Too Much Protein=Bad

[1buffsob]

It's a fact. Simple physiology. Excess waste from high protein is removed via water consumption.

And to me, high protein is 2.5g per lb of LBM. I see no point in ever going higher. I personally believe high protein diets are over-rated. But this is an opinion, coming more from trial and error than anything else.

[usualsuspect]

It's a fact. Simple physiology. Excess waste from high protein is removed via water consumption.

And to me, high protein is 2.5g per lb of LBM. I see no point in ever going higher. I personally believe high protein diets are over-rated. But this is an opinion, coming more from trial and error than anything else.

Buff,
I can't argue with your statement but let me add to it.

Although excess waste from high protein is removed via water consumption, it also releases insulin . Excess protein is converted to sugar in the body (gluconeogenesis). It is a double hit: high insulin release from excess protein and conversion of the excess to sugar which raises insulin further. The protein-derived sugar that cannot be burned or stored (and very little can be stored in the liver and muscle) becomes fat. This makes the excess protein have a triple hit because that fat makes one more insulin resistant.

Ppl on high protein have insulin levels that are soaring usually become insulin resistant (as is the case with many bb'ers). Excess protein intake is almost as sure a prescription for insulin resistance as excess carbohydrate intake. Which as we know, is not good.

[DNoMac]

Excess waste caused by protein consumption can easliy be taken care of by drikning water.

What you failed to mention is that the urea and nitrogen are excreted via Urine.

Meaning drink water and the waste is removed. Quite simple.

*Takes large gulp of water*

[BrokenBricks]

This is what happens when people think they can make quantitative arguments out of qualitative logic.

[brutesinme]

Fasting is good for cleaning your body from toxins, like a 2 or more day fast. It also clears your mind, strengthens your willpower, and enhances your spirituality which in turn makes you happier

I'm curious as to how fasting cleans your body of toxins. Your body already has a very efficient detox filter, it's called your liver. There is no evidence to the effect that stopping eating has a physical effect on "toxins" that you have ingested. In fact, some energy is needed to keep your liver running at it's top level. I have no arguement with the latter 3 points, just that first one.

[1buffsob]

Buff,
I can't argue with your statement but let me add to it.

Although excess waste from high protein is removed via water consumption, it also releases insulin . Excess protein is converted to sugar in the body (gluconeogenesis). It is a double hit: high insulin release from excess protein and conversion of the excess to sugar which raises insulin further. The protein-derived sugar that cannot be burned or stored (and very little can be stored in the liver and muscle) becomes fat. This makes the excess protein have a triple hit because that fat makes one more insulin resistant.

Ppl on high protein have insulin levels that are soaring usually become insulin resistant (as is the case with many bb'ers). Excess protein intake is almost as sure a prescription for insulin resistance as excess carbohydrate intake. Which as we know, is not good.

Do you have any idea on exactly how much protein is converted to glucose?

Gannon reported on the glucose appearance rate over 8 hours following the ingestion of 50 g protein in the form of very lean beef compared to water in subjects with mild type 2 diabetes.

After water alone, the plasma glucose concentration decreased from 6.7 mmol/l (120 mg/dl) to 5.4 mmol/l (98 mg/dl). After 50 g of protein, the glucose concentration at 1 hour increased by 0.1 mmol/L (3 mg/dl) and then decreased similarly to water. The ingested protein resulted in only ~2 g glucose being produced and released into the circulation.

Gannon MC, Damberg G, Gupta V, Nuttall FQ: Ingested protein has little effect on glucose concentration or rate of glucose appearance in people with type 2 diabetes [Abstract]. J Am Coll Nutr 18:546 (Abstract no. 97), 1999.

Granted, the study was for people with mild type 2 diabetes. So how about a controlled study by Conn and Newburgh? The study reported no effect on blood glucose levels after a meal containing a large amount of protein in the form of lean beef. Fifteen subjects with diabetes and three control subjects without diabetes were fed breakfasts of glucose or carbohydrate or protein foods calculated to yield equal amounts of glucose (2 g protein/kg compared to 1 g carbohydrate/kg).

