlessnes so we can assume all forms" Quote from Bruce Lee, so you would think I would support the MMA guy. Just haven't seen it happen at the elite level were talking here.

I will admit that the current Tyson isn't what he was and could possibly be taken by some of the Top MMA guys, no Shamrock. The Tyson of the eighties would go through the MMA like Germany went through Poland.

And MMA, the example of Bill Wallace was to show that one technique is all you need to dominate an event, if that technique is by far superior to a group of techniques.

And no, all your other training outside of boxing was not wasted. I think it is very useful to learn as much as you can about every fighting style. Thus I studied Jeet kune do. I just feel that in the afformentioned case of Mike Tyson only a very, very special fighter with extraordinary talent in MMA would be able to handle his speed and power. Thus the Bruce Lee example.
I'd love to see a fight between Liddel and Tyson though. Just to see if I'm proven correct. It would be really fun to watch.

I feel it would unfold like this. Liddel would be circling Tyson at a distance looking for an opening to get inside and take the fight to the ground. The problem is Tyson would know this was Liddel's only chance and be ready for such a tactic. And don't you think Tyson would have at least some preperation in how to counter this. Do we really think Tyson would not even look at any MMA fights to know what to expect. When Liddel made his move Tyson would unload a viscous punch somewhere on Liddel which would either knock him down or at least knock him off balance, where Tyson would move close enough to land the bomb which would end the fight.

Liddel would take the fight to the ground against tyson? LMFAO Liddel would kick Tyson in the head and watch him drop. Boxers are just to one dimensional. If you cant see that than you have no knowledge of MMA whatsoever. I dont think tyson could beat any MMA heavyweight at MMA. Mabe he might win in a boxing match but not a real fight. The more knowledge you gain on the sport of MMA, the more you will see things for how they really are.

[100m champ]

ken shamrock is a fag.. MIKE BLASTS HIM WITH ONE OVERHAND AND KEN WILL BE FUC* UP AND DOWN FOR THE COUNT STUID KEN

[FRANK WHITE]

Liddel would take the fight to the ground against tyson? LMFAO Liddel would kick Tyson in the head and watch him drop. Boxers are just to one dimensional. If you cant see that than you have no knowledge of MMA whatsoever. I dont think tyson could beat any MMA heavyweight at MMA. Mabe he might win in a boxing match but not a real fight. The more knowledge you gain on the sport of MMA, the more you will see things for how they really are.

I've got over ten years knowledge of MMA Bro, what your not understanding is just how fast and skilled an elite boxer is. I agree that if two so called average people(whatever that is) train, one in MMA and the other in boxing, the MMA guy will have an advantage if they train for the same length of time. Again, as previously stated, boxers at the level Mike Tyson once was are so much more talented and skilled than the MMA guys it would be like watching a pro team against a division 2 college team. Thats what your not getting. If liddel tried to kick tyson he would leave himself wide open to getting clocked, and thats what would happen. If Tyson hit liddel anywhere, just knocked him off balance, its over. This would allow Tyson to get in safely and land the bomb. Liddels only chance would be to somewhow get inside and try to submit Tyson. If Liddel could navigate the mine field of bombs, most of which he'd never see, he might,and I say might in a very generous way, have a chance. But I just don't see it happening bro..

[MMA]

First, what boxers would admit they would get dominated in an MMA event?

Second, name one MMA fighter who is faster and more powerful as an in shape Tyson.

you have a good point there, but i'm not arguing that these guys can beat tyson because they're faster or more explosive. i'm simply arguing that it's easier for a skilled MMA fighter to end up in a clinch than it is for a striker to land a knockout punch. everyone remembers the knockout punches tyson lands, but no one remembers the THOUSANDS of punches he has thrown that HAVEN'T knocked people out. even tyson has had far more clinches in his career than knockouts. he has 40 something spectacular knockouts, but how many thousands of punches has he thrown in his career? yes, most MMA fighters won't have the striking skills that tysons opponents have, but their specialized takedown and clinching techniques MORE than make up for it.

Ya, I could imagine Tyson on the side of the octagon. It would be the other guy you should worry about.

No disrespect to MMA guys. There tough as hell and could seriously hurt any normal person. But an in shape Tyson if far from a normal person. If I can KO a wrestler, grappler, and on more than one occasion, a jui jitsu specialist, with mainly just L.I.N.E techniques. (Military Acronym for Linear Involuntary Nuerological engagement) I know someone with Tyson's speed and power would simply catch a grappler coming in somewhere and bust him up to the point they would be disabled or unable to continue, Liddel included.

i agree, wrestlers and jiu jitsu guys would be a lot easier, they're as one dimensional in their own way as tyson is in his. but we're talking about an elite MMA fighter here, trained to minimize his exposure to punches and exploit his opponents weaknesses.

And I really like Liddel. Also, ya I'm biased, but biased towards Jeet Kune do, not boxing. Remember Jeet Kune do teaches " We favor formlessnes so we can assume all forms" Quote from Bruce Lee, so you would think I would support the MMA guy. Just haven't seen it happen at the elite level were talking here.

I will admit that the current Tyson isn't what he was and could possibly be taken by some of the Top MMA guys, no Shamrock. The Tyson of the eighties would go through the MMA like Germany went through Poland.