The blood glucose response after carbohydrate or glucose was as expected. However, there was no increase in blood glucose levels after the protein meal even though there was a consistent rise in blood urea nitrogen indicating protein utilization.

Conn JW, Newburgh LH: The glycemic response to isoglucogenic quantities of protein and carbohydrate. J Clin Invest 15:667-71, 1936.

That pretty much disproves your first two points. So how about insulin resistance? When comparing insulin response to protein vs carbohydrate, who comes out ahead?

I'll finish my points when I get back. Right now, I must eat excess protein then go lift.

[usualsuspect]

Wow you clearly missed my point. It went right over your head.

I never said anything comparing the insulin response of carbohydrates to that of protein (excess or not).

The studies you posted are great, really....just not relevant to this conversation (or argument...which you're somehow turning this into).

BTW you're one study is from 1936

[1buffsob]

Wow you clearly missed my point. It went right over your head.

I never said anything comparing the insulin response of carbohydrates to that of protein (excess or not).

The studies you posted are great, really....just not relevant to this conversation (or argument...which you're somehow turning this into).

BTW you're one study is from 1936

I'm sorry, but did you not state..

It is true "excess" protein turns into fat.....Eating more protein doesn't mean that protein is what you get when the body is through with it. A lot of it will go into fat.

And..

The protein-derived sugar that cannot be burned or stored (and very little can be stored in the liver and muscle) becomes fat.

You don't find the fact that very little protein is ever turned into glucose to be relevant to those statements??

Maybe I did miss your point. I'm not trying to turn this into an argument. This is meant to be a intelligent discussion. Don't take it personally. So, if you would please clarify, so your posts no longer go over my head, what is you point?

And yes, one of the studys I cited was from 1936, the other from 1999. If you like, I will post more recent studys.

[usualsuspect]

First, one of the problems with the studies you posted is that we don't know what they're energy expediture is nor do we know what their intake is. That difference quickly changes the entire outcome.

Second, what would be the point of eating an excess amount of protein anyways? I guess "if a little is good, then a lot is even better?" Is that the thinking?

Here is the most direct evidence you can find, better than some lab study. What do most people who eat more than they expend look like? We call them fat. Excess energy goes into fat after the muscle glycogen is restored (a trivial amount). Eating more protein doesn't mean that protein is what you get when the body is through with it. A lot of it will go into fat.

Now let's talk about thermodynamic equilibrium....

You can't violate the laws of thermodynamics, whether you eat too much or too little. If you take in excess energy, you store the excess. The energy is still there and none is lost or destroyed. As you gain mass your energy expenditure rises. You continue to gain mass until you reach a fixed point body mass where intake and expenditure are equal again. No laws of thermodynamics are violated. But, you sure look bad at your new equilibrium state because a lot of the gain will be fat.

Yeah it takes a while to get there. And yeah much depends on how much excess energy goes into fat or muscle. But you need quite a lot of fat to carry around before your expenditures equal your intake. So, if you work out you will tend to partition the nutrients into more muscle than fat.

And that's not even including the fact you lose insulin sensitivity, which tends to shift nitrogen retention toward fat rather than muscle, you hit your liver with a lot of nitrogen or ammonia and it starts to adapt in ways not yet understood but can't be good. A lot of other things happen too.

But I don't have any more time to waste here. I'm done here. Believe what you want and drink/eat as much protein as you like.

The info is here. Take it or leave it.

[1buffsob]

First, one of the problems with the studies you posted is that we don't know what they're energy expediture is nor do we know what their intake is. That difference quickly changes the entire outcome.

Second, what would be the point of eating an excess amount of protein anyways? I guess "if a little is good, then a lot is even better?" Is that the thinking?

Here is the most direct evidence you can find, better than some lab study. What do most people who eat more than they expend look like? We call them fat. Excess energy goes into fat after the muscle glycogen is restored (a trivial amount). Eating more protein doesn't mean that protein is what you get when the body is through with it. A lot of it will go into fat. Taken from paragraph 3, word for word!

Now let's talk about thermodynamic equilibrium....