And MMA, the example of Bill Wallace was to show that one technique is all you need to dominate an event, if that technique is by far superior to a group of techniques.And no, all your other training outside of boxing was not wasted. I think it is very useful to learn as much as you can about every fighting style. Thus I studied Jeet kune do. I just feel that in the afformentioned case of Mike Tyson only a very, very special fighter with extraordinary talent in MMA would be able to handle his speed and power. Thus the Bruce Lee example.
I'd love to see a fight between Liddel and Tyson though. Just to see if I'm proven correct. It would be really fun to watch.

i agree with the value of specailizing, but i think you're overstating the case. and MMA fighters actually aren't training more techniques than most other martial artists, they're actually just training a pretty small collection of the MOST effective techiques from other styles - the best takedowns from the best takedown style (wrestling), the best kicks and infighting from the style with the best infighting (muay thai), the best groundfighting from the best groundfighting style (brazilian jiu jitsu), best leg locks from the best leg locking style (sambo), and yes, punches from the best punching style (boxing). and it's no accident we train this way, while there is some variation and specialization between different fighters, this mix has repeatedly been shown to be more efficient than any other. "take what is useful, abandon what is useless"

if it were possible to just train boxing and knock everybody out before they grab you, there would be a lot of people doing it. but that just ain't the way it is." but tyson is special" - he was special, a great fighter... but he ain't that special, nobody is. i don't even think he ever topped the pound for pound list, even at his peak, there were always guys considered better at other weights. but tyson had a very exciting style, that grabbed the publics imagination, and created a mythology of invincibility. even tho tyson has lost several times now (a couple of times to second rate fighters), this mythology remains entrenched in the minds of many who grew up in the eighties.

go to any of the boxing forums and ask where he ranks as one of the greats. you'd be amazed at how many fighters are ranked ahead of him, and in how many categories. he was special...but not that special.

I feel it would unfold like this. Liddel would be circling Tyson at a distance looking for an opening to get inside and take the fight to the ground. The problem is Tyson would know this was Liddel's only chance and be ready for such a tactic. And don't you think Tyson would have at least some preperation in how to counter this. Do we really think Tyson would not even look at any MMA fights to know what to expect. When Liddel made his move Tyson would unload a viscous punch somewhere on Liddel which would either knock him down or at least knock him off balance, where Tyson would move close enough to land the bomb which would end the fight.

i'm sure tyson would know what to expect. but knowing what someones game plan is, and having the tools to stop it are 2 different things. a lot of guys have known what game plan tyson had, but simply lacked the tools to stop it. he simply hasn't got the training in dealing with MMA style attacks and takedown defense to have more than a punchers chance against a top MMA fighter. thats the reality of the situation.

[MMA]

I've got over ten years knowledge of MMA Bro,

modern MMA hasn't even existed for 10 years. i don't doubt you have a lot of skills and knowledge from JKD, and their theory is very similar, but they never quite achieved what MMA did. matt thornton and the SBG guys are pretty good but they're pretty much following the standard MMA curricilum, not the traditional JKD training of the past 20 years.

what your not understanding is just how fast and skilled an elite boxer is.

others may not, but i do, and i still don't give tyson more than a punchers chance. i'm not saying he can't win, i'm just saying, odds are, a top MMA guy will be able to grab a leg or get a clinch even once, before tyson lands a knockout shot.

I agree that if two so called average people(whatever that is) train, one in MMA and the other in boxing, the MMA guy will have an advantage if they train for the same length of time. Again, as previously stated, boxers at the level Mike Tyson once was are so much more talented and skilled than the MMA guys it would be like watching a pro team against a division 2 college team. Thats what your not getting. If liddel tried to kick tyson he would leave himself wide open to getting clocked, and thats what would happen. If Tyson hit liddel anywhere, just knocked him off balance, its over. This would allow Tyson to get in safely and land the bomb. Liddels only chance would be to somewhow get inside and try to submit Tyson. If Liddel could navigate the mine field of bombs, most of which he'd never see, he might,and I say might in a very generous way, have a chance. But I just don't see it happening bro..

i see the argument you're trying to make here, but the fact is, several world class athletes, gold medalists in wrestling and judo, have tried MMA and they have been beaten by the top MMA guys until they cross trained extensively. although wrestling and judo aren't big in the US, they are worldwide Olympic sports, and are much more popular in many countries than boxing. and although they don't have quite as much "big money" behind them as boxing, they had extensive state support from being olympic sports, probably giving at least as much talent development as the dream of big money does for boxers in america. i don't have exact the exact numbers, but the talent pool is comparable.

the gigantic "talent gap" you're talking about simply no longer exists. 12 years ago, you might have been right, but not anymore. khalid ibrahim was at least as dominant as a wrestler a tyson was as a boxer. he absolutely MANHANDLED some of the best wrestlers in the world at the last olympics. for pure, functional, explosive strength, elite wrestlers are FREAKY strong, and he threw them around like ragdolls. he tried to jump into the big leagues without extensive cross training, and he got crushed. it's a different game now.

[MMA]

frank, i disagree with you, but i respect you and your opinion, and i appreciate the fact that you've been keeping things on the level they're on. a lot of guys would have let this degenerate into a name calling contest by now.

[FRANK WHITE]

frank, i disagree with you, but i respect you and your opinion, and i appreciate the fact that you've been keeping things on the level they're on. a lot of guys would have let this degenerate into a name calling contest by now.

I appreciate the above comment MMA. I also respect your opinion and especially how you break down everything into individual points and address each one. You do address each point of my view very well in a very thoughtful and intelligent way. And you may be right, although I will not admit that.

I definitely agree with you that MMA has come a long ways since the 80's, and it may be possible that the talent gap has closed enough that they have surpassed upper echelon boxers in fighting ability. In theory this should be the case, that is if you believe the principles of JKD, which I think we both do. And yes, I'm associating MMA with JKD because in my opinion they are very similar with the same goal, as you stated, "to use what works and discard the rest in order to make you the best fighter you can."

You know its easy to tell someone who has a backround in martial arts because they know how to control their words just as they do their actions, its easy to see that in you.

I just can't get over that while studying JKD I saw how Bruce Lee raised the bar of just how effective a few simple techniques can be. The fact that he always stated one must study the basics over and over again I feel will always be valid. Whether or not mastering five or so is more effective than being supremely superior in one is the backbone of my arguement. Do you take away from one skill, the level you can reach, by studying another. It is an interesting question when you really ponder it.

It would be fun though, wouldn't it, to see Liddel and Tyson go at it. It wouldn't last long, sorta like the mongoose and the snake, but you know it wouldn't be boring.

[MMA]

It would be fun though, wouldn't it, to see Liddel and Tyson go at it. It wouldn't last long, sorta like the mongoose and the snake, but you know it wouldn't be boring.

true enough, either way, it would be over quickly. either liddell get's the clinch/takedown, or tyson catces him solid coming in, and it's all over.

i trained JKD myself back in the day, and if you read Bruce's book, you realize he had the whole MMA gameplan mapped out. unfortunately, his students lost their way after his untimely death, and never took his ideas to their full potential.

[TestTubeBaby]

now who's biased? do you really think a 140 pound striker is going to outpunch or kick mike tyson, and knock him out? and you think he has better odds than a grappler who only need s to get a hold of you ONCE to finish you? to get a realistic appreciation of how hard it can be for a striker to stop a good grappler, you might want to read up on how badly bruce lost to judo gene lebell when they sparred.

yes, that specific 140 lber would be able to. gene lebell showed him up, because bruce was using grappling techniques. bruce would be in ANYONES face before they could think about it. he was the perfect blend of speed/quickness and power. bruce may not have been AS powerful with his punches as tyson, but they were lethal nonetheless. but bruce's KICKS are some of the NASTIEST things ive ever seen.

[BOUNCER]

read up on how badly bruce lost to judo gene lebell when they sparred.

Anywhere online I can read about it?. I'm having a debate in my Judo club about strikers-V-Judo players.

[FRANK WHITE]

true enough, either way, it would be over quickly. either liddell get's the clinch/takedown, or tyson catces him solid coming in, and it's all over.

i trained JKD myself back in the day, and if you read Bruce's book, you realize he had the whole MMA gameplan mapped out. unfortunately, his students lost their way after his untimely death, and never took his ideas to their full potential.

Very true. Bruce's goal was basically what the MMA is today. You've got different fighters with different strengths and weaknesses going at each other. Bruce always believed the only way to find out if a technique worked was to try it out on the streets in real life situations. This got him in a little trouble early in his career.

The idea that Bruce's senior students lost their way is something which Cycleon, myself and others discussed fairly extensively in another thread. A lot of schools, including Dan Inasonto's in L.A. have morphed into concept schools which have become somewhat commercialized. I feel Dan is trying his best, however, to remain as true as possible and remain financially viable, to Bruce's principles.

Liddell vs. Bruce would be a hell of a fight, Bruce by K.O. as would Bruce vs Tyson, Bruce by no mas after Tyson got tired of chasing him around the ring and getting hit in the process. So in this case I would have to go with Bruce. And yes I'm very biased concerning Bruce and his abilities. I feel Bruce was the Mozart of Martial Arts, as Tyson once was in boxing. Both had such extreme physical talent that they must be analyzed individually, as they fit into only their own catagory, far above all others.

The Gene Lebell thing was more of a publicity stunt than anything else. I've read before that it was staged because If I'm correct Labell was the star at the time and he had to look good. Plus he was trying to promote the judo, grappling style. I definitely know that Labell stated many times that Bruce Lee was the most talented Martial Artist he's ever seen, and they worked together several times, even becoming good friends.

[MMA]

Very true. Bruce's goal was basically what the MMA is today. You've got different fighters with different strengths and weaknesses going at each other. Bruce always believed the only way to find out if a technique worked was to try it out on the streets in real life situations. This got him in a little trouble early in his career.

The idea that Bruce's senior students lost their way is something which Cycleon, myself and others discussed fairly extensively in another thread. A lot of schools, including Dan Inasonto's in L.A. have morphed into concept schools which have become somewhat commercialized. I feel Dan is trying his best, however, to remain as true as possible and remain financially viable, to Bruce's principles.

Liddell vs. Bruce would be a hell of a fight, Bruce by K.O. as would Bruce vs Tyson, Bruce by no mas after Tyson got tired of chasing him around the ring and getting hit in the process. So in this case I would have to go with Bruce. And yes I'm very biased concerning Bruce and his abilities. I feel Bruce was the Mozart of Martial Arts, as Tyson once was in boxing. Both had such extreme physical talent that they must be analyzed individually, as they fit into only their own catagory, far above all others.

The Gene Lebell thing was more of a publicity stunt than anything else. I've read before that it was staged because If I'm correct Labell was the star at the time and he had to look good. Plus he was trying to promote the judo, grappling style. I definitely know that Labell stated many times that Bruce Lee was the most talented Martial Artist he's ever seen, and they worked together several times, even becoming good friends.

i'll try to dig up a link with the details, but i highly doubt it was a publicity stunt. bruce seriously tried to spar top martial artists from other styles, to learn the strengths and weaknesses of their styles. after sparring lebell, he gained great respect for lebells ability, and started to emphasize takedown defense, and groundwork escapes more. these are not the actions of someone who was effortlessly able to avoid the takedown attempts of a top grappler.

bruce is also not the type of guy to risk the credibility of his ideas on a "publicity stunt" for another guy. it seems much more likely to me that he was simply sparring with an expert in another style, and (like so many other elite strikers), he was surprised at how easy it is for a grappler to get a clinch, and then modified his training accordingly. also, in his defense, lebell was MUCH larger than he was.

funny gene lebell story - he tried to start MMA 30 years ago in a match against a top ranked heavyweight boxer. the boxer didn't want to risk his career with a leg injury, so he requested no leglocks. in exchange, gene asked him to wear heavy clothing - a full gi that would help gene get his grips. the boxer showed up in a gi..covered in 3 inches of vaseline it was a long ugly bout, but eventually lebell was able to secure a takedown and choke

[MMA]

Very true. Bruce's goal was basically what the MMA is today. You've got different fighters with different strengths and weaknesses going at each other. Bruce always believed the only way to find out if a technique worked was to try it out on the streets in real life situations. This got him in a little trouble early in his career.