You can't violate the laws of thermodynamics, whether you eat too much or too little. If you take in excess energy, you store the excess. The energy is still there and none is lost or destroyed. As you gain mass your energy expenditure rises. You continue to gain mass until you reach a fixed point body mass where intake and expenditure are equal again. No laws of thermodynamics are violated. But, you sure look bad at your new equilibrium state because a lot of the gain will be fat. Taken from paragraph 7, word for word!

Yeah it takes a while to get there. And yeah much depends on how much excess energy goes into fat or muscle. But you need quite a lot of fat to carry around before your expenditures equal your intake. So, if you work out you will tend to partition the nutrients into more muscle than fat. Paragraph 8.

And that's not even including the fact you lose insulin sensitivity, which tends to shift nitrogen retention toward fat rather than muscle, you hit your liver with a lot of nitrogen or ammonia and it starts to adapt in ways not yet understood but can't be good. A lot of other things happen too. Paragraph 9.

But I don't have any more time to waste here. I'm done here. Believe what you want and drink/eat as much protein as you like.

The info is here. Take it or leave it.

Jesus man. I'm all for a good debate. But when you go and plagiarize other people's words instead of your own, it's no longer a debate.

http://www.arthurdevany.com/archives...odynamics.html

There wasn't a word in your entire post that wasn't plagiarized from this one link. And most of what you said in other parts of this thread is taken from the same damn page. Tell me, do you have your own thoughts on this subject? Or are you just passing off this guy's ideas as your own in an attempt to seem educated?

Your other post, which lead me to believe you somewhat knew what you were talking about, is also plagiarized. FROM THE SAME ****ING PAGE!!!

It is true "excess" protein turns into fat.....

What do most people who eat more than they expend look like? We call them fat. Excess energy goes into fat after the muscle glycogen is restored (a trivial amount). Eating more protein doesn't mean that protein is what you get when the body is through with it. A lot of it will go into fat. Again, word for word, from paragraph 3

Protein pools in the body are excreted as they turn over. The protein pool varies and its size is affected by protein intake, by cell turnover and loss, and by nutrient partitioning into body protein or fat. It has a lot of places to go and you certainly need plenty of it. Word for word, paragraph 5.

I do agree if you are looking to gain muscle, you need protein in excess of what is required for maintenance and to cover losses. One way to do this is to burn fat, with favorable effects on your body composition. This takes GH from a hard work out or from fasting. Word for word, paragraph 13.

Another way to do this is to eat less carbohydrate (which some claim to be "protein-sparing" when it is not). High carbs are actualy muscle wasting, not protein sparing after you take first and second order effects into account. Word for word, paragraph 14.

The best way to do it is to alternate excess protein consumption with light fasting. Of course, you must work out as well. Intermittent excess protein intake is perfectly consistent with our evolutionary past and that is enough to put on plenty of muscle. Too much protein is indeed toxic. Intermittency is protective because it lets you diversify your toxins (simple economics!). Word for word, paragraph 15.

I asked you to restate your point, and provide some sort of logic and/or studys supporting it. What do you do? You regurgitate crap you read off the web and try to pass it off as your own. You're unable to think for yourself, and I have lost all respect for you, as I'm sure many other members have as well. You sir........ are a fraud. To arrogant to admit when you're wrong, and too ignorant to understand why you're wrong.

And for the record, I wasn't attacking you before. I am now....

[Kärnfysikern]

hmmm interesting :/ Lets give usualsuspect a chanse to explain though before hanging him.

[Kärnfysikern]

Either way when looking at the article about thermodynamics and the body from that page. I think its silly to even talk about thermodynamics when dealing with such a complex and adaptable system like the body. I must be sceptical when a professor of economics speak about thermodynamic equilibrium in the body. Its also seems like a missuse of words. Thermodynamical equilibrium simply means that Helmholtz or Gibbs free energy is minimised, that the macroscopic properties(pressure, temperature ect) have ceased to change in time.
None of those apply to the human body. Im going be so bold as to claim that the human body is NOT in thermodynamical equilibrium since we are a completely open system, our temperature changed over the day, our energy expenditure go up and down over the day ect.

This reminds me of how creationists claim life can not appear because of the laws of thermodynamics.