The idea that Bruce's senior students lost their way is something which Cycleon, myself and others discussed fairly extensively in another thread. A lot of schools, including Dan Inasonto's in L.A. have morphed into concept schools which have become somewhat commercialized. I feel Dan is trying his best, however, to remain as true as possible and remain financially viable, to Bruce's principles.

Liddell vs. Bruce would be a hell of a fight, Bruce by K.O. as would Bruce vs Tyson, Bruce by no mas after Tyson got tired of chasing him around the ring and getting hit in the process. So in this case I would have to go with Bruce. And yes I'm very biased concerning Bruce and his abilities. I feel Bruce was the Mozart of Martial Arts, as Tyson once was in boxing. Both had such extreme physical talent that they must be analyzed individually, as they fit into only their own catagory, far above all others.

The Gene Lebell thing was more of a publicity stunt than anything else. I've read before that it was staged because If I'm correct Labell was the star at the time and he had to look good. Plus he was trying to promote the judo, grappling style. I definitely know that Labell stated many times that Bruce Lee was the most talented Martial Artist he's ever seen, and they worked together several times, even becoming good friends.

it wasn't the commercialization that killed JKD, it was so many people blatantly ignoring his basic principles. "take what is useful, abandon what is not." everyone remembered the first part, but not the the second. JKD became more and more a collection of "useful techniques", instead of a systematic grouping of the "best techniques". and if you're training "good techniques" and your opponents are training only the "best and most efficeint techniques", you're at a serious disadvantage.

i've seen JKD schools where they taught a kali "destruction", to set up a "straight blast" entering technique, to get you into wing chun "trapping range" to set up your muay thai elbows and knees. this is not a joke, this was actally the heart of their system! the trapping alone took years to master. half the time devoted to just doing Muay Thai would have made them twice as effective.

if they were continually testing and refining it by sparring, the way he wanted them to, they would have ended up with something that looked a hell of a lot more like modern MMA than some of the crap they were doing in the 80s. you would be amazed at how quickly a modern MMA school can turn a dedicated athlete into a genuinely dangerous opponent, by only teaching the most effective techniques. it's just not that hard to teach people how to fight effectively.

[FRANK WHITE]

i'll try to dig up a link with the details, but i highly doubt it was a publicity stunt. bruce seriously tried to spar top martial artists from other styles, to learn the strengths and weaknesses of their styles. after sparring lebell, he gained great respect for lebells ability, and started to emphasize takedown defense, and groundwork escapes more. these are not the actions of someone who was effortlessly able to avoid the takedown attempts of a top grappler.

bruce is also not the type of guy to risk the credibility of his ideas on a "publicity stunt" for another guy. it seems much more likely to me that he was simply sparring with an expert in another style, and (like so many other elite strikers), he was surprised at how easy it is for a grappler to get a clinch, and then modified his training accordingly. also, in his defense, lebell was MUCH larger than he was.

funny gene lebell story - he tried to start MMA 30 years ago in a match against a top ranked heavyweight boxer. the boxer didn't want to risk his career with a leg injury, so he requested no leglocks. in exchange, gene asked him to wear heavy clothing - a full gi that would help gene get his grips. the boxer showed up in a gi..covered in 3 inches of vaseline it was a long ugly bout, but eventually lebell was able to secure a takedown and choke

I'd like to hear more about the Gene Lebell thing. I've heard both versions, depending on who I was talking to. I do know that Bruce respected Lebell very much and this makes the non publicity stunt very plausible.

Good story about Labell against the boxer. I've never doubted an MMA guys ability to take on and defeat a pro boxer. But again, I don't view an in shape Tyson or a In his prime George Foreman as ordinary boxers. My fascination with power may have something to do with this.

[FRANK WHITE]

[QUOTE=MMA]it wasn't the commercialization that killed JKD, it was so many people blatantly ignoring his basic principles. "take what is useful, abandon what is not." everyone remembered the first part, but not the the second. JKD became more and more a collection of "useful techniques", instead of a systematic grouping of the "best techniques". and if you're training "good techniques" and your opponents are training only the "best and most efficeint techniques", you're at a serious disadvantage.

I think part of the reason many JKD concept schools stuck with the useful techniques instead of the best was because thats what attracted students. A lot of the fancy hollywood flying kicks look great, but not practical in a real life situation. Very good point about using only the best and most efficient techniques. Definitely what Bruce would have wanted and part of his philosophy.

[FRANK WHITE]

i've seen JKD schools where they taught a kali "destruction", to set up a "straight blast" entering technique, to get you into wing chun "trapping range" to set up your muay thai elbows and knees. this is not a joke, this was actally the heart of their system! the trapping alone took years to master. half the time devoted to just doing Muay Thai would have made them twice as effective.

if they were continually testing and refining it by sparring, the way he wanted them to, they would have ended up with something that looked a hell of a lot more like modern MMA than some of the crap they were doing in the 80s. you would be amazed at how quickly a modern MMA school can turn a dedicated athlete into a genuinely dangerous opponent, by only teaching the most effective techniques. it's just not that hard to teach people how to fight effectively.[/QUOTE]

Part of the reason many of the schools used more complicated, longer to master, and in the short run, less efficient techniques is they actually believed the more you are exposed to the more you can take with you. Some of it may also have been that for a while JKD got overcomplicated and bombarded students with to many styles and techniques, thus getting away from traditional Gung Fu/Wing Chun farther and further.

I have no doubt the modern MMA schools are very effective in their effecient teaching approach. At times many schools get caught up a little to much in tradition and not enough in what works. But thats part of the spirit of Martial Arts in many schools isn't it. Bruce got critisized a lot for abandoning tradition and doing what you stated above, what works. I feel MMA tends to favor the gladiator approach more. By necessity no doubt. Simply because it works.

[BlueAndromeda73]

I would go with shamrock, if he took tyson down thats pretty much it.

[Cyto78]

First, what boxers would admit they would get dominated in an MMA event?

Second, name one MMA fighter who is faster and more powerful as an in shape Tyson.

Ya, I could imagine Tyson on the side of the octagon. It would be the other guy you should worry about.

No disrespect to MMA guys. There tough as hell and could seriously hurt any normal person. But an in shape Tyson if far from a normal person. If I can KO a wrestler, grappler, and on more than one occasion, a jui jitsu specialist, with mainly just L.I.N.E techniques. (Military Acronym for Linear Involuntary Nuerological engagement) I know someone with Tyson's speed and power would simply catch a grappler coming in somewhere and bust him up to the point they would be disabled or unable to continue, Liddel included. And I really like Liddel. Also, ya I'm biased, but biased towards Jeet Kune do, not boxing. Remember Jeet Kune do teaches " We favor formlessnes so we can assume all forms" Quote from Bruce Lee, so you would think I would support the MMA guy. Just haven't seen it happen at the elite level were talking here.

I will admit that the current Tyson isn't what he was and could possibly be taken by some of the Top MMA guys, no Shamrock. The Tyson of the eighties would go through the MMA like Germany went through Poland.

And MMA, the example of Bill Wallace was to show that one technique is all you need to dominate an event, if that technique is by far superior to a group of techniques.

And no, all your other training outside of boxing was not wasted. I think it is very useful to learn as much as you can about every fighting style. Thus I studied Jeet kune do. I just feel that in the afformentioned case of Mike Tyson only a very, very special fighter with extraordinary talent in MMA would be able to handle his speed and power. Thus the Bruce Lee example.
I'd love to see a fight between Liddel and Tyson though. Just to see if I'm proven correct. It would be really fun to watch.

I feel it would unfold like this. Liddel would be circling Tyson at a distance looking for an opening to get inside and take the fight to the ground. The problem is Tyson would know this was Liddel's only chance and be ready for such a tactic. And don't you think Tyson would have at least some preperation in how to counter this. Do we really think Tyson would not even look at any MMA fights to know what to expect. When Liddel made his move Tyson would unload a viscous punch somewhere on Liddel which would either knock him down or at least knock him off balance, where Tyson would move close enough to land the bomb which would end the fight.

Bro you are a pretty funny dude.....I would much rather this discussion be about Holyfield....**** Tyson.....Tyson can not simply watch a tape and be prepared for an MMA type fighter...you are way off....LMFAO.....who in the **** have you seen Tyson destroy as of late and what big name fighters did he destroy in the past....bro Boxing in a boxing ring is completely different than fighting a MMA tourny....you say you have 10 years exp....I just dont see it......stick Tyson in the Octagon,K-1,Pride any of it and he will will have little chance...The MMA fighters are who could watch a Tyson tape and be prepared for what he brings not vise versa.....Strikes alone will not dominate everthing all the time....period....another thing is bro Tyson is not going to rush in and exspose himself to being grounded...so what is he to do.......dude Tysons legs would buckle in a matter of no time with thunderous kicks coming in.....he would get rocked be it by kicks or ground and pound......I think I would rather see a powerful grappler man handle his ****ing ass ground and pound him.....either way ground and pound or stay on the outside and brutal kicks would bring him down fast.......all he can do is punch....that being said he can't punch to well against a fighter that is throwing mad kicks at him from the outside and if he did attempt to get in close that could be a mistake cause it would risk him being snatched up......Tyson isnt KO'ing anybody these days....Bro id like to see Mighty MO in K-1 ko Tyson's ass with one punch.....Bro you talk as if Tyson is not human.....many many fighters that can only strike against Tyson take his punches and also beat him....powerful leg kicks is all a fighter would need to bring Tyson down if for some reason they also didnt want to attempt a take down...I still say Shamrock would beat him and Liddell would ****ing own him.......

[FRANK WHITE]

Bro you are absolutely the funniest ass person I have ever heard.....I would much rather this discussion be about Holyfield....**** Tyson.....Tyson can not simply watch a tape and be prepared for an MMA type fighter...you are way off....LMFAO.....who in the **** have you seen Tyson destroy as of late and what big name fighters did he destroy in the past....bro Boxing in a boxing ring is completely different than fighting a MMA tourny....you say you have 10 years exp....I just dont see it......stick Tyson in the Octagon,K-1,Pride any of it and he will will have little chance...The MMA fighters are who could watch a Tyson tape and be prepared for what he brings not vise versa.....Strikes alone will not dominate everthing all the time....period....another thing is bro Tyson is not going to rush in and exspose himself to being grounded...so what is he to do.......dude Tysons legs would buckle in a matter of no time with thunderous kicks coming in.....he would get rocked be it by kicks or ground and pound......I think I would rather see a powerful grappler man handle his ****ing ass ground and pound him.....either way ground and pound or stay on the outside and brutal kicks would bring him down fast....He will not go in for a clinch against an MMA fighter.......all he can do is punch....thats it bro...do you not realize this......Tyson isnt KO'ing anybody these days....Bro id like to see Mighty MO in K-1 ko Tyson's ass with one punch.....Bro you talk ass if Tyson is not human.....many many fighters that can only strike against Tyson take his punches and also beat him....powerful leg kicks is all a fighter would need to bring Tyson down if for some reason they also didnt want to attempt a take down...I still say Shamrock would beat him and Liddell would ****ing own him.......