To much protein in particular has a hard time turning into fat like giantz said, it has the highest thermal effect of any food(so In essence it only gives a net gain of 3kcal/gram, 25% of the energy content is used up when processing it). It takes several steps to convert it into anything storable and so on. The body only convertes big ammounts of protein to carbs if its carb depleted. When carb depleted the body will convert as much aminoacids into glucose that it require.

Eating excess protein doesnt cause fat storage as easy as eating excess carbs or excess fat. So imo its smarter to increase kcal by increasing protein. About insuling releaseing insulin , I am not sure to what extent protein by itself release insulin and it would be cool to get a few journal articles to read about that. All I can find is protein in combination with other foods.

Overeating anything is bad, overeating protein is less bad than overeating carbs and fat.

[IBdmfkr]

Wow is all I can say.. Nice find Buff, otherwise we might have kept going on think he knew something about nutrition..

Johan, I'm not sure if an explanation would matter to me at this point.. that is absurd.

[Kärnfysikern]

Wow is all I can say.. Nice find Buff, otherwise we might have kept going on think he knew something about nutrition..

Johan, I'm not sure if an explanation would matter to me at this point.. that is absurd.

yeah its disapointing, I dont like it when people quote without giving credit to who wrote it or trying to pass it off as there own thoughts. But Il like to hear what he has to say anyway.

[brutesinme]

Wow is right. word for word. Don't know what to say.

[1buffsob]

Either way when looking at the article about thermodynamics and the body from that page. I think its silly to even talk about thermodynamics when dealing with such a complex and adaptable system like the body. I must be sceptical when a professor of economics speak about thermodynamic equilibrium in the body. Its also seems like a missuse of words. Thermodynamical equilibrium simply means that Helmholtz or Gibbs free energy is minimised, that the macroscopic properties(pressure, temperature ect) have ceased to change in time.
None of those apply to the human body. Im going be so bold as to claim that the human body is NOT in thermodynamical equilibrium since we are a completely open system, our temperature changed over the day, our energy expenditure go up and down over the day ect.

This reminds me of how creationists claim life can not appear because of the laws of thermodynamics.

To much protein in particular has a hard time turning into fat like giantz said, it has the highest thermal effect of any food(so In essence it only gives a net gain of 3kcal/gram, 25% of the energy content is used up when processing it). It takes several steps to convert it into anything storable and so on. The body only convertes big ammounts of protein to carbs if its carb depleted. When carb depleted the body will convert as much aminoacids into glucose that it require.

Eating excess protein doesnt cause fat storage as easy as eating excess carbs or excess fat. So imo its smarter to increase kcal by increasing protein. About insuling releaseing insulin , I am not sure to what extent protein by itself release insulin and it would be cool to get a few journal articles to read about that. All I can find is protein in combination with other foods.

Overeating anything is bad, overeating protein is less bad than overeating carbs and fat.

Great post.

I have some studys on my other computer about insulin release with protein. The studys show conflicting results though and are both a little flawed IMO. I need to research it a bit more. Giants might have some studys on it though.

[1buffsob]

yeah its disapointing, I dont like it when people quote without giving credit to who wrote it or trying to pass it off as there own thoughts. But Il like to hear what he has to say anyway.

So would I. But I doubt he'll ever show his face in this thread again.

[Giants11]

Great post.

I have some studys on my other computer about insulin release with protein. The studys show conflicting results though and are both a little flawed IMO. I need to research it a bit more. Giants might have some studys on it though.

Oh I'm sure I can dig something up

[1buffsob]

Oh I'm sure I can dig something up

You're the man.

[Chad B]

Off topic, but just a thought…

O how very beautiful it is when I read a writing that is esteemed as one of the greatest in history, to see that the writer remained anonyms. This gives more glory to the writer than to put his name on it.

[usualsuspect]

sorry guys I was hired by an outside company to buzz about Art D's upcoming book release. I can't provide any more details at this moment, but I will do my best to explain my position in full at a later date.

Please consider this my public apology. What is done is done.