You made a lot of statements without anything to back them up Cyto. Why don't you read all the posts instead of just a few lines before babbling some BS. It makes you sound like your some individual who saw the Rock on TV and thinks Wrestlemania is the greatest thing on earth. Now is that funny. I hope so. I'm glad I could entertain you. So why am I so ****in funny huh, am I a comedian. (Couldn't resist that Goodfellas(Joe Pesci) line. Shamrock couldn't even beat Franklin whoever now, and you think he could beat an in shape Tyson. You overestimate grapplers bro, read all the posts from myself and MMA and make an educated aurguement. I'll respect that. What I won't respect is someone talking a lot of smack with no plausible aurguement to back it up. I've been involved with Martial Arts since the late eighties. I think that gives me the right to make an educated aurguement. Which I think I have. So actually you are right, I don't have ten years experience, I have almost twenty, albeit a significant chunk of that was with the Devil Dogs.

I've stated that some of the MMA guys might have a small chance against an in shape Tyson, but the K1 guys! You think Bob Sapp could beat him? If you do I don't think I need to say anymore. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Bob Sapp one of the elite K1 guys?

Before I even got involved with JKD I used a military system of fighting(L.I.N.E.) to beat a lot of fighters from grapplers to Mua Thai, etc, in several different countries. Sorry, but it wasn't that hard. And these guys were so called traditionalists from the Philipines, Japan, and Indonesia.

When you respond and I'm sure you will, come at me with a plausible aurguement and I'll listen. Remember to get respect you have to show respect. A very simple but often overlooked thing.

[cdogge]

think about it...if shamrock took him down...then what...punch him in the face for about an hour and a half...ok....then tyson gets up and gives him a light jab to the dome and shatters ken's face....ken might actually die

[MMA]

think about it...if shamrock took him down...then what...punch him in the face for about an hour and a half...ok....then tyson gets up and gives him a light jab to the dome and shatters ken's face....ken might actually die

the only problem with that is how does tyson get up? tyson simply does not have the tools to escape from a high level grappler in a dominant position. once ken secures the clinch/takedown, he can keep him down and keep pounding away for as long as it takes. why stop at half an hour? mike can't do anything to stop him on the ground.

although realisticly, ken would probably be able to secure an armbar or choke long before then, even if tyson was completely impervious to punches.

[FRANK WHITE]

Gentleman, I've stated my position on this subject, and I stand by it. An in shape Tyson takes out Shamrock easily and Liddel perhaps not so easily. If you disagree I respect that. Its obvious were not going to change each others opinions so as we've already stated, we'll respectfully agree to disagree. There's only one way to really find out and I don't think that will ever happen.

If Tyson was forced to wear boxing gloves I might change my opinion. But with the MMA size gloves you increase Tyson's power and speed by two to three times. Shamrock or Liddell coming in would be like walking through getting hit by a sledgehammer. I don't care how good their takedowns are. If you believe a person can walk through getting hit be a sledgehammer and still function well enough to secure a hold on someone as strong as Tyson well then theres nothing else to say on my end. There one bad MF'er.

One of Sifu Dan Inasonto's favorite sayings was "Always remember, you can teach a german shepard to do anything, attack, heal, anything. But no matter how much you teach him if you lock him in a room with a Pit Bull the untrained Pit Bull will kill him.
Don't ever forget that." Obviously the point being that there are just some people out there who you don't wan't to mess with, no matter how much training you have. An in shape Tyson is one of those people.

Those who say Tyson has lost it, etc. are partially right. Since Don King became his manager in 88 he has went downhill. If he would have stayed with the team he had things would have been a lot different. He's still very dangerous, not superhuman, just very dangerous. Subtract the padded gloves and his power and speed becomes only greater.

[FRANK WHITE]

Shamrock wouldn't even see the punch that left him brain damaged.

Thank you Bouncer! In opinions so far its 2-1 favoring Tyson MMA, by people with Martial Arts,, MMA, fighting backrounds, etc.

I don't know about others with fighting experience but feel free to identify yourselves.

[FRANK WHITE]

You have to understand its the same thing as if you put boxing gloves on Shamrock and told him to box Tyson.Shamrock would get KOed in 5 seconds.

Now if Tyson(in his prime) had a year to prepare for a MMA fight,learned to avoid submissions and worked non stop on his sprawl,he would be one of the most dominating MMA fighters in the world.[/QUOTE]

This arguement I respect. Brief but well thought out and logical. I don't have to agree with it but it I can respect it.

[FRANK WHITE]

Although I'm not a professional boxer, I'm a very experienced boxer and kickboxer and I can tell you (as I said earlier) Ken wouldn't see the punch that left him brain damaged. Forget fighting Mike on the ground or in a clinch, Ken would still have to come in Mikes boxing circle and I'm pretty sure he'd finish Ken off pretty easy. Might be my confidence as a boxer talking, but I could pretty much take a non boxer (right terminology?) apart PDQ.

DITTO!

[FRANK WHITE]

i dont want to get into a long debate about this cause everone has their own opinion and everyone makes alot of good points but...i happen to promote fights for a living, and knowing just about all the boxers you can think of and many ufc and cage guys, i can tell you this. there is not one cage fighter or ufc guy in the world that can take a punch from a heavyweight. im not saying that the're not tough. im not saying that they are not unbelievable athletes. they are. im just stating fact. i also keep hearing the same thing from the ufc side. everyone seems to think its all over if you can get a boxer to the ground. you really think tyson or moorer or any of those guys have never been in a street fight. you think they cant fight on the ground? come on. anyway its just my opinion.

Nice read from someone who knows fighting!

[catabolic kid]

This is the bottom line: There is a much greater probability that Tyson can land one punch before Ken (who does not have good takedowns) can take him down.

[FRANK WHITE]

This is the bottom line: There is a much greater probability that Tyson can land one punch before Ken (who does not have good takedowns) can take him down.

Agreed Catabolic! That is the bottom line.

[MMA]

i dont want to get into a long debate

i don't mind a lengthy debate, as long as the people act like gentlemen, the way we are doing here.

about this cause everone has their own opinion and everyone makes alot of good points but...i happen to promote fights for a living, and knowing just about all the boxers you can think of and many ufc and cage guys, i can tell you this. there is not one cage fighter or ufc guy in the world that can take a punch from a heavyweight. im not saying that the're not tough. im not saying that they are not unbelievable athletes. they are. im just stating fact.

i can kind of see where you're coming from, but the fact is no heavyweight boxer can take a perfect punch from another heavyweight boxer either. they're prettty much all powerful enough to put you out if their best punch lands right, no matter who you are. my estimate is purely based on playing the percentages, and personal experience. any serious heavyweight can take out anybody if he lands flush enough, but the fact is these guys repeatedly throw hundreds of punches and fail to knock out their opponents. they end up in numerous clinches in the meantime. against guys who don't have any specialized skills at bridging into a clinch, and in fact aren't even trying to clinch. it's just an easy situation to end up in. how many clinches did you see in Ruiz/Toney? any one of them would have been the ended the fight in MMA.


also, a couple of points of fact - ray mercer, a man with a legedary chin, recently survived 3 rounds with klitcko. he was knocked out in about 10 seconds by a kickboxer in K1. francois botha, who clowned tyson for a few rounds before getting caught, has been repeatedly beaten by 2nd rate k1 fighters. klitchko himself was KOed my a modern elite kickboxer, when he tried to kickbox early in his career. this doesn't directly relate to our question, but several K1 fighters have converted to MMA, and have had soe success, but only with extensive crosstraining. it was not simply a matter of walking in and knocking evetyone out. jens pulver and several other MMA fighters also have winning records as professional boxers.

i also keep hearing the same thing from the ufc side. everyone seems to think its all over if you can get a boxer to the ground. you really think tyson or moorer or any of those guys have never been in a street fight. you think they cant fight on the ground? come on. anyway its just my opinion.

i'm sure the top boxers would tear ass on the ground against regular guys, but not against world class grapplers, they would do about as well as ken shamrock in a boxing match with a top pro. do you really think a boxer sould stand a chance against a world class wrestler on the ground after a takedown? no chance.

[1819]

in mercers defense, he was 43 yrs old when he got in there and botha, well not exactly a world class boxer in my opinion. anyway it is fun to debate, especially with guys who know what they're talking about. i played hockey for a living and now i promote fights. let me tell you something, alot of the boxers always clown with me and tell me what a tough guy i am for surviving 4 yrs in the bigs. not true. of all the sports and training ive ever done, i can tell you that the fight game is by far the toughest. at 38 i can still go out and skate up a storm with the best of them. put me in the ring for 3 rounds and im looking for my mom to bail me out. anyone that steps in that ring or octagon is a man. pure and simple. i hope all you guys that are fighting, in either sport reach all your goals and most importantly, stay healthy, well, as healthy possible. lol.

[MMA]

in mercers defense, he was 43 yrs old when he got in there and botha, well not exactly a world class boxer in my opinion. anyway it is fun to debate, especially with guys who know what they're talking about. i played hockey for a living and now i promote fights. let me tell you something, alot of the boxers always clown with me and tell me what a tough guy i am for surviving 4 yrs in the bigs. not true. of all the sports and training ive ever done, i can tell you that the fight game is by far the toughest. at 38 i can still go out and skate up a storm with the best of them. put me in the ring for 3 rounds and im looking for my mom to bail me out. anyone that steps in that ring or octagon is a man. pure and simple. i hope all you guys that are fighting, in either sport reach all your goals and most importantly, stay healthy, well, as healthy possible. lol.

thank you for your kind words. and you're very correct that mercer is old, and a shadow of his former self. thats why i was just making the comparison surviving 3 rounds with vitale, one of the hardest hitters in the division, and his quick KO in in K1, because they both happened around the same time frame. thats why i didn't bring up the way vince philips (former champ, beat kostya tzu) got smoked in K1, because he was definitely over the hill. the botha beatings bear directly on our topic, because when he fought tyson, he seriously outboxed and clowned tyson for a few rounds, before tyson caught him (with a BEAUTIFUL punch out of nowhere). botha also ended up in several clinches with tyson too BTW.

if the top K1 fighters (some of whom have crosstrained and transitioned into MMA, and have very solid grappling skills - cro cop) are demonstrably BETTER than fighters like Botha (who actually outboxed tyson for a few rounds, and lasted long enough to get several clinches), it's hard to argue that they couldn't at least survive long enough to clinch ONCE.

i'm not putting down boxing, it's a great base, and my boxing skills allow me to dominate every time we're in punching range. but the most effective punchers in MMA are the guys who have the skills to give them more opportuniteis to punch - takedown defense and bottom game.

[MMA]

let me tell you something, alot of the boxers always clown with me and tell me what a tough guy i am for surviving 4 yrs in the bigs. not true. of all the sports and training ive ever done, i can tell you that the fight game is by far the toughest.

you played pro hockey? any war stories you can share without violating your privacy?

[Cyto78]

[QUOTE=FRANK WHITE]
One of Sifu Dan Inasonto's favorite sayings was "Always remember, you can teach a german shepard to do anything, attack, heal, anything. But no matter how much you teach him if you lock him in a room with a Pit Bull the untrained Pit Bull will kill him.
Don't ever forget that." Obviously the point being that there are just some people out there who you don't wan't to mess with, no matter how much training you have. An in shape Tyson is one of those people.