[Giants11]

Perhaps this is a start:

"There are some instances, however, where a food has a low glycemic value but a high insulin index value. This applies to dairy foods and to some highly palatable energy-dense "indulgence foods." Some foods (such as meat, fish, and eggs) that contain no carbohydrate, just protein and fat (and essentially have a GI value of zero), still stimulate significant rises in blood insulin."

The New Glucose Revolution (New York: Marlowe and Company, 2003, pages 57-58

[BrokenBricks]

Amino acids like arginine stimulate insulin also and GIP (gastric inhibitory peptide) which is stimulated by literally everything from carbs to fat to protien also stimulates insulin.

Usually, with normal intake of carbs insulin is directly proportional to carb intake ala glucose concentration. That doesnt mean we can avoid insulin by avoiding carbs.

Remember, muscle CANT absorb glucose without insulin while the muscle is resting. Some of us have learned this the hard way by doing cardio and then eating alot of small low card meals and assuming our muscle glycogen stores would be replenished overnight. Not so. Without insulin are muscles are pretty much starving if they dont have glycogen to fall back on. And with cardio on an empty stomach are we going to get glycogen sythesis while doing the excersize? Hell no. And as soon as the excersize is over, and we finally eat, the muscle cant absorb glucose to restore glycogen anyway. What happens? The next day we feel like our muscles are just as weak as they were the day before when we got OFF the bike! We starved them!

Insulin is not the devil. Over eating and lack of excersize is.

One other thing is, protiens, if they are to be turned into fat, wont be turned into glucose first i dont belive. The common intersection of all carb fat and protien metabolism is AcetylCoA. To turn protien into glucose requires going through ACoA, and to go from glucose to fat requires going BACK though ACoA. There is no reason to do that as far as I know and it would be inefficient also becuase of the overall loss of energy of truring ACoA into glucose and then back into ACoA.

[IBdmfkr]

sorry guys I was hired by an outside company to buzz about Art D's upcoming book release. I can't provide any more details at this moment, but I will do my best to explain my position in full at a later date.

Please consider this my public apology. What is done is done.

Good luck with that, but when you site something word for word it's a good idea to give credit to whom wrote it.. otherwise it's called plagiarism bro

Universities expel students for this, so you can imagine what a web forum will do

[Giants11]

Amino acids like arginine stimulate insulin also and GIP (gastric inhibitory peptide) which is stimulated by literally everything from carbs to fat to protien also stimulates insulin.

Usually, with normal intake of carbs insulin is directly proportional to carb intake ala glucose concentration. That doesnt mean we can avoid insulin by avoiding carbs.

Remember, muscle CANT absorb glucose without insulin while the muscle is resting. Some of us have learned this the hard way by doing cardio and then eating alot of small low card meals and assuming our muscle glycogen stores would be replenished overnight. Not so. Without insulin are muscles are pretty much starving if they dont have glycogen to fall back on. And with cardio on an empty stomach are we going to get glycogen sythesis while doing the excersize? Hell no. And as soon as the excersize is over, and we finally eat, the muscle cant absorb glucose to restore glycogen anyway. What happens? The next day we feel like our muscles are just as weak as they were the day before when we got OFF the bike! We starved them!

Insulin is not the devil. Over eating and lack of excersize is.

One other thing is, protiens, if they are to be turned into fat, wont be turned into glucose first i dont belive. The common intersection of all carb fat and protien metabolism is AcetylCoA. To turn protien into glucose requires going through ACoA, and to go from glucose to fat requires going BACK though ACoA. There is no reason to do that as far as I know and it would be inefficient also becuase of the overall loss of energy of truring ACoA into glucose and then back into ACoA.

I agree 100%.

This is just another reason why I think insulin PWO is very overated. Not insulin in general but spiking insulin. You said that that muscles need insulin to absorb glucose at rest.

Well PWO is a different time than any other state you can be in physiglogically, because your workout has already done insulins job.

Insulin helps muscles absorb glucose via GLUT-4 receptors within muscle. Weigh training already increases GLUT-4 permeabilty just as insulin does. So the notion that insulin needs to be spiked well, IMO is inccorrect.


Sorry to highjack your point there but the PWO agrument has sure seen some attention lately, and I think htis info is relevent.