If your implying Tyson is like the pitbull in your statement then MMA fighters are the Tosa INU or the Presa Canario's of the fighting world.....dogs that would make short work of a Pitbull....granted the pitbull does have a slight chance because of its powerful jaws its still very slim!!So yes there are some people you just don't mess with and MMA fighters are those people as well as Tyson if your just a normal guy kinda like your German Shepard......but if you are at the top of your game in MMA simular to the Tosa or Canary dogs are in the dog world than you can dominate even the mighty Tyson!!

[cdogge]

is this really still a debate?....holy shit....ken got beat a couple weeks ago by some damn redneck fag from the south side of arkansas....and you guys think he can beat mike tyson....In a street fight tyson would be a freakin monster...We already know he will do anything to try and win a fight....damn tyson would F*ck the mother *****er up....

[FRANK WHITE]

[QUOTE=Cyto78]

One of Sifu Dan Inasonto's favorite sayings was "Always remember, you can teach a german shepard to do anything, attack, heal, anything. But no matter how much you teach him if you lock him in a room with a Pit Bull the untrained Pit Bull will kill him.
Don't ever forget that." Obviously the point being that there are just some people out there who you don't wan't to mess with, no matter how much training you have. An in shape Tyson is one of those people.


If your implying Tyson is like the pitbull in your statement then MMA fighters are the Tosa INU or the Presa Canario's of the fighting world.....dogs that would make short work of a Pitbull....granted the pitbull does have a slight chance because of its powerful jaws its still very slim!!So yes there are some people you just don't mess with and MMA fighters are those people as well as Tyson if your just a normal guy kinda like your German Shepard......but if you are at the top of your game in MMA simular to the Tosa or Canary dogs are in the dog world than you can dominate even the mighty Tyson!!

Alright Cyto, I give up. I'm not gonna argue with you anymore. All I have to say is that I have the utmost respect for all fighters, MMA, boxers, etc. All of the top guys in both sports would be devastating, as you said, to an average joe.

Thats funny you mentioned the Tosa and the canary dogs. I almost bought a Tosa once, I wanted a dog few people had which could take care of itself if needed, against any dog. I also read a lot about both the Tosa and the canary dogs of the canary Islands right. Tosa is from Japan. The thing is, I guess we can't agree on anything, but its all good fun bro, is that all the books I read on fighting dogs stated the Pit bull was the top fighting dog, giving examples of how they defeated Tosa's in fights. The Tosas were baddass, but were just to slow the books stated. They never really mentioned any specific examples of a Canary Dog vs. a Pit Bull, but most of them stated the canary dog was an awesome dog almost as good as the Pit Bull. Just what I read bro. No actual experience whatsoever. And I definitely don't believe in fighting dogs, I'm way to much of an animal lover. They were both really cool looking dogs. The Tosa was ****ing huge. It looked like a huge Pit Bull, and the Canary dog just looked mean as hell.

What got me into looking for a baddass dog was that my Rottweiler got his ass kicked at the Laurel Canyon and Mulholland dog park in L.A. by a Great Dane. I was pissed. The guy who owned the Great Dane was a real prick and didn't even apologize. I almost beat his ass, but didn't. Instead I researched all the dogs, thus learning about the Tosa and the Canary Dog, and a few others. No matter what I read though, the Pit Bull, at least in these books, came out on top. So thats what I bought. I have no regrets whatsoever, a great dog who is absolutely loyal to her owner, and very protective. Peace man!

[Cyto78]

Alright Cyto, I give up. I'm not gonna argue with you anymore. All I have to say is that I have the utmost respect for all fighters, MMA, boxers, etc. All of the top guys in both sports would be devastating, as you said, to an average joe.

Thats funny you mentioned the Tosa and the canary dogs. I almost bought a Tosa once, I wanted a dog few people had which could take care of itself if needed, against any dog. I also read a lot about both the Tosa and the canary dogs of the canary Islands right. Tosa is from Japan. The thing is, I guess we can't agree on anything, but its all good fun bro, is that all the books I read on fighting dogs stated the Pit bull was the top fighting dog, giving examples of how they defeated Tosa's in fights. The Tosas were baddass, but were just to slow the books stated. They never really mentioned any specific examples of a Canary Dog vs. a Pit Bull, but most of them stated the canary dog was an awesome dog almost as good as the Pit Bull. Just what I read bro. No actual experience whatsoever. And I definitely don't believe in fighting dogs, I'm way to much of an animal lover. They were both really cool looking dogs. The Tosa was ****ing huge. It looked like a huge Pit Bull, and the Canary dog just looked mean as hell.

What got me into looking for a baddass dog was that my Rottweiler got his ass kicked at the Laurel Canyon and Mulholland dog park in L.A. by a Great Dane. I was pissed. The guy who owned the Great Dane was a real prick and didn't even apologize. I almost beat his ass, but didn't. Instead I researched all the dogs, thus learning about the Tosa and the Canary Dog, and a few others. No matter what I read though, the Pit Bull, at least in these books, came out on top. So thats what I bought. I have no regrets whatsoever, a great dog who is absolutely loyal to her owner, and very protective. Peace man!

You still made a good purchase with the Pit......Pitbulls are awesome!!All three the Tosa,Canary and the Pit are the best in the world at fighting..... it is a waste of a beautiful dog though if you are to fight them as many do.Both the Tosa and the Canary dog are massive....it is actually the Canary dog that looks like a huge pitbull with a head and jaws that are almost twice that of a pit.To bad about your Rott...I would of thought otherwise in that encounter with the Great Dane.Oh well I don't see that ever happening if your pit was to meet up with the Dane......yeah bro all this debating is just in fun...I also have the utmost respect for all fighters even the mighty Tyson himself.